Aquaponics Digest - Sat 02/13/99




Message   1: RE: Redclaw Sources in Oz

             from Andrew 

Message   2: Redclaws

             from "Wendy Nagurny" 

Message   3: Re: Pool turning into - a U-still?

             from "Fred Chambers, FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu"



Message   4: Re: Lessons learned, was Re: Redclaw vs Tilapia

             from jilli and lars 

Message   5: Re: Water Treatment

             from jilli and lars 

Message   6: ??R?e?: ?eart?hwo?rm ?&

path?ogens????????????????????????????????????????

             from jilli and lars 

Message   7: Re: Pool turning into Reality (Aquaponic Apparel?

             from jilli and lars 

Message   8: RE: Suppliers

             from Andrew 

Message   9: mental compost and the mutant pool

             from jilli and lars 

Message  10: Urine for fertilizer

             from Adriana Gutierrez 

Message  11: purpose of earthworms in gravel

             from "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 

Message  12: identifying crayfish from Florida

             from "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 

Message  13: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens

             from "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 

Message  14: Re: earthworm & pathogens?

             from "brett deiser" 

Message  15: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens

             from "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 

Message  16: ?the short history of aquaponics?

             from jilli and lars 

Message  17: Re: Pool turning into Reality

             from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)

Message  18: Re: Pool turning into - a U-still?

             from Michael Strates 

Message  19: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel

             from Michael Strates 

Message  20: Re: earthworm & pathogens?

             from Michael Strates 

Message  21: Re: Pathogens

             from Michael Strates 

Message  22: Re: Pool turning into Reality (Aquaponic Apparel?

             from Michael Strates 

Message  23: Re: Solar Cells in production

             from "Dale Robinson" 

Message  24: A thought about Urine

             from Michael Strates 

Message  25: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)

             from Gordon Watkins 

Message  26: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel

             from Gordon Watkins 

Message  27: Re: A thought about Urine

             from "Dale Robinson" 

Message  28: Re: A thought about Urine

             from Michael Strates 

Message  29: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel

             from "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 

Message  30: Re: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)

             from "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 

Message  31: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel

             from Michael Strates 

Message  32: Earthworms and Pathogens

             from mdsenger@webtv.net (Michael Senger)

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| Message 1                                                           |

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Subject: RE: Redclaw Sources in Oz

From:    Andrew 

Date:    Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:09:57 +1030

Marron take up to two years to become viable in Oz.

Three years to sexual maturation. They also are not extremely fecund.

They thrive in cool fast flowing streams.  

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| Message 2                                                           |

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Subject: Redclaws

From:    "Wendy Nagurny" 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:11:32 -0500

I do believe redclaws are what are sold in the restaurants as langosta or

langostinos for the very small ones.  These are usually sold as tails.

Their prices per ounce are similar to lobster.  A local restaurant is

offering surf-and-turf with 3.5 oz of langostinos "smaller than peeler

shrimp"  at the same price as the surf-and-turf with a 4 oz  lobster tail.

I recently saw three "mini-lobster" tails in the shells of about two to

three inches long each sold on a skewer for $4.99 in the seafood section of

a local grocer.   So there is a market for these out there.  I read on a web

site that a meal of soft shell langostas sell for around $100 a plate when

they are offered.  To get a soft shell langosta, one has to cook them within

three to five hours after they molt.  The shells are paper thin and edible.

Does anybody know how to properly prepare soft shell langosta?

Wendy

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| Message 3                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Pool turning into - a U-still?

From:    "Fred Chambers, FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu" 

Date:    Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:27:56 -0800

Strates>I've been fooling around with a urine still. Urine in one end, fresh,

Strates>clean, potable water out the other and powdered urea in the still.

Just a

>one ga

What's your heat source?  It is solar, right?

Strates>Urine eventually converted to nitrate would be what? Ammonium nitrate?

Strates>

Curious question.  I don't remember my O-chem and Bio-chem well enough to

rattle off this answer.  With Ammonium-Nitrate and a little Bio-Deisel, you

could be an environmentally-friendly terrorist.  Good thing you are not in

the States --- the FBI would be all over you for making your own

Ammonium-Nitrate!

