Aquaponics Digest - Sun 04/09/00
Message 1: Re: Thank you Barry
from "beacnhrt"
Message 2: Re: NFT channels
from "beacnhrt"
Message 3: Re: NFT channels
from "beacnhrt"
Message 4: Re: Biodigester email
from "bennett"
Message 5: Re: biodigester
from "fkious"
Message 6: Re: Polycarbonate roof and gutters
from "Loren"
Message 7: Re: Polycarbonate roof and gutters
from "TGTX"
Message 8: Re: NFT channels
from MUDDTOO
Message 9: Sustainable Food Production for a Complete Diet.
from "TGTX"
Message 10: Re: NFT channels
from Raul Vergueiro Martins
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: Thank you Barry
From: "beacnhrt"
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 00:19:20 -0500
Barry,
I believe he was stating that you are not a bully. I would like to thank
you as well for your comments. It is good when people can clearly see the
roots of violence and you do. Yes, gentlemen this type of exchange is
violent even though it was only in words. If you had been in the same
location with the means at hand, who knows what may have resulted. Millions
of people have perished because of such exchanges leading to physical
violence by individuals, groups and by entire populations. Let us please put
this to rest and once again put our minds to constructive thaughts. We all
care about what we are doing here. But more importantly, we care about you.
This anger is not good for you.
If I sound like a preacher it is because I am. So, it looks like you have
had your sermon for the week.
melvin landers
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Thomas
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Saturday, April 08, 2000 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: Thank you Barry
>Ron,
>
>> Dead or not, my statement still stands, and is relevant! My comment
>has
>> nothing to do with the original subject or content of the 'squabbled
>over,'
>> message, but civility in general.
>
>Yes.
>
>> I have an immense dislike for arrogant bullies.
>
>Good.
>
>> I almost never comment on the content of online
>> squabbling but in this case, all of us being civilized,
>> educated, and gentle people, I feel that I had to
>> stand among the counted.
>
>Might I suggest then that you also take issue with the leaders involved
>in any of the (approx) 30 wars currently happening around the planet and
>the rest that merely stand and watch or actively profit? Or, any/all the
>people who use the other 5 billion or so for their own personal gain,
>regardless of the consequences?
>
> Whatever, getting intense about one man writing an overly sharp email
>to another seems something of a waste.
>
>> I'm sure that you do not think of yourself as one of those and I trust
>that
>> you are not.
>
>One of what?
>
>Barry
>barrythomas@btinternet.com
>
>
>
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: NFT channels
From: "beacnhrt"
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 00:35:04 -0500
Well that is the last time I try to get fancy in an email. If you will look
below you can see the text that I was trying to send. I think it is pretty
self explanitory. If anyone needs a diagram, send me your email address and
I will send you one as soon as I get time. Paula I am sorry about the mess.
-----Original Message-----
From: beacnhrt
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Saturday, April 08, 2000 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: NFT channels
>I have permission from an aquaponics co. in the UK to use their design for
>NFT in our own products. I don't think they would mind if I shared it with
>you. But please, if you use it , only use it for your own systems. It is
>simple but effective. I have not done any trials to find out what size
would
>be best for lettuce. They only make tomato systems.
> It consists of a tray that is 10" wide with 2" side walls angled in
> /_____\ ) to hold a piece of heavy gauge black plastic inside in such a
way
>that the edges meet at the top to hold the plant in place I don't Know
>where the plastic can be obtained at retail. But a search of the internet
>should result in suppliers. The metal would have to be bent
>by a machine shop or possibly by a metal siding installer. Or an
alternative
>would be to get some woven wire such as is used >for fencing sheep
pastures and the such. It could be cut with wire cutters and
>carefully bent by hand. Care would have to be taken though, that it was
bent
to lay flat so as not to interupt the flow of nutrient solution. The
inside wires
should run in the same direction as the flow to help prevent this.
Let me know if you have any questions.
>melvin landers
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: NFT channels
From: "beacnhrt"
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 01:54:19 -0500
Raul,
I have no photos. But I will make a diagram and send it to you.
melvin landers
-----Original Message-----
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Saturday, April 08, 2000 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: NFT channels
>
>
>beacnhrt wrote:
>
>> I have permission from an aquaponics co. in the UK to use their design
for
>> NFT in our own products. I don't think they would mind if I shared it
with
>> you. But please, if you use it , only use it for your own systems. It is
>> simple but effective. I have not done any trials to find out what size
would
>> be best for lettuce. They only make tomato systems.
>> It consists of a tray that is 10" wide with 2" side walls angled in
>> /_____\ ) to hold a piece of heavy gauge black plastic inside in such a
way
>> that the edges meet at the top to hold the plant in place I hope my
diagram
>> will give you some idea of what I am talking about.
