Aquaponics Digest - Wed 01/27/99
Message 1: Model rocketry
from Colin Johnston
Message 2: Re: Missouri Organic Assn. Conference
from "prody d"
Message 3: Re:swimming pool, contact info for Scott Jones
from Hydro/Aquatic Tech
Message 4: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 01/26/99
from DAVEINBHAM
Message 5: Re: Ted
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 6: Re: Backup wood burning water heater
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 7: Re: Backup wood burning water heater
from "Mel Riser"
Message 8: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
from jilli and lars
Message 9: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
from jilli and lars
Message 10: Re: Ted
from jilli and lars
Message 11: Re: Backup wood burning water heater
from jilli and lars
Message 12: compost water heater
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 13: Aerobic Compost as Aquaponics Heaters
from Michael Strates
Message 14: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
from Michael Strates
Message 15: RE: compost water heater
from "Edward J. Sommers"
Message 16: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 01/26/99
from doelle
Message 17: barley hay
from Martha Sundquist
Message 18: Breeding Tilapia (Was Model rocketry)
from Gordon Watkins
Message 19: Pacu (was Breeding tilapia)
from Gordon Watkins
Message 20:
from Pat Rice
Message 21: Re: Breeding Tilapia (Was Model rocketry)
from "Lloyd R. Prentice"
Message 22: Creosote Ties
from Dave Miller
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Subject: Model rocketry
From: Colin Johnston
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:37:10 +0800
Hi Lloyd,
>Well, in effort to move us back on track, let me pose two questions that
>I've asked before, but with insufficient response to move ahead:
>1) I'd like to try my hand at breeding tilapia in a very small way. Can
>I do this in a twenty-gallon aquarium set-up? How?
As mentioned elsewhere the 20 gallon tank's a bit small, but since tilapia
can and do breed at quite a small size 3-4" fish or under, you can simply
switch of a larger tank later if you're of a mind to.
As there are a number of different types of tilapia you should decide which
variety you wish to go for. There has already been some discussion on this
on the list. Basically, it's a question of maintaining water quality in the
tank,
not having more than one breeding pair (or being prepared to move the
troublemakers out of the way), providing an inch or so of medium-sized
gravel on part of the bottom and having sufficient aeration (couple of air
stones,
positioned not too close to the probable nesting area), sufficient water
circulation to allow filtration of solids, and indirect (or low level)
lighting. It also
helps not to have too much activity near the tank when spawning looks like
taking place (observe male behaviour). Guess temperatures could be slightly
higher than 23 degrees Centigrade. After spawning, the male may be removed
or you might have to repeat the whole process . The female will continue
to keep the fry in her mouth until they are larger, then she can be removed
also. How do you know when to remove the male ? Watch both fishes reaction
to sinking feed. The male eats it but the female just 'attacks' it with her
mouth
but does not swallow. This suggests that she either has eggs or fry in her
mouth. REMOVE male a.s.a.p. (well, after you have a coffee and find a net).
On setting up the tank make sure that the water has been 'matured' for a
couple of days with the filtration, aeration, heater (unless you're in Florida)
to let things settle down. Check the visibility is clear and place (gently) the
fish, one at a time in a net, making certain that the water temperature from
their old container and the new tank is the same (or float a plastic bag
with each separate fish in the new tank until temperatures stabilize). As for
getting the spawning pair, ask your neighbourhood fish dealer, usually the
dorsal fin is the indicator (the male's is more pointed - generally). Anyway,
if nothing 'happens' within 12 weeks, eat one and get another that looks
different. Hey, just kidding :) If you want more info, give a shout off list !
>2) Where can I get the breeders? To start with, at least, I don't need
>blue-ribbon stock.
Check your local tropical fish dealer or university. These tilapia are as
common
as muck. If you get 'really' desperate, I'll send a couple from Hong Kong :)
Cheers
Colin
>
> Michael Strates wrote:
> >
> > With the recent load of junk that's been coming in this mail packet, I'm
> > seriously going to think about unsubscribing
Please do, it really doesn't bother me :)
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Subject: Re: Missouri Organic Assn. Conference
From: "prody d"
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:33:25 PST
thak you very much for the information about the conference...I know my
reply is a little it late but, if there is time I like toattend the
conference ... thank you prody
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Subject: Re:swimming pool, contact info for Scott Jones
From: Hydro/Aquatic Tech
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:18 -0800
> The June/July issue of Aquaponics Journal had an article entitled
> "Ornamental Pond Aquaponic System". This may help you. The
> author, Scott Jones used to participate on this list and is a
> supplier of some the needed parts. You can get back issues of
> the Journal at: www.aquaponics.com
>
> Adriana
Hi everybody,
I'm still here on the list, just sitting quietly. I'm available for
questions etc., but due to contract for designing/building a 2 acre
commercial aquaponic site I'm a little busy right now, and may be a
little slow in responding.
