Aquaponics Digest - Thu 01/21/99
Message 1: Re: Salmonella in alfalfa seed from single source
from doelle
Message 2: Re: Germ Theory II
from doelle
Message 3: Re: nutrition
from doelle
Message 4: Water Softening
from Dave Miller
Message 5: To manure or not to manure, that is the question .
from William Evans
Message 6: Re: nutrition
from William Evans
Message 7: Re: Salmonella, Alfalfa, Shamanic Secrets and Aquaponic X files.
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 8: Re: Germ Theory II
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 9: Re: Water Softening
from Marc
Message 10: RE: Germ Theory II
from "Donna Fezler"
Message 11: Re: Water Softening
from "Wendy Nagurny"
Message 12: Re: Tomato Varieties
from Gordon Watkins
Message 13: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Wed 01/20/99
from Gail Hall
Message 14: Re: Salmonella, Alfalfa, Shamanic Secrets and Aquaponic X files.
from David Beckham
Message 15: Re: Water Softening
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 16: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Wed 01/20/99
from David Beckham
Message 17: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Wed 01/20/99
from doelle
Message 18: Re: nutrition
from doelle
Message 19: Re: nutrition
from William Evans
Message 20: Re:unsubscribe
from "SUNTAN"
Message 21: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Wed 01/20/99
from "Ted Ground"
Message 22: RE: Aquaponics Digest - Wed 01/20/99
from "Don C. Whitehead"
Message 23: Re: Water Softening
from Marc
Message 24: Sprout spinner
from "Dale Robinson"
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 1 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Salmonella in alfalfa seed from single source
From: doelle
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:36:50 +1100
Dear Ted,
I really love your humor and your comparisons. I always leave it to people
in which basket they put answers.
I only commented on a letter in our aquaponic discussion group. How
contaminated alfalfa seed came into aquaculture discussion I am not sure and
may need another lesson from you, an expert in aquaculture.
My concern is health and clean environment whether it is in aquaculture or
any other are of the environment. You should have read the paper I just did
in regard to all these beautiful 'dirty socks' called pathogens in your
lovely oysters in a country here in Asia. Fortunately these people listened
to me and quickly cleaned up their act.
Ted, Manure is manure whether from animal or humans. Or is
Australian-English different from the American-English ?
Keep your humour rolling in.
Best regards
Horst
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 2 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Germ Theory II
From: doelle
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:39:54 +1100
Adriana,
Many thanks for your comments. No, I am not aware of the particular work you
are referring to. Could you let me have some more references ? Has he
written articles or so which I could get on the internet or elsewhere ?
I would greatly appreciate any help from you here.
Best wishes
Horst
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 3 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: nutrition
From: doelle
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:50:50 +1100
Bill,
Although I am enjoying your comments, you appear to be an extremely negative
thinking person. WHY ?
If we all start to think again 'naturally' , thing will improve. If we
however continue to see only 'money' , then we are doomed, I agree.
There are many people who try to get people back into the thinking mode and
not accepting everything the chemical industry tells you.
The damaging microbes are only about 10% or less of the total natural
helpful microbial population.
It is totally up to us ourselves how and how long we will live.
Cheer up and be more positive !
Best wishes
Horst Doelle
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 4 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Water Softening
From: Dave Miller
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:44:14 -0500
Hey, Aquaponikers,
Has anyone given thought as to the use of "hard" versus "softened" water
for plants and fish, in greenhouse use, etc.
I would think that the "hard" with its calcium dissolved solids would
help the calcium rich plants (darker greens). And would not sodium be
detrimental for the fish even when softeners claim to put so little into
the tap? Wouldn't it buildup through evaporation?
I'm also checking if anyone knows about ceramic magnetics around pipes
(salt-free system, no energy usage). I am looking to a system by
SoPhTec.
This is their quote:
"SoPhTec is safe for plants and animals and has been used to improve
green house production. It is absorbed easier by plant life and has been
used with great success."
