Aquaponics Digest - Mon 01/11/99
Message 1: Bt seed is good?????
from William Evans
Message 2: Re: Bt seed is good?????
from doelle
Message 3: Re: Bt seed is good?????
from "KevinLReed"
Message 4: Re: Bt seed is good?????
from "Ted Ground"
Message 5: Re: Bt seed is good?????
from William Evans
Message 6: Re: Bt seed is good?????
from William Evans
Message 7: Re: FW: terminator technology
from John Shannonhouse
Message 8: Re: Bt seed is good?????
from William Evans
Message 9: base saturation
from William Evans
Message 10: Re: Bt seed is good?????
from doelle
Message 11: Re: Bt seed is good?????
from doelle
Message 12: Re: Bt seed is good?????
from "Wendy Nagurny"
Message 13: green house aphids
from William Evans
Message 14: Re: Bt seed is good?????
from "Ted Ground"
Message 15: Re: Bt seed /Aphids /Ether
from Dave Miller
Message 16: base saturations
from William Evans
Message 17: Clovers Great fish fodder!
from William Evans
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Bt seed is good?????
From: William Evans
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 00:30:16 -0800
> Transgenic plants that express BT analogues could eliminate this
(pesticide use infered)entirerly.
I take exception.How long before insects gain resistance to the Bt.?
Granted, they (catapillars)do alot of damage.The answer lies in
balancing ous soils , so the plants dont attract insects due to
imbalances and levels of vitality. Spraay a poison , kill a pest, or
look at nutrient levels in the plant and soil and correct the vitality
so as to repel the bug.
Its been proven that healthy crops are affected much less by insect
predation than crops grown in chemically imbalanced/ deficient soils,
IMHO based on many studies.
billevans
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Subject: Re: Bt seed is good?????
From: doelle
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:02:59 +1100
You are not the only exception. I raised the problem before and was hacked
in pieces.
I still maintain that no genetical engineer has as yet come up with the answers:
a) why do they want to engineer anything ?
b) what is the purpose of the work ?
c) are we better off and what guarantee can they give us that no resistancy
develops or any further immun deficiency in humans eating the crop.
I emphasize again that I am not against genetical engineering for medical
pur[poses, e.g. insulin production, antibiotic production etc., but I fail
to see any purpose in crop engineering without conditioning, reviving and
improving soil conditions.
I wonder how our aquaponic friends feel to the suggestion to engineer
tilapia rather than cleaning up the water where the fish lives in.
Waiting for another personal attack of my opinion
best regards
Horst Doelle
At 12:30 AM 11/01/99 -0800, you wrote:
>> Transgenic plants that express BT analogues could eliminate this
(pesticide use infered)entirerly.
>
>
>I take exception.How long before insects gain resistance to the Bt.?
>Granted, they (catapillars)do alot of damage.The answer lies in
>balancing ous soils , so the plants dont attract insects due to
>imbalances and levels of vitality. Spraay a poison , kill a pest, or
>look at nutrient levels in the plant and soil and correct the vitality
>so as to repel the bug.
>
>Its been proven that healthy crops are affected much less by insect
>predation than crops grown in chemically imbalanced/ deficient soils,
>IMHO based on many studies.
>billevans
>
>
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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Subject: Re: Bt seed is good?????
From: "KevinLReed"
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 02:21:57 -0800
Bill,
California farmers do everything possible to improve conditions for the crop
including balancing the soil. To them all controllable conditions that make
for healthy crop are money in the bank. Still between choices of 200,011
tons of anual pesticide use and and BT analogues ( which can be rotated to
prevent pest resistance) I think I would choose the BT.
Kevin
PS Doelle maybe we should start a separate group to discuss trangenic plants
to come up with some solutions. I will participate gladly if not purposely
cast in the role of satan.
-----Original Message-----
From: William Evans
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 12:26 AM
Subject: Bt seed is good?????
Original
>> Transgenic plants that express BT analogues could eliminate this
(pesticide use infered)entirerly.
>
>
>>Bills
>Its been proven that healthy crops are affected much less by insect
>predation than crops grown in chemically imbalanced/ deficient soils,
>IMHO based on many studies.
>billevans
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Subject: Re: Bt seed is good?????
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:14:53 -0600
Bill Evans wrote:
>The answer lies in balancing ous soils , so the plants dont attract
insects due to
> imbalances and levels of vitality. Spraay a poison , kill a pest, or
> look at nutrient levels in the plant and soil and correct the vitality
> so as to repel the bug.
