Aquaponics Digest - Tue 02/23/99
Message 1: RE: Lettuce post-harvest handling
from Andrew
Message 2: Re: tank paint
from jilli and lars
Message 3: Re: bacteria and genetic exchange...
from jilli and lars
Message 4: Re: natural pond building
from "Sam Levy"
Message 5: Re: natural pond building
from jilli and lars
Message 6: Re: natural pond building
from jilli and lars
Message 7: Re: natural pond building
from jilli and lars
Message 8: Re: natural pond building
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 9: Re: bacteria and genetic exchange...
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 10: Re: natural pond building
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 11: Re: natural pond building
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 12: Re: natural pond building
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 13: Re: natural pond building
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 14: Re: natural pond building
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 15: Re: natural pond building
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 16: Re: good bacteria
from "brett deiser"
Message 17: Evolution of Mitochondria and chloroplasts
from wwarren
Message 18: Re: Evolution of Mitochondria and chloroplasts
from "Vaughan Davidson, CPA"
Message 19: Re: natural pond building
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 20: Re: tank paint
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 21: Re: natural pond building
from PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Message 22: Re: Evolution of Mitochondria and chloroplasts
from "Ted Ground"
Message 23: Only 2 things that $ can't buy
from "Ted Ground"
Message 24: Re: natural pond building
from "brett deiser"
Message 25: Re: bacteria and genetic exchange...
from doelle
Message 26: Re: bacteria and genetic exchange...
from doelle
Message 27: Re: Only 2 things that $ can't buy
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 28: Re: Paint info received
from KLOTTTRUE
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: RE: Lettuce post-harvest handling
From: Andrew
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:27:02 +1030
[Andrew] Regarding post harvest of hydro lettuce.
We built a chiller unit that washed and chilled fancy lettuce mixes =
before being weighed and packed. These lettuces were then bulk packed =
into styro boxes and sent to the airport chefs for use on the domestic =
flight meals. Very lucrative. Turn around is 18 days per head. =20
=20
The washing process was simple in that we used flow aeration to agitate =
and remove dusts etc while still continuing the flow on process of =
lettuce through the chill and wash system. Chilling the lettuce =
definitely increased shelf life.=20
We can supply the aeration units to the U.S however freight costs and =
the lead time may vary to the final destination.
Cost is Aus $69.00. t/ex=20
The units can run parallel or individually and can be configured to a =
number of pumping scenarios.
Andrew=20
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: tank paint
From: jilli and lars
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:02:44 -0800
Hi jean -
MS JEAN R SHAFFER wrote:
> Hi Glennert
>
> Here's what my paint man sold me:
> "Simpson Coatings" Jet Black (104-017) Cordurite Epoxy
> Manufactured by The Simpson Coatings Group
> 111 South Maple Ave South
> San Francisco CA 94080
> toll free 1 - 800 - 877- 5997
are you sure that's not :
111 South Maple Ave.
South San Francisco, CA ....
?
cuz there is no South Maple Ave in SanFran, but there is another city
called South San Francisco. (which is a good thing, as i live in SF and i
wouldn't want an epoxy paint factory in _my_ backyard...)
lars
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: bacteria and genetic exchange...
From: jilli and lars
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:00:07 -0800
doelle,
I do you the courtesy of carefully reading what you write. I only
ask that you do the same for me. I take much time to compose my messages so
that they are clear and understandable, which is pretty uncommon in
listservers, so i'd appreciate if you would stop wasting my efforts by
merely glancing at what i write. Or at least wait till you get to
the end of the document before you start writing your responses.
I understand that you work in the field of microbiology, but that
does not mean that you have omniscient knowledge of all that is going on in
the field, nor does it mean that someone from outside the field (ie. me)
could introduce you to some ideas which you may not have been exposed to.
There is no reason to beat people over the head with your
degree. I've never once tried to throw my credentials in your face. The
internet should be a place where people can talk as equals, or at least
equivalents. Do you spend your time on the internet to learn or merely to teach?
I also understand that, for some reason, disagreements on e-mail
tends to bring out the worst in people. Angers flare at the slightest hint
of different opinions. Lets try and keep the sarcasm and rudeness to a
minimum. I'm sure we'd be able to have this discussion quite civilly if we
were standing in the same room.
