Aquaponics Digest - Wed 01/20/99
Message 1: No subject given
from "Ed Franklin"
Message 2: Re: Tomato Varieties
from Gordon Watkins
Message 3: Re: Salmonella in alfalfa seed from single source
from "Ted Ground"
Message 4: Germ Theory II
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 5: Internet Message
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 6: greywater processing (was "lava gravel")
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 7: Re: Tomato Varieties
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 8: Re: Tomato Varieties
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 9: Germ Theory II
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 10: nutrition
from William Evans
Message 11: Re: Germ Theory II
from "KevinLReed"
Message 12: Re: Tomato Varieties
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 13: Re: Germ Theory III
from Dave Miller
Message 14: RE: Germ Theory II
from "Donna Fezler"
Message 15: RE: Salmonella in alfalfa seed from single source
from "Donna Fezler"
Message 16: RE: Germ Theory II
from "Donna Fezler"
Message 17: Re: Tomato Varieties
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 18: Re: Internet Message
from "Ted Ground"
Message 19: Re: Germ Theory II
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 20: Re: greywater processing (was "lava gravel")
from jilli and lars
Message 21: Salmonella, Alfalfa, Shamanic Secrets and Aquaponic X files.
from "Ted Ground"
Message 22: Re: Salmonella, Alfalfa, Shamanic Secrets and Aquaponic X files.
from Gordon Watkins
Message 23: Re: Salmonella, Alfalfa, Shamanic Secrets and Aquaponic X files.
from "Jim Sealy Jr"
Message 24: Re: Salmonella, Alfalfa, Shamanic Secrets and Aquaponic X files.
from Marc
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:26:23 -0600
Jim, I take it from this and your previous posting that you've found that
determinate varieties are more suitable for your aquaponic system than
indeterminates. In the literature I've seen, indeterminates are invariably
recommended for greenhouse production. Can you explain why your experiences
contradict this? Perhaps because you're growing outdoors and not in a
greenhouse? Determinates are certainly much easier to deal with in confined
spaces as well, I'm sure, as in a rafted system like yours.
Gordon
"James Rakocy, Ph.D." wrote:
> >Thanks for the info Jim. What varieties are you using now?
> > Gordon
>
> We are growing three tomato plants of each of the following varieties:
> Bonita, Olympic, Duke, Empire, Joker, Liberty, Celebrity, Colonial,
> SunMaster, Flora, Pilgrim and Merced. All are determinant varieties of big
> red tomatoes. One plant of each variety is planted in each of three
> recirculating systems. Jim R.
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: Salmonella in alfalfa seed from single source
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:36:37 -0600
In the last chapter and verse, we learned:
> Washing may help, but who washes the food so thorouvghly before eating ?
Is it not much more convenient to tell those 'expert' in the agricultural
field to stop using manure as organic fertiliser ?
>
> Do we really have to get an epidemic first before people are listening ?
>
> I have not given up hope, but are surprised with what laxity people
looking at recycling.
>
> I hope you get your alfalfa seeds clean.
>
> Best regards
>
> Horst Doelle
Horst, uh, what seed is that? What manure are you talking about? What
experts?
In short -what in the world are you talking about?
I am now more confused than usual. Once again here, we seem to be seeking
out and finding new misunderstandings where no one has gone before!
Sometimes I wonder how meaning gets lost as often as it does- like socks in
the laundry- disappearing without a trace.
Perhaps we can parlay this discussion, if you can call it that, into some
humor and get back to aquaponics, so let me try. You've heard the popular
tune "Dueling Banjos"? Now it's--- "Monty Python's Dueling Non-Sequitors".
Question: How many absurdists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Answer: A cup of fur.
Are we on Siddhartha's road to seeing the big picture now? Ah,
non-sequitors! They do have that aftershave slap in the face, first thing
in the morning, kind of effect! Kind of like the old Zen koans, or like
the crack of the master's cane over the unsuspecting apprentice's head, or
spilling hot coffee in your lap. Trouble is, it seems the result all too
often is not Enlightenment, but a concussion or at least a sore noggin.
Old Mr. "Call me Sid" Hartha ended up on the riverbank dazed and wearing a
perpetual smile- Consciousness or Concussion?
Should we archive this with the Sod Yurt epic? Or better yet, let it go the
way of the socks in the laundry?
