Aquaponics Digest - Fri 02/12/99
Message 1: Re: Solar Cells, NAI and Prez Carter
from jilli and lars
Message 2: Re: Aquaponic Suppliers
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 3: Re: Solar Cells, NAI and Prez Carter
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 4: Water Treatment
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 5: Lessons learned, was Re: Redclaw vs Tilapia
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 6: Re: Lessons learned, was Re: Redclaw vs Tilapia
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 7: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 8: Tilapia Tank Culture (James Rakocy)
from Alejandro Gallardo Valencia
Message 9: [iaq] Water Treatment
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 10: [iaq] Water Treatment
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 11: Re: Tilapia Tank Culture (James Rakocy)
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 12:
from Jon Hays
Message 13: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from David Beckham
Message 14: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 15: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from David Beckham
Message 16: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from Michael Strates
Message 17: RE: Tilapia Tank Culture (James Rakocy)
from Alejandro Gallardo Valencia
Message 18: Re: earthworm & pathogens?
from Michael Strates
Message 19: Re: Aquaponics systems safety, was Re: Pool turning into
eality
from "brett deiser"
Message 20: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from doelle
Message 21: Re: Pool turning into Reality
from doelle
Message 22: Re: Water Treatment
from doelle
Message 23: Aeration (was: Pool turning into Reality)
from Michael Strates
Message 24: Re: Pool turning into Reality (Aquaponic Apparel?
from "Fred Chambers, FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu"
regenerative@earthlink.net>
Message 25: Re: Solar Cells in production
from "Fred Chambers, FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu"
regenerative@earthlink.net>
Message 26: Re: Solar Cells in production
from Michael Strates
Message 27: Re: Pool turning into Reality (Aquaponic Apparel?
from Michael Strates
Message 28: Re: [iaq] Water Treatment
from "Marc S. Nameth"
Message 29: Re: Solar Cells in production
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 30: Re: [iaq] Water Treatment
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 31: Re: Solar Cells in production
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 32: Earthworms and Pathogens
from mdsenger@webtv.net (Michael Senger)
Message 33: Re: Solar Cells in production
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 34: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens
from Michael Strates
Message 35: Re: Solar Cells in production
from Michael Strates
Message 36: Re: Solar Cells in production
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 37: Re: [iaq] Water Treatment
from "Marc S. Nameth"
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: Solar Cells, NAI and Prez Carter
From: jilli and lars
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:24:29 -0800
James Rakocy, Ph.D. wrote:
> transform ammonia to nitrate. We once hooked up one of these "Sun-Lite"
> tanks to hydroponic beds (creating an aquaponic system) and produced 365
> lbs./crop at a final density of 81.6 kg/m3. The question is this: Do you
> want to produce 2 kg/m3, 17 kg/m3 or 81 kg/m3?
hi james -
Please excuse me if I misunderstood you, but are you saying that by
using
the translucent solar tanks combined with hydroponic 'filtering' you
achieved a
much higher tilapia density than with standard opaque-tank or pond
aquaponic
techniques?
>
I can't imagine that an increase in solar gain would _not_ be
beneficial
to filter feeders, especially ones that like warm water. If these
translucent
containers are of a comparable cost as opaque containers of comparable size
then
why not use them? They apparently increase growth and would probably reduce
heating costs.
When you say that you can't stand in these containers, which
variety of
tank are you referring to? There were some that looked flimsy, but many
looked
quite sturdy.
I've read a New Alchemy Insiitiute study presented at the 1981
Bio-Engineering Symposium for Fish Culture ("Solar Aquaculture: An
Ecological
Approach to Human Food Production") . I guess this is one of, if not _the_,
hype-fanning documents you're referring to. It's results were a very
thorough
charting and analysis of the chemistry of a minimal, closed biological syst
em,
ie. one of the first attempts to analyze the complex dynamics of contained
aquatic environments. I've always interpreted this study as a closed-system
experiment to isolate and demonstrate the positive effects of increases in
solar
absorbtion and the resultant increases in algae growth in aquaculture
systems,
not as an actual model for a _total_ aquaculture system.
By the way, a study titled "An Ecological Approach to a Water
Recirculating System for Salmonids: Preliminary Experience" (Kenneth T.
MacKay
and Wayne Van Toever) was also presented at the same symposium that year.
I'm
wondering if this was one of the first published studies of what
eventually
became 'aquaponics'. But I was 12 at the time, so i don't really know.
Anybody
else?
