Aquaponics Digest - Tue 02/09/99
Message 1: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 2: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
from Gordon Watkins
Message 3: Re: Fresh Water Crays in Aquaponics
from Gordon Watkins
Message 4: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
from Gordon Watkins
Message 5: RE: other crayfish questions
from Alejandro Gallardo Valencia
Message 6: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 7: Re: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
from Wayne Straughan
Message 8: Re: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
from Gordon Watkins
Message 9: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 10: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 11: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from jilli and lars
Message 12: Re: Biogas Series
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 13: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
from Michael Strates
Message 14: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 15: Re: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
from "Palchik"
Message 16: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
from Michael Strates
Message 17: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 18: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from "Palchik"
Message 19: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
from "Palchik"
Message 20: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from jilli and lars
Message 21: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from doelle
Message 22: Re: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
from doelle
Message 23: RE:Pool turning into
from "Paul T. Juckniess"
Message 24: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 25: Autralian Crayfish information
from "Oscar Orbegoso Montalva" <4rtpp@viaexpresa.com.pe>
Message 26: Re: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
from Gordon Watkins
Message 27: Re: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
from Gordon Watkins
Message 28: RE: sourcing yabbies from oz
from Andrew
Message 29: RE: Fresh Water Crays in Aquaponics
from Andrew
Message 30: RE: Pool turning into Reality
from Andrew
Message 31: RE: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
from Andrew
Message 32: RE: Redclaw Sources in Oz
from Andrew
Message 33: RE: Pool turning into Reality
from Andrew
Message 34: Re: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
from Gordon Watkins
Message 35: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from Michael Strates
Message 36: RE:Pool turning into
from Michael Strates
Message 37: (no subject)
from baskets@vzinet.com (baskets@vzinet.com)
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:15:14 -0400 (AST)
In aquaponics there is never a need to sterilize, disinfect, or sand filter
bacteria from a living system. Bacteria provide ecological balance. Any
attempt to remove them would be counterproductive. The vast majority of
bacteria in these systems are either beneficial or neutral. Without them
aquaponic systems don't work. Over the years we occasionally had to dive
into the rearing tanks to fix holes or clean screens. No one has ever gotten
sick. There's too much paranoia about pathogens these days. Did any one
happen to see George Carlon's special ("You Are All Diseased") on HBO last
Saturday? If so, I share his philosophy. Jim R.
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:06:34 -0600
The greatest advantage to Redclaw over US native crays is size. Redclaw will
grow up to 14 oz. in 2 years, compared to 1 oz for natives. In addition
Redclaw yield over twice the percentage of edible tail meat.
Gordon
"Lloyd R. Prentice" wrote:
> What are the advantages of Yabbies over native (US) crayfish?
>
> Lloyd R. Prentice
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: Fresh Water Crays in Aquaponics
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:21:40 -0600
I was told this in a personal conversation with Dr David Rauss of Auburn Univ.,
reportedly one of the foremost authorities on raising redclaw in the US. Some
preliminary research he had done indicated growth suppression of tilapia grown
in polyculture with redclaw, not from aggression but from some unidentified
source, perhaps a chemical produced by the crays. To my knowledge no additional
research was done to narrow it down.
A few comments on Red Claw crawfish. Cherax quadricarinatus are a
tropical species from northern Australia and grow best at water temps of
70 to 90 F, 85 being optimum and 50 being lethal. They tolerate a wide
range of water conditions: DO >1 ppm; hardness 20-300ppm; pH 6.5-9;
chloride 50ppm and above. They breed readily in captivity and can reach
a weight of 2 to 4 oz in 5 to 7 months and up to 14 oz in 2 years. 30%
of their weight is edible meat and, while the market is undeveloped in
the US, I've spoken with growers who were selling them live for the same
price as lobster. They are the least aggressive of the giant crawfish
and can tolerate stocking densities of 10,000 to 12,000 per surface acre
(.25-.3 per sq ft). Being omnivourous detritivours, they can be fed a
wide range of inexpensive food stuffs, including hay and other
decomposing plant materials. They are attracted to moving water and can
be harvested with flow traps.
A useful little publication is "Red Claw - Raising the Giant Australian
Freshwater Crayfish" by David O'Sullivan, ISBN 0-9631526-3-7, available from
Amazon. Also the Southern Regional Aquaculture Center has publication #244,
"Australian Red Claw Crayfish" available. There was a website at
http://badgerstate.com/JAWS/faqs/redclaw_farming.htm
One caveat - redclaw are susceptible to Crayfish Plague, a fungal disease
carried by all US native crays. I tried raising 100 redclaw only to have them
all slowly perish over a couple of months. I suspect Plague, although I never
confirmed it, due to contamination of my spring water with wild crays.