I realize that many people might feel that this discussion does not
belong on this list, but I hope that when you finish looking at the entire
document which follows, I think most will agree that this disagreement is
about critical information which forms the foundation of 'aquaponic theory',
just as bacteria are the foundation of our
aquaponical environments. I explain this at the bottom of the document.
more responses follow:
lf
doelle wrote:
> Hi Lars,
> Thanks for the magnificent lecture on microbiology, which I enjoyed,
although it is all very old hat and reminds me also on my student times. We
have much more advanced.
> >
> > I stated "Bacteria have various methods for transferring genetic
material across individuals and _even _across_species".
> >
> You mean that bacteria over centuries are able to mutate and develope,
which is, of course, very explicit part of evolution. This has neither
increased nor decreased, but is a very well known natural process.
I never said bacterial exchange has increased or decreased. I don't know
where you read this, nor do i understand why you are making this point.Can
you clarify?
lf
> However, these possible gene exchanges can only occur between similar
types and is very difficult across species. That is why we scientists
developed a more sophisticated hybridization in genetical engineering.
Bacteria are not able to exchange foreign genes, e.g. genes from an animal
can not proceed into a bacterium, even if you any virus you like.
I never said that genetic exchanges can occur between animals and
bacteria. I was referring to genetic exchange between different species of
bacteria, which is well documented, no matter how *apparently* rare it
appears to happen in a laboratory environment..
And you say that "gene exchanges can only occur between similar
types", which I have no disagreement with. However, if there is any genetic
exchange _at all_ between _any_ bacteria, then essentially _all_ bacteria
have potential exposure to the same gene pool as _all_ bacteria are related,
just as all people have exposure to the same ideas even
if all people don't speak every language. It just matters that people speak,
period.
For example, bacteria "A" might not be able to exchange RNA with
distantly related bacteria "D" directly, but bacteria "A" can exchange RNA
with closely related bacteria "B" which can exchange RNA with it's genetic
cousin bacteria "C" which _is_ closely related to bacteria "D". As all
bacteria are ultimately related, all bacteria can
potentially share genetic material with all others. These theories are
actually redefining the whole concept of bacteria as lifeforms, and whether
the concept of species is even valid when referring to bacteria.
If you need evidence, I refer you to the rapid spread of resistance
to antibiotics that _various_ species of bacteria have been demonstrating of
late. This process of bacterial genetic exchange, and its effect on
bacterial evolution, is _not_ a minor anomaly that only has effects to be
measured in millions of years - it is a major force of
evolution which has major effects on all life in extremely small time
periods. And while you bring up the subject of 'manufactured bacteria' :
Golden retrievers, english royalty, and iceberg lettuce are also the
results of our genetic tinkering. They've all had most traces of character
bred out of them to the point of blandness or retardation. I
much prefer mongrels, regular folks, and romaine. Of course, these things
are the result of genetic tinkerings as well, but with more recognition of
what the 'thing' was to begin with, instead of just narrowly focusing on
'what can we turn this into to make life easier', which is so often the case
with hybridization efforts. I much prefer things
with a bit of the 'wild' in them, they have more 'spice' and exhibit more
interesting behavior. The tendency of things to become homogenized needs no
new allies - death is already on it's side.
lf
> > I also asked if you had heard of Lynn Margulis. Her work is the main
source of this information. She's quite a famous, even celebrated,
> >microbiologist.
>
> I have never ever heard of Lynn Margulis and I am certainly moving in a
lot of microbiology cycles as a specialist microbiologist. I am not aware
where and when she was celebrated.
