Aquaponics Digest - Mon 01/25/99
Message 1: Animal waste
from Colin Johnston
Message 2: Re: Chicken Poop
from "KevinLReed"
Message 3: Re: Chicken Poop
from doelle
Message 4:
from Micah Duckworth
Message 5: pasturization of compost
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 6: converting anaerobic into aerobic condition
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 7: aquaponic swimming pool
from "Donna Fezler"
Message 8: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 9: Re: Model rocketry---Re: Thinking of Unsubscribing
from "Lloyd R. Prentice"
Message 10: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
from Michael Strates
Message 11: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 12: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 13: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
from Michael Strates
Message 14: Re: pasturization of compost
from "KevinLReed"
Message 15: Re: pasturization of compost
from Michael Strates
Message 16: Breeding tilapia
from Chris Hedemark
Message 17: Re: converting anaerobic into aerobic condition
from doelle
Message 18: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
from "Wendy Nagurny"
Message 19: Re: converting anaerobic into aerobic condition
from Marc
Message 20: Re: Digesters
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 21: Re: converting anaerobic into aerobic condition
from Michael Strates
Message 22: Re: Feed Mixtures (was Re: Cloning!!!)
from "Susanne Machler"
Message 23: unsubscribe
from "appeng@nexusengin"
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Animal waste
From: Colin Johnston
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:08:57 +0800
Horst
>Many thanks for the explanation. I fully agree with you. The use of human
and animal manure was not only used >traditionally in Asia on the farms ,
but all over the world. I still remember as a boy in the 1940s, that my
grandfather >emptied the septic system into his garden and the farmer in big
lorries onto the field.
>This, however was in the days of lower population, of NO chicken or other
animal farming and also in those days we had >no antibiotics or hormones to
feed the animals to get a good price on the market.
Yes, I think that it is the changed circumstances since the 1950s that make
it much more critical today although
farmers in China, despite warnings, still use human waste on vegetable
fields with problems being felt here in Hong
Kong occasionally. Also I believe the way we prepare and cook food has
everything to do with safety. Salad anyone ?
>This situation has changed and so the drastical resistancy and effect on
human lifes.
>ARE YOU PREPARED TO TAKE THE RISK THAT YOUR BIOFERTILISATION WITH MANURE
CAUSES AN >OUTBREAK OF DISEASE ? That is the question, as farmers are not
able to judge how many pathogens are in the >manure.
>We have to educate people to stop with that practise because of the risk
involved. That has nothing to do with >scaremongering or so. FAO figures
clearly show that the infectious diseases are on the increase again. I am
only talking >about bacteria and have not even mentioned viruses in my
discussion.
Agreed. Well, I guess the thread has sort of echoed around the globe enough
that the population on aquaponics has been
reduced considerably. Still a change in focus temporarily, might be a good
thing. Back to the future.
Colin
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Subject: Re: Chicken Poop
From: "KevinLReed"
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:02:55 -0800
It wouldn't take too much trouble to compost ANY manure to achieve a
temepereture of 160 Degrees F for a day or two to be sure it is safe.
Personally half the fun of a greenhouse environment is the wonderful smell
and atmoshere ... somehow I think manure in the tanks would detract from
this asthetics of greenhouse growing. I know this smell always made going to
the dairy just a little less attractive.
Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Johnston
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 5:36 PM
Subject: Chicken Poop
>Terry
>
>>I have a brochure I acquired from Auburn University about Tilapia raising
in
>>Guatemala. They were quite specific in praising the idea of chicken coops
>>directly above the ponds so the excreta would fall through into the water.
>
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Subject: Re: Chicken Poop
From: doelle
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:28:08 +1100
Kevin,
At 11:02 PM 24/01/99 -0800, you wrote:
>It wouldn't take too much trouble to compost ANY manure to achieve a
>temepereture of 160 Degrees F for a day or two to be sure it is safe.
>Personally half the fun of a greenhouse environment is the wonderful smell
>and atmoshere ... somehow I think manure in the tanks would detract from
>this asthetics of greenhouse growing. I know this smell always made going to
>the dairy just a little less attractive.