I know Rebecca Nelson was raising a few adults sucessfully in California.
Maybe she can provide an update.
Gordon
Wendy Nagurny wrote:
> Really? I wonder why. I know that Red Claws will harass fish in a mixed
> species tank, but would they do harm in separate tanks that are just on the
> same recirculating loop?
> Wendy
>
> >Some studies indicate that Red Claw crayfish might suppress the growth of
> >tilapia in polyculture systems. Don't know about Yabbies.
> >
> > Gordon
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Subject: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:31:34 -0600
If anyone is interested, I have available the draft recommendations of
the National Organic Standards Board (NOSB) on aquatic livestock
standards for certified organic production. The NOSB invites comments
prior to approval and incorporation into the Final Rule. It's about 3
pages long so I hesitate to post it to the entire list unless there is
interest but contact me directly for a copy, which also includes
critique and comments from The Organic Forum.
Gordon
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Subject: RE: other crayfish questions
From: Alejandro Gallardo Valencia
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:37:51 -0600
Brett:
I would strongly recomend buying your breeding stock, not only because =
it's easier to ensure breeding and quality, but because you also ensure =
good health of your stock. If you catch them you may not get the =
adiquate male - female proportion.
Male crustacea, including decapoda (wich crayfish are) have a pair of =
apedix in their abdomen (just below their cefalotorax) called gonopodia. =
=20
Best regards.
Alejandro
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:41:51 EST
Hello, I would like to know if it is possible to line a fish tank with 6 mil
greenhouse poly, either doubled or tripled, also is it toxic to fish? Also
does anyone know if there is a market for tilapia in Georgia? What size and
shape would you recommend for someone just starting out? One last question,
are above ground swimming pool liners toxic to fish? I am 46 years old and I
have recently been disabled, I am too young to just quit, I am trying to find
a way to be productive and supplement my income. I have always been fascinated
with fish and with greenhouses and I'm exploring the possibilities of
aquaponics. Your input would be greatly appreciated. Ken at Lott's landing.
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Subject: Re: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
From: Wayne Straughan
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:16:26 -0800 (PST)
Yes I would be interested in a copy-thanks.
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 12:25:37 -0600
The Organic Forum:
Facilitated by Eric Kindberg
erorganic
Comments on Aquatic Livestock Draft Recommendations
We encourage you to expess your informed thoughts on this issue to the NOSB
Livestock Committee and the USDA/NOP.
To The Livestock Committee of the National Organic Standards Board
Reference: Comments on the Draft Recommendations for Organic
Aquaculture
January 25, 1999
Dear members,
We have reviewed the Livestock Draft Recommendations below. We, as
certified
organic farmers differ with the Committee's recommendation and fell the
Draft
Recommendations are some places are in inconsistent with the language and
intent of the Organic Foods Production Act of 1990. We strongly support the
implementation of organic standards, the organic wild crop management plan
and
the certification of wild crop livestock sites for wild aquatic livestock in
the USDA/NOP's Final Rule. A USDA/NOP organic aquaculture standard should
encompass both pond, river, bathtub and ocean raised aquatic livestock as
well
as wild crop production of aquatic livestock.
Comments are underlined in the text below.
Best regards,
Eric Kindberg, certified organic farmer
NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD
ORGANIC AQUACULTURE STANDARDS
Second draft written by Frederick Kirschenmann
Date Submitted: October 20, 1998
Purpose: For review and revision by the NOSB Livestock Committee and
submission to the NOSB
AUTHORIZED METHODS AND MATERIALS FOR
THE PRODUCTION OF ORGANIC FINFISH and SHELLFISH
A. GENERAL REQUIREMENTS
I. Fish shall be reared in a habitat that meets the basic physiological
requirements and behavioral needs of the species being grown.
2. To avoid escapes of domestically reared fish into the wild, and wild fish
entering a farm, only enclosed, self-contained, ponds and other facilities
will be allowed. Netcages and netpens are not allowed.
Comment:
In pond raised organic aquaculture we feel for each fish rearing pond or
series of rearing ponds, there should be a sediment pond or ponds of similar
size that the rearing pond water flows into before the water exits to the
environment. A similar size sediment pond where fish are not purposely
raised
offers a degree of protection against environmental contamination from fish
wastes, and the more likelihood of preventing disease and parasite
contamination of the fish rearing pond. Sediment ponds offer an effective
slowing down of the entrance of unwanted fish and wild aquatic livestock
into
the fish rearing pond(s).
B. FEED
1. Feed components must be produced in accordance with USDA
organic standards for livestock feed.
