Aquaponics Digest - Sun 02/14/99
Message 1: Re: Solar Cells, NAI and Prez Carter
from Jose Pelleya
Message 2: RE: Tilapia Tank Culture (James Rakocy)
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 3: Re: ?the short history of aquaponics?
from james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Message 4: Re: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)
from Gordon Watkins
Message 5: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel
from Gordon Watkins
Message 6: Re: Tilapia Tank Culture (James Rakocy)
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 7: RE: identifying crayfish from Florida
from "Ronald W. Brooks"
Message 8: Re: A thought about Urine
from "Marc S. Nameth"
Message 9: Re: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)
from "Mel Riser"
Message 10: Re: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 11: Re: A thought about Urine
from Michael Strates
Message 12: Re: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)
from "Marc S. Nameth"
Message 13: Re: [iaq] Water Treatment
from doelle
Message 14: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens
from doelle
Message 15: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens
from doelle
Message 16: Re: ??R?e?: ?eart?hwo?rm ?&
path?ogens????????????????????????????????????????
from doelle
Message 17: Re: mental compost and the mutant pool
from doelle
Message 18: Re: Urine for fertilizer
from doelle
Message 19: Re: mental compost and the mutant pool
from Jim Sealy Jr
Message 20: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens
from doelle
Message 21: Re: mental compost and the mutant pool
from doelle
Message 22: Genetical engineered food
from doelle
Message 23: Re: A thought about Urine
from "Marc S. Nameth"
Message 24: Re: Urine for fertilizer
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 25: Re: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 26: Ugly e-mail
from "Ronald W. Brooks"
Message 27: Re: Pool turning into Reality (Aquaponic Apparel?
from jilli and lars
Message 28: Re: A thought about Urine
from jilli and lars
Message 29: Re: Solar Cells, NAI and Prez Carter
from jilli and lars
Message 30: Re: ?the short history of aquaponics?
from jilli and lars
Message 31: Re: A thought about Urine
from jilli and lars
Message 32: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel
from jilli and lars
Message 33: Re: Genetical engineered food
from jilli and lars
Message 34: Re: mental compost and the mutant pool
from Michael Strates
Message 35: Re: A thought about Urine
from Michael Strates
Message 36: Urine for plant culture
from "Frank Adams"
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: Solar Cells, NAI and Prez Carter
From: Jose Pelleya
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:55:03 -0700
And I was told by someone that it was Billy Carter (remember "Billy Beer")
who did a lot of the ground work for the use of the red earthworm (foetida)
in vermicomposting.
I like Jimmy. He admitted to lust in his heart but did not recruit Wite
House interns. And he related the episode of the attacking rabbit with no
fear of ridicule.
And he's out building houses with Habitat for Humanity.
Jose
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Subject: RE: Tilapia Tank Culture (James Rakocy)
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:08:13 -0400 (AST)
>James:
>
> I=B4m currently designing a project involving 24 - 27 80 m3 circular=
tanks.
In M=E9xico, Tilapia has traditionally been grown in semi extensive sistems=
up
to sizes no larger than 500 gr. However, I'm interested in obtaining 1,000
gr fish for export both as hole gutted fish and as fillets. Density is a
vital factor in my considerations because of all of the aspects that need
to be dealt with. Ammonia removal, aereation, feeding rate and other
factors have to be carefully planed (obviously) but there is not a lot of
info on hiper intensive tilapia culture at commercial levels (or I haven't
found it). I'm also deciding if a closed system is better or, if there is a
good water source, just use an open system. But because of the strict
regulations on export fish and seafood and the questionable quality of the
water sources in my selected sites (Veracruz or Oaxaca), perhaps I rather
use de closed system. I=B4m not sure eather what hidroponic area would I
need for a fish culture the size I intend to make. Another option is a
simple water treatment plant an a Biofilter, but it'd be nice to have a
surplus a side from beeing a very instructive operation for the folks down=
here.
>Any thoughts?
>
>Best regards.
