Aquaponics Digest - Wed 02/09/00
Message 1: Re: Aquaponics/hydroponics, was Re: Organic vs. hydroponic
from "Sam Levy"
Message 2: Re: Heating
from Chris Weaver
Message 3: Fw: pump operations
from "Sheik"
Message 4: The ideal business
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 5: system safeguards
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 6: Re: Fw: pump operations
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 7: Selective cooling. Was: The ideal business
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 8: Re: Selective cooling. Was: The ideal business
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 9: Re: Selective cooling. Was: The ideal business
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 10: Re: Selective cooling. Was: The ideal business
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 11: Re: Selective cooling. Was: The ideal business
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 12: Re: Selective cooling. Was: The ideal business
from "TGTX"
Message 13: Mark Brotman
from "Ron Brooks"
Message 14: Re: Mark Brotman
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 15: Re: Fw: pump operations
from "Steve"
Message 16: Re: Fw: pump operations
from "Sam Levy"
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics/hydroponics, was Re: Organic vs. hydroponic
From: "Sam Levy"
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 23:24:29 PST
>
> >there need to be certain safeguards(alarms, back-ups, etc) in your
> >system and somebody needs to be available to take corrective action.
> >When a pump dies, or there's a power failure or fish develop ich(sp?)
> >you had better respond QUICKLY or you're faced with the lovely task of
> >disposing of many pounds of dead fish
> >Adriana
>
>
. Pump
>failure, fish disease, and the response time required to avoid disaster are
>all system-specific scenarios, and the results will depend on the built-in
>safeguards against such problems
adriana-
while you should have safeguards in a system w/living organisms, these can
be simple or complicated as your desire (and purse) allow. among the things
to think about are check-valves (i think they're called in english--a no
return flow device) &/or judicious air holes to prevent the fish tank from
emptying by syphon in the event of a power out, 12 v battery operated
blowers or tank oxygen w/diffusers in place (set to operate when your main
pump or blower stop). water quality problems should not happen overnight if
they're being monitored. diseases are a problem but most will give you some
time for action (you'll see that the fish act ill) & your best resource is
in boning up on what's hitting the neighbors & the treatments and knowing
how quick you can get fish to the nearest diagnostician if need be. in
general, the more balanced the system is &the closer you can keep the
animals to their optimum temp, oxygen, tds , & dissolved waste requirements,
the less likely you're to be troubled by disease (cleaning new water as it's
added to the system also helps).
paula,
since you mentioned feeders, how do you feed your fish? (i"ve always been a
big fan of demand feeders--partly becouse of some the the reasons you
mentioned.
sam
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: Heating
From: Chris Weaver
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 07:39:15 -0500
Our 5600 sq. ft greenhouse is located 45 minutes north east of Toronto,
Canada. The walls of the greenhouse (lexan) have an R-value of only 1.7. We
add approx. 20,000 litres of well water to our system every day at 9 degrees
celcius (~48 F). We use ordinary natural gas pool heaters to heat our water.
The only down side is that our gas bill is about $11,000 U.S. per year.
Recently, we hung 300 feet of 1" poly pipe from the rafters of our greenhouse
and run all of our makeup water through it and the temperature during the day
is increased from 9 degrees to 14 degrees celcius (sorry for the metric). It
is a good experiment and I plan on adding several hundred more feet of hose to
gain more heat.
Sincerely,
Chris Weaver
S & S Aqua Farm wrote:
> From: "Melisa Wennerholm"
> To: "S & S Aqua Farm"
> Subject: Heating
> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:07:33 -0800
>
> Hi
>
> I live in northern Cal. and think that the temps here are a challange
> for aquaponic's. However in reading from all of you there are some far
> colder places.
>
> So if you all could give me some Idea's that you have used to create and
> hold heat both in the water and air it be a big help.
>
> Winter temps here are lows 30 to 40s Highs 50 to 60s.
>
> Also in your systems what kind of D.O. levels are you able to keep, I know
> the importantance of it to the fish is there any to the plants, if so what?
>
> Thank You
> Don
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Subject: Fw: pump operations
From: "Sheik"
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:00:53 -0800
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Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 8:33 PM
Subject: pump operations
Hi, can anyone tell me if i really need a timer for the pump? Or can =
I operate the pump 24 hrs? Do the continuous flow of water affect plant =
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Sheik
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Subject: pump operations
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: The ideal business
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 12:33:51 -0500
> What part of the job keeps you the busiest?