2. Plant-based feed sources must be from organic production.
3. Only feeds with low fishmeal content are allowed (no more than 20%)
Comments:
We believe that 1 and 2 above unduly restricts the sources of protein for
feeding aquatic livestock. Wild harvest aquaculture products are allowed
for
crop fertility on organic farms under OFPA and in the private sector
certification standards now. The requirement we feel that offers a
safeguard
from possible feed contamination of wild harvested aquatic products is to
require random sample testing from each 2000 pounds of wild aquatic feed.
Item 4 below is in contradiction with Item 1 above. Item 1 requires all
feed
to be from "organically produced" sources, while item 4, below, allows non-
organically produced feed.
4. Fishmeal and fish oil must be sourced from waste products of processed
wild, marine fish or from certified organic fish farms. Fishmeal and fishoil
obtained from wild caught fish will not be allowed.
Comment:
The last sentence of item 4 does not seem to be logically supportable and
places an undue burden on organic aquatic livestock producers. The sentence
should be removed.
5. Artificial colors, binders and synthetic astaxanthin are prohibited.
6. Antibiotics in feed and extrudents from fishmeal are prohibited.
7. Feed additives, with the exception of minerals, vitamins, phaffia yeast,
and enzymes of natural origin, are prohibited.
Comment:
Item 7 should be rewritten to be consistent with OFPA and the National List
process. Vitamins and minerals, livestock parasiticides and medicines used
in
organic aquatic livestock production must be petitioned, reviewed and
included
on the National List by specific use and application. Under OFPA "Phaffia
yeast" and "enzymes of natural origin," unless they are "organically
produced"
are not allowed to be fed as feed supplements to aquatic livestock producing
"organically produced" livestock products. Under OFPA, there are no
categories for "feed supplements" or "feed additives" open for inclusion on
the National List.
C. ENVIRONMENT
1. Organic fish farms shall be managed to make optimum use of nutrients and
minimize waste. This can best be accomplished by creating diversified fish
farms, including more than one species and recycling freshwater aquaculture
effluents into cropping systems. If aquaculture effluents are not recycled,
farmers must employ practices to prevent the discharge of wastewater
containing excessive levels of nutrients (e.g. constructing settling ponds,
etc.)
2. Water used in fresh water farms must meet EPA water quality standards and
must be monitored daily for ideal environment (e.g. ammonia, nitrate &
oxygen
levels, salinity, pH etc.)
[We may want to specify water quality standards more specifically and add
quality standards for saltwater farms]
3. Stock densities shall be limited to 10 kg of fish per cubic meter of
water.
4. When predator control becomes necessary, only non-lethal means shall be
used.
5. All pipe lines, tanks and water reservoirs shall be free of lead (Pb),
impregnating materials, or other substances which have the potential to harm
fish, humans or the environment.
Comment:
Items 1 through 5 represent micro-management of organic aquaculture and
should
be removed from the Draft Recommendation. Stocking rates have not been
applied to any other livestock and to retain consistency should not be
applied
to aquatic livestock. Organic aquatic producers as all organic farmers must
conform to governmental regulations related to producing food products.
There
is no need to further detail those requirements, but at the most only to
state
certified organic farmers must conform to all government regulations.
D. ORIGIN, BREEDING OFffFOCK-
1. Organisms that have been genetically manipulated (e.g. triploiding,
gynogenesis, etc.) or that have been subjected to hormone treatment are
prohibited.
Comment:
Item 1, above, states the general requirements for the production of
"organically produced" livestock products found in OFPA and should be found
as
general statements in the USDA/NOP's Final Rule. They do not need to be
reiterated herein.
2. Fish stocks (eggs, hens, parrs, smolts, etc.) shall be sourced from
certified organic fish farms. If organic stock is not available, stock may
be
procured from conventional farms provided that they meet the requirements
under D 1 of this section and that two thirds of their lifespan is under
organic management.
Comment:
Allowing one third of the lifespan of aquatic livestock from which
"organically produced" products are derived to not be under organic
management
nor organically fed is inconsistent with OFPA and the NOSB recommendations
for
raising of organic livestock. Aquatic livestock should be treated similar
to
poultry, having to be raised under organic management and fed "organically
produced" from the day old status.
3. Mutilation is not allowed, including for the purpose of inducing
reproduction (e.g. eyestock ablation in shrimp)
Comment:
Consistency in organic livestock production standards should be practiced
here. "Mutilation" by tail docking, ear tagging, caponizing, branding,
castrating are allowed in organically fed livestock. Why prohibit
mutilations
only in organically managed aquatic livestock.