I can be reached at aqua@hatech.com, or by phone at 410-957-2680
Best regards,
Scott Jones
Hydro/Aquatic Technologies
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 01/26/99
From: DAVEINBHAM
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:04:22 EST
Donna Fezler wrote...
When I lived in Louisiana I would use a few dozen water hyacinths ....and I
did not have algae growth... . They may have and inhibitory effect.
Hi Donna,
I don't think so. I have a small colony of water hyacinths that have been
growing in my greenhouse for over 30 years. The number one problem I have
growing them is algae.
Dave Holder
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Subject: Re: Ted
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:07:22, -0500
Dear Michael
I am interested in knowing about your trash can digester. Would it
be enough to heat a fish tank? (Just lights would be great if not).
We have just 2 people contributing to our septic tank here. I've
heard from Bill Mollison's work you can capture the affluent from
your septic tank and convert it to methane. But I don't think I
could make it work from his brief explanation.
Also does anyone have experience using the Chofu heater (wood burning
for hot tubs) advertised in the Real Goods Solar Living Source book,
as a emergency backup aquaculture tank heater? Or any other wood
burning water heaters? I have a 1000 gal tank and the ad says it
will heat a 250 gal hot tub to over a 100 F in 2 1/2 hrs. And I just
want to go to 77 F for tilapia.
I haven't started my system yet but am working on it. What is a good
electric tank heater for when the power is on? I live in the Pacific
NW so solar and wind are out. We are going to a solar hot water
heater for the house but it will just work while the sun shines.
??? Jean
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Subject: Re: Backup wood burning water heater
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:30:50, -0500
For those who skipped my email under the topic of Ted (unsubscribe)
This is not about that.
Dear Michael
I am interested in knowing about your trash can digester. Would it
be enough to heat a fish tank? (Just lights would be great if not).
We have just 2 people contributing to our septic tank here. I've
heard from Bill Mollison's work you can capture the affluent from
your septic tank and convert it to methane. But I don't think I
could make it work from his brief explanation.
Also does anyone have experience using the Chofu heater (wood burning
for hot tubs) advertised in the Real Goods Solar Living Source book,
as a emergency backup aquaculture tank heater? Or any other wood
burning water heaters? I have a 1000 gal tank and the ad says it
will heat a 250 gal hot tub to over a 100 F in 2 1/2 hrs. And I just
want to go to 77 F for tilapia.
I haven't started my system yet but am working on it. What is a good
electric tank heater for when the power is on? I live in the Pacific
NW so solar and wind are out. We are going to a solar hot water
heater for the house but it will just work while the sun shines.
??? Jean
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Subject: Re: Backup wood burning water heater
From: "Mel Riser"
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:47:25 -0600
That brand would work well but you would need to install some temperature
controls so you don't "Stew" you fish... Another brand of wood fired heater
is the Corona and it is made in Mexico... I think Real Goods sells it as
well...
As long as you had a way of shunting the hot water away from your tank when
the fire gets too big or temp is reached, you could heat with it.
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Subject: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
From: jilli and lars
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:11:22 -0800
hi donna (and y'all) -
this is probably not the direction you wanted to go, but my in-laws in
australia have a salt water swimming pool. I believe the salt works similarly to
chlorine, but obviously not as dangerous to _all_ living things. I've been
thinking about integrating salt water into a larger system - possibly as a
'final' destination for overflow H20 from a freshwater system. I was thinking
maybe that would be a way of taking care of the buildup of excess salts - a salt
sink.
just some flatulence of the brain, excuse me... ;-)
lars fields, airhead extraordinaire
Donna Fezler wrote:
> Thanks, I will keep this in mind. It is incredible what other people think
> of.
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Subject: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
From: jilli and lars
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:33:37 -0800
I wonder if the water hyacinth prevented algae growth by outcompeting it for
nutrients in an already low-nutrient environment. Additionally, a full cover
of water hyacinth would probably shade out algae, but i guess that might not
be that much fun to swim through..
In terms of _not_ having fish in the swimming pool - one problem i can think
of is mosquitos - without any predators the larvae will be free to grow to
adulthood. Maybe you would need to allow some fish into the 'human swimming
area' as you had orginally intended.
its a wonderful idea, though. Can you please keep the list up to date with
your progress?
Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote:
> Donna: Are you saying that the water hyacinth prevented algae growth? I
> hope not since mine are helping to clean my greywater, I need my algae to
> feed my fish. I wonder if it may have been the low winter light levels?
> Jorg Ostrowski
> ________________________________________________
> You said: " When I lived in Louisiana I would use a few
> dozen water hyacinths (they did not even cover 1/10 of the surface) over
> the winter and I did not have algae growth,.."
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Subject: Re: Ted
From: jilli and lars
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:37:29 -0800
Hi jean -
First of all, can we change this subject header? I feel like i'm
dancing on someones grave...
I remember seeing a personal web site (which i can probably find
again if you are really interested) put up by a family in portland oregon
who ran a hot water heater off of an aerobic compost heap. As you might
know, anaerobic composting requires energy in order to take place.
However, a well aereated compost heap can get quite hot (like 140F or
more). This family had a very large woodchip pile compost heap located in
a poly-film greenhouse (so that plants could take advantage of the large
amounts of CO2 generated). Buried within the pile they had a coil of
plastic tubing which was connected to the hot water storage container
within the house by insulated tubing. I think the hot water storage
container was located physically higher than the compost pile so that
thermosiphoning caused the hot water to go from the pile to the storage
container (hot water rises, er...cold water sinks) so that _no_ pump was
needed to circulate the water (passive).
This sounds to me like an elegant solution (at least for
suplemental heat maybe) in a place like the pacific northwest in the
winter.
Lars Fields
MS JEAN R SHAFFER wrote:
> I haven't started my system yet but am working on it. What is a good
> electric tank heater for when the power is on? I live in the Pacific
> NW so solar and wind are out. We are going to a solar hot water
> heater for the house but it will just work while the sun shines.
> ??? Jean
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Subject: Re: Backup wood burning water heater
From: jilli and lars
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:29:07 -0800
here's a quote I found at a usenet archive (it was in reference to
additional ways of composting humanure mixed with sawdust):
"How about also heating water for showers? An insulated 55 gallon plastic
drum or rubber-lined plywood box or two in the basement with no holes in
the bottom, with a small blower and condensing air-air heat exchanger to
supply air, exhausted to outdoors, and a humidistat and solenoid valve
and overhead sprinkler to supply water, and some sort of heat exchanger,
with an insulated tank above? Compost has about the same fuel value as
wood, from 14.2 to 28.5 kilojoules (kJ) per gram of material or 6-12K
Btu/lb, vs. softwoods at 19.2 MJ/kg and hardwoods at 18.2 MJ/kg. Jenkins
says 100 pounds of human body weight will produce approximately 3 gallons
or 0.4 cubic feet of compost per week (12 pounds?) including the sawdust.
Under ideal conditions (55-60 degrees C, >15% O2, 45-55% H2O) the heat
production rate may be about 10K Btu/(3 monthsx30daysx24hours)-lb = 5
Btu/hr-lb, so a 50K Btu/day "compost water heater" might require 400 lb
of compost at 30 lb/ft^3 (50% H2O), ie 14 ft^3, ie a 2.4 foot cube, or
a 4' high by 2' diameter cylinder digesting 5 pounds of humanure daily
from 3 100 pound humans."
lars fields
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Subject: compost water heater
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:45:00 -0700 (MST)
You said:"I remember seeing a personal web site (which i can probably find
again if you are really interested) put up by a family in portland oregon
who ran a hot water heater off of an aerobic compost heap."
__________________________________________________________________________
Lars: Many years ago we toured an autonomous solar greenhouse in Circle
Montana in which three compost piles provided all backup (air) heating
beyond conservation and passive solar. A wind gnerator provided
electricity. Could you kindly tell us the web site for your quote above
please? Jorg Ostrowski
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Subject: Aerobic Compost as Aquaponics Heaters
From: Michael Strates
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:56:16 +1100 (EST)
On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, jilli and lars wrote:
jal> again if you are really interested) put up by a family in portland oregon
jal> who ran a hot water heater off of an aerobic compost heap. As you might
jal> know, anaerobic composting requires energy in order to take place.
Yes, you can do that quite easily, although it is my opinion that it is
less efficient (although easier) than using an anerobic digester. You need
a compost heap with lots of manure, grass clippings, stuff that makes it
hot, and then run some metal tubing into it in a coil in the deep centre.
Pass water into it until it reaches the end, leave it there for about 5-6
minutes, and you'll end up with quite hot water (enough to shower in).