:)  Ha ha ha!

Fred

FMChambers@csupomona.edu                        Agricultural Sciences

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Black Walnut Alliance is one of many campus groups encouraging Cal Poly

to explore environmentally responsible uses of campus green spaces.  Visit

and post at sites urging alternatives to golf: 

http://www.csupomona.edu/~jmikeda/la401/cap/ (Clean Air Park Proposal)

http://www.regen.org/bwecc.html (BWA's Energy Center Proposal)

http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~muse/  (Multi-Use Development Strategy)

http://www.rokcircle.com/bbs/ (The Wilderness Forum)

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| Message 4                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Lessons learned, was Re: Redclaw vs Tilapia

From:    jilli and lars 

Date:    Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:40:34 -08

> At 12:26 AM 2/11/99 -0700, Mike Senger wrote:

>

> >(7)  Add earthworms to  the gravel beds.

> > Sprinkle fresh earthworm castings over the bed surface periodically

> >(micro biological bacterial innoculant).

What is the reason for adding earthworms to the gravel beds? Is this to help

control the buildup of dead roots and other detritus?  Do they help keep the

gravel beds unclogged? Or is there some other purpose?

> Mike - thanks for sharing your observations.  It's great to have this type

> of information shared with the group.

>

> Paula

yes, thanks mike.

la

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| Message 5                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Water Treatment

From:    jilli and lars 

Date:    Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:48:32 -0800

ozone is a known carcinogen

just boil the water or put it through a solar distiller

lar

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| Message 6                                                           |

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Subject: ??R?e?: ?eart?hwo?rm ?&

path?ogens????????????????????????????????????????

From:    jilli and lars 

Date:    Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:58:13 -0800

Michael -

Why are you so so concerned about pathogens?

Have you personally had any _problems_ with pathogens from your system?

Do you know anybody who has had _problems_ with pathogens in their systems?

Does anybody have any personal stories about problems with pathogens and

aquaponic systems?

I truly believe that by exposing your system to high concentrations of poisons

you are doing more harm than good.

I imagine that a properly maintained aquaponic system should be as safe as any

lake or stream.

Natural systems are pretty damn good at maintaining a healthy balance. I know,

because i'm part of one. The same one y'all are part of.

By exposing an isolated portion to an extreme amount of poisons, you are

isolating your system from the positive balancing bacterial effects of the

larger bio-system known as planet earth.

By emulating natural systems as much as possible, you are approaching the

healthy aspects that a diverse biosystem offers.

lars fields

Michael Strates wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, doelle wrote:

>

> d> The gravel will absorb most pathogens, but I certainly would like to

> d> see a good aeration in the pool to make sure that pathogens do not

> d> grow happily in eventually anaerobic conditions. Also one has to

> d> watch that the gravel is not eventually coated with pathogens.

>

> Or, the person who originally asked can do what I'm doing.. I have a

> seperate wormfarm which I draw about 30L of nutrient rich water off. I

> pour some sodium hypochlorite into it, and then filter the (now sterile

> water) through granular activated carbon and volia -- a hygenic aquaponic

> nutrient bed amendment.

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| Message 7                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality (Aquaponic Apparel?

From:    jilli and lars 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 00:33:24 -0800

Michael Strates wrote:

> However, under all but the most severe conditions, urine is pretty sterile

> and hence I feel that you could use it as a supplemental fertilizer in

> small quantities in the water, perhaps passed through a biofilter first to

> convert it all to nitrate. Hmm... this sounds like another project for

> me.

> ________________

hey michael-

You are right.

Your own urine is completely sterile unless you have a bladder or urinary

tract infection.

For example, certain sects in India (and elsewhere) drink straight urine daily

with no ill effects.

Though I am not brave enough to ingest it directly, I have used my own urine

in my experimental aquaponic system to grow tomatos which I ate with no ill

effects (except this strange addiction to the aquaponics listserver).