Hi Joel,
It's pretty balanced over the course of the week. Here's a typical
weekly schedule for a volume of 60-80#/week:
Monday-Sunday - Drive to gh and back (3+ hours)
Monday - Clear beds (4 hours)
Tuesday - am: Harvest (4 hours), pm: Deliver (1-2 hours)
Wednesday - Seed beds cleared Monday (4 hours)
Thursday - am: Harvest (2 hours), pm: Deliver (1 hour)
Friday- am: Harvest (4 + hours), pm: Deliver (2 hours)
Sat, Sun: Drive to gh, check nutrient and drippers (2 hours)
Other tasks that are fit in around these are:
Taking orders 3 x per wk, planning - sequencing and coordinating seeding
so you get the right mix at the end, taking inventory/forecasting
production weekly, checking/adjusting nutrient, accounting/billing,
state sales tax reports, bank deposits. In addition, spraying during
buggy times can take up to 3 hours/week. Although I have demand for
more product from my existing customers, I am deliberately restricting
my production to allow me to be home when my kids get home from school.
I also wanted to limit my capital exposure this first year so I only
equipped about 70% of the 3,000 sq. ft greenhouse which I leased.
If you had the money or the time
> - what would you change?
1. Buy a piece of property which is zoned agricultural and build a
greenhouse adjacent to my house. This is much more acceptable in terms
of lifestyle. Right now I drive 20 minutes to the gh which adds up to 4+
hours a week of just driving time. If I had the gh at home I could be
around for my kids but still put some more time in.
2. Build a dream greenhouse which would have a retractable roof to
maximize natural ventilation during moderate weather. Equip the
greenhouse to provide cooling (either through misters or evaporative
coolers) over the summer and make it "bug-tight". My summer yields were
less than half what they were in the spring due to bugs and poor
germination.
2. Add greenhouse capacity and change my product mix: Right now it is
about 50% salad mix, 25% greens )arugula, tatsoi, mizuna, etc. In order
to make decent money I think you need 6,000-12,000 square feet of
greenhouses. This volume of product implies getting employees (or a
partner) and all of the associated headaches. The additional capacity I
would direct toward:
- More products for my 6 restaurants including a greater variety of
herbs and watercress. I could increase the number of restaurant
accounts if I wanted to but by shifting the mix to other products
besides mesclun you can make more money or simplify your operation. I
like dealing with the restaurants and I believe it gives you credibility
in other markets if you maintain a few accounts. It also keeps you
"current" regarding trends. If you're real good you can be the
trend-setter by introducing the chefs to new products. I've enjoyed
that a lot.
- High volume production of between 1-3 greens or herbs that would be
directed to the wholesale market. Arugula is a definite candidate for
this since the quality available through the wholesalers is abysmal that
there is no need to create a market for it.
It's possible that in a decent size city you could do well just selling
top quality basil and arugula to Italian restaurants.
- Good packing space. In the future I would not be surprised if salad
mix growers will need to comply with institutional food
handling/packaging regulations, so I would consider putting in a packing
area which complied with these requirements from the start.
You caught me at a good time to do this analysis. Sunday was the 1-year
anniversary of signing the lease on my greenhouse. I highly recommend
going into leased space during the initial period if you want to limit
your exposure and at the same time learn what you really want/need in
terms of greenhouses and other facilities.
Adriana
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: system safeguards
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 12:49:56 -0500
> while you should have safeguards in a system w/living organisms, these can
> be simple or complicated as your desire (and purse) allow.
Thanks Sam,
I'm filing this one for when I get into the fish side of this.
Adriana
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| Message 6 |
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Subject: Re: Fw: pump operations
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 12:57:42 -0500
Hi, can anyone tell me if i really need a timer for the pump? Or can I
operate the pump 24 hrs? Do the
continuous flow of water affect plant growth?
It depends on your system. I run my pump 24 hours a day.
Adriana
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Selective cooling. Was: The ideal business
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:09:51 -0000
Adriana,
> My summer yields were less than half what they were
> in the spring due to bugs and poor germination.