E. HEALTH CARE
1. As in any organic system, health in aquaculture systems shall be
maintained
principally through prevention. Biosecurity measures to prevent the
introduction of disease from the wild (and vice vets) shall be required.
2. The routine use of any synthetic chemical substances, hormones, or
antibiotics is strictly prohibited. If such have to be used as an emergency
for disease control, the treated fish must be sold as non-organic. Natural
vaccines and natural immunostimulants (e.g. yeast, fungi, etc.) are are
allowed.
3. Hydrogen Peroxide, sodium chloride, quicklime or potassium permanganate
are
allowed for parasite control.
Comment:
The first sentence of item 2 above speaking of subtherupeutic use does not
need to be restated as these details are stated in OFPA as applicable to all
livestock. The second sentence of Item 2 speaks to thereuputic use of
medicines, and does not take into consideration the OFPA National List
petition process for the use of livestock medicines. It would be a
violation
for the USDA/NOP to outlaw a standard or process that is mandated to take
place under OFPA.
Item 3 substances, if natural, are all allowed unless prohibited on the
National List. All synthetic parasiticides must be petitioned, reviewed,
evaluated and included on the National List by specific use or application
in
aquatic and all livestock.
Both 2 and 3 should be removed from the Draft Recommendations.
F. HARVESTING
1. The killing procedure shall be as expeditious and stress free as
possible.
Methods such as concussion, carbon dioxide, electrocution, etc. may be used
as
appropriate to the species. Water temperature should be gradually lowered
to
4 degrees centigrade prior to killing.
Comment:
What is the reasoning behind reducing water temperature to 4 degrees
centigrade prior to killing? Is this the standard of the industry?
2. Fish processing must conform to all FDA regulations for fish and
fishery
products (Federal Register 60 FR 65095)
added: A section on siting (suitable private lands, public lands, etc.) ].
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:48:36 -0400 (AST)
>Hello, I would like to know if it is possible to line a fish tank with 6 mil
>greenhouse poly, either doubled or tripled, also is it toxic to fish?
It is better to use 20 or 30 mil low or high density polyethylene liners.
These are black liners that will last 15 or more years. The plasticizers in
vinyl pool liners are initially toxic to fish. The liners must be aged a
week or two preferrably with some bad water, high in organic content. Then
dump this water and the tanks should be O.K. Vinyl is a pain though.
Nutsedge can grow through it producing small holes and big leaks. After it
ages it will shrink and crack upon drying.
Also
>does anyone know if there is a market for tilapia in Georgia?
Use round tanks. Your best bet is to aim at a small niche market such as
direct sales to a few restuarants. The bottom just dropped out of the live
haul market (price wars) and it's hard to compete in the commodity market
for fillets. Good luck. Jim
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:59:56 -0500
Are Redclaw and yabbies one and the same? Who was it that had
problems with cannibalism of redclaw babies on this list?
Adrian
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: jilli and lars
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:03:29 -0800
Hi Ken -
I moved from Atlanta about a year ago, but i remember they sold live
tilapia at the Dekalb International Farmer's Market near Decatur (for eating,
though i suppose you could aquire a starter / practice breeding stock that way).
They had large tanks full of them next to the lobsters and catfish. I'd seen
them
in other 'farmers markets' around the city as well. This suggests to me a
healthy
market. However this also suggests some competition - you might wanna see
who else
is in the biz in the area.
What kind of restaurants serve tilapia anyway? - maybe you could go for
more of a specific niche? How far are you from Atlanta?
Of course, catfish are a big market in the south. Has anyone tried
raising
catfish in an aquaculture system? What kind of requirements do catfish have?
And , as I'm sure you know, there is also a big market for 'crawdads' in
the south, though typically people go for the native species, (ie. trying to
get a
redclaw market established might take time). They sell them live at the farmer's
market as well. (Have you been to the dekalb farmer's market? - its a great
place,
really good food, though calling it a farmer's market is a bit of a stretch
- its
more like a gourmet wholesale place that lets in the public.)
more questions than answers i suppose, but i hope this helps.
Lars
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Subject: Re: Biogas Series
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:37:56, -0500
Dear Michael
Please send me your pop bottle digester plans?
Thank you
Jean
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Subject: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
From: Michael Strates
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:42:32 +1100 (EST)
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Adriana Gutierrez wrote:
AG> Are Redclaw and yabbies one and the same? Who was it that had
AG> problems with cannibalism of redclaw babies on this list?
Redclaw (Cherax quadricarinatus) are from Northern Australia, and require
high water temperatures in order to survive and breed.
The common Yabbie (Cherax distructor) is from the other end of Australia,
and is native to Victoria. Yabbies can survive in anything. They don't
grow as big as lobsters, however - some of the blue yabbies can be
extreemly expensive, juveniles going for as high as $12/each.