Nitrosomas and Niterbacter are your friends.

However, feces is a different matter.

There is no reason to sterilize or expose your own urine to poisons if you are

using it for growing your own food. Urine is a  concentrated form of potential

nutrients. By comparison, feces is made up of things your body did not use,

while urine is made up of things your body has _already_ used (and, therefore,

would probably use again). Your urine IS what your WERE, more than any other

substance you produce (except, maybe, a baby).

Therefore if you are growing what you will become (ie. because you will eat

it), urine is quite appropriate as a  nutrient source.

you are what you eat....

....ad infinitum

lars

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| Message 8                                                           |

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Subject: RE: Suppliers

From:    Andrew 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:37:15 +1030

In Australia: Aquaculture Advantage 61 885 243 962

-----Original Message-----

From:   HoneyAcres [SMTP:HoneyAcres]

Sent:   Friday, 12 February 1999 10:13

To:     aquaponics@townsqr.com

Subject:        Suppliers

Does anybody know a supplier of aquaponic systems? (websites?)

 Thanks, 

     Steven 

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| Message 9                                                           |

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Subject: mental compost and the mutant pool

From:    jilli and lars 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 02:37:30 -0800

Jon Hays wrote:

> Lars if you miss the Carter years you forgot about the double digit

> >inflation and the high interest rates that led to all this high cost of

> >living. John

> >

 (I originally planned on redirecting this discussion through personal

email, rather than going through the list. I know off-subject issues like

politics aren't appreciated on most listservers. However, as i wrote it, it

seemed to actually be quite on-topic, so i decided to let it be part of the

ongoing aquaponic document corpus.  Should this discussion continue as a

debate, I will try to do so privately rather than risk the multitude of

reprimands I would surely receive.)

Hi John -

        Before I get to the relevant info,  I always thought Carter was

basically trying to deal with the largest deficit in US history up to that

date (that is, until Reagan took it to even higher heights trying to

outspend the soviets.) This deficit was due to huge expenditures accrued

during the Nixon years, mostly for paying for the 'police action' in

Vietnam. Therefore, blaming Carter for the mess he acquired when he entered

office isn't really valid. Just like it isn't valid to say that Clinton is

*the cause* for our current (apparent) economic boom. The economy is

dependent on many, many, many  more factors than what 'flavor' of president

is currently in office. Nor is it really valid to expect an administration

to fix a faltering economy in less than 4 years, IF an administration is

capable of  _affecting_ an economy, even  if it tried.

          For example, lets say a hypothetical president somehow manages to

redirect 1 percent of the defense budget  into setting up educational

aquaponic systems and fancy computers in every school in the nation (the

defense budget is where 1/5 of your tax money goes if you are fortunate

enough to live in the USofA). Lets also say this happens during a

hypothetical recession. Four years go by and the recession still exists, so

Joe and Josephine Public kicks out this president and elects someone else

who, of course, promptly gives the 1 percent back to the loudly whining

military.  The school's computers become obsolete and dusty and everybody

starts to complain about that strange smell coming from the unused and

unvisited greenhouse.

        Four terms go by (16 years for you outside the US) and the

hypothetical generation of kids who were 12 years old during our

hypothetical president's term are now 28-year old entrepreneurs. These whiz

kids who were exposed to a rich compost of ideas when they were young now

create a multitude of money-generating new businesses. Does our original

hypothetical president get the credit? Probably not. Do his/her ideas get

the credit? Same answer.... But that isn't important, anyway...

        President Carter had solar panels installed on the roof of the white

house. One of *the* first things Reagan did when he moved in was to remove

these panels. Why did he bother?  The solar panels weren't doing anybody any

harm. They were already paid for. Why not leave them up? Do you think it had

something to do with the people who supplied money for his campaign? He most

likely removed them because they were a symbol, one that Reagan's true

employers (ie. the oil biz) didn't like.