Well said, as I have admit also that nothing is better than 'Landluft',
which means the air off the land !
However, times unfortunately and/or fortunately change.
Horst
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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Subject: pasturization of compost
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 04:55:49 -0700 (MST)
You said:"It wouldn't take too much trouble to compost ANY manure to achieve
a temepereture of 160 Degrees F for a day or two to be sure it is safe."
_____________________________________________________________________________
Kevin: How can I get my composting toilet to do that in the middle of
winter in Canada, when I cannot get grass clippings from outside? But I
have some clippings from plants around the house and greenhouse.
Jorg ostrowski
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Subject: converting anaerobic into aerobic condition
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 05:45:57 -0700 (MST)
You said:"Be careful of anerobic bacteria.. alot of them (most of them)
are baddies."
_________________________________________________________________________
Michael: How can one turn the bad guys into good guys (ie. prevent
stagnant greywater becoming aenerobic) without fancy pumps, circulaltion,
air stones, electricity, granulated activated charcoal filters, etc.
Jorg Ostrowski
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Subject: aquaponic swimming pool
From: "Donna Fezler"
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:53:16 -0600
We are at the very early stages of designing an greenhouse enclosed swimming
pool, assuming certain criteria can be met.
1. The water cannot be chlorinated (or brominated).
2. The greenhouse is a permaculture greenhouse with plants.
Is there any reason the water could not originate in the aquaponic system at
the discharge side of the plant beds? If further sterilization is
necessary, it could be run through UV tubes. I will probably want to run it
through charcoal for deodorization. I have a minimal bact. lab and can test
for aerobic pathogens.
Does anyone have any idea if treating the water this way will have any
negative effect on the fish or the plants?
I swim in lakes, why can't I swim in this water?
By constructing it within an aquaponic system, aspects of the system can be
depreciated that could not normally with a recreational swimming pool,
providing significant tax benefits. This would also act as our solar heat
sink.
Please, is there anything wrong with the idea?
Donna Fezler
Jacksonville, IL
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Subject: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:11:45 -0500
Donna,
In effect you intend to use the aquaponic components in lieu of a
pool filtration system. I read somewhere that some aquaponic
discharge water is cleaner than that which has been purified with
a reverse osmosis system. Whether one type of system is superior
at producing clean water over another is an area to look into,
ebb and flow vs NFT vs floating raft; gravel vs. perlite. There
is a commercial group somewhere in New England which is
processing its sewage through algae beds so in theory it should
work.
I suspect that a key to keeping a healthy pool will be rapid
turnover of the water in the pool, ie number of total water
exchanges. After 3 years of pool ownership I can tell you that
each pool has its own personality and threshholds at which it
turns suddenly green. In this case of course, the fish would
love the algae. Simply running green water thorugh a sand filter
does not remove the algae, you need to superchlorinate it to
return to crystal clear water. On the other hand, our local
public aquariums maintain crystal clear water using ozonation
systems. If your pool got into trouble you would be very limited
in treatment options with fish and plants on-line. Good luck, it
sounds like a fun project.
Adriana
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Subject: Re: Model rocketry---Re: Thinking of Unsubscribing
From: "Lloyd R. Prentice"
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:35:57 -0500
Well, in effort to move us back on track, let me pose two questions that
I've asked before, but with insufficient response to move ahead:
1) I'd like to try my hand at breeding tilapia in a very small way. Can
I do this in a twenty-gallon aquarium set-up? How?
2) Where can I get the breeders? To start with, at least, I don't need
blue-ribbon stock.
Many thanks,
Lloyd R. Prentice
>
> Michael Strates wrote:
> >
> > With the recent load of junk that's been coming in this mail packet, I'm
> > seriously going to think about unsubscribing
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Subject: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
From: Michael Strates
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:45:36 +1100 (EST)
On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Donna Fezler wrote:
DF> Is there any reason the water could not originate in the aquaponic
DF> system at the discharge side of the plant beds? If further
DF> sterilization is necessary, it could be run through UV tubes. I
DF> will probably want to run it through charcoal for deodorization.