DaDa!
Ted
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: Germ Theory II
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:21:20 -0500
Horst,
We really appreciate your admonitions to excercise extreme care
when dealing with manures in food production.
I am reading a fascinating article in the February issue of The
Atlantic Monthly which indicates that there is a strong link
between heart disease and bacterial infections. Another disease
which is under investigation for an infectious link is
Alzheimer's disease. The primary researcher, Dr. Paul Ewald,
professor of biology at Amherst College, draws his germ theories
from Darwinian evolutionary findings. Are you familiar with his
work?
Adriana Gutierrez, Sarasota, Fl.
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: Internet Message
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:22:57, -0500
Dear Ted
Thanks for the info to wash sprouts even after they've sprouted to
get rid of salmonella. I am just about to get sprouting back into
our nutrition routine and probably would have poisoned the whole
famdamily. I'm one of the Duh people who forgets to wash supposedly
organic food.
Best to you
Jean,
a sprouting aquaponiker
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| Message 6 |
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Subject: greywater processing (was "lava gravel")
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:27:33, -0500
Dear Lars
What is your source of Taro seed? Does anyone know a source of wild
rice seed?
Jean
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:24:44, -0500
Jim
I just entered the conversation and haven't started my aquaponic
project yet, either. What area of the country do you grow these
varieties? I am from Olympia WA.
Jean
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:33:47, -0500
I'm new to aquaponics and haven't introduced myself yet because I'm
not sure what level I'm going into it at. But could someone explain
to me the meaning of determinate varieties which Gordon's email says
is more suitable for aquaponic system than indeterminates? Thank you
very much. I find this email subscription fascinating. Thank you
Tom and Paula Speraneo.
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Germ Theory II
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:42:05, -0500
Adriana,
Is the point of the article saying sufferers of heart disease and
Alzheimers are being selected out in an evolutionary fashion, because
they did something unadaptive like not wash their food? That would
be real interesting. I have a friend from Holland who says Americans
compared to Europeans, keep their health environment so sterile that
we are weakening our resistance for when we do come into contact
with germs.
Jean
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: nutrition
From: William Evans
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:03:37 -0800
Our bodies are crapping out cause of too many processed foods, and crops
grown on depleted /poisoned soils...its all about nutrition(or lack of
it) leading to weakened immune systems and disease...Then, maybe the
bacteria come in and finnish us off; they sense that we are something to
be eliminated, just as pests go in and destroy UNHEALTHY crops, while
truly healthy crops grown on balanced (mineral wise) remain largely
unaffected.
billevans
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: Re: Germ Theory II
From: "KevinLReed"
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:04:12 -0800
Jean,
My American son has been through pre-school the greatest den of infection
outside of the third world ( read downtown Los Angeles or anywhere London)
If he can survive this Alzhiemers does not have a chance on him.
Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: MS JEAN R SHAFFER
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 9:44 AM
Subject: Germ Theory II
>Adriana,
>
>Is the point of the article saying sufferers of heart disease and
>Alzheimers are being selected out in an evolutionary fashion, because
>they did something unadaptive like not wash their food? That would
>be real interesting. I have a friend from Holland who says Americans
>compared to Europeans, keep their health environment so sterile that
>we are weakening our resistance for when we do come into contact
>with germs.
>
>Jean
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:13:30 -0400 (AST)
>Jim
>
>I just entered the conversation and haven't started my aquaponic
>project yet, either. What area of the country do you grow these
>varieties? I am from Olympia WA.
>
>Jean
>
St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands
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| Message 13 |
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Subject: Re: Germ Theory III
From: Dave Miller
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:15:49 -0500
I say you can't die before you eat a pound of dirt. Natural antibiotics
Best germ fighter there is......Gets you out of housecleaning. Yeah, I
can be a duh person too.
Dave
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| Message 14 |
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Subject: RE: Germ Theory II
From: "Donna Fezler"
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:04:52 -0600
Take these conjectures with a grain of salt. They are looking at the
problem through myopic glasses, blaming the germ on the symptoms instead of
recognizing that the germs are attempting to balance the problem or
opportunists in an immune compromised host. This is NOT evolutionary
biology. This is just an extension of the germ theory of disease which will
not hold up in the toxin laden 21st century.