>
>Alejandro
Alejandro, A 1,000 g fish would be to big to sell as whole gutted. Some very
cheap whole fish are coming in from Taiwan and you might have a tough time
competing. The fillet market too is also competitive. Let's say that fresh
fillets go for $3.50. You need to be produce the fish for 1/5th to 1/4th
this price in the round, uncleaned. That is 0.70 to 0.88/lb. You always
divide the fillet price by 3 to calculate the price in the round since only
33% of the fish is fillet. That would be $1.17. The rest covers processing
or packaging. A flow-through system would be the least expensive if you
could get gravity flow. You can also get very high densities with flow
through. Closed systems are generally too expensive, and that's why the U.S.
producers must sell to the live fish market. They cannot produce fillets
economically. Labor is high and they must grow in heated buildings. If you
cannot get good water, maybe you should consider greenwater tanks or cage
culture, which is very cheap. Any big reservoirs there? For greenwater tank
culture at 17 kg/m3 twice a year with 24 80 m3 tanks you maybe could produce
65,280 kg (143,616 lbs). That would give 47,393 lbs of fillets worth perhaps
$165,876. Now the trick is to get the production cost below $0.70. We are
going to build and test 200 m3 tanks. They may be more economical.
Ultimately, I would like to see 1000 m3 tanks. Jim R. =20
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Subject: Re: ?the short history of aquaponics?
From: james.rakocy@uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:36:09 -0400 (AST)
>
>
>James Rakocy, Ph.D. wrote: .
>
>
>> lars wrote:
>
>>
>> >
>> > By the way, a study titled "An Ecological Approach to a Water
>> >Recirculating System for Salmonids: Preliminary Experience" (Kenneth T.
MacKay
>> >and Wayne Van Toever) was also presented at the same symposium that
year. I'm
>> >wondering if this was one of the first published studies of what eventually
>> >became 'aquaponics'. But I was 12 at the time, so i don't really know.
Anybody
>> >else?
>>
>> It was not the first. I first saw the term "aquaponics" in an Alternative
>> Aquaculture Network (an offshoot of the Rodale project) newsletter article
>> in the late 80s. It's a very good term because before that we were calling
>> them integrated systems, which could refer to almost anything.
>
>----------------------------------
>
> Just to clarify: I'm not saying it was the first use of the *term*
>'aquaponics'. Nor is that what I was wondering.
>
> I was wondering whether it was one of the first uses of aquaponic
*techniques*
>(ie. hydroponic beds with bacteria for filtering water from fish culture
tanks), at
>least in a controlled study (It was presented in 1981).
>
> I'm curious about the history of this method. It seems so strange that
something
>so simple and obvious would have it's origins so recently.
>
> I'm also interested in the social contexts that create fertile
ground for
>these ideas.
>
> lars
>
There was a paper by Sneed et al. in Aquaculture and the Fish Farmer in
1975, one by Naegel in 1977 in Aquaculture, one by Landesman in 1977 in
Essays on Food and Energy and one by Lewis in 1978 Transactions of the
American Fisheries Society. And Len Pampel already had a patent on a similar
system for treating aviary house wastewater by the late 50s. Jim R.
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Subject: Re: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:40:59 -0600
It's a belt-driven regenerative blower such as is commonly used for moving
air in
larger aquaculture operations. They're much more efficient than smaller
diaphragm or
piston pumps and will move large volumes of air but are VERY noisy and are
usually
housed separate from the working area. I suspect the heat generated may be
due to
friction in the distribution lines rather than from any compression that may
occur.
The folks I mentioned (Inslee Fish Farm) use the blower not only for
aeration but
for circulation and moving water via airlifts as well. No water pumps are used.
Although he generated some waste heat, he decided after 4 years that it wasn't
sufficient for optimal production of his tilapia and installed a wood
burning furnace
with a water jacket.
Gordon
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Subject: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:07:25 -0600
Your points are the very reasons I was so dubious. Perhaps they were a
different species, although they were sold as nightcrawlers and were much
larger (>6") than the wigglers. Although I don't see as many of them as the
wigglers in my beds, I do still see them when I dig around. Perhaps they're
the ones bringing castings to the surface.