--
e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates
See keyservers for PGP info. Linux! The OS of my Choice!
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."
- Leonardo da Vinci, and below an extract from John Fogerty's song:
Hey, Tonight - Gonna be tonight- Don't you know I'm flyin'- Tonight
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Subject: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:05:01, -0500
How cold of water will Yabbies continue growing bigger in?
Jean
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Subject: Re: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
From: "Palchik"
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:59:01 +0200
Mr Gordon;
I am interested on receive a copy of the NOSB.
My fax Number: 972 6 6391018
Kibbutz Maayan Zvi
30805 Israel
Whith many thanks
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Subject: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
From: Michael Strates
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:24:24 +1100 (EST)
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, MS JEAN R SHAFFER wrote:
MJRS> How cold of water will Yabbies continue growing bigger in?
I've had them in water as cold as 50 before. They could probably even go
lower, despite what the guides say. They've overwintered in one of my
ponds, so I suspect the water temperature got down to about 40 or lower
(or winters aren't that bad).
--
e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates
See keyservers for PGP info. Linux! The OS of my Choice!
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."
- Leonardo da Vinci, and below an extract from John Fogerty's song:
Hey, Tonight - Gonna be tonight- Don't you know I'm flyin'- Tonight
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| Message 17 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:54:31 EST
Can you raise Crawfish in tanks? If so what size tank would be required?
thanks Ken
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| Message 18 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: "Palchik"
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:11:20 +0200
tank abaut 2 m3, for 60 crawfish.
-----Original Message-----
From: KLOTTTRUE
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: éåí øáéòé 10 ôáøåàø 1999 00:02
Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
>Can you raise Crawfish in tanks? If so what size tank would be required?
>thanks Ken
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| Message 19 |
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Subject: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
From: "Palchik"
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:13:52 +0200
16 Centigrate.
-----Original Message-----
From: MS JEAN R SHAFFER
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: éåí ùìéùé 09 ôáøåàø 1999 23:07
Subject: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
>How cold of water will Yabbies continue growing bigger in?
>
>Jean
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| Message 20 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: jilli and lars
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:41:31 -0800
I don't see any reason why not, but i don't know for sure.
Anybody know details of raising crawfish in tanks?
lars
KLOTTTRUE wrote:
> Can you raise Crawfish in tanks? If so what size tank would be required?
> thanks Ken
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| Message 21 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: doelle
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:18:31 +1100
I am absolutely amased abnout this statement. It is the same than 'Do not
worry of throwing away a burning cigarette. There is too much paranoia that
a fire occurs from MY cigarette'.
I sincerely hope that you know and what risks you are taking of telling
people not to worry about pathogens in water.
Of course you do not need to sterilise everything as you want to use the
good microbes to do the work for you, PROVIDED YOU TAKE CARE THAT YOU DO NOT
USE POLLUTED WATER FULL OF PATHOGENS FOR YOUR AQUAPONICS.
We are talking mostly of TREATMENT and NOT Sterilisation. There is a
distinct difference.
With best wishes for your good health
Horst Doelle
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Subject: Re: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
From: doelle
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:20:51 +1100
Gordon,
Would you be so kind and send me the 3-page report ?
Many thanks Horst
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| Message 23 |
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Subject: RE:Pool turning into
From: "Paul T. Juckniess"
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:57:05 -0600 (CST)
I would look into ozone. I understand that is is widely used in europe
to remove pathogens in drinking water. It has been used in aquaculture
and I've seen it here in the US on some hot tubs.
You need to research it generation and use.
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Paul T. Juckniess III | Thunder is impressive. But it is
pjucknie@mail.coin.missouri.edu | lightning that does the work.
Voice: (573) 886-1214 | Mark Twain
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| Message 24 |
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Subject: Re: Redclaw Sources in Oz
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 19:34:05 -0500
Yabbies sound like Tilapia, they thrive in poor conditions, warm
temperatures, low oxygen and overcrowding. I wonder if yabbies
are allowed in the US?
Adriana
> The common Yabbie (Cherax distructor) is from the other end of Australia,
> and is native to Victoria. Yabbies can survive in anything. They don't
> grow as big as lobsters, however - some of the blue yabbies can be
> extreemly expensive, juveniles going for as high as $12/each.