Here are some URL's you might want to check out:
If you'd like to talk to Ms. Margulis, I believe they're 'pulling her out of
mothballs' to talk about her " old theories" at a book signing next week at
Harvard University:
http://harvardbook.com/scholarly.html
Sorry, you already missed this next one; but she was the main speaker at the
International Symposium on Origins of Species and Evolutionary Change in
Madrid last June (boy, she sure gets around for an old lady, huh?...)
http://www.fundacionareces.es/presen35.htm
...where she also recieved another (7 in total) honorary degree:
http://www.umass.edu/newsoffice/press/98/0630margulis.html
However, some brief introductions to her theories might be in order before
you go:
http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~eeob/eeob405/lab_1_q05.html
http://www.copernicus-ny.com/titles/0-387-94927-5.html
http://heg-school.awl.com/bc/bio/active/Activity/AL/AL06.htm
http://magna.com.au/~prfbrown/gaia_lyn.html
Hey, why don't you tell her what you think of her theories yourself?
http://marlin.bio.umass.edu/faculty/biog/margulis.html
for the sake of brevity, i've left off most of the 880 references i found
when i did a HotBot boolean search for "Lynn Margulis and bacteria"...
lf
> > Additionally, sometime in the 60's, I believe, it was discovered that
mitochondria have their own genetic material. Soon after, the same thing was
> >found to be true for chloroplasts. For those of you who've forgotten your
cellular biology, mitochondria and chloroplasts are both organelles within
cells.
> >Mitochondria are the powerhouses of the cell - where a lot of energy
conversion goes on. Chloroplasts, only found in plant cells, are where the
chlorophyll
> >is and where conversion of light to chemical energy storage takes place.
These organelles, in many ways, are the foundations that all life is built
on (other
> >than bacteria and viruses).
>
> Lars, bacteria have neither mitochondria nor chloroplasts. You will find
mitochondria in yeast and chloroplasts only in plants, not even in
photosynthetic bacteria. You are mixing up your science a little bit here.
No, i'm not mixing up my science. I never said bacteria have
mitochondria or chloroplasts. You are, once again, misreading what i wrote,
probably because you are not reading the whole thing before replying.
If you read later on in the same paragraph, you will see that i
state: "...so that now virtually _every_ eukaryotic, plant and animal cell
on planet earth contains mitochondria"
I was bringing up the subject of mitochondrial DNA because that is
the work that Lynn Margulis is most famous for. I was sure, at the time,
that you would have heard of her in this context, as it was her theory. It
is still extremely hard for me to understand that you have never heard of her.
lf
> >are probably bacterial in origin as well (cilia and flagella, for
example). Her theories are showing us that much of evolution is cooperation,
not only
> >competition, as we are so commonly taught.
>
> Well, I certainly do not agree with that old theory. Remember, the most
dangerous microorganisms have NO mitochondria, and these are the bacteria.
Once again, this is a new theory, which is very accepted by _every_
scientist in any biology-related I've ever talked to on the subject.
lf
> A lot of my school and university theories have changed and are not valid
anymore. You have to look at more modern books in microbiology and genetical
engineering.
I think _you_ have to look in more recent books on evolutionary theory.
lf
> I am sorry, but I totally disagree with Lynn Margulis theory, which may
have been ok in the 50s, but not anymore with our present knowledge. That is
my opinion. Others may think otherwise.
Lynn Margulis got her undergraduate degree in '57. DNA's structure was just
recently unravelled in the 50's. These theories are much more recent than that.
lf
_______________________________________________________
Which brings us back to the start of this discussion. And how this
all relates to aquaponics.
I believe that, like any organism bred in captivity, bacteria
populations need fresh 'innoculations' of wild strains in order to keep the
'gene stock' healthy. Acquiring samples from outside - from the larger world
- keeps the biodiversity level of your bacteria high, which makes your
system more resilient to stresses and changes, and increases
the potential biodiversity of the macro-organsims that depend on them. This
should be done especially when you start a new system, and then on a regular
basis during the life of the system.
This may not be very important for those who are doing
tilapia/tomatos or some other simple systems with few species, but i think
it is critical for multi-species systems, especially if they are handling
greywater or other complex chemical 'soups'.
Partial seperation of a system from the outside world is one of the
main goals of all aquaponics - maintaining different temperatures through
the use of greenhouses, internal recirculation and processing of wastes to
avoid polluting the 'outside', control of reproduction, selection of
species, forced seperation of predator and prey, etc.
However, aquaponics are artifically small biosystems with various unusual
conditions and stresses. Using bacterial diversity to help maintain
biological stability under these conditions is vital. I think John Todd has
said as much when referring to his Living Machines (TM).