Gordon
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Subject: Re: Tilapia Tank Culture (James Rakocy)
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:09:06 -0500
Now the trick is to get the production cost below $0.70. We are
> going to build and test 200 m3 tanks. They may be more economical.
> Ultimately, I would like to see 1000 m3 tanks. Jim R.
Jim and Alejandro,
I know someoone in Alabama who is producing Tilapia for $.64/lb.
He is using ponds and buying 30 tons of feed at a time. The fish
are hand fed. They started out with cage culture but quit when
they noticed that the "escapees" in the same pond were growing
twice as fast as their captive brothers.
Adriana
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Subject: RE: identifying crayfish from Florida
From: "Ronald W. Brooks"
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:10:37 -0500
Jorg
go to http://bioag.byu.edu/mlbean/crayfish/crayhome.htm
and then you can see pictures of crawfish and you then will be able to
identify yours
Ron
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Subject: Re: A thought about Urine
From: "Marc S. Nameth"
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:24:51 -0700
No. Nitrate will not be selectively passed through a R/O
membrane.
Membrane technology is selective in that, based on a
membrane rating, the membrane will pass ANY substance below
a certain size, typically measured in angstroms and affected
by substance electrical charge to some degree.
If you grow plants using the pee then compost them wouldn't
that be a way to recycle the nitrates ? The main drawback
would be time required.
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Subject: Re: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)
From: "Mel Riser"
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:52:52 -0600
The air compression creates heat is correct. However you are going to only
get alot of heat if you compress many thousands of pounds.
Whenever 3000 psi scuba tanks are filled, they are kept in a water bath to
help reduce the heat.
In addition, the compressor that is actually compressing the air is putting
our ALOT OF HEAT !..
My experience with compressors in the Paint/Nail gun range 100 to 200 psi
put out alot of heat but not as much as a high compression rig.
I have several blowers in my greenhouse eand the motors generate some heat
but not alot. I think the fans actually create air that takes heat OUT.
(Wind feels cool at higher velocity taking heat ourt of the air)
mr
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Subject: Re: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:59:19 -0600
OK, OK, so I didn't follow the thread very well and didn't understand that
the compressed air was used as it was being compressed. 8>(Foot).
I have always used air compressors to store air for use.
Stored compressed air will cool the water.
Freshly compressed air will warm the water. freshly compressed air has not
had time to for the heat to equalize. Water absorbs heat quickly.
Sorry I was talking about one process and you were talking about another.
Perhaps it's not a total loss if someone uses these principals to cool water
in the summer.
Best regards
Dale Robinson
prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net
http//home.att.net/~prof-robinson/page7.html
IF YOU ARE A NEWBE, check out my links page for suppliers, information and
other mail groups like this one. I have links to gardening, hydroponics and
aquaculture.
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Subject: Re: A thought about Urine
From: Michael Strates
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:19:13 +1100 (EST)
On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Marc S. Nameth wrote:
MSN> Membrane technology is selective in that, based on a
MSN> membrane rating, the membrane will pass ANY substance below
MSN> a certain size, typically measured in angstroms and affected
MSN> by substance electrical charge to some degree.
So nitrate will not pass through it? That rules out using RO to get the
sodium chloride out of the processed urine.
--
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Subject: Re: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)
From: "Marc S. Nameth"
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:45:46 -0700
Anytime you use a system to create potential energy
(compressed air) you must face the fact that the system you
are using is not 100% efficient. You will have losses
(heat).
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Subject: Re: [iaq] Water Treatment
From: doelle
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:02:36 +1100
Thanks Marc not only for your answer but also for the interesting webpage.
Horst
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Subject: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens
From: doelle
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:08:34 +1100
Michael,
I like to see your bacterial counts. I do not believe that you remove all
the pathogens, that is bacteria and viruses. With your system as described
below, this is impossible. A lot of pathogens are sporeformers and thus
require well above 60C. Anaerobiosis such as anaerobic digestion or
composting is much more effective.
Unless proven wrong by detailed analuses I do not believe your system is safe.
Horst
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Subject: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens
From: doelle
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:12:03 +1100
I certainly like your system better and I am more confident about the
pathogenicity problem.