I sure miss the President Carter years....ahhh ...y'all remember
funding
for solar research? Alternative fuels? Schoolhouse Rock? No wars for
oil?.....
Lars Fields>
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: Aquaponic Suppliers
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:59:55 -0500
Steven,
Aquaponics is a blend of hydroponics and aquaculture. For
Aquaculture systems, check into Aquatic Ecosystems, for the
hydroponic components see Crop King. Both are available on the
web. They are by no means the only solutions, it will probably
be more cost-effective to put together a customized system
rather than buying something "off the shelf" as no two systems
are alike and there are many options.
Adriana
> Does anybody know suppliers of COMMERCIAL AQUAPONIC SYSTEMS?
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: Solar Cells, NAI and Prez Carter
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:16:44 -0400 (AST)
James Rakocy, Ph.D. wrote:
>
>
>
>> transform ammonia to nitrate. We once hooked up one of these "Sun-Lite"
>> tanks to hydroponic beds (creating an aquaponic system) and produced 365
>> lbs./crop at a final density of 81.6 kg/m3. The question is this: Do you
>> want to produce 2 kg/m3, 17 kg/m3 or 81 kg/m3?
>
>hi james -
>
> Please excuse me if I misunderstood you, but are you saying that
by
using
>the translucent solar tanks combined with hydroponic 'filtering' you
achieved a
>much higher tilapia density than with standard opaque-tank or pond
aquaponic
>techniques?
No, What I am saying is that this "Sun-Lite" tank used as an extensive
algae-based system will produce only about 10 lbs. of fish. If you take the
same tank, eliminate the algae and the solar concept, hook it up to a
correctly-sized hydroponic tank (in our case 200 ft by 4 ft), pump water
quickly through the system (in our case about a 30 minute exchange rate in
the rearing tank), feed heavily, and use the hydroponic tank for a
biofilter, you can increase production 36 times and move from a system that
is definitely not economically feasible to one that may be economically
feasible.
>
> I can't imagine that an increase in solar gain would _not_ be
beneficial
>to filter feeders, especially ones that like warm water. If these
ranslucent
>containers are of a comparable cost as opaque containers of comparable
size
then
>why not use them? They apparently increase growth and would probably
reduce
>heating costs.
Yes, it is beneficial. You go from 0.5 kg/m3 to about 2 kg/m3. You go from
producing 2.5 lbs. of fish to about 10 lbs. of fish, but either amount of
fish is insignificant for all the time and money spent unless you simply
want the tank as a heat sink and like to watch fish. In aquaponics, we
never
allow algae to growth because we want to channel all the waste nutrients
into valuable hydroponic plants. Also, without the algae the system is more
stable, no sudden die-offs.
>
> When you say that you can't stand in these containers, which
variety of
>tank are you referring to? There were some that looked flimsy, but many
looked
>quite sturdy.
We bought one made out of the thickest Kelwall and we did not feel it was
sturdy enough to climb into it or stand in it. You don't need to stand
anyway. We leaned over a netted the fish out with a long-handled net,
although this was hard on the back
>
> I've read a New Alchemy Insiitiute study presented at the 1981
>Bio-Engineering Symposium for Fish Culture ("Solar Aquaculture: An
Ecological
>Approach to Human Food Production") . I guess this is one of, if not
_the_,
>hype-fanning documents you're referring to. It's results were a very
thorough
>charting and analysis of the chemistry of a minimal, closed biological
system,
>ie. one of the first attempts to analyze the complex dynamics of contained
>aquatic environments. I've always interpreted this study as a
closed-system
>experiment to isolate and demonstrate the positive effects of increases in
solar
>absorbtion and the resultant increases in algae growth in aquaculture
systems,
>not as an actual model for a _total_ aquaculture system.
The data was exhaustive and accurate, but in my opinion there was too much
data for an artificial system that never had a chance of practical use.
That
amazing effort should have been directed to algal-based pond aquaculture or
algal-based wastewater treatment, systems that are in wide use today. I
hope
I don't appear to be too critical because one never knows where scientific
insights will occur and I have certainly pursued research directions that
didn't succeed. I know many of the New Alchemy people and I know they look
back with nostalgia to those exciting days.
>
> By the way, a study titled "An Ecological Approach to a Water
>Recirculating System for Salmonids: Preliminary Experience" (Kenneth T.
MacKay
>and Wayne Van Toever) was also presented at the same symposium that year.