Too little exposure to the outside world could mean that your system
would become 'soft' and homogenized, like overly hybridized wheat, - prone
to problems which require intense mechanical intervention and high energy
inputs to remedy. Trying to maintain an hermetic seal around a biosystem (or
any system) is probably ill-advised.
And Lastly, an aquaponic system can be an incredibly dense network
of symbiotic relationships, with the human(s) as one of it's participants. I
think it is very important to keep this in mind when designing systems.
Living systems should provide the model for aquaponic systems, and symbiosis
plays a key, though often underplayed, role in the
natural world.
Lars Fields
good-for-nothing nobody
without any initials
of any importance
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: "Sam Levy"
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:49:45 PST
Jorg,
You might want to look at Boyd's "Water Quality in Ponds for
Aquaculture" (Claude E. Boyd, published by Alabama Agricultural
Experiment Station, Auburn University, Auburn University, Alabama 36849,
(1990)). Although a book described well by its title, there is a
chapter devoted to soils and a lot of discussion on soil-mud-water
interactions. You also might want to check the publications of the
Regional Aquaculture Centers at:
http://www.msstate.edu/dept/srac/theracs.htm
both Southern and Northeastern have fact sheets on pond construction.
You also should check on seepage into the groundwater--you might have to
excavate a bit deeper, lay down a liner, and replace 20 - 40 cm of soil
on top of the liner if there is some concern in this area.
sam
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: jilli and lars
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:48:56 -0800
wow -
this sounds great.
jorg, i hope you try this, and please keep me informed as to how well
it works.
thanks bill,
lars
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| Message 6 |
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: jilli and lars
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:58:55 -0800
hi jorg -
I've heard about a clay (bentonite? I can't remember) that
expands when it is wet, thereby sealing against water quite well. Its
been used to waterproof underground houses. I think its even available in
sheets which appeared to be similar to sheets of sheetrock in pictures,
though i've never seen it for real. You lay it down in a couple of layers
and wet and thats it. It is 'natural', though i don't know to what degree
its been processed, but i probably not very much. I saw it on a site
about pond building and aquaculture, but lost the URL.
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: jilli and lars
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:20:11 -0800
Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote:. Wonderful to hear those frogs shattering the anonymous
lives of silent houses.
encore encore!
great stuff jorg, keep it coming!
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 06:21:25 EST
beaver.
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: bacteria and genetic exchange...
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:01:28 EST
This is Fantasmagoric,i just love my list server! That'sll I need, my list
server and my coffee,that's all i need. This is something i can tell my grand
kids about,how i witnessed an experiment right here on my computer. Two
unicellular creatures,in two different parts of the world,trying to alter the
other ones genetic make up. About how it how it took good bacteria ( Sharing
of Knowledge) and mutated it and changed it into dangerous bacteria ( Pride ).
I can tell them I learned how to ( Jeanetically ) coat concrete, how to build
a pond using bacon,how to build a heat exchanger just by disagreeing with
theories, how to line a pond with big words,how to build a vertical generator
that could double as a helicopter! Ain't life good! Well I gotta go now and
fix Breakfast ( Ricearoni and Limey beans. So long from here on Gilligans
Isle.
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:21:23 -0700 (MST)
You said:" I saw it on a site about pond building and aquaculture, but lost
the URL"
__________________________________________________________________________
Lars: Thanks for your bentonite suggestion. If you find the URL, please
let me know. I will try to avoid importation of products foreign to the
site for now. I like the layering of grass clippings, cardboard, etc
suggested by Bill Evans. I will have to get more information on that
method. I think straw also really helps. Has anyone seen any detailed
articles or instructions on the Guey method? Jorg Ostrowski
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:27:46 -0700 (MST)
You said:"You also should check on seepage into the groundwater--you might
have to excavate a bit deeper, lay down a liner, and replace 20 - 40 cm of
soil on top of the liner if there is some concern in this area.