        I was a child (7-11 years old) during the Carter years. Those years

that he was in office made a difference to me then, and this legacy

continues now: Often when I research something I'm interested in, I find

USGovDoc microfilms that are dated between 1976 and 1980. There is a

suprising lack of any interesting *publically available* material from the

80's onward, especially studies funded by the government. These sorts of

things matter to burgeoning industries like aquaponics which, in turn,

affect people's lives and, therefore, national economies. The minute amount

of money that managed to find its way to those crazy people who were staring

at the sun and peeing in ponds helped create much of what IS aquaponics.

Aquaponics might have happened without someone like Carter, but then again,

it might not have.

        Just as biodiversity keeps ecosystems vital, diversity of ideas

keeps cultures (and therefore economies) vital.

Lars Fields

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| Message 10                                                          |

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Subject: Urine for fertilizer

From:    Adriana Gutierrez 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:46:42 -0500

> How about a two gallon urine tank that's heavily aerated with airstones

> and what have you, an attached one gallon biofilter.. urine goes in, after

> seven days you have a safe, clean fertilizer.. 

I've read about a composting operation in the Phillipines I

believe, where homeless people were organized to make compost out

of plant refuse delivered to the municipal dump.  An integral

part of their operation was the collection of urine which was

added to the pile to heat it up.  This, along with an agressive

routine of turing the piles on a rigid schedule yielded excellent

compost in about two weeks.  This provided a livelihood for the

participants.

Adriana

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| Message 11                                                          |

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Subject: purpose of earthworms in gravel

From:    "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:30:27 -0700 (MST)

You said:

What is the reason for adding earthworms to the gravel beds? Is this to

help control the buildup of dead roots and other detritus?  Do they help

keep the gravel beds unclogged? Or is there some other purpose?

________________________________________________________________________

Anyone: This is a very good question. I too would like to know. Which

worms should we use? How do we keep them in the trays (at night)? We have

3 worm areas for raising worms now, a "Can-o-Worms", a smaller container 

and our composting toilet. Or should we use earthworms? Jorg Ostrowski

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| Message 12                                                          |

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Subject: identifying crayfish from Florida

From:    "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:35:22 -0700 (MST)

My fish supplier does not know which type of crayfish we have in our

greywater gardenwall system. What is the best way to identify them? I

would like to identify their common and latin names. Jorg Ostrowski

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| Message 13                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens

From:    "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 07:29:49 -0700 (MST)

You said:

"Do what I do.. Microwave all scraps for 2 minutes before they go into the

worm beds (make sure they cool down! :-).. or, alternatively chlorinate

them and let the chlorine dissipate over two days. Peroxide could be

useful here."

_________________________________________________________________________

Michael: Microwaving and chlorination sounds extremely counterproductive

in my books for many reasons. In our GreyWater GardenWall where we

integrate hydroponics (vegetables) and marshes (fish) and another fish 

tank we just irrigate (and circulate) the fish tank water for 30 minutes 

a day, before using the water in the house again. Lets keep unnecessary 

electrical bills, EMF and chemicals out of the biosphere. In our case, what 

goes in will come out (our system is closed loop). 

*****************************************************************************

Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski,  M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto),

-  in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978),    

   environmental/architectural design, ecological planning,  consulting   

   on sustainable  buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops.

- 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors

- college campus and office tower recofit under construction

- living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office

ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671

Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm

e-mail: 

############################################################################

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| Message 14                                                          |

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Subject: Re: earthworm & pathogens?

From:    "brett deiser" 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 07:03:50 PST

>You said:"(7)  Add earthworms to  the gravel beds.

> Sprinkle fresh earthworm castings over the bed surface periodically

>(micro biological bacterial innoculant).

                  Do earthworms do well in gravel medium? Do you need to 

have "refuse/compost" for the worms to eat? If so do you just put it on 

in a top dressing manner?

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| Message 15                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens

From:    "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:17:37 -0700 (MST)

Michael: Thanks for another gem. I am prepared to modify my hydroponic

system right away as soon as you or some other generous person can get me

a copy of the referenced material about the work in India (or similar work

elslewhere).In addition, I am willing to turn my slow sand filters into a

new prototype greywater filter using your suggestions and referenced literature.