The germination probs were caused by high temps? I assume that you run
several beds per tank so that you may be germinating seeds and growing
large plants in the same nutrient, making it difficult to just cool the
nutrient in the tank? (When you have fish in the tank, I would imagine
it probably gets beyond difficult.)
One possible solution might be to embed a length of plastic tubing (a
"ladder" configuration is probably best) in the media of each grow bed.
Then, obtain an old fridge and put as large a (closed) container of
water as will fit inside. Put a small pump in the container with a
length of tube attached. Run another piece of tube into the container
for a return. Make a hole in the fridge to bring the tubes and power
cable for the pump to the outside (through the door is probably safest -
leave a loop inside so it still opens easily). Seal hole with silicon or
similar. Put the whole lot on a small trolley so you can easily move it
to the bed you're currently germinating and connect the tubes from the
tank to the one in the bed. Set desired temp and switch on pump.
Although this will only move the heat from the bed to the air in the GH,
the small areas involved should make little impression on overall temps.
Similarly, the main nutrient tank temp shouldn't be affected too much
(depends on how many beds per tank).
An alternative (hydro only - though possibly useful for kick-starting an
aqua grow bed?) to burying the cooling pipe in the media might be to get
a slightly larger cart and add a small nutrient tank/pump which is
cooled by the one in the fridge (or use the container in the fridge
directly as a nutrient tank but probably more hassle to use). If a
selector (ie Y-piece with tap to select which branch is used, or just a
T-piece and two taps.) is added at the nutrient inlet and outlet of each
bed it should be a simple matter to wheel the cart up, connect it via
the spare branches on the Y-pieces and switch the bed out of the main
system until germination occurs.
Just ideas. Hope they're of use.
> Sunday was the 1-year anniversary of signing the lease
> on my greenhouse.
Happy anniversary. :)
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: Selective cooling. Was: The ideal business
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 18:31:17 -0500
> The germination probs were caused by high temps? I assume that you run
> several beds per tank so that you may be germinating seeds and growing
> large plants in the same nutrient, making it difficult to just cool the
> nutrient in the tank?
Actually low yields were due to a combination of lower germination and
"failure to thrive" due to the heat. I have a central nutrient tank so
cooling the nutrient tank would be the way to go.
For plants like lettuce which have severe germination problems in the
heat, as in zero, I have rigged a portable "germination tunnel". I have
a PVC framework covered in clear plastic which goes over the germinating
bed. At one end of the bed, on a rolley-cart, I have a room air
conditioner. It works like a charm!
WARNING TO AQUAPONICS/HYDROPONICS WANNABES: You have to love being a
tinkerer to keep things going; it's a good part of the fun of it.
Adriana
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: Selective cooling. Was: The ideal business
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:37:16 -0000
PS: A car radiator or similar with electric fan might be used instead of
the fridge to cool the water tank (you wouldn't, of course, run the
nutrient itself through the radiator). Water could be sprayed or dripped
onto the exterior of the rad if extra cooling is needed. A temp
sensor/relay might be needed to control the fan but these are cheap,
readily available and easy to use.
Whatever, a mobile cooler of some form (that cools the actual media in
the bed rather than the air around it) might be worth experimenting
with.
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: Re: Selective cooling. Was: The ideal business
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:11:14 -0000
> For plants like lettuce which have severe germination problems in the
> heat, as in zero, I have rigged a portable "germination tunnel". I
have
> a PVC framework covered in clear plastic which goes over the
germinating
> bed. At one end of the bed, on a rolley-cart, I have a room air
> conditioner. It works like a charm!
I remember you mentioned the AC unit but assumed it had proven
unsuitable in some way and the problem ongoing. Glad to hear it was a
problem conquered. :)
How much water does the unit collect in a day? Or do you run what's
collected straight back to the bed? Any idea of how much power (watts/m2
say) this method requires?
Are the problems with your six-legged friends also solved?
Barry
barrythomas@btinternet.com
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Subject: Re: Selective cooling. Was: The ideal business
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 19:20:12 -0500
> How much water does the unit collect in a day? Or do you run what's
> collected straight back to the bed? Any idea of how much power (watts/m2
> say) this method requires?
I don't capture the water, just let it run through the gh floor. As to
power, I can tell you my power bill went up by about $30/month for about
16 days running time/month.