The double blind clinical trial for reversing the symptoms of fibromyalgia,
an untreatable autoimmune disorder starts in 2 weeks. The method will
involve detoxification and nutritional supplementation. Since we have seen
the method used for two years now, I doubt there will be any surprises
except to the medical community that has pronounced this disorder
untreatable.
This is an explanation of Darwinian medicine as I have it in my patent.
http://www.rhealiving.com/Discovery%20Story.htm#Darwinian Medicine
Donna Fezler
-----Original Message-----
From: aquaponics [SMTP:aquaponics]
On Behalf Of Adriana Gutierrez
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 10:21 AM
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Subject: Germ Theory II
Horst,
We really appreciate your admonitions to excercise extreme care
when dealing with manures in food production.
I am reading a fascinating article in the February issue of The
Atlantic Monthly which indicates that there is a strong link
between heart disease and bacterial infections. Another disease
which is under investigation for an infectious link is
Alzheimer's disease. The primary researcher, Dr. Paul Ewald,
professor of biology at Amherst College, draws his germ theories
from Darwinian evolutionary findings. Are you familiar with his
work?
Adriana Gutierrez, Sarasota, Fl.
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| Message 15 |
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Subject: RE: Salmonella in alfalfa seed from single source
From: "Donna Fezler"
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:15:13 -0600
Ted
What are you smoking and can you share it?
Donna
-----Original Message-----
From: aquaponics [SMTP:aquaponics]
On Behalf Of Ted Ground
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 9:37 AM
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Subject: Re: Salmonella in alfalfa seed from single source
In the last chapter and verse, we learned:
> Washing may help, but who washes the food so thorouvghly before eating ?
Is it not much more convenient to tell those 'expert' in the agricultural
field to stop using manure as organic fertiliser ?
>
> Do we really have to get an epidemic first before people are listening ?
>
> I have not given up hope, but are surprised with what laxity people
looking at recycling.
>
> I hope you get your alfalfa seeds clean.
>
> Best regards
>
> Horst Doelle
Horst, uh, what seed is that? What manure are you talking about? What
experts?
In short -what in the world are you talking about?
I am now more confused than usual. Once again here, we seem to be seeking
out and finding new misunderstandings where no one has gone before!
Sometimes I wonder how meaning gets lost as often as it does- like socks in
the laundry- disappearing without a trace.
Perhaps we can parlay this discussion, if you can call it that, into some
humor and get back to aquaponics, so let me try. You've heard the popular
tune "Dueling Banjos"? Now it's--- "Monty Python's Dueling Non-Sequitors".
Question: How many absurdists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Answer: A cup of fur.
Are we on Siddhartha's road to seeing the big picture now? Ah,
non-sequitors! They do have that aftershave slap in the face, first thing
in the morning, kind of effect! Kind of like the old Zen koans, or like
the crack of the master's cane over the unsuspecting apprentice's head, or
spilling hot coffee in your lap. Trouble is, it seems the result all too
often is not Enlightenment, but a concussion or at least a sore noggin.
Old Mr. "Call me Sid" Hartha ended up on the riverbank dazed and wearing a
perpetual smile- Consciousness or Concussion?
Should we archive this with the Sod Yurt epic? Or better yet, let it go the
way of the socks in the laundry?
DaDa!
Ted
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| Message 16 |
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Subject: RE: Germ Theory II
From: "Donna Fezler"
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:19:09 -0600
The Europeans are half right. We are trashing our immune systems with all
those "better living through chemistry" products.
Could well be a combination of both.
(Duck Donna, duck! Here comes Ted!)
Donna Fezler
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| Message 17 |
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Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:28:40 -0400 (AST)
Gordon, space in outdoor systems is not at such a premium as it is in
greenhouses. When you train to one stem outdoors, the winds really whips the
plant and puts a lot of pressure on the base. In sharp gravel it can girdle
the stem and eventually kill the plant. We used collars. Also light
intensities are higher outside (better for determinants with their heavy
foliage) and high humidity is not such a critical factor as in greenhouses.
Trained plants allow better ventilation in greenhouses. In any event we
obtained the same production per unit area with either indeterminants
trained or dertermants not trained (bush). The labor involved in training a
plant is substantial, so we elect not to do this and avoid the fruit
cracking problem as a bonus. I'm sure that training plants to one two stems
is the best method for a greenhouse. Jim R.