Strum about 10 compost bins together, and connect them all in series, and
you can get enough hot water for a few quick showers.
jal> amounts of CO2 generated). Buried within the pile they had a coil of
jal> plastic tubing which was connected to the hot water storage container
jal> within the house by insulated tubing. I think the hot water storage
Plastic tubing?! polypipe might work, but the garden hose I used melted
(well, not quite, but became that soft that you could break it with your
hand).
jal> container was located physically higher than the compost pile so that
jal> thermosiphoning caused the hot water to go from the pile to the storage
jal> container (hot water rises, er...cold water sinks) so that _no_ pump was
jal> needed to circulate the water (passive).
You could do that as well. I perfer active systems because of their added
efficiency. Beware, if you take too much heat out of the compost, the
composting cycle will lose its heat, and the composting will simply stop.
--
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Subject: Re: aquaponic swimming pool
From: Michael Strates
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:57:44 +1100 (EST)
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, jilli and lars wrote:
jal> this is probably not the direction you wanted to go, but
jal> my in-laws in australia have a salt water swimming pool. I
jal> believe the salt works similarly to chlorine, but obviously not
jal> as dangerous to _all_ living things. I've been thinking about
How about a salt water pool with salt water fish, and then have a salt
filter (reverse osmosis type; costs about $40 for a small one) that goes
to your plants and delivers fresh water.
--
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Subject: RE: compost water heater
From: "Edward J. Sommers"
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:05:38 -0800
> You said:"I remember seeing a personal web site (which i can probably find
> again if you are really interested) put up by a family in portland oregon
> who ran a hot water heater off of an aerobic compost heap."
> __________________________________________________________________________
> Lars: Many years ago we toured an autonomous solar greenhouse in Circle
> Montana in which three compost piles provided all backup (air) heating
> beyond conservation and passive solar. A wind gnerator provided
> electricity. Could you kindly tell us the web site for your quote above
> please? Jorg Ostrowski
>
It's at http://www.rdrop.com/users/krishna/
Ed
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 01/26/99
From: doelle
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:59:20 +1100
I believe the number one problem of your water causing algae growth is
phosphate and nitrogen in your water. In particular phosphate.
Have you heard of the algae blooms around the world ? The cause is mainly
our phosphor fertilisers leaching into the sea. That is way we have the
algae bloom close to the coasts or in the more quiet flowing rivers.
Horst Doelle
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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Subject: barley hay
From: Martha Sundquist
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:02:32 -0600
Has anyone ever heard of putting barley hay in ponds to curb algae growth?
Heard this recently and wondered if it were valid.
Martha Sundquist ICQ#4055749 Home phone:1-913-764-2890
Fax phone:
1-913-780-6646
Business:
1-816-289-3674
Dynamic Essentials...Nutritionals, skin care, and a great opportunity in a
startup MLM company!
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Subject: Breeding Tilapia (Was Model rocketry)
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:26:20 -0600
Lloyd,
I've been breeding tilapia for a couple of years now. Here's how I do it:
I started with 5 females and one male, all about 3" long, in a 50 gal.
aquarium. I mail ordered the harem and within hours of arrival one had a
mouthful of eggs. If you're buying unsexed juveniles and are unable to reliably
sex them youself, purchase at least 6-10 to be sure of getting mixed sexes. I've
still got my original broodstock, but since they're bigger, I now keep them in a
70 gal. tank. The size tank you use depends on how many fish you're housing and
their size. The bigger the better. I'm sure if I had bigger quarters mine would
breed more often and more consistently. I mostly feed 38% protein floating
pellets but I supplement with frozen brine shrimp and earthworms. I try to keep
them full but hungry, not fat.
After struggling with ways to stop bullying on the part of the male, I've
made a tank divider from a piece of plastic "eggcrate" (flourescent light
diffuser) in which I cut a hole just big enough for the females to slip through.
The male, being larger, must stay on his side. This allows the females to escape
from the male's aggression and easily solved the problem. Moving fish to
isolation tanks disrupts breeding and stresses the fish.
When I see a female with a mouthful of eggs (it's pretty obvious-her buccal
pouch is distended, she continually rolls the eggs, and won't eat) I note the
date and 8-10 days later I carefully net her and transfer her to a 10 gallon
tank where I gently open her mouth and swish her back and forth in the water,
releasing the fry. I then place her back with the harem. I used to move the
female as soon as I noticed her carrying eggs but she almost invariably spit
them out and frequently would not pick them back up. Now, if she spits the fry,
it's a simple matter to siphon them up and transfer them to the fry tank. Once
the yolk sacs disappear and the fry are free-swimming, I start feeding a 43%
protein powder. I also keep them in a bare tank with a well-aged sponge filter
and luxurious algae growth, both of which the tiny fry feed upon. I do 50%
water changes at least once a week, more often as they grow and eat more. Small
tanks are best for the newborns as they can more easily locate their food but as
they grow and become crowded I move them to larger tanks.