>
> Its been proven that healthy crops are affected much less by insect
> predation than crops grown in chemically imbalanced/ deficient soils,
> IMHO based on many studies.
> billevans
Now this is scary. Let's see if I can retrace this. The more "balanced"
and "vital" the soil, -whatever that could possibly mean- the more
nutritious and healthy the plant, and the less likely insects will be
attracted and feed on healthy plants.
Only sick plants get devoured- sort of like weak and frail caribou are
culled from the herd by the wolf- Or should I say, our planet brother, the
wolf. Right?
Now, let's see here, that means that on my organic farm with all it's
organic compost, deep prairie soils, and organic mulch, the grasshoppers
really did not eat everything growing in the dirt last summer, and the
aphids in my organically certified greenhouse did not devastate certain
varieties of salad greens- while leaving other varieties, growing in the
very same bed, untouched. That was just my imagination. Or perhaps it
really did happen, but my soil vibes were not vital and balanced enough.
I can accept that healthy plants will recover better from insect
infestation more readily than plants subject to specific mineral
deficiencies, or water stress, or plant pathogens, inadequate light,
temperature shock, etc.. For one thing, the "healthy" plants should be
more capable of producing those secondary products of plant metabolism that
inhibit insect predation. Those plant biochemicals are toxic, mutagenic,
carcinogenic, or just taste bad to the bugs that try to chew, suck, or
burrow into the plant tissue. This is a subject that makes many Gaia
worshippers stammer and excuse themselves from the room. Yes folks, the
naturally occuring plant compounds that our favorite vegetables produce to
inhibit insect predation are ones that we eat everyday and ones that are
far more toxic than the Alar residues that the Greenpeaceniks rip their
togas in great angst over. Look, I am an organic farmer and I am no fan of
Alar or any of that stuff. Don't use it. Don't need to. On the other
hand, I am a scientist and I know that nature itself is not a Norman
Rockwell painting, nor does it line up with the Findhorn - Rudolph Steiner
psuedomystical party line.
One thing is clear: insects can and do eat certain varieties of very
healthy plants and leave others growing right beside them alone- regardless
of soil "balance", "vitality" or "etheric vibration". I suspect the aphid
devastation of only certain varieties in my greenhouse had more to do with
the sulfur containing amino acids and other biochemicals in those varieties
(Tat soi and Mizuna for example are favorite aphid foods), causing them to
be infested due to attractive biochemical components, rather than the
repulsive biochemical components of the plants that went untouched. Or, it
could have been a combination of both attraction and repulsion, but the
take home message is that it had more to do with plant biochemistry and
therefore plant genetics (the instruction code for biochemical production)
than the relative proportion or quantity of nutrients available to the
plants.
Nature plays this insect-plant warfare game all the time, so I am not
against "us", that is "Science", using hard earned knowledge of plant
biochemistry and plant breeding and genetics in a responsible,
well-studied, comprehensive manner to benefit agriculture. If folks are
scared of that, then they must be scared of Nature itself - which is O.K.
within reason, since Nature is a very tough neighborhood. But I think we
should face the facts, be honest and be logically consistent.
Live long and prosper.
Ted
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Subject: Re: Bt seed is good?????
From: William Evans
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:59:39 -0800
... it seems to go after a "symptom" , instead of after a cure.
I still believe that p art of the result of such breeding (or even just
general hybridization), leads to new strains whose greatest claim to
fame is that ; it grows big/it bulks out...of course it's also able to
handle all those great chemical ferts as well..at the predicted yield.
Nutrient analysis for the most part is not stressed.If it is visually
ok, and it falls in line as far as protein, imho, it will pass at the
going rate(($)).I think prices in grain commodities have turned a few
in the trade for a loop.huh?Its hard to make a go of it.they fail.but
hey that's business..
from another angle,
on an adjacent acreage..
....farmer Bill(who likes to do things the old fashion way) start to
plant a field w some great open pollinated corn seed...
Now in this scenario , one must assume that both plots of land start out
healthy, as well as having the same load of nutrient ...uno "same dirt"
in both plots.
IMHO , nutrient analysis will show greater protein content, more
vitamins, minerals as well, in farmer Bill's corn..than the hybrid
plot.The quality of our feeds has shifted down in protein and up in
carbohydrate. Hence the development of protein supplementation to offset
the deficiency in the feed.
billevans
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Subject: Re: Bt seed is good?????