I'm
>wondering if this was one of the first published studies of what
eventually
>became 'aquaponics'. But I was 12 at the time, so i don't really know.
Anybody
>else?
>
It was not the first. I first saw the term "aquaponics" in an Alternative
Aquaculture Network (an offshoot of the Rodale project) newsletter article
in the late 80s. It's a very good term because before that we were calling
them integrated systems, which could refer to almost anything.
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: Water Treatment
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:20:13 -0700 (MST)
You said:"Ozone is certainly very effective, whereas one has to be careful
with UV, since UV can result in 'changed or mutated ' pathogens. For your
purpose, however, uv certainly will help. In comparing both methods I
think that ozone is more effective. However, I have not done a comparative
experiments. I am a bit suspicious about using UV, the reason of which is
simply that we used to use UV for producing mutants."
__________________________________________________________________________
Horst or anyone: If UV can mutate pathogens, what serious side effects
could ozone have in the treatment of drinking water (from the roof). UV is
rated for flow rates and therefore what happens to water and the pathogens
in a stagnant situation (no flow) which may happen for many hours of each
day? I know that the water gets warm, and each of my 2 27-watt lamps (the
other one for the reuse water system) uses 237 kWh/year. That represents
28% of total electrical use for home and office. To reduce energy
consumption, to use energy more wisely and to increase the effectiveness
of treatment, I am thinking of trying either standard ozone treatment or
a bioelectrifier.Comments are welcomed. Jorg Ostrowski
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: Lessons learned, was Re: Redclaw vs Tilapia
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:57:43 -0600
At 12:26 AM 2/11/99 -0700, Mike Senger wrote:
>Some lessons I have learned.
>
Mike - thanks for sharing your observations. It's great to have this type
of information shared with the group.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 6 |
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Subject: Re: Lessons learned, was Re: Redclaw vs Tilapia
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:26:19 EST
Thanks from here also Mike. Ken
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:29:01 -0400 (AST)
>Thanks for the reply,I checked with the salesman where I bought it
today,he
>>said it was O.K.,but I like to ask someone with experience.He also sells
45
>>mil rubber pond liners,any thoughts on that? Thanks Ken
>>
>>
Tilapia will eat rubber (hypalon) liners and create leaks at the folds.
Incidentally, tilapia also enjoy eating motor oil when your sump pump
leaks.
There's potential here for cleaning up oil spills. Jim R.
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| Message 9
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Subject: [iaq] Water Treatment
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:20:13 -0700 (MST)
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
You said:"Ozone is certainly very effective, whereas one has to be careful
with UV, since UV can result in 'changed or mutated ' pathogens. For your
purpose, however, uv certainly will help. In comparing both methods I
think that ozone is more effective. However, I have not done a comparative
experiments. I am a bit suspicious about using UV, the reason of which is
simply that we used to use UV for producing mutants."
__________________________________________________________________________
Horst or anyone: If UV can mutate pathogens, what serious side effects
could ozone have in the treatment of drinking water (from the roof). UV is
rated for flow rates and therefore what happens to water and the pathogens
in a stagnant situation (no flow) which may happen for many hours of each
day? I know that the water gets warm, and each of my 2 27-watt lamps (the
other one for the reuse water system) uses 237 kWh/year. That represents
28% of total electrical use for home and office. To reduce energy
consumption, to use energy more wisely and to increase the effectiveness
of treatment, I am thinking of trying either standard ozone treatment or
a bioelectrifier.Comments are welcomed. Jorg Ostrowski
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: [iaq] Water Treatment
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:20:13 -0700 (MST)
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
You said:"Ozone is certainly very effective, whereas one has to be careful>
with UV, since UV can result in 'changed or mutated ' pathogens. For your
purpose, however, uv certainly will help. In comparing both methods I
think that ozone is more effective. However, I have not done a comparative
experiments. I am a bit suspicious about using UV, the reason of which is
simply that we used to use UV for producing mutants."
__________________________________________________________________________
Horst or anyone: If UV can mutate pathogens, what serious side effects
could ozone have in the treatment of drinking water (from the roof). UV is
rated for flow rates and therefore what happens to water and the pathogens
in a stagnant situation (no flow) which may happen for many hours of each
day? I know that the water gets warm, and each of my 2 27-watt lamps (the
other one for the reuse water system) uses 237 kWh/year. That represents
28% of total electrical use for home and office. To reduce energy
consumption, to use energy more wisely and to increase the effectiveness
of treatment, I am thinking of trying either standard ozone treatment or
a bioelectrifier.Comments are welcomed. Jorg Ostrowski
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Interesting Link for the week:
Environews by Topic: Table of Contents
http://ehis.niehs.nih.gov/topic/
Environews by Topic categorizes all Environews articles published in
Environmental Health Perspectives since 1993 under more than 45 different
environmental health topics, including chemical exposures, environmental
medicine, legislation and policy issues, indoor pollution, environmental
justice, and urban issues.