The real bottleneck in raising tilapia is not in housing the broodstock, but
in housing the fry until they're large enough to move to the aquaponic tank. I
usually keep them in tanks for 2 or 3 months, or until they're big enough to eat
3/16th" pellets. In the summer I keep them outdoors in large vats made from
railroad ties with pond liners and a large sponge filter, but this time of year
I keep them indoors and never have enough room. Ideally, I'd like to have a
section of my aquaponic vat specifically for fry, but haven't figured out how to
keep them from being sucked up in the pump.
All of my tanks are bare with sponge filters and are kept at 80-85 F. Bare
tanks are much easier to keep clean and sponge filters are cheap, effective, low
maintenance, and give much more flexibility than UG filters. I keep several
extra sponges going all the time for emergencies or just for extra
biofiltration.
Lights over the breeders are on for 12 hrs.
As the fry get bigger, I use powerheads with sponges attached (rinsed every
day or two) for particulate removal and I have a couple of power filters which I
use as the fry get larger and consume more. I do weekly water changes.
Breeding tilapia is really pretty easy. The hard part is keeping up with the
hungry masses of fry. Good luck.
Gordon
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Subject: Pacu (was Breeding tilapia)
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:34:27 -0600
Chris,
Have you been trying to breed Pacu, or just raise them?
I've raised a few in my system and I'm pretty excited about them. They
grow really fast, get BIG, and I like their taste better than tilapia. It has
more flavor and is buttery without being greasy.. The biggest drawback is the
floating bones which are impossible to remove when filleting but in a big Pacu
they're not too objectionable.
My vats are beneath my walkways so I don't have problems with jumping and,
while I've noticed some flightiness, they calm down quickly if not disturbed
frequently. I think Pacu have great potential as a cultured food species.
Gordon
Chris Hedemark wrote:
> I have personally been trying my hand at raising Pacu as food fish.
> Word of warning - they are extremely flighty even into their adulthood.
> The tank must be well covered.
>
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Subject: Re: Breeding Tilapia (Was Model rocketry)
From: "Lloyd R. Prentice"
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:59:55 -0500
Gordon Watkins wrote:
>
> Lloyd,
> I've been breeding tilapia for a couple of years now. Here's how I do it:
Many thanks for the inspiring details. I I'll give it a try -- though
clearly I'm going to have to devote more space than I'd originally
thought.
I've followed your many knowledgable contributions to the list and
deeply appreciate them.
Best wishes,
Lloyd
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Subject: Creosote Ties
From: Dave Miller
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:22:13 -0500
Gordon,
Be veeeeery careful with the railroad ties. I assume they are under your
liners but be cautious as you are leaching creosote, a known carcinogen
into the surrounding soil. It moves slowly, slower than a motor oil
spill yet faster than arsenic from pressure treated lumber. Do look
into containment as best as you can. And look into back issues of
Organic Garden from Rodale in Pa. I believe the article was from June
or July of 1997. I can look for the issue if you want.
Should you ever develop a hole in the liner, move the fish to a fresh
tank and do extra water changes if necessary. My mom was heavily
poisoned by creosote in 1977 while treating cedar shakes for a shed we
were building. She failed to use rubber gloves and was dipping the
shakes into a vat to soak. She was hospitalized several hours later.
She later had her thyroid removed and many years later developed ovarian
cancer. No one knows the connection. (Incidentally, she never had
chemo nor radiation but did have the cancer removed AND has changed to a
mostly organic/vegetarian diet. She remains active and healthy and is
currently writing a book about her experience...)
I know I may come off as the alarmist in this group but I feel strong
enough to protect people I feel I know yet have never personally met!
Railroad ties have been banned for years at least in NJ, except for
trains, of course. And I personally won't work with pressure treated
lumber to build a deck; I advise those who do to wear masks and seal the
lumber. Kids drop food, pick it up and eat it. I know, the transfer
rate is probably small but what about playing on a jungle gym?
Off track, a bit, I hope to volley right back to optimum growing
conditions for the tilapia!!! Your descriptions are very thorough and I
am sure the list appreciates your checklist...I do.
--
Dave
A "green" home remodeler
A father of 2 cockatiels
An organic farmer
A veggie drummer/keyboardist
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