>>
>> ooo I don't
Know
>> where the plastic can be obtained at retail. But a
>> Plant ----------------------- ooooo search of the internet
>> should result in suppliers. The metal would
>> ooo have to be
bent
>> by a machine shop or possibly by a metal siding
>> Stem with roots below ---- ii installer. Or an
alternative
>> would be to get some woven wire such
>> /ii\ as is
used
>> for fencing sheep pastures and the such. It could be
>> Heavy Ga. plastic -------- / ii \ cut with wire cutters
and
>> carefully bent by hand. Care would have
>> / ^ \ to be
taken
>> though that it was bent to lay flat so as not to interupt
>> / ^^^^\ the flow of
>> nutrient solution. The inside wires should run in the
>> ( ^^^^^ ) same
direction
>> as the flow to help prevent this.
>> Metal tray ------------- /-=====-\
>>
>> Well, for what it's worth there is a simplified view of it. Let me
know
>> if you have any questions.
>> melvin landers
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Peter D. Rau
>> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
>> Date: Friday, April 07, 2000 2:07 PM
>> Subject: NFT channels
>>
>> >Based on all the information I've read here and on some other
hydroponic,
>> >aquaculture, and aquaponic sites, I think it would be a good idea for me
to
>> try
>> >a project at the hobby level first before moving into something bigger.
I
>> have
>> >three aquariums (75, 90, and 110 gallon) that I want to use the
aquaculture
>> part
>> >of the setup. I would like to use NFT as the hydroponic part.
>> >
>> >Does anyone have a good source for NFT channels or instructions for
making
>> them
>> >using supplies available from Home Depot or some place like that? I'd
>> >appreicate any and all information.
>> >
>> >
>
>Hello Melvin:
>
>There are some two or three minutes I sent a messag directly to you.
>What happened with this message with all these symbols?
>Have you any photos of those channels? If so, I woul like to have them.
>Confirm that by mail, and I'll send you my adress for normal mail.
>Thanks.
> Best regards
>
>Raul Vergueiro Martins
>rvm@sti.com.br
>
>
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: Re: Biodigester email
From: "bennett"
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 05:38:46 -0400
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
bennett@frognet.net
-----Original Message-----
From: beacnhrt
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Saturday, April 08, 2000 11:19 PM
Subject: Biodigester email
=20
=20
Bennett,
Craig,
Brian Garcia,
I need your email addresses in order to forward the biodigester =
information to you. I am at beaconhrt@positech.net .
------=_NextPart_000_1323_01BFA1E5.DF979820
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
bennett@frognet.net
-----Original =
Message-----
From:=20
beacnhrt <beacnhrt@positech.net>
To:=20
aquaponics@townsqr.com=20
<aquaponics@townsqr.com>
=
Date:=20
Saturday, April 08, 2000 11:19 PM
Subject: Biodigester =
email
Bennett,
Craig,
Brian Garcia,
I need your email =
addresses in=20
order to forward the biodigester information to you. I am at beaconhrt@positech.net=20
.
------=_NextPart_000_1323_01BFA1E5.DF979820--
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: Re: biodigester
From: "fkious"
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 02:29:31 -0700
fkious@bscn.com
thanks
----------
From: beacnhrt
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Subject: biodigester
Date: Saturday, April 08, 2000 9:13 PM
fkious,
I need your email address as well.
melvin landers
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| Message 6 |
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Subject: Re: Polycarbonate roof and gutters
From: "Loren"
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 03:17:58 -0500
Ted
Have you considered ferro-cement for gutters? I've built structures as
thin as 1/4 inch out of it and used it to put on EPS as thin as 1/8".
Where do you buy polycarbonate sheeting inexpensively enough to use as
glazing. When I've looked at it before it was for a fairing for my
recumbent bike and it was very expensive.
Loren
http://paisite.com/sunlife/index.htm
----------
> From: TGTX
> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
> Subject: Re: Polycarbonate roof and gutters
> Date: Friday, April 07, 2000 9:13 PM
>
> Without a Clue in Texas.
> > >
> > Ted
> > If you are considering a polycarbonate roof on a 30 foot span it may be
> > helpful to consider the arch height versus span width in order to
> calculate
> > your required glazing length. Due to the fact that the longest standard
> > length for polycarbonate is 16 feet you may need to decrease the
> greenhouse
> > span or ridge height to accommodate the length of the glazing. While it
is
> > possible to install more than one length on the roof it will increase
> costs
> > and labor. While on the polycarbonate bandwagon do you need it on the
roof
> > in sunny Texas, will your crop require that much light? I really like
> > polycarbonate for sidewalls here in NM but use double polyethylene on
the
> > roof for cost savings and ease on installation. The polycarbonate
really
> > works well for installation on sidewalls, especially around the door,
> vent,
> > and fan openings.