They state:
Eliminates the need for salt and require no maintenance, plumbing, or
electricity, they are easily clamped
over the water pipe. They are effective on PVC, Galvanized, Copper."
How it works:
"There are 14 ceramic magnets in our clamp on units."
I don't have the science in front of me though I read it once or twice.
Some form of ionization while passing through the magnetic field.
Company brochure is on the way...
===============
I personally own a magnetic laundry ball and have not used detergent for
13 months. I understand how detergent in fact is a form of a magnet.
(Ionic and non-ionic compounds)
SO - now what happens to the plants and the fish with water treated by
ceramic magnets. Could this be of benefit to you all who depend upon
dumping lots of salt (like I do) into the water?
Oh, Horst, I don't think Bill is being fatalistic or even overly
pessimistic. Organic Garden reported last year that nutritional yields
of broccoli grown recently compared to pre-world 2 had dropped by 50% in
some elements. So now you must eat twice as much to get the mineral and
vitamin content?
What I am saying is that before agrabusiness had everyone pump
fertilizers and pesticides and chlorides that robbed the natural
microbial action that is found in good loamy, humusy, worm haven,
composted and mulched soil lays a crop robust, chock full of nutrients
and trace minerals. The plant is thriving while it grows so it passes
it on in the form of high quality food to us. And everytime you process
foods, a certain suffering in the vitamin category occurs. Those who
eat from tins of Spam and at the fast food arenas know what I am talking
about. The more organic and raw I eat, the better my complexion, my
personal zest. And now that I am washing my sprouts, I will avoid
additional poisoning that our fast-paced world pressures try and create.
Thanks, I had to say that.
My tortillas were soggy 'cause of my damp sprouts. Anyone know of a
sprout spinner?
Dave
_______________________________________
«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
A "green" home remodeler
A father of 2 cockatiels
An organic farmer
A veggie drummer/keyboardist
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 5 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: To manure or not to manure, that is the question .
From: William Evans
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:23:50 -0800
...'tis nobler to have...
no that's not it..
so ,moral to the story is,,,
compost the effluent and dont depend on guild relationship
or
land spread the waste effluent and till into pasture land for moo
moos/rice paddies
or
feed worms and take resultant castings and feed real soil
or
grow hyacinth/ reeds/ etc,(in the discharge water from tanks) ,harvest
it for eating by us egg suckings dogs; or have fish eat it(the plants)
or what/which
are indole and/or skatole in the discharge?
billevans
ps what about disinfecting bulk whole grains w// hydrogen peroxide prior
to sprouting?
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 6 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: nutrition
From: William Evans
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:47:45 -0800
U think we need" to think naturally" do you mean like "green companies",
or what???...what waas negative ??Your judgments appear way off base
from here.I am a realistic rational person..What is negative about a
statement that places blame somewhere?..Are there any vulcans out there
,let's be logical..dont we need to identify MIstakes so we dont repeat
them?.do we hide Problems, or, try to educate;to come to consensus on
the causative agent.... my assertion that mineral deficiency is primary
bad guy > It is a logical and well documented position..the
statements I made ..were..just statements describing the present
condition.. W/o knowing where blame lies, one cannot effect change.
billevans
doelle wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Although I am enjoying your comments, you appear to be an extremely
negative thinking person. WHY ?
> If we all start to think again 'naturally' , thing will improve. If we
however continue to see only 'money' , then we are doomed, I agree.
> There are many people who try to get people back into the thinking mode
and not accepting everything the chemical industry tells you.
>
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 7 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Salmonella, Alfalfa, Shamanic Secrets and Aquaponic X files.
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:38:51 -0500
Dear Muse,
The Atlantic Monthly also said that they expected to find an
infectious case for certain forms of mental illness too...
Did you remeber to wash those crawdads?
Adriana
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 8 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Germ Theory II
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:46:22 -0500
Horst,
I did a quick Alta Vista search and found his primary web site
at:
http://www.amherst.edu/~biology/faculty/ewald.html
If you can't get ahold of his work on-line send your adress and
I'll snail mail it to you. Maybe I can have my husband scan it
in and I'll forward it to you.