URL to articles on "Indoor Pollution"
http://ehis.niehs.nih.gov/topic/indoorpol.html
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: Re: Tilapia Tank Culture (James Rakocy)
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:20:18 -0400 (AST)
Nowadays I would recommend stocking at 152 fish/m3 to produce 500-g fish or
76 fish/m3 to produce 1,000 g fish. This is in aquaponics and using
diffused
aeration, not liquid oxygen. We grow the reds to 500 g and sell them
gutted,
scaled and gilled to the West Indian market where they are eaten whole on a
plate. We grow Nile tilapia to 1,000 g for the fillet market. This will
give
you two 6-oz. fillets, two restaurant servings. You'll have to give me some
specific questions. Jim R.
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| Message 12 |
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Subject:
From: Jon Hays
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:31:00 -0700
Lars if you miss the Carter years you forgot about the double digit
>inflation and the high interest rates that led to all this high cost of
>living. John
>
John Hays
1903 Pebble Hill Rd.
Carlsbad, NM 88220
1-505-887-0102
ICQ# 765699
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| Message 13 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: David Beckham
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:10:38 -0800
Mmmm. . . this is a bit disturbing. . . I bought a couple of 45 mil EPDM
liners
to make tilapia tanks out of. . . are we then limited to concrete or
fiberglas?
David B.
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| Message 14 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:29:00 -0600
At 11:10 AM 2/12/99 -0800, DAvid wrote:
>>Mmmm. . . this is a bit disturbing. . . I bought a couple of 45 mil EPDM
liners
>>to make tilapia tanks out of. . . are we then limited to concrete or
fiberglas?
>>David B.
>>
>>"James Rakocy, Ph.D." wrote:
>>
>>> Tilapia will eat rubber (hypalon) liners and create leaks at the folds.
>> Incidentally, tilapia also enjoy eating motor oil when your sump pump
leaks.
> There's potential here for cleaning up oil spills. Jim R.
Dave - we've used tanks from Polytank since 1992 with no problems. Their
web site is:
http://www.polydome.com/polytank.html
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 15 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: David Beckham
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:52:05 -0800
Thanks Paula,
I've filled out an on-line request for price and shipping info for the
PT-9038 tank.
. . we'll see what they say. It is good to get testimonials from people
who have
actually had some experience with the products.
David B.
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| Message 16 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: Michael Strates
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:01:58 +1100 (EST)
On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, David Beckham wrote:
DB> Mmmm. . . this is a bit disturbing. . . I bought a couple of 45
DB> mil EPDM liners to make tilapia tanks out of. . . are we then
DB> limited to concrete or fiberglas? David B.
Some of these aquatic animals will eat anything. A group of unhappy
yabbies sucessfully destroyed a 200 gallon polyethylene tank by slowly
boring into it, day after day.. sort of like escaping from prision by
taking a chunk out of a stone wall every day.
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 17 |
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Subject: RE: Tilapia Tank Culture (James Rakocy)
From: Alejandro Gallardo Valencia
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:11:04 -0600
James:
I=B4m currently designing a project involving 24 - 27 80 m3 circular =
tanks. In M=E9xico, Tilapia has traditionally been grown in semi =
extensive sistems up to sizes no larger than 500 gr. However, I'm =
interested in obtaining 1,000 gr fish for export both as hole gutted =
fish and as fillets. Density is a vital factor in my considerations =
because of all of the aspects that need to be dealt with. Ammonia =
removal, aereation, feeding rate and other factors have to be carefully =
planed (obviously) but there is not a lot of info on hiper intensive =
tilapia culture at commercial levels (or I haven't found it). I'm also =
deciding if a closed system is better or, if there is a good water =
source, just use an open system. But because of the strict regulations =
on export fish and seafood and the questionable quality of the water =
sources in my selected sites (Veracruz or Oaxaca), perhaps I rather use =
de closed system. I=B4m not sure eather what hidroponic area would I =
need for a fish culture the size I intend to make. Another option is a =
simple water treatment plant an a Biofilter, but it'd be nice to have a =
surplus a side from beeing a very instructive operation for the folks =
down here.