From: William Evans
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:08:25 -0800
vitality ... refered to mineralization..specifically concerned with base
saturation levels of Ca/Mg...as well as others...Anybody out there ever
read William A. Albrecht?
i partake of no ether.
billevans
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Subject: Re: FW: terminator technology
From: John Shannonhouse
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:48:01 -0600
Hello,
Answering variopus posts:
<>
Nonsense. Several other companies are developing functionally
analagous "second generation sterility" systems. A European company already
has. I have heard that Dupont is also developing one. Monsanto will not be
the sole heir to the world seed market.
Their will be several behemoths fighting for the world's seed
markets. The major seed companies will still dominate, which may be a
detrimental development. How large of a change this will be from what will
happen without terminator-type technologies? From what I have read, major
seed companies have already forcibly dominated many world markets and are
working on others.
The problem of how to prevent farmers from propogating single-locus
traits on their own, thus reducing the value of their product (possibly
below profit margin) is an old one. It has been talked about ever since
transgenic crops were envisioned. Terminator-type systems were conceptually
visualized a long time ago. I am frankly more than a little surprised that
people didn't know about this from as long ago as farmers first started to
talk about the possibility of "one day" having transgenic crops.
<>
It is difficult to say whether or not Bt crops will be worth the
cost and effort. Resistent varieties probably exist already since Bt
already exists in nature, but they are not so prevalent because Bt is not
exteremely common. Resistent varieties will probably proliferate rapidly.
That does not necessarily mean that the Bt crops will become useless. Even
the resistent bugs might do worse eating the Bt crops than non-Bt crops.
<>
This is already done in fish breeding. For example, many European
carp farmers have replaced their European mirror carp varieties with a
hybrid of the European mirror and the Chinese big-belly variety that grows
well in the waters that decreased in quality as carp farming became more
intensive. This, of course, does nothing to answer your idea that GE is
unnecessary, but it is common to build better fish rather than building a
better environment for them.
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Subject: Re: Bt seed is good?????
From: William Evans
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:36:55 -0800
Hey Ted dont be so quick to discount hocus pocus that isnt, that being ,
healthy crops grown on balanced soils (again looking at base saturations
of Ca , Mg at the start) are less atractive to pests.
Read Albrecht, if you want a better understanding; he'll explain it
better than I. There are exceptions to every rule, but ,there is also
evidence that supports this concept IN GENERAL and its based on real
physics and not some stories of "ether" made in a cow horn.
billevans
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Subject: base saturation
From: William Evans
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:46:13 -0800
Neal Kinsey as well ,explains soil balancing. Were talkin amendments
added to the soil,,no heyoronreymus meters,cow horns or tarot cards.
ps
or drumming
William Evans wrote:
>
> Hey Ted dont be so quick to discount hocus pocus that isnt, that being ,
> healthy crops grown on balanced soils (again looking at base saturations
> of Ca , Mg at the
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Subject: Re: Bt seed is good?????
From: doelle
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:02:04 +1100
Kevin,
I would be delighted to participate in a separate discussion on transgenic
plants etc etc.
I also like to proof that I am not the devils advocate.
Best regards
Horst Doelle
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Subject: Re: Bt seed is good?????
From: doelle
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:20:29 +1100
Well Ted, that has certainly be a good lecture. But be honest is as biased
towards your opinion as the others report. That is human.
I agree with most of what you say, BUT who says that an organic farmer does
everything right ??? I have seen organic farmers throwing everything from
manure to biomass on their soil, and wondering why the yield went down. Of
course, organic poisoning. You can also easily overfeed a soil and thus
obtain the reverse.
Nature has established a perfect balance in the cycles of matter. As long as
we ignore these in our sciences, we will not succeed.
The trouble is often with at least some scientists, that they want more and
thus interrupt the cycle.
You have to study and improve the soil microflora, which is totally
responsible for the growth and health of our plants. We have to improve
their performance through proper fertilisation [not overfeeding], tilling
[bring air into the soil] and put the correct plants into the soil. I have
seen many soils being almost killed by organic fertilisation as is done with
pesticides.
For example, here in Australia we have large areas where salt has become a
severe problem through deforestation and automated farm management. You
cannot restore these soils simply by organic farming. You have to take care
of the salt, which you can - if you want to - by planting certain trees
[Eucalyptus varieties] in certain amounts and farm in-between.
What I want to say is, we have to study more nature's cycle and improve its
performance. so we are getting healthier plants.
On the other hand insects etc also have to live in Nature and thus it would
be silly to think we can make everything resistant to every insect etc. What
will happen to Nature ? If we do not have food for insects we have no birds.