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| Message 25 |
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Subject: Autralian Crayfish information
From: "Oscar Orbegoso Montalva" <4rtpp@viaexpresa.com.pe>
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 19:46:03 -0500
Dear friends:
Please visit this important site about autralian crayfish, there is a
lot of information
Best regards
http://www.wa.gov.au/westfish/aqua/broc/aquainfo/aquainfo.html
--
Oscar Orbegoso
Asesor
Proyecto 4 Regiones en Perú (4 Regions Project)
Programa de Fomento de la competitividad a la Pequeña y Mediana Empresa
en TURISMO, AGROINDUSTRIA Y ACUICULTURA (Improvement of Competitiveness
in small business in TOURISM, INDUSTRY AND AQUACULTURE)
Cooperación entre (Cooperation between) MITINCI, GTZ/Integration GmbH +
Recursos S.A. y Camara de Comercio y Producción de San Martín.
camaratpp@viaexpresa.com.pe
Oficinas del Proyecto en:
Trujillo (Coordinador General: Christian Doebel)
propy4re@norteq.lima.net.pe
Cajamarca: (Asesor: Oscar Santisteban K.)
ccpc@mail.cosapidata.com.pe
Pucallpa: (Asesor: Tanquilino Saavedra )
lino@computextos.com.pe
Lima: (Coordinador: Ramón Ponce Monteza)
Recursos S.A.
recursos@amauta.rcp.net.pe
VISITENOS (VISIT US)
Caja de Herramientas para pymes en (Toolbox for small business)
http://www.mitinci.gob.pe/gtz
Restaurant Real Grill en Tarapoto (One of our customers)
http://members.spree.com/sip/realgrill/real.htm
Acuicultura de San Martín (Aquaculture in San Martin)
http://members.spree.com/business/colunga/AquacultureSM/SM1.html
Tarapoto, el encanto de una Selva diferente y amistosa!
Tarapoto, the charm of a really different rainforest!
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| Message 26 |
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Subject: Re: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:16:47 -0600
The Organic Forum:
Facilitated by Eric Kindberg
erorganic
Comments on Aquatic Livestock Draft Recommendations
We encourage you to expess your informed thoughts on this issue to the NOSB
Livestock Committee and the USDA/NOP.
To The Livestock Committee of the National Organic Standards Board
Reference: Comments on the Draft Recommendations for Organic
Aquaculture
January 25, 1999
Dear members,
We have reviewed the Livestock Draft Recommendations below. We, as
certified
organic farmers differ with the Committee's recommendation and fell the
Draft
Recommendations are some places are in inconsistent with the language and
intent of the Organic Foods Production Act of 1990. We strongly support
the
implementation of organic standards, the organic wild crop management plan
and
the certification of wild crop livestock sites for wild aquatic livestock
in
the USDA/NOP's Final Rule. A USDA/NOP organic aquaculture standard should
encompass both pond, river, bathtub and ocean raised aquatic livestock as
well
as wild crop production of aquatic livestock.
Comments are underlined in the text below.
Best regards,
Eric Kindberg, certified organic farmer
NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD
ORGANIC AQUACULTURE STANDARDS
Second draft written by Frederick Kirschenmann
Date Submitted: October 20, 1998
Purpose: For review and revision by the NOSB Livestock Committee and
submission to the NOSB
AUTHORIZED METHODS AND MATERIALS FOR
THE PRODUCTION OF ORGANIC FINFISH and SHELLFISH
A. GENERAL REQUIREMENTS
I. Fish shall be reared in a habitat that meets the basic physiological
requirements and behavioral needs of the species being grown.
2. To avoid escapes of domestically reared fish into the wild, and wild
fish
entering a farm, only enclosed, self-contained, ponds and other facilities
will be allowed. Netcages and netpens are not allowed.
Comment:
In pond raised organic aquaculture we feel for each fish rearing pond or
series of rearing ponds, there should be a sediment pond or ponds of
similar
size that the rearing pond water flows into before the water exits to the
environment. A similar size sediment pond where fish are not purposely
raised
offers a degree of protection against environmental contamination from fish
wastes, and the more likelihood of preventing disease and parasite
contamination of the fish rearing pond. Sediment ponds offer an effective
slowing down of the entrance of unwanted fish and wild aquatic livestock
into
the fish rearing pond(s).
B. FEED
1. Feed components must be produced in accordance with USDA
organic standards for livestock feed.
2. Plant-based feed sources must be from organic production.
3. Only feeds with low fishmeal content are allowed (no more than 20%)
Comments:
We believe that 1 and 2 above unduly restricts the sources of protein for
feeding aquatic livestock. Wild harvest aquaculture products are allowed
for
crop fertility on organic farms under OFPA and in the private sector
certification standards now. The requirement we feel that offers a
safeguard
from possible feed contamination of wild harvested aquatic products is to
require random sample testing from each 2000 pounds of wild aquatic feed.