Any thoughts?
Best regards.
Alejandro
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Subject: Re: earthworm & pathogens?
From: Michael Strates
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:21:29 +1100 (EST)
On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, doelle wrote:
d> The gravel will absorb most pathogens, but I certainly would like to
d> see a good aeration in the pool to make sure that pathogens do not
d> grow happily in eventually anaerobic conditions. Also one has to
d> watch that the gravel is not eventually coated with pathogens.
Or, the person who originally asked can do what I'm doing.. I have a
seperate wormfarm which I draw about 30L of nutrient rich water off. I
pour some sodium hypochlorite into it, and then filter the (now sterile
water) through granular activated carbon and volia -- a hygenic aquaponic
nutrient bed amendment.
I suspect this could also be done if you wanted to add earthworm castings
into the actual gravel beds as well. Just fill a bucket up with about a
1:6 solution of sodium hypochlorite:water pour in the castings and leave
it for about a weak to dissipate.
d> In the case of earthworms, however, I have not heard of any serious
d> problems, since they live in the soil and not necessarily in manure.
I'd assume he is talking about redworms, which live in places of high
organic matter. If he harvested them from his compost heap or wormfarm,
they would be coated with potentially pathogenous bacteria most
definetely (even my properly run wormfarm gets anerobic sometimes).
d> Always keep in mind that pathogens come from human or animals .
Reminds me of yesterday's disection of a few organs from a sheep we were
doing. Some of the other members were happily cutting away, ripping lenses
out of its eye and putting them on newspaper. I decided to run over to the
microscope and put a section of what looked like its intestine underneath
the microscope. Now I understand why everybody must wear gloves!!
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| Message 19 |
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics systems safety, was Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: "brett deiser"
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:07:33 PST
>>
>>Is there some reason you intend using all the various water >treatment
>systems you've described? Have you had negative >experiences that
>require the treatment levels you seem to support?
>>Paula
>
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775
417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
I think, from other postings he's concerned about swimming in
this pool. From the description, I wouldn't be anymore concerned than
swimming in any stream or lake(at least in my neck of the woods).
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| Message 20 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: doelle
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:09:34 +1100
Dave,
Fully agree with your statement below. I think I mentioned that I prefer=
aeration over ozone treatment.
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| Message 21 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality
From: doelle
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:22:00 +1100
Michael,
>DM> Actually, some lakes have had put fountains in the middle. I assume
>DM> this is more than just for romantic attention. Just how much aeration
>DM> is needed. Like a fan, how many water turnovers/day or whatever are
>DM> needed to keep the water free of pathogens.
>
>Can't answer your question.. Hopefulle Horst will be able to answer this
>one,
>No, I can't answer the rate required as I am not a chemical engineer.
Aeration or ozonation really depends as to how clean do you have to have the
water. If you use it for swimming, aeration alone is not enough and you
ould require additional ozonation or chlorination. The water used here
ertainly does not come from a clean mountain stream !
however - there is a dam near our house which is built on top of a
>rubbish tip and a fountain runs 24 hours a day to keep the methane in the
>lake bed.. the whole area has "NO SMOKING" and "KEEP OUT" signs
>everywhere, but what do I care? :-)>
>
Wow, I hope your water does not come from that lake. Why don't they use the
methane instead of concentrating it in the lake. A very curious system
indeed. Methane can only be broken down by specialised bacteria under high
aeration and that certainly is not easy. Thus the 'non-smoking and keeping
out'signs. Also, methane is relatively odourless and you only realise it
through headache etc.
Here in Australia we have a few rubbish dip methane generating plants
making use of the methane. Another system to prevent pollution etc is, to
cover the lake and collect the methane. Methane is not very miscible with
water, as far as I know.
Horst
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| Message 22 |
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Subject: Re: Water Treatment
From: doelle
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:40:29 +1100
Jorg,
you wrote:
If UV can mutate pathogens, what serious side effects
>could ozone have in the treatment of drinking water (from the roof). UV is
>rated for flow rates and therefore what happens to water and the pathogens
>in a stagnant situation (no flow) which may happen for many hours of each
>day? I know that the water gets warm, and each of my 2 27-watt lamps (the
>other one for the reuse water system) uses 237 kWh/year. That represents
>28% of total electrical use for home and office. To reduce energy
>consumption, to use energy more wisely and to increase the effectiveness
>of treatment, I am thinking of trying either standard ozone treatment or
>a bioelectrifier.Comments are welcomed. Jorg Ostrowski
I am not much of a practitioner, but from the scientifi point of view UV
treatment of stagnant waters can cause mutations. With flowing water the
dangers are much less. In regard to ozone, the oxygen radicals formed by
this treatment attack the cell membranes of the bacteria unless they have
special enzymes to handle these radicals. Thus I have not heard of any
effects caused by ozonation.