Adriana
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 9 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Water Softening
From: Marc
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:30:01 -0700
Potassium chloride may be used in place of sodium chloride
for regeneration of
ion exchange water softners and plants actually seem to like
it.
My customers who install magnet-based water treatment
devices have hardness
problems when they bypass or have my technicians remove
their water softners.
Marc S. Nameth
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 10 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: RE: Germ Theory II
From: "Donna Fezler"
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:01:16 -0600
I cannot find anything on Medline.
Could you please forward this to me, too. Under evolutionary biology the
cholesterol build-up would have to be a survival mechanism, which makes
sense if it is acting as a storage depot until the liver can metabolize it.
As a member of the American Oil Chemist Society one of my constant
criticisms is how the processing of the oil and the source is ignored. I
have yet to see a study where hexane extracted, processed oil was challenged
against organic cold-pressed oil in one of the health and nutrition studies.
However, when I feed hexane extracted soy meal to the chicks inevitable
there is massive intestinal erosion, stunting, and death. Cold pressed soy
(non-organic) is fine. (My husband is an executive for a huge edible oil
refiner and I constantly tell him he is killing us. Great pillow talk, but
they are listening and expanding into the health oil line)
On that same vein, what was the source of the dietary cholesterol? Free
range cattle or antibiotic filled meat that also has the subclinical signs
of ATP depletion from monensin in the feed? Did they look at the impact of
hydrogenated fats, now recognized to be very deleterious to health, as this
challenge was done? How was the microbe introduced? Did they bypass all
the body's natural defenses? What kind of animal was used and is it an
accurate model of humans? On that one, I know from personal experience the
animal model for autoimmune disorders should be bipedal and susceptible baby
rheas and ostriches, not four legged mammals.
Anyway, this really has nothing to do with aquaponics other than the fact
this issue can be avoided entirely if they eat more aquaponically grown
tilapia.
Donna Fezler
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 11 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Water Softening
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:13:34 -0500
>I personally own a magnetic laundry ball and have not used detergent for
>13 months. I understand how detergent in fact is a form of a magnet.
>(Ionic and non-ionic compounds)
Dave, I can explain exactly how your magnetic laundry balls work. Modern
washing machines are not very good at all at rinsing the detergent out of
your clothes. I fact it takes many, many washings without ANY detergent to
rinse it all out. Since we usually use way too much detergent in our wash
(it only takes about a tablespoon) there is more than enough detergent left
in our clothes for many washings. When we wash our previously washed
clothes, the detergent does its job again and cleans our laundry. For most
people, who rotate their clothing regularly, this means that they can
usually go several months without needing to add additional detergent.
People in changing climates can usually go over a year before needing to add
detergent since whole wardrobes are rotated on a regular basis. Where do
the magnetic laundry balls come in? Since we are creatures of habit, and
feel we must add SOMETHING to our wash to be satisfied, magnetic laundry
balls gives us that something to put in our washers. A latex doggy toy
would work just as well (and is much cheaper). How long is the warrantee on
your magnetic balls?
I will venture a guess that the magnetic water softener clamps work in a
similar manner. By utilizing the excess softening chemicals lining the
walls of your plumbing which was left by your previous water softener, the
magnetic water softener will "soften" your water -- at least long enough
for the warrantee to expire. If you have never had a chemical softener
installed, I bet they don't work at all.
>My tortillas were soggy 'cause of my damp sprouts. Anyone know of a
>sprout spinner?
Try placing your sprouts in a nylon stocking (new and washed) then spin it
around above your head a few times. Works with lettuce. I recommend you
take it outside first though. Nylon stockings also work very well for
making
g tea with loose teas and herbs.