>
> Well Ron, I want this new aquaponic architectural monument to be novel...
> hansome... and durable for many years...I have done the poly film thing
for
> a number of years, so I thought I would go with the double wall
> polycarbonate route for the beauty, durability , and novelty of the whole
> thing.
>
> > If you went to one of the commercial greenhouse manufacturers and
> > purchased the standard 7 inch wide galvanized gutters you would have a
> good
> > place to walk on......
>
> Yeah, I have done this and bought the gutters and installed them before,
and
> walked along them as the wild winds whipped me and shade cloth and the
poly
> film.... up into the stratosphere for several grand adventures....I was
just
> looking for some alternatives from our recent mechanical engineering
quorum
> poster chittlins that seemed to be snorting and butting heads in recent
> posts....ya' gotta love these guys for holding forth!
>
> > The problem that I can see with using galvanized gutters is the
leaching
> > of zinc into the rainwater. If you absolutely need the water and it has
to
> > be zinc free than a different gutter material may be necessary. I hear
> > people talk about it all the time but have never seen any numbers on
the
> > accumulation of zinc leachate. Has anyone ever seen if this is a
> verifiable
> > problem? Such as how many milligrams/liter does end up in the rainwater
> > after draining off of the gutter, and is this a problem for most
plants?
> > Regarding zinc I have seen a range of values for acceptable
> > concentrations. The Scotts Company water lab states that zinc should be
> > less than 0.4 mg/l. The Texas A&M "Irrigation Water Quality Standards"
> > state zinc levels should be less than 2.0 mg/l for long term use and
10.0
> > mg/l for short term use. I don't know who is right on this issue.
>
> Since zinc is not only NOT BAD, BUT ACTUALLY GOOD for the critters and
> plants and humans at fairly high levels in run off water (it ends up
being
> far far less than that in the final dilution mix I can assure you, since
the
> gutters really don't leach that much in THIS (My)
climate/geography....there
> is still plenty of carbonate dust in the air and in the rain around here
to
> mitigate things, I have seen.....), so, therefore....I am not EVEN
concerned
> about zinc overdose from galvanized gutters collecting rainwater off of
my
> greenhouse.... I did this before and the gutters were galvanized and the
> tanks collected rainwater and the fish and plants did fine...
>
> I just thought I would try to drum up some some fresh American ingenuity
> input from these designing MINDS that have been snarling, snapping, and
> growling at each other.......on the bent pipe approach to the gutter/
hoop/
> upright design thing...
>
> Thanks, Ron and Have a Great Weekend.
>
> Think Rain
>
> Ted
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: Polycarbonate roof and gutters
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 11:59:24 -0500
> Ted
> Have you considered ferro-cement for gutters? I've built structures as
> thin as 1/4 inch out of it and used it to put on EPS as thin as 1/8".
> Where do you buy polycarbonate sheeting inexpensively enough to use as
> glazing. When I've looked at it before it was for a fairing for my
> recumbent bike and it was very expensive.
> Loren
> http://paisite.com/sunlife/index.htm
Well, you know Loren, now that you mention it, I just might go with a cinder
block wall filled with concrete and reinforced with steel rebar, then mount
some oil field pipe arches over that and run a "ferrocement" gutter on the
side, as you say. I still want to walk on that gutter with reasonable ease
and reasonable confidence that it will hold my 200 pound frame in dynamic
motion.
On the polycarbonate glazing cost....well, yes it is pretty expensive, but
as I said before I have tried the poly film on earlier greenhouses and I
just want the best and the best looking and the most durable I can find...I
don't want to have to go back to replace poly film in 5 or 6 years or after
a bad storm......well....maybe I will go with corregated fiberglas glazing
in the final design decision, but I have used that in an attached greenhouse
that I built back in 1993 and I saw the condition of the fiberglas recently.
I wasn't so good. So, if I can afford the polycarbonate, I will go with
it..I think...I still have considerable studying and ruminating to do on
that material.
Thanks for the leads on ferrocement. Looks like I have another garage
project to try in "miniature" before I decide to experiment with it on a
larger scale...Looks like a lot of hard work at full scale, though.