I think we are getting a bit too greedy with our farming and expect to have
a 100% crop recovery. Let the insects live to be able to listen to the
beautigul birds.
My question to you, aren't we going too far sometimes and can't enjoy the
forrest because of too many trees ?
Horst Doelle
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Subject: Re: Bt seed is good?????
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:44:52 -0500
>Now this is scary. Let's see if I can retrace this. The more "balanced"
>and "vital" the soil, -whatever that could possibly mean- the more
>nutritious and healthy the plant, and the less likely insects will be
>attracted and feed on healthy plants.
>Only sick plants get devoured- sort of like weak and frail caribou are
>culled from the herd by the wolf- Or should I say, our planet brother, the
>wolf. Right?
This is basically correct. The sick and weak plants are devoured first.
>
>Now, let's see here, that means that on my organic farm with all it's
>organic compost, deep prairie soils, and organic mulch, the grasshoppers
>really did not eat everything growing in the dirt last summer, and the
>aphids in my organically certified greenhouse did not devastate certain
>varieties of salad greens- while leaving other varieties, growing in the
>very same bed, untouched. That was just my imagination. Or perhaps it
>really did happen, but my soil vibes were not vital and balanced enough.
When the menu is limited, insects will eat whatever is there. I have never
had a problem with aphids on any variety of lettuce in my garden, but then
there was always a supply of roses at my neighbors house to lure them over
there. THEY had problems with aphids. I have a problem with box elder bugs
on my box elder trees. These bugs are normally very specific in their
feeding. Normally they are found exclusively on female box elders and on
the females of one type of maple. But now it is winter, and the box elders
are dormant, so these stupid bugs have moved into my house and now they are
feeding on all my house plants, banana, purple velvets, and Norfolk Island
Pine alike. You know the saying, "Any port in a storm." If you have a
problem with aphids on your greenhouse lettuce, try keeping a few roses in
your greenhouse then spray THEM for aphids.
Wend
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Subject: green house aphids
From: William Evans
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:55:58 -0800
or grow some watermelon w/ miracle grow or marigolds even,have had sever
infestations in years past so possible
"trap "plant.
.any forced new growth will usually be good enough(bad enough) for the
aphids.
might also suggest trying one of various kelp foliar sprays on market. I
think possible to raise brix above a level that their little bellies can
tolerate..spray off bulk of them with plain water prior to foliar
....kinda like the old pepto bismol commercial..to much rich food..burp
and the runs.billevans
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Subject: Re: Bt seed is good?????
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:11:46 -0600
> Hey Ted dont be so quick to discount hocus pocus that isnt, that being ,
> healthy crops grown on balanced soils (again looking at base saturations
> of Ca , Mg at the start) are less atractive to pests.
> Read Albrecht, if you want a better understanding; he'll explain it
> better than I. There are exceptions to every rule, but ,there is also
> evidence that supports this concept IN GENERAL and its based on real
> physics and not some stories of "ether" made in a cow horn.
> billevans
O.K., Bill. Sounds fair.
But I hope I was neither being quick nor discounting what you had to say-
(O.K. I was having a bit of fun there with the Steiner thing- I couldn't
help it).... I was just pointing out my experience which indicates that
insect infestation is not based on nutrient status alone. Insects WILL EAT
healthy plants. That is what they are built for. And plants are built to
resist or survive that somewhat....Now, these are just facts of nature,
regardless of whether one wishes to label my account as a "lecture" or
not..
Also, Wendy, you might have misunderstood my earlier post, perhaps. I did
not mean to indicate that I had aphid problems with my lettuce. I had
aphids infesting Tat Soi and Mizuna, (a cruciform and a mustard - and that
was only during the summer- not now). At the same time that the lettuces
went untouched by the aphids, the caterpillars (cabbage loopers, as I
recall ) snuck in and grazed on some of the lettuce varieties. Perhaps this
difference in the type of pest infestation was due to the opiate compounds
in lettuce that aphids cannot handle, but the caterpillars can. Aphids may
be opium light weights, which, like heroin junkies, just dont eat after a
while- although I detected no aphid damage whatsoever on the lettuces.
Whereas caterpillars, like the hookah smoking caterpillar in Alice's story,
are beasts of a different constitution. Anyway, I was trying to point out
that different varieties of plants with the same nutrient substrate can be
visited with widely different insect problems- and widely different types
of pests. The aphids caused major damage to the TatSoi and Mizuna, whereas
the caterpillars caused only very little damage to the lettuce, but the
Twain never met in the middle. Is this a classic case of resource
partitioning in an agriculture ecosystem or what?