>
>Dave
>_______________________________________
>«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»
>¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>A "green" home remodeler
>A father of 2 cockatiels
>An organic farmer
>A veggie drummer/keyboardist
Could you please explain what kind of vegetables you use for your drums and
keyboards? Are they suitable for aquaponics? We could have a whole new
market niche here.
Wendy
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 12 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Tomato Varieties
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:05:40 -0600
Welcome to the list Jean.
Here's what Johnny's Seeds says about determinate (bush) vs indeterminate
(climbing) tomatoes:
"A tomato variety is determinate if the vine terminates in a flower
cluster. They make only moderate growth after the fruit forms...These are
mostly grown without support although they are well adapted to cage or
stake culture. Indeterminate varieties continue to vine even after fruit
set, ripening over a longer period of time. If they are grown without
support the plants will sprawl and take up a great deal of space. For
best results stake, cage or trellis and prune. Since there is a higher
foliage to fruit ratio, indeterminate varieties are less susceptible to
leaf diseases such as alternaria blight. Although staking adds work, the
tomatoes stay cleaner and have a better potential for developing rich
flavor and large fruit. Yield per square foot of garden will also be
greater."
Gordon
MS JEAN R SHAFFER wrote:
> I'm new to aquaponics and haven't introduced myself yet because I'm
> not sure what level I'm going into it at. But could someone explain
> to me the meaning of determinate varieties which Gordon's email says
> is more suitable for aquaponic system than indeterminates? Thank you
> very much. I find this email subscription fascinating. Thank you
> Tom and Paula Speraneo.
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 13 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Wed 01/20/99
From: Gail Hall
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:16:34 -0800
Subject: Re: Salmonella in alfalfa seed from single source
From: Gail Hall, Tender Greens ghall@spessart.com
Date: Thursday January 21, 1999
I haven't participated much in this list. But this exchange motivated me
to respond. Horst Doelle wrote this:
It really amuses me how the term 'organic' is being used. I simply do not
understand why we do not make a difference between organic and organic.
The original idea of organic means 'using the compost as biofertiliser' .
Now feces and any manure is mixed up with that term and we call it all
organic.
There is a huge difference between organic and organic, as one is mostly
pathogen free and the other is a serious health hazard. I am not
surprised about the increasing pathogenicity of our crops, seeds etc etc
from 'organic fertilised soils'. These people just do not bother to look
up textbooks on microbiology and do not want to realise that we have bad
and good microbes.
I wonder what one has to do to get it across people to carefully examine
the organic fertiliser used for the crop production BEFORE buying and/or
using it to eat.
I was about to send him a message of support and agreement. I then read
the next message from Ted Ground (in part):
>In the last chapter and verse, we learned: (from Mr. Doelle)
> Washing may help, but who washes the food so thorouvghly before eating ?
>Is it not much more convenient to tell those 'expert' in the agricultural
>field to stop using manure as organic fertiliser ?
>
> Do we really have to get an epidemic first before people are listening ?
>
> I have not given up hope, but are surprised with what laxity people
>looking at recycling.
>
> I hope you get your alfalfa seeds clean.
>
> Best regards
>
> Horst Doelle
Reply from Mr. Ground:
>>Horst, uh, what seed is that? What manure are you talking about? What
>In short -what in the world are you talking about?
>I am now more confused than usual. Once again here, we seem to be seeking
>out and finding new misunderstandings where no one has gone before!
>Sometimes I wonder how meaning gets lost as often as it does- like socks in
>the laundry- disappearing without a trace.
Gail Hall's reponse:
Ted (Mr. Ground): I don't know what irritated you to the point of babble
about Mr. Doelle's message. I am a sprout grower and a hydro greens etc.
grower and an in-ground grower. I have been growing for many years. I
have tried to have connection with organized organic growers in my area
and have felt discouraged and gone back to my loner status.