Horst
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Subject: Re: ??R?e?: ?eart?hwo?rm ?&
path?ogens????????????????????????????????????????
From: doelle
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:21:45 +1100
Lars,
If the aquaponic system is run with clean water and the food is not in
contact with any manure type ingredienmts, you hardly require to worry about
pathogens.
However, our waters are very often polluted through various agricultural
treatments and water - whether rain or irrigation, leaches these pollutions
into the underwater stream and you have problems. Thus you require
treatment. It is the same story with drinking water.
You may have heard that we in Australia had the whole water supply system
for Sydney in danger through Giardia infection from somwhere - the
Government never told us where it came from. For two weeks, the lakes and
water reservoirs had to be cleaned , filtered etc etc.
It is not a question of being scared, rather of being aware that they might
be there and caution is better than a medical bill.
HorstHorst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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Subject: Re: mental compost and the mutant pool
From: doelle
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:24:07 +1100
Would you kindly discuss that issue on a private line. We 'foreigners' are
really not interested in these solely US problems of political nature.
I really appreciate your help.
Horst
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Subject: Re: Urine for fertilizer
From: doelle
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:26:51 +1100
I fully agree, Adriana and have heard about these systems too. Again, this
is ok as long as people 'donating' urine are healthy and have NO urinary
tract infection and people operating the compost wear protective gear, e.g.
gloves. THAT IS OFTEN A PROBLEM.
Horst
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Subject: Re: mental compost and the mutant pool
From: Jim Sealy Jr
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:30:17 -0600
Horst,
I've been on this list a good while now, and lately it's degenerated to
the point of near uselessness to me because of incessant, pompous,
babbling about pathogens, urine, methods of introducing e.coli, etc by
using 3rd world feed methods, etc. and you have the nerve to point up
someone for discussing something 'You' aren't interested in hearing?
Jim
Sick of the noise and signing off.
doelle wrote:
>
> Would you kindly discuss that issue on a private line. We 'foreigners' are
really not interested in these solely US problems of political nature.
> I really appreciate your help.
> Horst
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Subject: Re: Earthworms and Pathogens
From: doelle
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:47:08 +1100
you wrote:
>I think many are missing the point - you can not disinfect an active
>aquaponics system. The fresh fish feces will almost always contain
>harmful bacterium. Eat some or get some on the leaves of your lettuce
>and don't wash it off - you will probably get at least a little sick.
>
>The growing media, sand, gravel, plastic whatever it is, will over time
>develop bacterium appropriate to consume whatever pathogens are
>present.
I am not so sure who is missing the point. There are no bacteria who can eat
up pathogens. That is nonsense.
You can kill pathogens partly by aeration, but mainly by composting and
anaerobic digestion owing to heat or low redoxpotential. It is the
environmental conditions which kill pathogens and NOT some bacteria.
Having worked for over 20 years in Asia, I also know that the digestive
track of people there is different from other countries. Furthermore, India
still has a very high infectious disease rate - not from your system may be,
but certainly from not well treated waters. You still have to boil water
before drinking etc etc.
I still like to see bacterial counts before and after your 'treatment '.
Horst
>
>The earthworms are just like little tractors tilling and aerating the
>media and farming the beneficial bacteria.
>
>I would never want to use chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) - the dioxide
>cancer danger is very real.
>
>I personally never disinfect anything in any of my systems. I believe
>the key is to let nature develop complex aerobic bacterial cultures.
>Just keep it aereated and don't exceed the systems capacity to process
>the fish wastes and food detritus.
>I think you could actually eat manure and other nasty rotting organics
>after these things have been "touched" by earthworms. Basically just
>eat a big mouhful of worms, worm feces and garbage. Not only won't you
>get sick, but you may actually benefit from the beneficial bacteria.
>
>These are my observations.
>
>
>
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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Subject: Re: mental compost and the mutant pool
From: doelle
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:57:36 +1100
Well Jim, You can continue and I put it into trash as you probably put my
answers to pathogens.
All I am saying is we have been fed with so much US politics lately and how
one wastes money as the outcome was known months or a year ago, that we
wonder what it has to do on this discussion group.