I hope this helps.
Horst
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| Message 23 |
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Subject: Aeration (was: Pool turning into Reality)
From: Michael Strates
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:57:00 +1100 (EST)
On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, doelle wrote:
d> Wow, I hope your water does not come from that lake. Why don't they
> use the methane instead of concentrating it in the lake. A very
d> curious system indeed. Methane can only be broken down by
Its at Darebin Parklands, Victoria. We went there on a field trip and
inspected the apartus that they use to keep the methane underneath the
bed of the waterbody. Basically, its a 20 foot high fountain with water
teaming down. It has that red "keep out" tape all around the bed, and a
few signs around.. Suspiciously, they do not mention methane on the signs,
just NO SMOKING.
As you approach the area, you can smell hydrogen sulphide in the air.
Presumably this is from a nearby bed which is not aerated and has become
anerobic.. We've checked with the dept. and their main concerns around
that area are H2S and CH4 explosions.
d> easy. Thus the 'non-smoking and keeping out'signs. Also, methane is
d> relatively odourless and you only realise it through headache etc.
You feel a bit woozy around the area - this could be the methane or the
hydrogen sulphide.. I'm unsure. I know that the H2S smell disappears in
about two minutes, presumably this is because it de-sensitizes your nose.
The area used to supply power to the grid... it doesn't now, because it is
considered not viable anymore and hence they "vent" a little bit of
methane out every day through what looks like a 50ft PVC vent tube.
btw; I live in Australia as well.
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| Message 24 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality (Aquaponic Apparel?
From: "Fred Chambers, FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu"
regenerative@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:39:16 -0800
KLOTTTRUE>When you are working in an aquaponic enviroment,do you need to
wear any type
KLOTTTRUE>of protective clothing?
I just wear UV-protection. The water is green, healthy, and alive. My
experience is with reclaimed water aquaculture. Reclaimed is tertiary
treated municipal wastewater, and gets chlorinated and dechlorinated before
it reaches our farm. It is sterile but fertile. Airborn algae soon
innoculate any open vessel, and with light, the water turns green. Only
the animals can hurt you, if you let 'em.
How about y'all working with grey- or black-water?
Fred
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| Message 25 |
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Subject: Re: Solar Cells in production
From: "Fred Chambers, FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu"
regenerative@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:03:57 -0800
I call them "Solar Silos."
I was offering the Sun-Lite tanks as an example. People were discussing
using a fiberglass tank for an aquaponic swimming pool, and I thought the
prices sounded way too high. The Sun-Lite tanks are tricky, but hold up
well to many seasons of use.
We get a food conversion ratio between 1.5 and 1.8 to 1 in our Sun-lite
tanks: a common carp/tilapia polyculture. We blow a little air overnight
to keep the O2 levels up, but not enough to chill the water. About 10% of
the water is replaced each week.
We, and presumably anyone, can grow big fish in these small tanks.
Fred
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| Message 26 |
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Subject: Re: Solar Cells in production
From: Michael Strates
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:24:43 +1100 (EST)
On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Fred Chambers, FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu wrote:
FCFCe> We get a food conversion ratio between 1.5 and 1.8 to 1 in
FCFCe> our Sun-lite tanks: a common carp/tilapia polyculture. We
FCFCe> blow a little air overnight to keep the O2 levels up, but
FCFCe> not enough to chill the water. About 10% of the water is
FCFCe> replaced each week.
Sounds good. The aquaponic swimming pool will be located in a greenhouse,
and will have solar heating. The aeration will probably serve to stablize
the air and water temperatures inside of the greenhouse. ie; we're
probably going to use aerobic compost to heat the pool (probably only
raise the temperature by 6 degrees), solar heating and probably even
propane or wood burning heating to keep it at an ideal temperature during
the winter on days where the sunlight is pretty low. We'll be able to
"heat the water to heat the greenhouse".
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| Message 27 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality (Aquaponic Apparel?