Manure is manure. Manure is feces. Manure is not "clean". Manure is
"natural" but that does not make it "organic". Mr. Doelle is addressing
the issue of terminology and perhaps even myth. (Sorry, Mr. Doelle, for
putting words in your mouth.) At the same time as hormones are being fed
to dairy cows to cause them to produce more milk (more volume of milk),
the idea that manure is an appropriate material to put on food crops
persists. This is just a free-association by my brain at this moment to
juxtapose current practice with "old-fashioned" practice. I have
unproductively pointed out to "organic" growers that manure is possibly
and most likely "non-organic". These words and terminologies create
confusion and conflict. First all the words have to be definitively
defined before the discussion can be carried on in any productive way.
Mr. Ground, your response was not resolving or defining. Mr. Doelle is
attempting to discuss a very important issue to us all. It takes a lot
more than a couple of paragraphs to make this discussion clear. I would
suggest that you ask specific questions with the intention to clarify
your difference in position from Mr. Doelle's. I suggest that you assume
up front that he has something of value to share. Just because you don't
understand it or agree with it is not a reason to be sarcastic and
insulting.
I think this manure issue could be discussed in depth with illumination
and increased understanding the result.
Gail Hall
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 14 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Salmonella, Alfalfa, Shamanic Secrets and Aquaponic X files.
From: David Beckham
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:21:48 -0800
Trying to make a dugout from a petrified log has ruined all my bronze
chisels and broken several of my most prized stone hammers. Fortunately
smoking crawdads seems to take my mind off of it. . . .
David
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 15 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Water Softening
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:09:25 -0600
I haven't heard of how this new water softner works either. When you find
out, please let the rest of us know how well it works.
The laundry ball is another story. A show on TV (60 minutes I think)
reported that they work as well as plan water. You better go back to using
soap if you want clean cloths. I have found that if you use about half the
recomended amount of soap the laundry usually comes out cleaner.
>"SoPhTec is safe for plants and animals and has been used to >How it works:
>
>"There are 14 ceramic magnets in our clamp on units."
>
>I personally own a magnetic laundry ball and have not used detergent for
>13 months. I understand how detergent in fact is a form of a magnet.
>(Ionic and non-ionic compounds)
>
>SO - now what happens to the plants and the fish with water treated by
>ceramic magnets. Could this be of benefit to you all who depend upon
>dumping lots of salt (like I do) into the water?
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 16 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Wed 01/20/99
From: David Beckham
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:05:25 -0800
The petty bickering of all these no-doubt well meaning people seems to have
little to do with Aquaponics. . . maybe there's a Manure List on which to
elaborate on the "difference between organic and organic" or express one's "more
confused than usual" state.
David Beckham
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 17 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Wed 01/20/99
From: doelle
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:58:04 +1100
This is where you are wrong. A lot of aquaculture in the world is done by
using manure for feeding fish in ponds. Not only fish, but also seapages
from not treated effluent into aquaculture farms.
This may not be so in the USA or Europe, but I thought our group is a
worldwide discussion group.
I am also surprised that you call health concerns 'bickering'. I guess it
depends where you are living in this world.
Sorry if I offend the American aquaculture and aquaponic people with my
warning. Some answers certainly showed that this discussion is not a
'bickering' issue.
Neverthless best wishes
Horst Doelle
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 18 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: nutrition
From: doelle
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:10:31 +1100
Dear Bill,
Sorry if I offended you. I learned that if one criticises and also finds
mistakes etc one should expose these, correct ! However, one should also try
to suggest a solution. Please tell me I am wrong, but I found a lot of very
useful criticism in your letters, but I am still searching for the suggested
solution of these problems. We cannot always blame the government, but
should blame ourselves in what happens in the environment. If we start to
rectify things from the bottom, like we try to do in Asia, industry and
governments will and have to follow . AND surprisingly do in many instances.
As I said before, I certainly enjoy you exposing problems.
The young generation is so much relying on antibiotics these days and are so
narrowly educated, that is in a narrow field to be come frontline scientist
or whatever, that they forget the interplay in nature and the balance we
have to maintain or improve in order to bring the environment back to where
it was or even better situation. In my opinion, one can not only select one
part and forget the continuation of the existing cycles.