I do not mind if you continue.
Horst
At 04:30 PM 14/02/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Horst,
>I've been on this list a good while now, and lately it's degenerated to
>the point of near uselessness to me because of incessant, pompous,
>babbling about pathogens, urine, methods of introducing e.coli, etc by
>using 3rd world feed methods, etc. and you have the nerve to point up
>someone for discussing something 'You' aren't interested in hearing?
>
>Jim
>Sick of the noise and signing off.
>
>
>doelle wrote:
>>
>> Would you kindly discuss that issue on a private line. We 'foreigners'
are really not interested in these solely US problems of political nature.
>> I really appreciate your help.
>> Horst
>
>
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Genetical engineered food
From: doelle
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:18:00 +1100
Dear Adrian,
I am very often criticised and attacked when I cautionm people about
pathogens and in particular about genetically altered or modified food.
Since this also came up recently in the case of tilapia - if I remember
correctly, and it also could affect aquaponics through the food you
purchase, I like to draw the attention to a newspaper article of 14th
February here in Australia, as it particularly concerns US companies.
I cite ' Researchers in the UK, US and Europe say genes in food altered to
enhance crop production could cause organ damage, the release of toxic
substances into the body, and human immunity to antibiotics.. Already a
mistake in manufacturing a genetically engineered health supplement that
promoted weight loss and sleep caused 37 deaths and 1500 people to be
disabled after they ingested the supplement tryptophan in the US in 1988.
Billion dollar biotechnology conglomerates such as Monsanto and DuPont from
North America, AgrEvro of Germany and Novartis of Switzerland, are involved
in millions of dollars of research altering the genes of fruits and
vegetables and distributing the modified seeds and plants worldwide.
'Gene changes can also alter the make-up of foods. A team led by German
scientist Dr.H.Sandermann has discovered that genetically altered soybeans
produce larger amounts of phytoestrogen, a plant equivalent to the female
hormone estrogen causing - according to British scientists - feminisation of
male babies and girls to reach puberty prematurely.''
I thought this may justify in some way my cautioning, as it not only occurs
in developing countries, but on our front door steps.
Australia, I hope, will now follow Germany and other European countries to
force a labelling of these goods on our shelves etc.
Sorry and my apologies to all those members on the group discussions who
believe this does not belong here, but I think we all have to start to be
concerned.
I still maintain my question ' why do we have to genetically engineer in
agriculture and why do we have to take shortcuts in regard to pathogen
prevention in our foods'.
Horst
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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Subject: Re: A thought about Urine
From: "Marc S. Nameth"
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:19:25 -0700
Depending on the rating/type of membrane you CAN pass
nitrate, sodium chloride or other things but you may expect
to ALSO pass substances that are of a smaller molecular
weight than the largest substance you want to pass.
With membranes you'll find two commonly used references for
what a membrane will do. Molecular weight cut-off and size
(usually in micrometers or angstroms) but electrical charge
of the molecule(s) and their shape can offer influence. The
larger molecular weight cut-off membranes have more
dependence on molecule or particle size and are not
considered true reverse osmosis by some authors.
NOTE: Reverse osmosis (R/O) is a phrase that would be better
replaced with the term(s) "membrane" or "membrane
technology".
A few of many membrane info sites may be found at the
following:
http://osmonics.com/library/filspc.htm
http://www.dow.com/cgi-bin/frameup.cgi?/liquidseps (click on
"membrane products" to access the different technologies)
http://www.waternet.com/GetArticle.asp?Article=210315
So you can be selective about the LARGEST thing you want to
pass but you should be prepared for the additional stuff
that will come with it.
If you employ a two membrane system you could pass the
nitrate and smaller stuff THROUGH the first membrane then a
different membrane could REJECT the nitrate and similar
size/molecular weight substances. The precision or size of
the substance selection window would depend on the "cut-off"
accuracy of the membrane technology employed.
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Subject: Re: Urine for fertilizer
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:53:59 -0500
doelle wrote:
>
> I fully agree, Adriana and have heard about these systems too. Again, this
is ok as long as people 'donating' urine are healthy and have NO urinary
tract infection and people operating the compost wear protective gear, e.g.
gloves. THAT IS OFTEN A PROBLEM.