From: Michael Strates
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:19:09 +1100 (EST)
On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Fred Chambers, FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu wrote:
FCFCe> How about y'all working with grey- or black-water?
I've been fooling around with a urine still. Urine in one end, fresh,
clean, potable water out the other and powdered urea in the still. Just a
one gallon metal can with some tubing coming out of the top, another can
filled with cool water which the tubing circles through as a condenser and
a small jug at the other end to collect the clean water.
However, under all but the most severe conditions, urine is pretty sterile
and hence I feel that you could use it as a supplemental fertilizer in
small quantities in the water, perhaps passed through a biofilter first to
convert it all to nitrate. Hmm... this sounds like another project for
me.
How about a two gallon urine tank that's heavily aerated with airstones
and what have you, an attached one gallon biofilter.. urine goes in, after
seven days you have a safe, clean fertilizer.. hmm, how about:
Day One - two gallon tank is filled with urine.
Days Two to Six - Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter convert urine into nitrate
Day Seven - biofilter is turned off, urine is sterilized with
ozone, UV, chlorine, what have you and is then stilled,
leaving a powdered nutrient which can be instantly used
as a high nitrogen water soluble fertilizer.
Urine eventually converted to nitrate would be what? Ammonium nitrate?
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| Message 28 |
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Subject: Re: [iaq] Water Treatment
From: "Marc S. Nameth"
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:23:25 -0700
http://www.oxytherapy.com/mail-archive/sep96/151.html
An improperly designed or installed ozonator can cause
harmful to toxic levels of ozone especially in enclosed
areas. Ozone is "lively" and will degrade various materials.
Intercepted UV tends to be re-radiated in lower wavelengths
in the form of heat. Losses are always present in electrical
systems (ballsts, wires) and are usually in the form of
heat.
<, and each of my 2 27-watt lamps (the other one for the
reuse water system) uses 237 kWh/year. That represents 28%
of total electrical use for home and office. To reduce
energy consumption, to use energy more wisely...>
A UV system has a certain radiation power at a specific
light frequency which decreases (becomes less "kill"
efficient) as time passes to levels where certain pathogens
tend to survive the trip through the sterilizing
"kill-zone". This can only be fixed by replacing the bulb.
Ozone producing "cell(s)" usually have a longer lifetime and
a greater "kill" efficiency over time.
UV sterilizers suffer from light interception from mineral
buildup, turbidity and particulate interception of the UV on
glass or plastic sleeves/windows. This requires a periodic
cleaning of sleeves/windows, if used, a wiper type system
and pre-filters may be needed depending on the level of
pathogen reduction desired. The turbidity and particulate
content of the water are not as critical with ozone
<.. and to increase the effectiveness of treatment, I am
thinking of trying either standard ozone treatment or a
bioelectrifier.Comments are welcomed. Jorg Ostrowski>
UV sterilizers are not usually expected to interact with
particulates or dissolved elements in the water so water
chemistry modifications are not expected. Ozone provides
excellent sterilization and is also practical for use on
water chemistry.
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| Message 29 |
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Subject: Re: Solar Cells in production
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:43:39 EST
Hi,Ken again,i hope you people will forgive me for all the questions,I'm
just
trying to soak up as much info as I can.O.K. you're saying using blowers
cools
the water,what if I use a small diaphram type compressor and an air
diffuser?
I know when you compress air it heats up,will this be a problem this
summer?
Also when you talk about raising fish to large sizes in these sunlight
tanks,what size tanks are you talking about? Thanks Ken
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| Message 30 |
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Subject: Re: [iaq] Water Treatment
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:26:27 EST
Hi,Jorg,I'm not a proffessor or anything,and I'm not exactly sure of the
amount of ozone required to kill the pathogens you're talking about,but I
ust
had a thought,I don't know if it's feasible or not,here goes,back in 89 I
built an Ozone research project for the University of GA. They did a 7 year
study on how much ozone Lobblolly Pine Trees produce,I'm sure you can
check
ith the School of Forest resources and they could give you some figures,
any
way from what I gather all you people in the aquaponics business like to do
things as natural as possible,maybe it would be possible have a few small
pines in your greenhouse and have a natural source of ozone.the ozone
disappears at night.The reason they did the study is our problem here in
the
southeast with haze,they attribute it to the increase in reforestation with
planted pines.Just a thought, Out on a limb.