I hope I make sense this time.
Best wishes
Horst
------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 19 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: nutrition
From: William Evans
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:46:43 -0800
doelle wrote:
>
> Dear Bill,
> Sorry if I offended you.
Not offended, just perturbed a little.I know I come off too objective
at times..What Ive got In my head doesnt always come out as clear as I
would like. I'd wish folks could really listen to the facts and not
infer feeling. I know this is hard.
I learned that if one criticises and also finds mistakes etc one should
expose these, correct ! However, one should also try to suggest a
solution.
Remineralization of the worlds croplands is a tough problem to get a
handle on.What works on one level, doesnt necessarily work on another.
Please tell me I am wrong, but I found a lot of very useful criticism
in your letters, but I am still searching for the suggested solution of
these problems.
Has anyone read William A. ALbrecht??????????besides myself??
Dr. Albrecht was a soils professor at Missouri State way back
when(1930's- to 50's I think)His writings, and many others by grad
students under his direction ,are very key to this discussion...He
showed MANY examples of how unbalanced soils are the root cause of much
disease....a "must" read if one wishes to gt a least a small handle on
recognizing deficiency in soils/crops and ammending to correct..
)We cannot always blame the government, but should blame ourselves in
what happens in the environment. If we start to rectify things from the
bottom, like we try to do in Asia, industry and governments will and
have to follow .
I have heard in Asia some lands have been under continuous
cultivation for 4000 years using nothing but environmental
wastes;HUMANURE as an ammendment, how ya like your rice? I dont blame
gov't per se, but, they certainly help; and so does the little guy
walking down the "toxic waste aisle "at the local home center/nursery.I
think one area govt needs work on is labeling laws/ constraints. The US
is pretty backward here.Fertilizers can have many "inert
"ingrerdients".. WITHOUT having to disclose these "inerts" well just
stay dumb as a population.....small solution here......
Looking forward to more discussion
Bill Evans
> As I said before, I certainly enjoy you exposing problems.
> The young generation is so much relying on antibiotics these days and are
so narrowly educated, that is in a narrow field to be come frontline
scientist or whatever, that they forget the interplay in nature and the
balance we have to maintain or improve in order to bring the environment
back to where it was or even better situation. In my opinion, one can not
only select one part and forget the continuation of the existing cycles.
>
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 21 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Wed 01/20/99
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:44:19 -0600
Gail.
You certainly seem irritated and upset. Am I right?
Maybe I should assume you have not been following the thread, so I will try
to bring you up to speed as I understand it. I am dancing in this
aquaponic revolution as fast as I can. We have gone over the issues of raw
manure, food safety, and culture
techniques related to raw manure many,many,many times in the last year.
No one I know uses raw ruminant, avian, or mammalian feces to grow row
crops in the field or aquaponic crops in the greenhouse . No organic
program I
know of - I know of more than a few, in several US states, allows the use
of such raw material as fertilizer.
As best as I can tell, most organic certification programs require these
categories of raw manure to be composted for 60 days or more before direct
application to the crop. As a certified organic farmer, I do not use raw
ruminant, avian, or mammalian manure material to grow field crops for human
consumption. The major bulk of the risk there is generally rainwater
splashing up onto the crop, followed by inadequate rinsing. Another
consideration is that produce such as melons can actually be contaminated
on the inside by bruising in the field, resting on raw manures applied to
the field, etc.
We have talked about this extensively in this group. Most of us in this
group (I think) seem to know and agree that composting these kinds of
animal manures with organic material also has the added benefits of
developing superior soil tilth, organic matter accumulation, etc. In a
comparison of risks and the discussion of where pathogens occur, we have
agreed that most agricultural soils contain vast numbers of opportunistic
and often virulent pathogens, regardless of wheter animal manure input is
used. So, we have discussed the various risks within the context of the
real world.