___________________________________________________________________________
Sam: Thanks for your references, which I will check out when I have
time.If I go more than 2 feet down, it will be classified as a swimming
pool and requires a lifeguard, according to the bylaws. So I am restricted
to a shallow pond for now. Jorg ostrowski
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:43:57 -0700 (MST)
You said:
"Pigs.
Seriously, I've used hogs to seal two dry ponds. If there is the slightest
puddle, they'll wallow in it and enlarge it to whatever size the site will
permit. For small ponds you might consider pot-belly pigs which are much
smaller."
_________________________________________________________________________
Gordon: Thanks for your funny but realistic suggestion, that I have also
previously heard. Pot-belly pigs could be classified as pets. I think I
will hire, rent or adopt some form of pig for my pond wallowing. It may
save me some labour. They may even enjoy reading Bill Evans newspapers
while basking in the sun? Thanks for the good news. Jorg ostrowski
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:16:57 -0700 (MST)
You said:"corn meal, pond scum, possum grits, moss, swamp goobers,"
_________________________________________________________________________
Ted: Thanks for your funny but practical receipe. What kind of vernacular
is the above? What is the difference between pond scum and swamp goobers?
Are these samples from local swamps? What are possum grits? Sounds like
converted food from furry little animals? Did you consult your kids on this?
Is the corn meal there for the first occupants? Is the moss the first native
vegetation to be planted or does it serve as reinforcement for this pond
paste that you described? Thanks for your natural concoction. I hope that
I will survive. Sorry for all the silly questions. Jorg ostrowski
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:20:43 -0700 (MST)
Bill: Thanks for your useful instructions. With all the information
received I could make this a community event or make a spectacle of
myself. What is the purpose of the newspapers? Thanks for your helpful
instructions. The kids will just love this. Jorg Ostrowski
_____________________________________________________________________
You said:
"to build w/o a liner???? then need clay on top of gley. this is
waterproof. gley is organic matter like grass clippings/leaves that
has been layered thickly over the bottom of the hole that is to be a
pond.This should be anerobic, really wet and packed.On top of this add
your clay and bottom soils/sands.You could use cardboard /newspapers for
the bottom layer below the grass clippings."
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| Message 15 |
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:40:58 -0500
Jorg,
There is a newsgroup called rec.pond which has a very active
group of participants. You might want to check them out.
Adriana
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Subject: Re: good bacteria
From: "brett deiser"
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:55:28 PST
>
>You said:"These are good bacteria that break down organic matter and
>transform ammonia to nitrate."
>___________________________________________________________________
>Jim: Would this good bacteria be useful in our (and Lars'system?)
>greywater treatment system to help breakdown organic matter and
>perhaps even reduce or eliminate any hydrogen sulfide (H2S)? Thanks
>for your short response.
>Jorg Ostrowski
>____________________________________________________________________
These bacteria are there if your system is aerobic.
Keep your nose to the grindstone, Your eye on the ball, and Your
ear to the ground, and try to work in that position!!
Brett:-}
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Subject: Evolution of Mitochondria and chloroplasts
From: wwarren
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:02:15 -0500
>I have never ever heard of Lynn Margulis and I am certainly moving in a lot
of microbiology
>cycles as a specialist microbiologist. I am not aware where and when she
was celebrated.
She's a very well known microbiologist. Very active and current.
>> Additionally, sometime in the 60's, I believe, it was discovered
that mitochondria have
>>their own genetic material. Soon after, the same thing was
>>found to be true for chloroplasts. For those of you who've forgotten your
cellular biology,
>>mitochondria and chloroplasts are both organelles within cells.
>>Mitochondria are the powerhouses of the cell - where a lot of energy
conversion goes on.
>>Chloroplasts, only found in plant cells, are where the chlorophyll
>>is and where conversion of light to chemical energy storage takes place.
These organelles, in
>>many ways, are the foundations that all life is built on (other
>>than bacteria and viruses).
>Lars, bacteria have neither mitochondria nor chloroplasts. You will find
mitochondria in yeast
>and chloroplasts only in plants, not even in photosynthetic bacteria. You
are mixing up your
>science a little bit here.
You seem to be mixing up what Lars said. He never said bacteria have
organelles.