Item 4 below is in contradiction with Item 1 above. Item 1 requires all
feed
to be from "organically produced" sources, while item 4, below, allows non-
organically produced feed.
4. Fishmeal and fish oil must be sourced from waste products of processed
wild, marine fish or from certified organic fish farms. Fishmeal and
fishoil
obtained from wild caught fish will not be allowed.
Comment:
The last sentence of item 4 does not seem to be logically supportable and
places an undue burden on organic aquatic livestock producers. The
sentence
should be removed.
5. Artificial colors, binders and synthetic astaxanthin are prohibited.
6. Antibiotics in feed and extrudents from fishmeal are prohibited.
7. Feed additives, with the exception of minerals, vitamins, phaffia yeast,
and enzymes of natural origin, are prohibited.
Comment:
Item 7 should be rewritten to be consistent with OFPA and the National List
process. Vitamins and minerals, livestock parasiticides and medicines used
in
organic aquatic livestock production must be petitioned, reviewed and
included
on the National List by specific use and application. Under OFPA "Phaffia
yeast" and "enzymes of natural origin," unless they are "organically
produced"
are not allowed to be fed as feed supplements to aquatic livestock
producing
"organically produced" livestock products. Under OFPA, there are no
categories for "feed supplements" or "feed additives" open for inclusion on
the National List.
C. ENVIRONMENT
1. Organic fish farms shall be managed to make optimum use of nutrients and
minimize waste. This can best be accomplished by creating diversified fish
farms, including more than one species and recycling freshwater aquaculture
effluents into cropping systems. If aquaculture effluents are not recycled,
farmers must employ practices to prevent the discharge of wastewater
containing excessive levels of nutrients (e.g. constructing settling ponds,
etc.)
2. Water used in fresh water farms must meet EPA water quality standards
and
must be monitored daily for ideal environment (e.g. ammonia, nitrate &
oxygen
levels, salinity, pH etc.)
[We may want to specify water quality standards more specifically and add
quality standards for saltwater farms]
3. Stock densities shall be limited to 10 kg of fish per cubic meter of
water.
4. When predator control becomes necessary, only non-lethal means shall be
used.
5. All pipe lines, tanks and water reservoirs shall be free of lead (Pb),
impregnating materials, or other substances which have the potential to
harm
fish, humans or the environment.
Comment:
Items 1 through 5 represent micro-management of organic aquaculture and
should
be removed from the Draft Recommendation. Stocking rates have not been
applied to any other livestock and to retain consistency should not be
applied
to aquatic livestock. Organic aquatic producers as all organic farmers
must
conform to governmental regulations related to producing food products.
There
is no need to further detail those requirements, but at the most only to
state
certified organic farmers must conform to all government regulations.
D. ORIGIN, BREEDING OFffFOCK-
1. Organisms that have been genetically manipulated (e.g. triploiding,
gynogenesis, etc.) or that have been subjected to hormone treatment are
prohibited.
Comment:
Item 1, above, states the general requirements for the production of
"organically produced" livestock products found in OFPA and should be found
as
general statements in the USDA/NOP's Final Rule. They do not need to be
reiterated herein.
2. Fish stocks (eggs, hens, parrs, smolts, etc.) shall be sourced from
certified organic fish farms. If organic stock is not available, stock may
be
procured from conventional farms provided that they meet the requirements
under D 1 of this section and that two thirds of their lifespan is under
organic management.
Comment:
Allowing one third of the lifespan of aquatic livestock from which
"organically produced" products are derived to not be under organic
management
nor organically fed is inconsistent with OFPA and the NOSB recommendations
for
raising of organic livestock. Aquatic livestock should be treated similar
to
poultry, having to be raised under organic management and fed "organically
produced" from the day old status.
3. Mutilation is not allowed, including for the purpose of inducing
reproduction (e.g. eyestock ablation in shrimp)
Comment:
Consistency in organic livestock production standards should be practiced
here. "Mutilation" by tail docking, ear tagging, caponizing, branding,
castrating are allowed in organically fed livestock. Why prohibit
mutilations
only in organically managed aquatic livestock.
E. HEALTH CARE
1. As in any organic system, health in aquaculture systems shall be
maintained
principally through prevention. Biosecurity measures to prevent the
introduction of disease from the wild (and vice vets) shall be required.
2. The routine use of any synthetic chemical substances, hormones, or
antibiotics is strictly prohibited. If such have to be used as an emergency
for disease control, the treated fish must be sold as non-organic. Natural
vaccines and natural immunostimulants (e.g. yeast, fungi, etc.) are are
allowed.
3. Hydrogen Peroxide, sodium chloride, quicklime or potassium permanganate
are
allowed for parasite control.