Horst,
I went back to the source of information and it was actually a
project in Sri Lanka developed by Victor Dalpadado. My
understanding is that the composting operation is run in groups
of 3 workers and they donate their own urine. This provides a
high nitrogen contribution which speeds up the heating of the
compost piles. In this case they are working with their own
germs only. Having been born and raised in Latin America I would
be very surprised if they use any protective gear.
Adriana
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Subject: Re: Compressed Air (was Solar Cells in production)
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:40:13 EST
Hi people,I'm the one who started this Heated debate on compressed air,and I
would like to apologize to everyone on this list server,if I promise not to
ask any more questions,but just listen,will you stop sending me ugly e-mail?
Please,and Thankyou, Ken Lott
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| Message 26 |
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Subject: Ugly e-mail
From: "Ronald W. Brooks"
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:07:08 -0500
Most of the time I have a live and let live policy
If I am not interested I don't read it.
But it is time for me to rant and get on my soapbox
Are we here to learn from one another and share our knowledge ?
Are we going to stoop so low to send ugly email to people that hold
different views ?
are we going to scare all newbie's that make an effort to get involved and
learn ?
what is this list coming to ?
The question on compressed air was not so off topic to rate ugly emails to
the questioner! I will be the first to admit I don't know everything and
need to learn more. But what right does anyone have to harass someone else
to shut them up ! for this is what has happened
Ron
The One Who Walks Two Paths
who is fuming and on the warpath
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| Message 27 |
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Subject: Re: Pool turning into Reality (Aquaponic Apparel?
From: jilli and lars
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:49:26 -0800
Hi michael -
Michael Strates wrote:
> If what I'm saying is correct, then over a seven day period, we would have
> generated:
>
> 60 x 7 = 420 grams of solids.
>
> Lets round that off to 400 grams.. I buy my hydroponic nutrient in 400
> gram packs! It lasts me three weeks.
So are you saying that you are wasting your money by buying processed,
manufactured hydroponic nutrients when you are generating more than enough
nutrients from your own urine?
lars
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| Message 28 |
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Subject: Re: A thought about Urine
From: jilli and lars
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:37:02 -0800
Michael Strates wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Dale Robinson wrote:
>
> DR> Urine is the waste products from the body. If you eat too much salt, it
> DR> will go into the urine. If you have diabetes, the urine will have some
> DR> sugar. Urine also contains some acetone. If you start using something in
> DR> your system that is always changing(according to what is in the diet
amount
> DR> of exercise et.) then you don't know what is going to the plants. Be safe
> DR> and don't pee on the plants.
>
> I'm not talking about directly putting urine onto the plants. I'm talking
> about using bacteria to convert the urea into nitrate, and then perhaps
> using reverse osmosis to seperate salt and other impurities from the
> mixture (I think nitrate will go through the RO membrane okay.. anybody
> know??). Then distill the nitrate, and collect the powder for use as a
> high nitrogen nutrient.
Hey folks -
These salts you are thinking of _removing_ from urine are probably
the same
salts that you are _buying_ when you buy processed hydroponic nutrients.
Hydroponic nutrients are moslty various mineral salts. Urine has a lot of
various
mineral salts.
How did these salts get into your urine?
Some of these salts probably came from that tomato you ate yesterday.
What would a hydroponic tomato plant like in its nutrient solution?
Probably the same thing that was a tomato before your body broke it down
when you
ate it.
This past summer I made a small experimental greywater-processing
aquaponic
system. One of the main things I added was urine.
Initially I was quite timid about adding urine, especially because my
system was so small (about 20 gallons of water and maybe 10 different kinds of
plants growing in a trickle-onto-gravel system). I would add maybe half a
cup every
4 days or so and the i'd wait to see if the whole system collapsed. I really
expected disaster. However, the plants seemed to really like it, and the fauna
didn't seem to mind, and no horrible smells came from the tanks. So I started
adding more urine more frequently.
The four tomato plants I had in the system started growing really fast -
very noticable growth every day! They were very, very vigorous - it was scary.