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| Message 31 |
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Subject: Re: Solar Cells in production
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:16:56 -0600
Compressed air does not heat up. compressing air "concentraits" heat as it
"concentraits" the air. The compressed air then cools off in the
compressor.
Using compressed air will cool the water.
Best regards
Dale Robinson
prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net
http//home.att.net/~prof-robinson/page7.html
>I know when you compress air it heats up,will this be a problem this
summer?
>Also when you talk about raising fish to large sizes in these sunlight
>tanks,what size tanks are you talking about? Thanks Ken
>
>
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Subject: Earthworms and Pathogens
From: mdsenger@webtv.net (Michael Senger)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:28:35 -0700 (MST)
Current research around the planet indicates that "earthworm powered"
wastewater treatment can work very effectively. In Pune India they are
basically trickling raw sewage through beds of earthworm castings and
yeilding water with no pathogenic components. It is not the earthworms
per se that are doing this, but the complex of aerobic microorganisms
that accompany the earthworms and live in their guts.
These microorganisms will not hurt tilapia and I believe can actually
protect them from the most common cause of fish death- opportunistic
parasitic bacterium (vibro, aeromonus, etc.) that can affect the fish
at water temperatures below 65 F.
I have taken containers of vermicompost with worms and have recirculated
aquarium water through it for months. The fish seem to benefit from
the treatment. I am continuing to experiment along these lines. There
are some pitfalls. It can take a while to get the biology going and
and you can possibly kill your fish if the filter "collapses" and
consumes oxygen.
It is nothing more than an enhanced biological filter. The benefit is
that the sludge (fish wastes) in the system are consumed. Anna Edey
of the Solviva
Corporation has developed (is developing) similar systems for on-site
residential and commercial wastewater treatment. John Todd's "Living
Machines" are now very advanced.
Forget complicated aquaponic systems. You don't need UV, ozone, pure
oxygen, solids settling tanks or any of that. Just good aerobic
growing beds with a lot of earthworms and the right microbiology. Then
just feed it your aereated fish water which has been kept at the right
temperature.
It can be simple.
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| Message 33 |
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Subject: Re: Solar Cells in production
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:30:31 EST
Thanks for setting me straight.Ken
>
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| Message 34 |
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Subject: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens
From: Michael Strates
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:40:33 +1100 (EST)
On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Michael Senger wrote:
MS> Forget complicated aquaponic systems. You don't need UV, ozone, pure
MS> oxygen, solids settling tanks or any of that. Just good aerobic
MS> growing beds with a lot of earthworms and the right microbiology. Then
MS> just feed it your aereated fish water which has been kept at the
right
MS> temperature.
Hmmm.. Doesn't it depend on what you feed your little wormettes? For
example, if you feed redworms manure, then obviously there is an increased
chance of pathogens getting into the water.
Do what I do.. Microwave all scraps for 2 minutes before they go into the
worm beds (make sure they cool down! :-).. or, alternatively chlorinate
them and let the chlorine dissipate over two days. Peroxide could be
useful here.
--
e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates
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| Message 35 |
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Subject: Re: Solar Cells in production
From: Michael Strates
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:42:21 +1100 (EST)
On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Dale Robinson wrote:
DR> Compressed air does not heat up. compressing air "concentraits"
DR> heat as it "concentraits" the air. The compressed air then cools
DR> off in the compressor. Using compressed air will cool the water.
Cools 'off' in the compressor? How would the air cool down if more energy
is being added to it by compressing it, or am I missing something?
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| Message 36 |
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Subject: Re: Solar Cells in production
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:30:07 EST
Compression generates heat, that is how a diesel engine operates, the fuel
after injection is compressed at anywhere from 400 Psi to 700 Psi then
combustion occurs. If it just concentrated the fuel and the first injection
was 80 degrees and the following injections were 80 degrees also, then you
would end up with a cylinder full of 80 degree diesel fuel with no
combustion,
because you do not add 80 to 80 to 80 and so forth until you reach the
necessary temperature for combustion. When you hit your thumb with a hammer
you stick your thumb in your mouth to cool it off. Compression creates
heat.
Sorry doc, but I disagree with you, mom said never argue with your teacher,
but I just couldn't help myself. Thanks North Georgia Shadetree Physics
Professor
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| Message 37 |
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Subject: Re: [iaq] Water Treatment
From: "Marc S. Nameth"
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:46:15 -0700
A quick check didn't bring up your work but I thought the
following was interesting:
ozone safety guidelines:
http://www.eq.state.ut.us/eqamc/ozone.htm
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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