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| Message 18 |
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Subject: Re: Internet Message
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:01:36 -0600
Jean,
I don't grow alfalfa of any kind, and right now, I don't grow any sprouts
of any kind, although I have in the past for my own consumption. I merely
relayed a news report that I recently received about the salmonella
outbreak traced to the alfalfa seed from Dutch sources, or perhaps a single
Dutch source....because Adriana had mentioned it as a word of caution in
connection with our recent discussion on the possibility of feeding sprouts
to our fish. Thank you, Adriana, for that info, by the way.
I did not mean to suggest that all sources of alfalfa seed, or that any
kind of seed commonly used for sprouting is so contaminated.. Apparently
only some is, (I think that is very obvious based on the consumption rate
in this country,
at least) and at this point, for this particular "outbreak" we are talking
about, I don't have any information on what the ultimate source of
contamination was.
I do know from my professional experience and from
published research on food safety, that, by far, the greatest incidence or
probability of food contamination takes place at some step in the handling,
packing and storage process.
I used the expression "don't panic, it's organic", as a humorous intro to
the post. I have no idea if the sprouts were being sold as organic, or
whether their seed source came from so-called "organic" sources. I use
that ironic expression ever so often with my organic buddies as a reality
check for those who might think that organic food is ideally or idyllically
"safe". It probably is, by the way, just as conventional crops are "safe"
from the dictionary definition of that word, but I just like to remind my
organic pals (that includes myself by the way) of little known facts such
as the fact that 25% of organic produce tested was found to have detectable
levels of pesticide residues- this came out of a recent Consumer Report.
Just a note from the real world to those who might think organic produce
has already attained some kind of idealistic goal...(I happen to think that
the "organic" way, at least as I define it for myself, is a superior
production method, but we still do it in the real world)
Also, I never suggested that washing will "get rid" of salmonella...but it
certainly can potentially make the difference between degrees of food
poisoning-- from severe to mild cases or even no noticable
effects...depending on how much bacteria is on the food item just prior to
consumption. We are always eating or drinking some amount of pathogens.
Sometimes, washing does not help enough because the contamination is so
invasive down in the tissue of the food. For example, canteloupes are
frequently severely contaminated with E.coli, mostly from unsanitary
handling practices at the harvest and shipping stages, and at times the
bacteria can make its way into the edible melon flesh from the fiberous
rind when the consumer cuts it open.. Therefore washing the entire melon
rind with a little bit of soap and hot water can help you reduce that
risk...but you must do that before you cut open the melon, if you see what
I mean, and then, it does not always insure that the melon flesh is not
contaminated, because if the rind had been bruised in any way at some
point, the pathogens can enter into the flesh of the melon long before you
purchased it....
So, in my book, it is such a small thing to do, to wash your hands, food,
etc, before eating, that it always pays to do it. Like taking a bath every
Saturday night- whether you need one or not- Heh, heh.
Until next time, have fun and wash your food! Ha, Ha!
Ted.
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| Message 19 |
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Subject: Re: Germ Theory II
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:43:23 -0500
jean, the article did not speculate as to the specific source of
the infection. The one related to heart disease is Chalmidia
pneumoniae, a nasty cousin to the STD chlamydia. When rabbits
were infected with C. pneumoniae and fed a modestly
cholesterol-enhanced diet they were found to have a thickening of
the thoracic aorta when compared to the controls which were fed
the same diet. Treatment with antibiotics after infection
prevented the condition. These findings are reminiscent of 20
years ago when it was determined that 80% of stomach ulcers were
caused by the pathogen H. pylori. A recent survey found that
only 46% of patients were being tested for the pathogen today, a
sad commentary on physicians.
Back to the evolutionary subject, research on salmonella showed
that, actually in a cleaner environment the bacterial strains
evolved into a less-virulent strain over time. Strains cultured
from Chile, where water quality is good were mild, but those from
Guatemala were quite virulent. Strains of the cholera agent
isolated from Texas and Louisiana produce such small amounts of
the toxins that almost no one who is infected with them come down
with cholera. From a public health standpoint the researchers
want to focus on the ability to modifiy the disease organisms to
make them mild so as to act like a natural vaccine.
are being selected out in an evolutionary fashion, because
> they did something unadaptive like not wash their food? That would
> be real interesting. I have a friend from Holland who says Americans
> compared to Europeans, keep their health environment so sterile that
> we are weakening our resistance for when we do come into contact
> with germs.