Thanks for the inspiration and useful comments. Jorg ostrowski

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| Message 16                                                          |

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Subject: ?the short history of aquaponics?

From:    jilli and lars 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:19:25 -0800

James Rakocy, Ph.D. wrote: .

> lars wrote:

> 

> >

> >        By the way, a study titled "An Ecological Approach to a Water

> >Recirculating System for Salmonids: Preliminary Experience" (Kenneth T.

MacKay

> >and Wayne Van Toever) was also presented at the same symposium that year. I'm

> >wondering if  this was one of the first published studies of what eventually

> >became 'aquaponics'. But I was 12 at the time, so i don't really know.

Anybody

> >else?

>

> It was not the first. I first saw the term "aquaponics" in an Alternative

> Aquaculture Network (an offshoot of the Rodale project) newsletter article

> in the late 80s. It's a very good term because before that we were calling

> them integrated systems, which could refer to almost anything.

----------------------------------

    Just to clarify: I'm not saying it was the first use of the *term*

'aquaponics'.  Nor is that what I was wondering.

    I was wondering whether it was one of the first uses of aquaponic

*techniques*

(ie. hydroponic beds with bacteria for filtering water from fish culture

tanks), at

least in a controlled study (It was presented in 1981).

    I'm curious about the history of this method. It seems so strange that

something

so simple and obvious would have it's origins so recently.

        I'm also interested in the social contexts that create fertile

ground for

these ideas.

    lars

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| Message 17                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality

From:    james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:47:31 -0400 (AST)

>Mmmm. . . this is a bit disturbing. . . I bought a couple of 45 mil EPDM liners

>to make tilapia tanks out of. . . are we then limited to concrete or fiberglas?

>David B.

>

High and low density polyethylene (HDPE and LDPE) liners are all right. 

>"James Rakocy, Ph.D." wrote:

>

>> Tilapia will eat rubber (hypalon) liners and create leaks at the folds.

>> Incidentally, tilapia also enjoy eating motor oil when your sump pump leaks.

>> There's potential here for cleaning up oil spills. Jim R.

>

>

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| Message 18                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Pool turning into - a U-still?

From:    Michael Strates 

Date:    Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:02:33 +1100 (EST)

On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Fred Chambers, FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu wrote:

FCFCe> What's your heat source?  It is solar, right?

Yes, a small mirror reflector.

FCFCe> environmentally-friendly terrorist.  Good thing you are not

FCFCe> in the States --- the FBI would be all over you for making

FCFCe> your own Ammonium-Nitrate! :)  Ha ha ha! Fred

Ha.. I can imagine the FBI examining the machine.

"Well, my investigator.. you urinate in this end and an industrial

oxidizer appears in here after seven days" :-)

--

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| Message 19                                                          |

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Subject: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel

From:    Michael Strates 

Date:    Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:08:20 +1100 (EST)

On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote:

JDO> Anyone: This is a very good question. I too would like to know. Which

JDO> worms should we use? How do we keep them in the trays (at night)? We have

JDO> 3 worm areas for raising worms now, a "Can-o-Worms", a smaller container 

JDO> and our composting toilet. Or should we use earthworms? Jorg Ostrowski

We constantly use earthworms in this group to describe redworms. Placing

redworms in your gravel beds has several numerous "good" consequences:

1. they aerate the roots, preventing them from becoming matted.

2. they keep your bacteria colony under control by eating a few of them.

3. the worms fix other important nutrients into a form that plants can

 . use.

4. they provide a supplemental feed for your fishes.

--

e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net   www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates

See keyservers for PGP info.  Linux! The OS of my Choice!

"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned

skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."

- Leonardo da Vinci, and below an extract from John Fogerty's song:

Hey, Tonight - Gonna be tonight- Don't you know I'm flyin'- Tonight

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| Message 20                                                          |

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Subject: Re: earthworm & pathogens?