Eventually I was adding a quart of urine every 3 or 4 days - remember this
is only
a 20 gallon system! I never noticed any bad smells (this was an indoor system).
Eventually the plants completely filled the window I was growing them
against and I
had to start cutting them back. Their fruit were also nearly ripe. They also
started showing distinct symptoms of having too many nutrients (leaves
curled back
and a massive aphid infestation).
I had, of course, passed the limit of how much urine I could add,
especially as the plants were finished with their main growth cycle. I *do not*
recommend adding *that much* urine to a system *that small*. However, it was
quite
obvious to me that urine and bacteria-based hydroponics DO mix. However, I don't
think it should be the only nutrient source. Eventually I will be doing more
experiments in terms of figuring out the proper-sized system for handling
the urine
from an individual, but I am confident that a mostly urine-based
greywater-to-food
hydroponic system can work. If the system is properly sized, I don't believe the
urea would stay in the system long enough to cause any harm to fish, either.
lars fields
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| Message 29 |
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Subject: Re: Solar Cells, NAI and Prez Carter
From: jilli and lars
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:25:43 -0800
Jose Pelleya wrote:
> And I was told by someone that it was Billy Carter (remember "Billy Beer")
> who did a lot of the ground work for the use of the red earthworm (foetida)
> in vermicomposting.
hey jose-
Wow. I never heard that before. I'd really appreciate if anybody can verify
that.
lars
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| Message 30 |
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Subject: Re: ?the short history of aquaponics?
From: jilli and lars
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:42:04 -0800
James Rakocy, Ph.D. wrote:
> There was a paper by Sneed et al. in Aquaculture and the Fish Farmer in
> 1975, one by Naegel in 1977 in Aquaculture, one by Landesman in 1977 in
> Essays on Food and Energy and one by Lewis in 1978 Transactions of the
> American Fisheries Society. And Len Pampel already had a patent on a similar
> system for treating aviary house wastewater by the late 50s. Jim R.
Thanks a lot for that information. Next time i'm in berkeley i'll look those
papers up.
lars
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| Message 31 |
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Subject: Re: A thought about Urine
From: jilli and lars
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:30:02 -0800
Hi dale -
Dale Robinson wrote:
> Urine is the waste products from the body. If you eat too much salt, it
> will go into the urine. If you have diabetes, the urine will have some
> sugar. Urine also contains some acetone. If you start using something in
> your system that is always changing(according to what is in the diet amount
> of exercise et.) then you don't know what is going to the plants. Be safe
> and don't pee on the plants.
One thing I noticed is that when I started adding my own urine to my
hydroponic experiments, is that I started paying more attention to what I ate.
Now I pay more attention to food product labels and I try to buy organic
produce.
Why shouldn't you pay as much attention to what you put in your body as
to what you put into your aquaponic system?
A personal aquaponic system should evolve into an intimate,
multi-tiered, mutualistic symbiont with it's human partner(s), very much as
lichens are a symbiosis between fungi and algae and most types of coral are a
symbiosis between animal and algae (In both cases, the waste products of the
fungi/animal become the food of the algae).
Be safe and only eat things that you'd want to feed to your aquaponic
symbionts.
Please note: i am not recommending this for commercial growers - there are
probably laws about these things. This is more for the home hobbyist
hydroponickers/aquaponickers who would be consuming what they grow
themselves.
> I don't mean to suggest that you change to soil gardening, just that it's
> better to stick with that that works.
If people always stuck with what simply worked, aquaponics wouldn't exist.
lars fields
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| Message 32 |
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Subject: Re: purpose of earthworms in gravel
From: jilli and lars
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:18:36 -0800
Gordon Watkins wrote:
> About a year and a half ago, I released a few worms in my gravel beds,
both red
>
> small frogs I've released to help with pest control. There are many
benefits to
> worms in aquaponic systems but I have yet to identify a detriment. Above
all, they
> add one more strand in the web of life and help create a more diverse and
stable
> mesocosm.
thanks for that info, Gordon.