Ted
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: NFT channels
From: MUDDTOO
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:10:16 EDT
The 12 inch spacing works good for me when I grow large lettuce like green
and red leaf, but your right, 6 inches works good too. I'm going to re-drill
mine to 6 inches too and just cap the ones I don't need. Thanks
In a message dated 4/7/00 10:00:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Sunpeer
writes:
> << I used a hole saw to drill holes into the top section
> on 12 inch centers starting the first one 6 inches in from the end >>
> Do you find that spacing satisfactory with the lettuce varieties you grow
?
> I
> space at 6" with "Salina" a Dutch open head and even tighter sometimes
with
> the herbs.
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Sustainable Food Production for a Complete Diet.
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:21:33 -0500
I hope this applies to aquaponics designs and designers. It is a little off
of the mainstream, but here goes.
I have a reprint of an article from HortScience, Volume 25(12), December
1990 entitled "Sustainable Food Production for a Complete Diet" by E. Glenn
and C. Clement of the Environmental Research Laboratory, University of
Arizona, Tucson, and by P. Brannon of the Dept of Food Science and
Nutrition, University of Arizona, Tucson, and by L. Leigh of Space
Biospheres Venture, Oracle, Arizona.
This was a study designed to estimate long term "sustainability" of a home
garden system, and to study the practicalities of producing a complete diet
in a home garden.
The experiment was "conducted in a greenhouse to simulate the continuous
cropping conditions that exist in tropical locations as well as the
conditions that they expected to try to run in the Biosphere II project, and
possible future space habitations."
They looked at a series of balanced diets based on the major food groups,
using USDA Dietary Guidelines. The diet chosen for testing in the garden
was a high-grain vegetarian diet supplemented with one cup per day of goat
milk. The study diet met or exceed the RDA for adult males and females age
23 to 50 for all nutrients except vitamin B12. The calcium content would
hae to be increase for children, pregnant women, and lactating women, and
the iron and vitamin content would have to be increased fro people older
than 50, but they settled on this one diet for the study.
This is where it may have some aquaponics implications (TG):
"Except for rice, potatoes, and dark-green leafy vegetables, the elements of
the diet were grown in a 40 cubic meter lysimeter plot 1meter deep in a
controlled environment greenhouse for 420 days, during which time all the
crops in the diet were grown in proper rotation......The soil was a desert
sandy loam, containing 72.3% sand, 19.9% silt, and 6.9% clay. It was
amended with 2.5% (v/v) peat evenly distributed throughout the soil
profile".
A lysimeter plot is essentially a big container for soil to study nutrient
leaching and water percolation through soils and in ag experiments. I can
see this lysimeter as a kind of variation on McMurtry's sand aquaponics
system (except in this case there is no return flow of water back to the
input source, if you see what I mean). Gordon Watkins may have some
thoughts on this (TG).
Back to the boys in Arizona:
"The cultivation practices were standard organic gardening methods based on
rotations of heavy feeding crops with light feeding crops followed by
alfalfa to restore the soil. Aphids were controlled by releasing ladybird
beetles into the greenhouse and by washing plants. Infected plant material
was composted or destroyed. No pesticides or herbicides were used in the
greenhouse environment during the course of the experiment....No chemical
fertilizers were used."
"Prior to growing the first rotation of crops, 13.5 kg/m^2 of composted
sheep manure was mixed into the top 25 cm of the soil profile. Thereafter,
the only additions to the soil were 1) crop residues grown on the soil, and
2) an amount of chicken manure calculated to contain as much nitrogen as
would be in the feces and urine of a person who ate the food from the
garden. It was assumed inititally that the garden would provide 20% of a
complete diet and the allotment of chicken manure was set at 58 kg/yr based
on 20% of the nitrogen output of a person and 1.1% nitrogen content in
chicken manure. Nine kilograms of chicken manure was added directly to the
soil in the the form of "manure tea" applied to the sweetpotato plot and the
remainder was composed with the crop residues and alfalfa cuttings as they
became available. "
"Rice was grown paddy-style along with azolla in small watertight boxes.
The soil mix was the same as the main bed. 2 crops per year are grown in
the boxes, with azolla turned into the soil between crops as the only
outside input. Potatoes were grown in 0.6 m boxes using the same soil as
the main bed, but supplemented with 20 kg/m^2 of compost between crops (2
per year). Vegetables were also grown in a separate box that received extra
compost prepared from the common allotment given above".
"The average nonsupervisory labor was about 1 hour per day over the course
of the experiment."
"Alfalfa was grown to the maximum extent possible in the (greenhouse)
garden. It was planted in rotation with other crops, in the walkway area
that gave access to the plots, and as an intercrop with the food crops. It
was used as a feedstock for the composter, and simulated the production of
forage for a goat to provide milk".