From:    Michael Strates 

Date:    Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:10:40 +1100 (EST)

On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, brett deiser wrote:

bd>                   Do earthworms do well in gravel medium? Do you need to 

bd> have "refuse/compost" for the worms to eat? If so do you just put it on 

bd> in a top dressing manner?

The worms will do just fine eating bacteria and the bits of fish poop that

float on in. However, you might want to put a few spoons of corn meal in

each bed every week if you feel sorry for them or want to fatten them up

(2 teaspn flour, 1 teaspn corn meal for fattening).

--

e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net   www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates

See keyservers for PGP info.  Linux! The OS of my Choice!

"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned

skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."

- Leonardo da Vinci, and below an extract from John Fogerty's song:

Hey, Tonight - Gonna be tonight- Don't you know I'm flyin'- Tonight

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| Message 21                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Pathogens

From:    Michael Strates 

Date:    Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:28:38 +1100 (EST)

On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, jilli and lars wrote:

jal> Have you personally had any _problems_ with pathogens from your system?

Yes, like I said.. E.Coli from animal wastes (foolishly) added to my

system around a year ago.

jal> I truly believe that by exposing your system to high

jal> concentrations of poisons you are doing more harm than good.

A biocide like Hydrogen Peroxide disappears without a trace after a day or

two into oxygen. Ozone turns into oxygen, and chlorine as hypochlorites

simply bubbles out as chlorine gas (leaving dioxin, and whatever made up

the hypochlorite - ie: sodium or calcium in the water).

My point is?? Perhaps you mightn't like chlorine.. Fine! But there's many

natural ways to clean the water, like using peroxide. Peroxide IS

natural.. its found in plants, flowers, etc.. Ground ozone IS natural..

that's the fresh smell that tickles your nose and hurts your eyes during a

severe thunderstorm.

--

e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net   www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates

See keyservers for PGP info.  Linux! The OS of my Choice!

"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned

skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."

- Leonardo da Vinci, and below an extract from John Fogerty's song:

Hey, Tonight - Gonna be tonight- Don't you know I'm flyin'- Tonight

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| Message 22                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality (Aquaponic Apparel?

From:    Michael Strates 

Date:    Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:38:34 +1100 (EST)

On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, jilli and lars wrote:

jal> Your own urine is completely sterile unless you have a bladder

jal> or urinary tract infection.

Outputs of an Average Person Per 24 Hour Period 

(a little on the high side)

urine 1.50kg, h2o as perspiration/respiration 2.28kg, feces h2o 0.09kg,

urine solids 0.06kg, feces solids 0.03kg, perspiration solids 00.02kg

It seems that we'll generate around one and a half liters of urine every

day (assuming 1kg=1l of fluid) and of that, we'll end up with only

enough solids to fill three small 20ml medicine glasses.

If what I'm saying is correct, then over a seven day period, we would have

generated:

60 x 7 = 420 grams of solids.

Lets round that off to 400 grams.. I buy my hydroponic nutrient in 400

gram packs! It lasts me three weeks.

jal> For example, certain sects in India (and elsewhere) drink

jal> straight urine daily with no ill effects.

Nitrate poisioning?

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| Message 23                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Solar Cells in production

From:    "Dale Robinson" 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:42:32 -0600

I guess I confused more than one person with this statement.  I'll attempt

to explain it better.

>On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Dale Robinson wrote:

>

>DR> Compressed air does not heat up.  compressing air "concentrates"

>DR> heat as it "concentrates" the air.

Air contains heat.  The act of compressing air does NOT heat the air.

The heat that you feel if you were to feel a tank of freashly compressed air

is the heat that was in the air before it was compressed.  The compressed

air has the same amount of heat as the uncompressed air.  It's just in a

more concentrated form.

(To better understand this principal you might try studing air

conditioning.)

>DR>The compressed air then cools

Heat will follow the path of least resistence.  Therefore, the heat will

dissipate into the surounding air until it reaches equalibrium.

>DR> off in the compressor. Using compressed air will cool the water.

When the air is uncompressed(starting at a lower temperature) it will come

out colder(lacking heat).