But, O.K. Bill, send me toward some of Albrecht's books. Watcha got? I
will check it out. I will say this at the outset. Based on my
acquaintaince with the wide varieties of soil types just here in Texas, I
know that our native soils vary widely in their Ca, Mg, K, SO4 and Na
ratios (generally corresponding to east to west trend of climate gradient),
not to mention pH, iron, silica, etc. Yet these different soil types with
widely different geochemistries support not only their own native
vegetation, but agricultural crop production as well. I admit some soils
do that "better" than others, if yield and crop quality are the measuring
sticks.. If you see what I mean.
Could you elaborate, please, on your point about base saturations of Ca and
Mg? Let's discuss this a little further. Sounds interesting.
Thanks.
Ted
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Subject: Re: Bt seed /Aphids /Ether
From: Dave Miller
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:40:55 -0500
Ted, Kevin, Horst, Bill, Wendy, John and the rest of the group,
Wait a minute, I do drum in the spring in my outdoor organic gardens. I
give a tour and friends celebrate the earth. This vibration has been
know to bring earthworms to the surface (true - no ether)!
I test and correct my soil but mostly I compost with non-animal sources,
household scraps and tons of leaves. Occasionally an eggshell makes its
way in.
This year was the first that aphids attacked my brassicas (norinosa),
mustard greens, my brocolli yet my tomatoes (acid free) were alongside
and not touched. Same soil, same location.
Oh Ted, this from OG magazine (Rodale), a study at Cambridge says to
plant subterranean clover (Trifolium subterraneum) around your brassica
to deter cabbage loopers/moths by 90%; deters aphids, root flies and
several other pests as well. White clover (T repens) should also work
and they of course are nitrogen fixing so this must be taken into
account.
I'm gonna try it this year!
Now as to the terminator seed saga, a paper which lays out details in
simple language can be found at:
http://www.bio.indiana.edu/people/terminator.html
Bt resistant plants are safer than heavy pesticides but even using IPM
techniques, the use would still be limited with preference for more
harmonious means like improving the soil, crop rotation, interplanting
with crop that attracts beneficial insects.
REMEMBER: pesticides drift, Bt resistance cross pollinates, trangenic
traits escape, Terminator traits drift. It is like living in an
apartment complex where neighbors have affairs, some sell drugs and some
people smoke cigarettes and the neighbors must all share and breathe the
same polluted environment only at the level of the lowest intelligence
and spirituality. So why should corporate greed be any different?
Dave
_______________________________________
«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
A "green" home remodeler
A father of 2 cockatiels
An organic farmer
A veggie drummer/keyboardist
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Subject: base saturations
From: William Evans
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:50:43 -0800
Sounds delightful,and intriguing. Sounds like you have a fair
understanding of plant chemistry Ted...Ponder this while I brush
up...could it be that plants, when grown in unbalanced soils ,tend to
put out more ( of those natural carcinogens you eluded to)
in response to insect infestation??? I think that would be an
interesting study...
let me dust off my volumes...gimme some time.
if ya wanna get hands on a few volumes check U of Missouri.. He was
soils gent their going back 50 + years. Also ACRES USA
which IMHO is a great rag, sells the books directly. acres po 9547
Kansas City , MO 64133
ISBN 0-911311-18-1
Lib of Congress #88-82608
in ref to "The Albrecht Papers, Hidden lessons in Unopened Books"
there are three volumes I believe. Also Books by Neal Kinsey are based
on his research...
billE
> Could you elaborate, please, on your point about base saturations of Ca and
> Mg? Let's discuss this a little further. Sounds interesting.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Ted
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| Message 17 |
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Subject: Clovers Great fish fodder!
From: William Evans
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:58:09 -0800
Just invented a genetiic cross between lungfish and
tilapia..Question:How high should barbwire be strung round the pasture
to keep the tilapia on the range and protected from the coyotes???? Is
this really aquaponics? Im really amused..
> Oh Ted, this from OG magazine (Rodale), a study at Cambridge says to
> plant subterranean clover (Trifolium subterraneum) around your brassica...
> _clovers and other legumes hav definite ratios of ash elements that they
prefer..If not in correct proportions, your cover crop might bulk out , but
not measure up when it comes to protein.,,possible to get a net decrease in
N even when tilled under.
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