Summarizing Table 3 in the article the results were the following:
Grains: (Sorghum, Wheat, Oats, Barley, Rice) Total area of 31.7 m^2,
yielded 13.3 kg of grain, for 47,184 kilo-calories (dietary calories)
Legumes: (Cowpeas, Dry bean, Mung Bean, Pigeon Pea) Total area of 21.6 m^2,
yielded 6.7 kg of legumes, for 27,631 kcal.
Starchy vegetables: (Sweetpotato, Squash, Potato) Total area of 8.7 m^2,
yielded 13.5 kg of starchy veggies, for 17,901 kcal.
Oilseeds: (Sunflower, Peanut) Total area of 9.5 m^2, yielded 2.2 kg of
"oilseeds", for 12,287 kcal.
Leafy greens:(Beet greens, Collards, Mustard greens, Parsley, Spinach, Swiss
Chard, Turnip greens, etc.) Total area of 3.4 m^2, yielded 13.8 kg leafy
greens, for 3,726 kcal.
The Grand Total was 74.9 m^2, 47.3 kg "garden produce", for 108,829 kcal.
"Alfalfa produced nearly as many kcal as the edible food. More than 23 kg
of dry alfalfa was harvested, an amount that was more than sufficient to
support the needed level of goat milk production (assuming 2 kg/day of
fodder requirements of a goat producing 4 liters of milk per day)....The
straw from the crops yielded an additional 251,615 kcal, about 25% of which
came from legume crops, and 75% from non legumes. Counting alfalfa, legumes
accounted for 47% of the total kcal of crop production (edible and
non-edible). "
"Soil analyses showed a decline in available phosphate over the experiment;
however, the final level was still considered adequate for crop production.
Organic matter within the root zone remained high, reflecting the return of
compost and crop residues, and nitrate-N levels were sufficient at the end
of the 1st 420 days to re-plant the plots. The soil remained alkaline
throughout the 1st crop cycle and salinity (EC) in the root zone did not
increase, despite the fact that no leachate was produced from the
(lysimeter) bed. "
"The legumes fixed nearly as much nitrogen as was lost from the system".
"The overall photosynthetic conversion efficiency was 0.667%, but the
conversion inot edible food was only 0/157%. A total of 45.5 m^3 of water
was applied (equal to 0.99 m/yr)"
They found that....."even under favorable greenhouse conditions, gardening
for complete nutrition requires 250 m^2 of land under continuous cropping
(this could be achieved by substituting higher-yielding crops for the
unsuccessful ones in the present experiment)."
"The present sustainable garden experiment required much more human input
(compared with other studies cited): approx. 550 minutues/meter^2/year...The
high labor requirement was partially due to the continuous cropping system
and the labor-intensive tasks of hand watering, transplanting, cutting
alfalfa, composting residues, threshing and cleaning seeds and grains, and
growing-out plants for seed production."
"The present cropping plan produced sufficient balanced kcal of food,
despite the failure of some of the major crops, since other crops yielded
above the projections. Given a source of water delivery to the farm, the
sustainable garden does appear to be feasible. The water usage tended to be
high when expressed on a unit/area basis, but water use efficiency was
actually quite high. The fact that no leachate water was produced from the
bottom of the (lysimeter) bed shows that irrigation efficiency was high, and
the use of transplants and tight plant spacings minimized the amount of bare
surface from which water could evaporate."
"Based on the present alfalfa growth rates (3 to 5 g/m^2/day), a goat could
be raised on a 500 m^2 plot devoted entirely to fodder production, or on a
1270 m^2 plot producing complete nutrition (the size required for a family
of four)....."
"Only the oil-crops were disappointing; this may have been due to reduced
light in the greenhouse environment".
That's it folks. I hope this stimulates some thought and discussion about
doing similar kinds of things within an aquaponics greenhouse/integrated
field crop system, using recirculating or re-use aquaculture water as an
additional component to this idea.
And that will be my extent of contributions for a while. Due to greenhouse
building plans and other homestead projects, I must unsubscribe for a while
to focus my mind and body energies on new designs, new prototype/model
building...getting organized for the big year 2000 goals I have in
mind....garage projects I call them, followed by the full scale do-hickies.
Good luck to everyone.
I bid you peace, freedom, and prosperity.
Ted Ground
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: Re: NFT channels
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 19:38:43 +0700
beacnhrt wrote:
> Raul,
> I have no photos. But I will make a diagram and send it to you.
> melvin landers
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Raul Vergueiro Martins
> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
> Date: Saturday, April 08, 2000 11:45 PM
> Subject: Re: NFT channels
>
Thanks Melvin.
I'll be waiting.
Greetings
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm@sti.com.br
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