Since water is 1200 times the concentration of air, it will take a LOT of

air to change the temperature of the water much.

>

>Cools 'off' in the compressor? How would the air cool down if more energy

>is being added to it by compressing it, or am I missing something?

Cooling off in the Compressor(compressed air container) requires time for

the heat to transfer to the environment.  Some heat is lost from water vaper

being concentrated.  If you have an air compressor you will have to drain it

occasionally.

The energy you are adding by compressing the air is released when the air is

uncompressed.  Very little of the energy used to compress the air is

transfered to the air as heat.

After the compressed air has lost most of its heat, it will absorb heat when

it is uncompressed.

>

If you are still confused, please e-mail me privately

Best regards

Dale Robinson

prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net

http//home.att.net/~prof-robinson/page7.html

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| Message 24                                                          |

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Subject: A thought about Urine

From:    Michael Strates 

Date:    Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:40:52 +1100 (EST)

Just a thought..

For those people (like me) that go to work or study for some reason.. how

about just capturing the morning urine. That wouldn't be that much of an

inconvenience, and the morning urine is about as potent as all of the

daytime stuff put together.

Anybody feel free to comment.

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| Message 25                                                          |

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Subject: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)

From:    Gordon Watkins 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:28:31 -0600

I recently visited a commercial aquaponics operation in Oklahoma which has been

running sucessfully for fifteen years and for several years the only

supplemental heat for the large 30,000 gallon tilapia tank housed in an

uninsulated metal building was the heat produced by a 137 cfm air blower. The

owner measured an air temperature rise of 18 degrees F. for every 1 lb. of air

pressure. Maybe a blower is different from a compressor?

                                Gordon

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| Message 26                                                          |

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Subject: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel

From:    Gordon Watkins 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:30:30 -0600

About a year and a half ago, I released a few worms in my gravel beds, both red

wigglers and night crawlers. I was dubious as to how well they would adapt to

gravel but I had some of each left over from a fishing trip so, what the hey, I

released them. Now I see many of each species whenever I disturb the gravel. I

also see little piles of castings on the surface of the beds each morning so I

suspect they may offset compaction and aid in good percolation. I've also seen

baby worms (wormlings?) in the fish vats where they have presumably washed

during

flood cycles. Besides providing feed for the fish, the worms also help

support the

small frogs I've released to help with pest control. There are many benefits to

worms in aquaponic systems but I have yet to identify a detriment. Above

all, they

add one more strand in the web of life and help create a more diverse and stable

mesocosm.

    I now have several bins where I raise quantities of red wigglers which help

compost spoiled produce, prunings, newsprint, etc. I harvest a few to feed my

tilapia breeders, use the tea to fertilize plant starts, and the compost

provides

potting soil. Worms have a secure and permanent place in my system.

                                    Gordon

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| Message 27                                                          |

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Subject: Re: A thought about Urine

From:    "Dale Robinson" 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 16:28:06 -0600

>

>Just a thought..

>

>For those people (like me) that go to work or study for some reason.. how

>about just capturing the morning urine. That wouldn't be that much of an

>inconvenience, and the morning urine is about as potent as all of the

>daytime stuff put together.

Urine is the waste products from the body.  If you eat too much salt, it

will go into the urine.  If you have diabetes, the urine will have some

sugar.  Urine also contains some acetone.  If you start using something in

your system that is always changing(according to what is in the diet amount

of exercise et.) then you don't know what is going to the plants.  Be safe

and don't pee on the plants.

The main advantage of using hydroponics as part of the aquaponic connection

is the ability to have control of what goes to the plants.  If you are going

to throw all kinds of unknowns at them, you would be better off growing them

in soil.  Soil acts as a buffer so you can make bigger mistakes without

losing the whole crop.

I don't mean to suggest that you change to soil gardening, just that it's

better to stick with that that works.