To the best of my knowledge, government health authorities usually have
regulations regarding the use of fresh cow, pig, and chicken manure on
crops for human consumption- whether or not those crops are conventional or
certified organic. As I understand it, direct manure applications are
approved for cattle forage crops such as hay, etc. This is based only on my
direct experience here in North America - I realize it can be very
different in other parts of the world. Rice paddys worked by water buffalo,
no sanitary sewage systems in the nearby village...Most of us seem to be
aware of and agree upon the risks involved in these situations.
We have discussed this many, many, many times and I thought that the
consensus was that it really doesnt apply to aquaponic systems as we have
conceived and discussed them, since most of the operating conditions are
understood, in general, to be closed or semi-closed recirculating systems
or ones in which inputs and outputs are more closely controlled than most
agricultural systems....The microbiological data from aquaculture
scientific literature and our common sense and experience confirm this.
Most of the Tilapia produced within the USA are grown in some kind of water
conserving, recirculating, or recycling system, if not aquaponic systems...
Solar Aqua Farms, ADM, TilTech...the ponds in Israel, ..the list goes
on...Each of these are scrutinized in some degree by state and federal
health regulatory agencies. THE MICROBIOLOGICAL RISKS ARE NOT ZERO, but
they are known, they are acceptable within the context of other
agricultural systems we use now, and they are generally more controllable.
We are talking about millions of pounds of fish per year that are relieving
the pressure on freshwater, coastal and open ocean fisheries...Some of
these aquaculture systems are green water systems, some are not.
Anyone who thinks these kinds of systems are a serious risk to human health
based on scientific data or any other substantial information should be on
the phone with these hundreds of farms throughout the world right now-
Humanity should be warned if these are in fact substantial risks...Please
let us know about these risks in detail if you can supply it. We all want
to know the real dangers of aquaculture and aquaponics..
I can recall only a few questions in the past posted to the group about
whether to use raw chicken and rabbit manures in aquaponic fish tanks. To
the best of my recollection, the general discussion seemed to be that raw
ruminant, avian, and mammalian manures should not be directly used in
aquaculture or conventional field crops.
HOWEVER- AND THIS IS A BIG BUT- The sprouts in this last rambling
"discussion" have no connecting information whatsoever, that I am aware of,
which points to the use of raw manure as part of its cultivation, nor am I
aware of any evidence that this particular batch of contaminated sprouts
was labeled organic or not. In earlier posts, I pointed out that the
incidence of Salmonella in dried spices, such as black pepper, apparently
have nothing whatsoever to do with farmers use of manure as fertilizer.
Handling, processing and storage seems to be the most common routes of
contamination for most kinds of bacterial contamination of foods, at least
in the industrialized world. In earlier posts, I also pointed out the VERY
common occurence of Salmonella on chicken meat in the supermarkets of the
industrialized world - this is a condition many of us live with everyday,
year after year, yet the incidence of food poisoning from chicken is
relatively low. In those discussions, I mistakenly mentioned Clostridium
as a very common contaminant of chicken when I meant to say Campylobacter.
If you read the connecting series of posts that I was responding to on this
sprout thing, you will see that Adriana G. pointed out the recent occurance
of Salmonella in
some sprouts grown for human consumption. She posted this as a word of
caution to those of us who may be considering the use of sprouts in general
to feed our fish. Then I followed up with a news item I received
explaining that the sprouts were found to be traced from some source in
Holland..I did not check out the sources of this report, but I added my
comments on the importance of washing foods to reduce pathogen risk.
In connection with that news report on the sprouts, Horst shared with us
his amusement with the term organic. I found most of his post very hard to
follow, and I still have no clue as to how it might connect with what we
were discussing. Specifically, he suggested that it would be "more
convenient to tell
those 'expert' in the agricultural field to stop using manure as organic
fertiliser" and he expressed surprise "with what laxity people looking at
recycling", and he hoped "you get your alfalfa seeds clean". These
comments confused me so thoroughly that I too began to share in his
amusement, responding with reflexive humor, which my distinguished collegue
Horst knows well by now, and I suppose has come to expect...