DF> I have a minimal bact. lab and can test for aerobic pathogens.
Oh no.. If you're going to swim in the water, you really don't want the
aquaponics gunk getting into it. Although if you were crazy enough to,
you'd probably want a H2O2 injection system, UV sterilization, and several
charcoal and other filters.
The other thing you could do is chlorinate the water, and then pass it
through one of those microsieve filters which remove chlorine, bacteria,
etc.. without any chemicals.
Or, just aerate the water heavily before it returns to the fish tanks?!
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Subject: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:52:38 -0600
At 07:53 AM 1/25/99 -0600, Donna wrote:
>Is there any reason the water could not originate in the aquaponic system at
>the discharge side of the plant beds? If further sterilization is
>necessary, it could be run through UV tubes. I will probably want to run it
>through charcoal for deodorization. I have a minimal bact. lab and can test
>for aerobic pathogens.
>
>Does anyone have any idea if treating the water this way will have any
>negative effect on the fish or the plants?
Charcoal filtration is often used in fish-rearing systems, and probably will
have no negative affect on the fish or plants. Wonder if UV exposure would
have any affect on your bacterial levels...at least those that keep your
aquaponics system in balance?
>I swim in lakes, why can't I swim in this water?
Should be safe for swimming, but I guess the decision to use it that way
might have some bearing on the ultimate plans for your fish and plants. I
can foresee some possible complications if you intend to raise edible plants
and market these products.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:57:51 -0600
At 05:45 PM 1/26/99 +1100, Michael wrote:
>Oh no.. If you're going to swim in the water, you really don't want the
>aquaponics gunk getting into it. Although if you were crazy enough to,
>you'd probably want a H2O2 injection system, UV sterilization, and several
>charcoal and other filters.
Michael - what kind of "aquaponics gunk" do you think will be in the water
at the discharge side of the plant beds? That's normally the place where
the water is cleanest and is returned to the fish tanks, at least in our
system and I'd think in most designs.
>The other thing you could do is chlorinate the water, and then pass it
>through one of those microsieve filters which remove chlorine, bacteria,
>etc.. without any chemicals.
Using chlorine (besides it's carcinogenic properties) would eliminate all
useful bacteria from the system, causing major disruption in the filtering
capabilities and overall function of the system.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
From: Michael Strates
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:10:08 +1100 (EST)
On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, S & S Aqua Farm wrote:
SSAF> Michael - what kind of "aquaponics gunk" do you think will be in the water
SSAF> at the discharge side of the plant beds? That's normally the place where
SSAF> the water is cleanest and is returned to the fish tanks, at least in our
SSAF> system and I'd think in most designs.
Yes, your perfectly correct. But there is still bacteria in the water, and
that is what kind of worries me about swimming in the used nutrient soup.
SSAF> Using chlorine (besides it's carcinogenic properties) would eliminate all
SSAF> useful bacteria from the system, causing major disruption in the filtering
SSAF> capabilities and overall function of the system.
Yes.. I understand. However; while most bacterias in an aquaponics system
have bengin effects on humans, some do, for example e.coli or something
similar if you were to add manures to your beds for some reason.
I wouldn't feel very comfortable swimming in the aquaponics system, and it
is my opinion that you use the water store as a "make-up tank" to
compensate for evaporation of your water, and H2O2 + UV it very often.
Chlorine, IMHO is the best and easiest way to sterilize water.
Carcinogenic, perhaps? But in the quantities it is present, it is almost
negligible (hmm.. would people stop using paper if I told them it
contained tiny amounts of dioxin?).
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Subject: Re: pasturization of compost
From: "KevinLReed"
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:23:32 -0800
It sounds like you have a unique problem. What do you do with the waste
now?While I would doubt the effluent from your composting toilet would be
used in the winter, if growth of grass is as slow as you say. Perhaps you
could let it freeze until spring. Freezing also seems to inhibit the growth
of many pathogens. Your real problem is not the composting because of the
cold so much as lack of raw composting materials. Maybe you could grow a
small crop of grass in the normal growing season and save it for winter
composting. Alternately any method of heating the effluent would work the
same. Maybe one of Horsts digesters could offer the fuel for a winter heat
source. Good luck with the ice cubes.