Best regards

Dale Robinson

prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net

http//home.att.net/~prof-robinsonpage7.html

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| Message 28                                                          |

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Subject: Re: A thought about Urine

From:    Michael Strates 

Date:    Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:15:55 +1100 (EST)

On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Dale Robinson wrote:

DR> Urine is the waste products from the body.  If you eat too much salt, it

DR> will go into the urine.  If you have diabetes, the urine will have some

DR> sugar.  Urine also contains some acetone.  If you start using something in

DR> your system that is always changing(according to what is in the diet amount

DR> of exercise et.) then you don't know what is going to the plants.  Be safe

DR> and don't pee on the plants.

I'm not talking about directly putting urine onto the plants. I'm talking

about using bacteria to convert the urea into nitrate, and then perhaps

using reverse osmosis to seperate salt and other impurities from the

mixture (I think nitrate will go through the RO membrane okay.. anybody

know??). Then distill the nitrate, and collect the powder for use as a

high nitrogen nutrient.

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| Message 29                                                          |

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Subject: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel

From:    "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:58:18 -0700 (MST)

Gordon: Thank you for your encouraging words. I will add worms to our

greywater hydroponics tomorrow. But what in the world is "mesocosm"? Is

that your word, or does it exist in the real world? I like the idea of

frogs. I have 2 marshes, as part of the greywater treatment process and

perhaps they would be happy there. Has anything been written about frogs

in such a small ecosystem ("mesocosm"?). Thanks again for your worthy

comments. Jorg Ostrowski

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| Message 30                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)

From:    "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:02:18 -0700 (MST)

Gordon: I would like more info on this interesting backup heating system.

I know that if your put compressed air into a vortex tube, the spiralling

air produces warm air out one end and cool air out the other end. This

is well known technology. But what is this chap using? Jorg ostrowski

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| Message 31                                                          |

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Subject: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel

From:    Michael Strates 

Date:    Mon, 15 Feb 1999 00:08:17 +1100 (EST)

On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Gordon Watkins wrote:

GW> About a year and a half ago, I released a few worms in my gravel

GW> beds, both red wigglers and night crawlers. I was dubious as to

I'd be suprised if they were nightcrawlers. Nightcrawlers build permanent

burrows in which thye will reside for the rest of their lives. When

harvesting night crawlers, the people destroy the burrows, and the

nightcrawler must make another one. 

They cannot stand being crowded like redworms, and instead burrow very,

very deep (some have been traced to going over 8 feet down!) into the

soil. They cannot and will not live happily in a vermicomposting

environment, let alone gravel. Nightcrawlers REQUIRE soil.

Perhaps you put a different species of night crawler in?? I know they

cannot survive in areas with low soil content.

-- 

e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net   www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates

See keyservers for PGP info.  Linux! The OS of my Choice!

"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned

skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."

- Leonardo da Vinci, and below an extract from John Fogerty's song:

Hey, Tonight - Gonna be tonight- Don't you know I'm flyin'- Tonight

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| Message 32                                                          |

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Subject: Earthworms and Pathogens

From:    mdsenger@webtv.net (Michael Senger)

Date:    Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:54:04 -0700 (MST)

I think many are missing the point -  you can not disinfect an active

aquaponics system.  The fresh fish feces will almost always contain

harmful bacterium.  Eat some  or get some on the leaves of your lettuce

and don't wash it off  -  you will probably get at least a little sick. 

The growing media, sand,  gravel, plastic whatever it is, will over time

develop bacterium appropriate to consume whatever  pathogens are

present.  

The earthworms are just like little tractors tilling and aerating the

media and farming the beneficial bacteria. 

I would never want to use chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) - the dioxide

cancer danger is very real.

I personally never disinfect anything in any of my systems. I believe

the key is to let nature develop complex aerobic bacterial cultures.

Just keep it aereated and don't exceed the systems capacity to process

the fish wastes and food detritus.    

I think you could actually eat manure and  other nasty rotting organics

after these things have been "touched" by earthworms.  Basically just

eat a big mouhful of worms, worm feces  and garbage.  Not only won't you

get sick,  but you may actually benefit from the beneficial bacteria.

These are my observations.         

S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124

Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/



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