>> From the fact that these organelles have their own gentic material,
Lynn Margulis
>>formulated the, now very widely accepted, theory that both of
>>these organelles were actually bacterial in origin, evolutionarily
speaking, that is.
>This has been disproven in the 60s, as a German Professor in wine industry
also thought that
>mitochondria had been genetic material.
Both chloroplasts and mitochondria are very unusual organelles and, in
many respects, resemble prokaryotes more than they resemble the other
organelles of the eukaryotic cells:
Both chloroplasts and mitochondria have a single, circular chromosome
composed of DNA without any proteins, as do the prokaryotes.
Both chloroplasts and mitochondria contain their own ribosomes and
synthesize proteins. The ribosomes are more similar to prokaryotic
ribosomes than to eukaryotic ribosomes.
Both chloroplasts and mitochondria can grow, duplicate their DNA and
reproduce.
Both chloroplasts and mitochondria apparently cannot be manufactured by
the cell.
Both chloroplasts and mitochondria are surrounded by two separate
membranes, whereas most other organelles are bounded by one.
The inner membrane of a mitochondrion, the thylakoid membranes of a
chloroplast, and the plasma membrane of a prokaryotic cell are all about
75 percent protein and can carry out ATP synthesis. Eukaryotic
membranes are about 50 percent protein and play no role in ATP
synthesis.
Why do both chloroplasts and mitochondria resemble prokaryotes so
strongly? The endosymbiotic hypothesis states that, essentially,
free-living bacteria became organelles in eukaryotic cells. Most
biologists agree that both chloroplasts and mitochondria are, in
essence, foreign creatures within eukaryotic cells.
>Well, I certainly do not agree with that old theory. Remember, the most
dangerous microorganisms >have NO mitochondria, and these are the bacteria.
Huh?
>A lot of my school and university theories have changed and are not valid
anymore. You have to
>look at more modern books in microbiology and genetical engineering.
And so do you.
>I am sorry, but I totally disagree with Lynn Margulis theory, which may
have been ok in the 50s, >but not anymore with our present knowledge. That
is my opinion. Others may think otherwise.
Lynn was a teenager in the 50s.
I have to run, have a class to teach (with new material)!
Will
Check out the biobarge!
http://www.shore.net/~wbw
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| Message 18 |
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Subject: Re: Evolution of Mitochondria and chloroplasts
From: "Vaughan Davidson, CPA"
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:46:15 -0500
hi - i am amazed that margulis is not known to a specialist microbiologist
- it is like a theoretical physicist not to be familiar with quantum theory
- would suggest you read "microcosmos" by margulis and sagan -
vaughan
vaughan davidson, cpa
35 legare
charleston, sc 29401
843.577.9443
vaughan@awod.com
----------
From: wwarren
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Subject: Evolution of Mitochondria and chloroplasts
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 11:02 AM
>I have never ever heard of Lynn Margulis and I am certainly moving in a
lot of microbiology
>cycles as a specialist microbiologist. I am not aware where and when she
was celebrated.
She's a very well known microbiologist. Very active and current.
>> Additionally, sometime in the 60's, I believe, it was discovered
that mitochondria have
>>their own genetic material. Soon after, the same thing was
>>found to be true for chloroplasts. For those of you who've forgotten your
cellular biology,
>>mitochondria and chloroplasts are both organelles within cells.
>>Mitochondria are the powerhouses of the cell - where a lot of energy
conversion goes on.
>>Chloroplasts, only found in plant cells, are where the chlorophyll
>>is and where conversion of light to chemical energy storage takes place.
These organelles, in
>>many ways, are the foundations that all life is built on (other
>>than bacteria and viruses).
>Lars, bacteria have neither mitochondria nor chloroplasts. You will find
mitochondria in yeast
>and chloroplasts only in plants, not even in photosynthetic bacteria. You
are mixing up your
>science a little bit here.
You seem to be mixing up what Lars said. He never said bacteria have
organelles.
>> From the fact that these organelles have their own gentic
material, Lynn Margulis
>>formulated the, now very widely accepted, theory that both of
>>these organelles were actually bacterial in origin, evolutionarily
speaking, that is.
>This has been disproven in the 60s, as a German Professor in wine industry
also thought that
>mitochondria had been genetic material.