Kevin
Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: Jorg D. Ostrowski
To: KevinLReed
Cc: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 3:56 AM
Subject: pasturization of compost
>
>You said:"It wouldn't take too much trouble to compost ANY manure to
achieve
> a temepereture of 160 Degrees F for a day or two to be sure it is safe."
>___________________________________________________________________________
__
>Kevin: How can I get my composting toilet to do that in the middle of
>winter in Canada, when I cannot get grass clippings from outside? But I
>have some clippings from plants around the house and greenhouse.
>Jorg ostrowski
>
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Subject: Re: pasturization of compost
From: Michael Strates
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:34:22 +1100 (EST)
On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, KevinLReed wrote:
K> It sounds like you have a unique problem. What do you do with the waste
K> now?While I would doubt the effluent from your composting toilet would be
K> used in the winter, if growth of grass is as slow as you say. Perhaps you
K> could let it freeze until spring. Freezing also seems to inhibit the growth
K> of many pathogens. Your real problem is not the composting because of the
Two things can kill pathogens:
[i] heat
[ii] time
Too much heat or too little heat will inhibit the growth and/or kill any
pathogens in the effluent. You can also do what I do with cat feces. I
dump the cat feces in a bag, with some 6% peroxide, and leave it all under
a UV light for about 30 minutes.
Upon microbiological investigation very few organisims of any kind remain.
I do this to anything pathogenous, and kill ALL life on it, and then when
its sterilized, give it a dose of harmless aerobic bacteria which I
purchase in a bottle and dilute up. This way, I know /exactly/ what
bacteria I'm putting on it, and what is on it.
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Subject: Breeding tilapia
From: Chris Hedemark
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:58:33 -0500
Lloyd R. Prentice wrote:
> Well, in effort to move us back on track, let me pose two questions that
> I've asked before, but with insufficient response to move ahead:
>
> 1) I'd like to try my hand at breeding tilapia in a very small way. Can
> I do this in a twenty-gallon aquarium set-up? How?
I don't think this is sufficient. It will be a LOT of work to keep the
fish alive in 20 gallons at adult breeding size. I suggest getting
something more like a 40 gallon or larger container. Low is preferable
to tall (more surface area the better). For low budget, look towards
Rubbermaid at the nearest Walmart for a suitable container.
> 2) Where can I get the breeders? To start with, at least, I don't need
> blue-ribbon stock.
Sometimes pet shops have them. You will pay through the nose this way.
I suggest getting with one of the tilapia farmers on this list (there
are several) and try to get them to ship you some fingerlings.
I have personally been trying my hand at raising Pacu as food fish.
Word of warning - they are extremely flighty even into their adulthood.
The tank must be well covered.
Lloyd you are going into an area where you will likely get more good
info from hobbyists than from farmers. Breeding tilapia is a whole
different world from raising them for food. Check out the usenet
newsgroup rec.aquaria. Tilapia are actually very easy to breed (most
tilapia farmers go to great pains to KEEP them from breeding!) so most
of your education will need to be on how to keep the adults healthy
until they breed and how to care for their offspring. There is a wealth
of information on this subject in the aquarium hobbyist community.
I wrote an article a few years ago on filtration in the cichlid
aquarium. I no longer have my copy but I know there are *ahem* illegal
copies out there republished without my permission. Heh. The one site
that republished the article *with* my permission is
http://trans4.neep.wisc.edu/~gracy/fish/pages/general/filter.article.html
It is geared more towards the hobbyist but this is the scale you need to
think on if you are pairing off tilapia. Think of it as a high level
overview. At the time I wrote that article there weren't many people
using fluidized bed filtration. I've seen it in use since then in small
to large scale configurations and it seems to work very nicely so it
should be considered as well.
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Subject: Re: converting anaerobic into aerobic condition
From: doelle
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:57:11 +1100
Very simple. Guide them through an anaerobic digester [polyethylene tubing],
or aerate your container. In the first case you get rid of most of your
'baddies' and in the latter case [more expensive] you do the same.