Comment:
The first sentence of item 2 above speaking of subtherupeutic use does not
need to be restated as these details are stated in OFPA as applicable to
all
livestock. The second sentence of Item 2 speaks to thereuputic use of
medicines, and does not take into consideration the OFPA National List
petition process for the use of livestock medicines. It would be a
violation
for the USDA/NOP to outlaw a standard or process that is mandated to take
place under OFPA.
Item 3 substances, if natural, are all allowed unless prohibited on the
National List. All synthetic parasiticides must be petitioned, reviewed,
evaluated and included on the National List by specific use or application
in
aquatic and all livestock.
Both 2 and 3 should be removed from the Draft Recommendations.
F. HARVESTING
1. The killing procedure shall be as expeditious and stress free as
possible.
Methods such as concussion, carbon dioxide, electrocution, etc. may be used
as
appropriate to the species. Water temperature should be gradually lowered
to
4 degrees centigrade prior to killing.
Comment:
What is the reasoning behind reducing water temperature to 4 degrees
centigrade prior to killing? Is this the standard of the industry?
2. Fish processing must conform to all FDA regulations for fish and
fishery
products (Federal Register 60 FR 65095)
added: A section on siting (suitable private lands, public lands, etc.) ].
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| Message 28 |
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Subject: RE: sourcing yabbies from oz
From: Andrew
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:10:23 +1030
Aquaculture Advantage can help you if you can help us.
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 29 |
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Subject: RE: Fresh Water Crays in Aquaponics
From: Andrew
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:29:02 +1030
Hello,
Any books or videos you require for Australian natives can be bought =
through Aquaculture Advantage. Andrew is a colleague of Dos' and can =
send books from stock.
Aquaculture@technologist.com
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| Message 30 |
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Subject: RE: Pool turning into Reality
From: Andrew
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:18:44 +1030
Contact aquaculture Advantage at aquaculture@technologist.com.
-----Original Message-----
From: jilli and lars [SMTP:phlesch@sfo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 February 1999 8:12
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
I don't see any reason why not, but i don't know for sure.
Anybody know details of raising crawfish in tanks?
lars
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| Message 31 |
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Subject: RE: Organic Aquatic Livestock Recommendations
From: Andrew
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:16:43 +1030
Please send me the draft as well.
Andrew
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| Message 32 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: RE: Redclaw Sources in Oz
From: Andrew
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:57:40 +1030
Call Aquaculture Advantage for Yabbies and Marron supplies etc.
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| Message 33 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: RE: Pool turning into Reality
From: Andrew
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:46:53 +1030
Call Aquaculture Advantage in South Australia or E-mail Andrew.
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| Message 35 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: Michael Strates
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 03:01:01 +1100 (EST)
On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, doelle wrote:
d> I sincerely hope that you know and what risks you are taking of
d> telling people not to worry about pathogens in water.
I assume the major pathogens that we're contending with in the aquaponics
water are e.coli, legionella, cryptosporidium and giardia. I beleive 98.9%
of the common human pathogens can be killed just by heating the water at
or above 65 centigrade for more than five minutes.
However, by doing this .. you'll also kill the "goodies" of the bacterial
world.
d> the good microbes to do the work for you, PROVIDED YOU TAKE CARE
d> THAT YOU DO NOT USE POLLUTED WATER FULL OF PATHOGENS FOR YOUR
d> AQUAPONICS.
The above ground swimming pool (really a water tank) will be initially
filled with fresh, chlorinated water and over a three day period the
chlorine will dissipate, and we'll be left with hopefully almost sterile
water.
Will the good bacteria kill the bad bacteria, what is the story here? Is
there specific bacterial cultures which can selectively kill certain
pathogens? Replacing over about 1% of the total pool water per week in
this setup is impossible and also will cost alot of money. The pool itself
will take a good few days to fill with a hose.
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| Message 36 |
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Subject: RE:Pool turning into
From: Michael Strates
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 03:03:35 +1100 (EST)
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Paul T. Juckniess wrote:
PTJ> I would look into ozone. I understand that is is widely used in europe
PTJ> to remove pathogens in drinking water. It has been used in aquaculture
PTJ> and I've seen it here in the US on some hot tubs.
The generators are quite expensive. It also depends what kind of O3 you
want to make. Proper O3 decomposes into oxygen after a while, however O3
made from air decomposes into oxygen and nitrogen oxides (posionous).
--
e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates
See keyservers for PGP info. Linux! The OS of my Choice!
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."
- Leonardo da Vinci, and below an extract from John Fogerty's song:
Hey, Tonight - Gonna be tonight- Don't you know I'm flyin'- Tonight
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
|