What kind of frogs did you release? Tree frogs? One of the top predators
in my
system-in-progress is going to be White's tree frogs, a large and hardy
australian
species with apparently huge appetites. However, because of their size, they
can be
quite destructive to non-sturdy plants. I've also heard that certain frogs
eat slugs
besides many flying insects.
lars
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| Message 33 |
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Subject: Re: Genetical engineered food
From: jilli and lars
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:26:30 -0800
hi doelle -
if this list is an anarchic democracy (as it should be), my vote is
that the information you sent below DOES belong on this list. It's not like
we're wasting paper.
It just means more work for a computer anyway, so what's the
difference? The more pressure we put on the bandwidth, the wider it will
get. Most of the time your typical computer is sitting idle anyway.
lars fields
doelle wrote:
> Dear Adrian,
> I am very often criticised and attacked when I cautionm people about
pathogens and in particular about genetically altered or modified food.
Since this also came up recently in the case of tilapia - if I remember
> Sorry and my apologies to all those members on the group discussions who
believe this does not belong here, but I think we all have to start to be
concerned.
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| Message 34 |
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Subject: Re: mental compost and the mutant pool
From: Michael Strates
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:36:51 +1100 (EST)
On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Jim Sealy Jr wrote:
JSJ> I've been on this list a good while now, and lately it's degenerated to
JSJ> the point of near uselessness to me because of incessant, pompous,
JSJ> babbling about pathogens, urine, methods of introducing e.coli, etc by
JSJ> using 3rd world feed methods, etc. and you have the nerve to point up
JSJ> someone for discussing something 'You' aren't interested in hearing?
The water quality of the aquaponics liquid is a very important issue. I
too had the same feelings as you earlier this year, but decided to accept
the noise after some of it became useful to me.
There is a "next" command in your mailreader. Please don't consider this a
flame because its not - just merely stating the facts.
--
e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates
See keyservers for PGP info. Linux! The OS of my Choice!
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."
- Leonardo da Vinci, and below an extract from John Fogerty's song:
Hey, Tonight - Gonna be tonight- Don't you know I'm flyin'- Tonight
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| Message 35 |
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Subject: Re: A thought about Urine
From: Michael Strates
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:50:39 +1100 (EST)
On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, jilli and lars wrote:
jal> These salts you are thinking of _removing_ from urine
jal> are probably the same salts that you are _buying_ when you buy
jal> processed hydroponic nutrients. Hydroponic nutrients are moslty
jal> various mineral salts. Urine has a lot of various mineral salts.
The only salt I wanted to remove was sodium chloride. The problems I
foresee in running a tiny urine based hydroponics setup is mainly the
buildup of sodium chloride due to evaporation, transpiration, etc.. in the
nutrient solution. Therefore, I'd assume that it would be imperative to
flush about 10% of the water from the nutrient tanks every 2 weeks.
--
e-mail: mstrates@croftj.net www: http://www.croftj.net/~mstrates
See keyservers for PGP info. Linux! The OS of my Choice!
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."
- Leonardo da Vinci, and below an extract from John Fogerty's song:
Hey, Tonight - Gonna be tonight- Don't you know I'm flyin'- Tonight
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| Message 36 |
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Subject: Urine for plant culture
From: "Frank Adams"
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:56:27 -0600
I think you'll find that the Sodium concentration in Urine is too high for
hydroponic/Aquaponic systems. I found what I think to be the concentration
of Sodium in Urine and it's 2.5/mEq/kg/24h mEq is the same as mMoles in
this case.
That means a 180 lb. person should excrete 204 mMoles of Sodium per day or
about 4.5 grams (The equivalent of 11 grams of sodium chloride--table salt).
This could vary based on the amount consumed in the diet. Eat a lot of salty
foods and the concentration will go up. This value was given as maintenance
(basal) excretion.
I got this value from a paediatric urology web site, so the values for
adults may be slightly different, but I think you can see that this is would
not be ideal for acquaponics.
Other tidbits:
A normal adult produces between 800 and 1500 mL of urine per day.
Most of the nitrogen is in the form of Urea from the metabolism of amino
acids.
Acetone is a sign of disease and should not normally be detected in Urine.
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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