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| Message 20 |
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Subject: Re: greywater processing (was "lava gravel")
From: jilli and lars
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:30:11 -0800
hi jean -
I got a couple of live plants from the farmers market in
downtown San Francisco. They seem to readily self propogate by sending
new plants off main tubers.
lars
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| Message 21 |
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Subject: Salmonella, Alfalfa, Shamanic Secrets and Aquaponic X files.
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:04:34 -0600
> Ted
> What are you smoking and can you share it?
>
> Donna
Donna, I have nothing cogent or inspiring left to report at this time since
the last few chaotic threads seem to have frayed the discussion beyond
recognition. But that Internet Trickster, The Muse, sent me the following
diatribe in response to your post, and I suppose I have no choice but to
relay it to you.. I have a theory that these strange tangential topics that
come up occassionally tend to bring the Muse up to the surface, kind of
like the nuclear explosions in the 1940s and 50s brought Godzilla up from
the abysmal depths. And look what happened to Tokyo. Not a pretty
picture.
The Muse writes:
Oh, man... Busted again!?
Oh, well. Now I guess I might as well reveal one of the closest held
secrets about aquaponics. This had to come out sometime.
Smoked crawdads.
Perhaps you can recall.... way back in the archives of North American TV
culture (at its literary pinnacle) the episode from "The Beverly
Hillbillies" in which Jedd Clampett and Jethro Bodine were delighted at the
prospect of a crop of smoked crawdads. Their co-conspirator, Ellie May,
cultured these illicit arthropods in the cement pond, of course. For the
first time ever, it can now be revealed that this TV episode was a cryptic
reference to the shamanic use of aquaponic crustaceans.
It is very difficult to keep fresh crawdads lit while smoking them. As you
can imagine. The key is to keep puffing until their tiny little crustacean
carapace begins to whistle at the proper harmonic. All of the most advanced
Cajun adepts and other Ascended Masters in Louisiana know this. Ever
thought about why they cry "Aaaiiieeeee" periodically during their frantic
Akkadian musical hoedown raves?
Tradition has it that Paleolithic Precolumbian North American Native
Peoples (PPNANP, otherwise affectionately known as the Noble Savages) used
smoked crawdads to increase their success in Snipe hunting. As many of you
may know, Snipes are a very reclusive creature native to the Southern US,
and other states of mind. By smoking aquaponic crawdads, it is thought
that our Native ancestors increased their night vision to the point that
they could actually see the elusive Snipe in the slips of the night, hiding
there amidst the swamp vegetation....Unfortunately, this practice went out
of control, resulting in the exitinction of many species of megafauna on
the North American continent...So much for the myth of the Noble Savage
living in harmony with Nature. The fossil record can be used to uh,
somewhat confirm this.. Work with me here, people.....
And talk about cultural parallels. I can't even begin to scratch the
surface of Yabbie smoking. How else can Austrialian Aboriginal Artwork be
explained? Throwing a Yabbie on the Barbie has an entirely different
meaning to the Initiates Down Under.
Signing off.
The Muse
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| Message 22 |
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Subject: Re: Salmonella, Alfalfa, Shamanic Secrets and Aquaponic X files.
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:58:40 -0600
So I guess a stone canoe is the best way to get to the sod yurt?
Gordon
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| Message 23 |
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Subject: Re: Salmonella, Alfalfa, Shamanic Secrets and Aquaponic X files.
From: "Jim Sealy Jr"
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:28:27 -0600
I still haven't recovered my composure completely after reading the
writings of Ted's Muse (I'm sure Ted would never say such things on
his own in such a serious listserve ;).
Closest I'll get to a sod yurt or stone canoe is the strawbale
haybarn and tractor shed we have in the works now. But I do smoke
quail, does that count?
Jim
Strawbale haybarn----- Doesn't that sound redundant? I've promised to
not allow any pigs close to it, little or otherwise.
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| Message 24 |
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Subject: Re: Salmonella, Alfalfa, Shamanic Secrets and Aquaponic X files.
From: Marc
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:39:04 -0700
Will a sod yurt smoke organically if a crawdad is lit inside
after the crawdad is washed?
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