> Gail Hall's reponse:
> Ted (Mr. Ground): I don't know what irritated you to the point of babble
> about Mr. Doelle's message.
Gail, while it is true I can babble - I try my best to keep up with the
proud champions in this group, in fact - it is seriously not true that I
was irritated, and of course I had no intention of irritating anyone else.
I try to make it a practice not to participate in discussions that irritate
me or others.
>Just because you don't understand it or agree with it is not a reason to
>be sarcastic and insulting.
Gail, unfortunately you have really really misunderstood the entire
expedition by a long shot. I agree that I am in fact confused by many
things, and I certainly understand very little in the big scheme of things,
but do I have some definite opinions about humor. I know my own
intentions and your use of the term sarcasm is uh, very inaccurate.
Sarcasm literally means the "tearing of flesh", and it refers to a direct
attack on the person to whom it is directed at. I don't approve of
sarcasm since I rarely find humor in it, and therefore don't practice it.
And, I don't think humor has to have an ulterior motive. In my book, humor
is
it's own purpose for the most part, just as being interested, confused,
bored, excited, sneezing, etc., can be genuine expressions of the moment.
> I think this manure issue could be discussed in depth with illumination
> and increased understanding the result.
Gail, you might be new to the group, so you might not be aware of how often
this topic has been discussed. This is yet another circumstance in which
the archive might help.
We do know this from the scientific literature and we all seem to agree on
the following points, based on earlier discussion within this group:
Not all animal manure is the same, within reasonable qualifications. Bee
poop is eaten directly with relish by human beings everywhere- not pickle
relish, now, come on, you know what I mean....Worm castings and other
invertebrate exudates
are common and even welcome in agriculture. Fish and crustacean poop falls
into the same general category as worm castings, and certainly does not
represent the microbiological risk that ruminant, avian, and mammalian raw
manure represents by a very very long shot...in fact it is only under
certain conditions of aquaculture in which fish become sick with lesions,
etc., that microbial risks to humans come into consideration. These risks
are very real and are not to be lightly dismissed, but it does not
neccesarily have much to do with the feces.... Bat and seabird guano
(which is not raw manure by a long shot, but it is not composted, either)
is used and approved by organic certification programs without any apparent
undue risk (although there may be some reasonable debate found there on
microbiological or parasitic grounds).
There is an old leftist expression that I am reminded of. "If I can't
dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution". O.K., maybe it was an
old feminist expression. Anyway, neither Bill Buckley nor Ronald Reagan
said it within earshot.
I think we should keep this forum informative, civil, and at the same time
fully human by embracing disagreement and misunderstanding with both logic
and humor. If it should turn into a Parliamentary discourse with Robert's
Rules of Order, I think I shall not be "dancing at this revolution". Among
many other things, I would like my epitaph to read "Flagrant Humorist".
With my luck, the funeral director will undoubtedly misunderstand and carve
"Flattulent Humorist" in the granite for all eternity. I hope to be
laughing from heaven when I read it, because the Truth Shall Set You Free.
If you don't think misunderstanding, confusion, or vigorous debate is to be
expected here, or if you think these things are inappropriate for this
forum, then I guess we disagree.
Ted
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 23 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Water Softening
From: Marc
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:00:25 -0700
After visiting the web page of the company you referred to I
suggest that a little
research could be helpful in evaluating the veracity of
their claims.
Here's a web page with links to entities that contain good
information about water treatment.
http://www.appliedmembranes.com/ind.html
Marc S. Nameth
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 24 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Sprout spinner
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:57:00 -0600
I guess I missed this question when it was firs asked.
I have seen a very good sprout spinner made out of a top loading washing
machine. the machine was set to always spin. The sprouts were placed in a
net type bag before placing it in the washing machine. I can't really tell
if this was meant to be serious question.
Best regards
Dale Robinson
prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net
http//home.att.net/~prof-robinson
>> Anyone know of a sprout spinner?
|