> Are the problems with your six-legged friends also solved?
Shhhhh!!! They're in remission. They don't like the cooler weather
(lows in 50's highs in 70's :>))
Adriana
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: Re: Selective cooling. Was: The ideal business
From: "TGTX"
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:34:43 -0600
> For plants like lettuce which have severe germination problems in the
> heat, as in zero, I have rigged a portable "germination tunnel". I have
> a PVC framework covered in clear plastic which goes over the germinating
> bed. At one end of the bed, on a rolley-cart, I have a room air
> conditioner. It works like a charm!
Has anyone tried the following, instead of refrigerating the ENTIRE growing
bed with an air conditioner after you seed it?
1) Putting the lettuce seed, prior to seeding onto the grow bed, in the
FREEZER, not the refrigerator, for about 24 hours or so? (Just the amount
you are going to seed for that day, not the entire bulk amount that you have
ordered for long term seeding, which should be dry packed in the
refrigerator) Then sprinkling the chilled seed onto the hot bed?
2) Overhead misting of the chilled lettuce seed that has now been sprinkled
onto the grow bed in the greenhouse, with a well designed and custom-timed
overhead mist propagation system, so that evaporative chilling on the
surface of the grow bed takes place frequently enough to encourage lettuce
germination, but not so often that surface molds and fungus gnats develop,
thereby increasing the chances of good germination rates?
3) Selecting varieties that can and do sprout in higher temperatures under
your local conditions in such a way that you can both achieve adequate
germination and the market requirements of a good salad mix?
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| Message 13 |
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Subject: Mark Brotman
From: "Ron Brooks"
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:00:42 -0500
Excuse the way I am trying to get to Mark
Mark I tried to email you from the addy you sent your mail to me
and have gotten an error
The following addresses had transient non-fatal errors -----
Please write me back with one that works :)
Ron
The One Who Walks Two Paths
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| Message 14 |
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Subject: Re: Mark Brotman
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 21:51:25 -0600
At 10:00 PM 02/09/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Excuse the way I am trying to get to Mark
>Mark I tried to email you from the addy you sent your mail to me
>and have gotten an error
>
>The following addresses had transient non-fatal errors -----
>
>
>Please write me back with one that works :)
>
>Ron
>The One Who Walks Two Paths
Ron - he's subscribed to the list at "Mark Brotman"
S&S Aqua Farm, http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 15 |
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Subject: Re: Fw: pump operations
From: "Steve"
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:13:49 -0600
Here is an interesting note on running your pump 24 hrs/day. I had my pump
set for 5 hrs on & 3 hrs off...trying to conserve electricity. Well, I
conserved electricity and almost had 1,000 + dead fish...just caught it in
time...had a DO of 2mg/ltr and they were all sucking air. Needless to say, I
now have it running continuously. ALMOST KILLED ALL OF MY BABIES THAT I
WORKED SO HARD TO GET BIG!!
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: pump operations
>
> Hi, can anyone tell me if i really need a timer for the pump? Or can I
> operate the pump 24 hrs? Do the
> continuous flow of water affect plant growth?
>
> It depends on your system. I run my pump 24 hours a day.
>
> Adriana
>
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| Message 16 |
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Subject: Re: Fw: pump operations
From: "Sam Levy"
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 21:08:29 PST
steve,
you've discovered that 3 hrs off at your current feeding rate is too long an
off time. try this: check DO, turn off pump, check DO every 10-15 minutes
until it drops to 3 ppm, turn the pump on, check every 10-15 mins until you
reach the same level as before you shut down. repeat this procedure early
morning, mid morning, early afternoon, late afternoon, early eveing, night.
you now have an idea of maximum off time and minimum on time for your
current load. i would use 1/2 the off time and add 50 - 100% to the on time
as rough approximation--use the extremes.
decide if the electricity savings are worth it to you. if yes, remember,
you'll still have to monitor as your system load may change.
oh yes, if your running in green water, check DO about an hour before
sunrise.
sam
>From: "Steve"
>
>set for 5 hrs on & 3 hrs off...trying to conserve electricity. Well, I
>conserved electricity and almost had 1,000 + dead fish...just caught it in
>time...had a DO of 2mg/ltr Steve
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