You will not get anything for nothing. Unfortunately we always think that
everything has to be cheap, even if it is unhealthy.
Horst
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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Subject: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:05:39 -0500
I can see no reason why you can't swim in you aquaponics water as long as
you were careful to avoid lotions, creams, deodorants, detergents, etc on
yourself. You don't want these things in your aquaponics system. I don't
think I would try to market anything grown in something my family swam in
either, but if the produce is just for your own consumption, why not? When
I read the original post, I thought it would be great to swim and play with
my fishies. I don't think your fish water would hurt you. You are already
eating the plants grown in it and the fish that swim there. Like I said, my
concern would be more for you hurting them with the anointments of modern
society then they hurting you.
Wendy
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Subject: Re: converting anaerobic into aerobic condition
From: Marc
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:28:42 -0700
I've seen mention of greenhouse gases,GHG. Where would the
various digesters fit into the GHG scheme of things to come?
Marc S. Nameth
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Subject: Re: Digesters
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:46:29 -0600
I have heard a story about a Laundromat in Southern Utah that ran all it's
gas needs off of a sewer vent for years. It wasn't until the owner died and
his wife noticed that the gas bill was real low that it was brought to
light. The city promptly cut off his "free" gas supply and closed the place
I hate to think what may have happened if he had got some back burning. It
was estimated that a spark or back burn would have taken the most part out
of a city block.
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Subject: Re: converting anaerobic into aerobic condition
From: Michael Strates
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:19:06 +1100 (EST)
On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote:
JDO> Michael: How can one turn the bad guys into good guys (ie. prevent
JDO> stagnant greywater becoming aenerobic) without fancy pumps, circulaltion,
JDO> air stones, electricity, granulated activated charcoal filters, etc.
JDO> Jorg Ostrowski
Blow through a straw into the water :-). I find the easiest way to stop
the bulk of them appearing is just to aerate the water with a $10 air
pump.
--
e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates
See keyservers for PGP info. Linux! The OS of my Choice!
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."
- Leonardo da Vinci, and below an extract from John Forgety's song:
Hey, Tonight - Gonna be tonight- Don't you know I'm flyin'- Tonight
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Subject: Re: Feed Mixtures (was Re: Cloning!!!)
From: "Susanne Machler"
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:11:41 PST
Hello folks,
I had sent a file to this list but cannot seem to find it again in my
bookmarks. It was the file showing the breakdown of various nutritional
ingredients of various feedstock, grains etc. anyone got a
hotlink/bookmark/archive to post it back to me?
Is there anyone as well who has got some practical designs and drawings
of gasifiers, biogas digestors, ram pumps (made from say PVC fittings,)
or knows of any such site/ group mailing list?
Thanks,
Sue
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 11:09:21 -0600
From: Gordon Watkins
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Subject: Feed Mixtures (was Re: Cloning!!!)
Reply-To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Susanne,
"Tilapia Aquaculture in the Americas", edited by Costa-Pierce and
our
friend Jim Rakocy, has a chapter on "Tilapia Nutrition, Feeds and
Feeding"
which provides a good overview of protein, amino acid, vitamin and
mineral
requirements of tilapia (
http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/was/books/tilapia.htm ). Another good
source of information is "Nutrition and Feeding of Fish" (1989) by Tom
Lovell which has a chapter on "Practical Feeding - Tilapias".
On a related note, what kinds of prepared, commercial feeds are
others
using? I have difficulty finding anything other than catfish pellets
locally
and I'm looking for sources for better quality feed. I'm interested to
know
what others use, particularly brands, protein levels and pellet size.
I've
seen some information which rates Silver Cup and Purina as top brands.
Anyone using Silver Cup or know where it can be ordered?
I just ordered some Canola (rape) seed which I'll be sprouting for
tilapia feed. I'll let everyone know the results. I've also been feeding
earthworms from my vermicomposter to my tilapia broodstock and breeding
activity seems to have picked up.
Don't get too hot down there!
Gordon
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