Both chloroplasts and mitochondria are very unusual organelles and, in
many respects, resemble prokaryotes more than they resemble the other
organelles of the eukaryotic cells:
Both chloroplasts and mitochondria have a single, circular chromosome
composed of DNA without any proteins, as do the prokaryotes.
Both chloroplasts and mitochondria contain their own ribosomes and
synthesize proteins. The ribosomes are more similar to prokaryotic
ribosomes than to eukaryotic ribosomes.
Both chloroplasts and mitochondria can grow, duplicate their DNA and
reproduce.
Both chloroplasts and mitochondria apparently cannot be manufactured by
the cell.
Both chloroplasts and mitochondria are surrounded by two separate
membranes, whereas most other organelles are bounded by one.
The inner membrane of a mitochondrion, the thylakoid membranes of a
chloroplast, and the plasma membrane of a prokaryotic cell are all about
75 percent protein and can carry out ATP synthesis. Eukaryotic
membranes are about 50 percent protein and play no role in ATP
synthesis.
Why do both chloroplasts and mitochondria resemble prokaryotes so
strongly? The endosymbiotic hypothesis states that, essentially,
free-living bacteria became organelles in eukaryotic cells. Most
biologists agree that both chloroplasts and mitochondria are, in
essence, foreign creatures within eukaryotic cells.
>Well, I certainly do not agree with that old theory. Remember, the most
dangerous microorganisms >have NO mitochondria, and these are the bacteria.
Huh?
>A lot of my school and university theories have changed and are not valid
anymore. You have to
>look at more modern books in microbiology and genetical engineering.
And so do you.
>I am sorry, but I totally disagree with Lynn Margulis theory, which may
have been ok in the 50s, >but not anymore with our present knowledge. That
is my opinion. Others may think otherwise.
Lynn was a teenager in the 50s.
I have to run, have a class to teach (with new material)!
Will
Check out the biobarge!
http://www.shore.net/~wbw
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| Message 19 |
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:16:37 EST
Hey Jorg,O.K. here we go,you mix the corn meal and the pond scum together to
feed the possom,so he won't eat the duck,swamp goobers are what the pigs leave
behind and the newspaper is so you can look in the classified's and find
somebody with a backhoe to dig the hole,and the moss is to hide the poly
liners edge so's it'll look natural.Boy! I can tell you never lived in Jawga.
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| Message 20 |
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Subject: Re: tank paint
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:23:51, -0500
You better trust Lars on that address. I just read the can but I'm
good at erroneous duplication.
I'm too lazy to run back out in the rain to the GH to get the can
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| Message 21 |
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: PHRL33A@prodigy.com (MS JEAN R SHAFFER)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:29:21, -0500
Watch out for the oinkers getting loose. In my neck of the woods,
the wildlife department shutters at the thought of escaped pigs. They
multiply and their rooting and wallowing behaviors ruin wildlife
habitat in no time.
Jean
Western Washington
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| Message 22 |
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Subject: Re: Evolution of Mitochondria and chloroplasts
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:35:06 -0600
Will,
Thank you for your refreshingly cogent contribution to our discussions of
cell biology. Mitochondira and chloroplasts, found only in eukaryotes,
indeed have many structural and genetic similarities to free living
prokaryotes. The speculation that these particular eukaryotic organelles
may have originated as symbiotic or parasitic intracellular prokaryotes has
been around for about 2 or 3 decades now. Lynn M. and others have made some
very articulate arguments in favor of their hypothesis.. It is interesting
to contemplate these things. Please do join us more often!
Ted.
"The water won't clear up until you take the pigs out of the creek"
- Texan Proverb.
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| Message 23 |
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Subject: Only 2 things that $ can't buy
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:46:29 -0600
This just in:
> * Health effects of tomatoes got a major boost from an article in the
> Feb. 17 issue of Journal of the Nat'l. Cancer Institute. The article
cites
> numerous studies that reported a consistently lower risk of different
> types of cancer associated with increased consumption of tomatoes and
> tomato-based products.
> http://www.oup.co.uk/jnci/hdb/Volume_91/Issue_04/910317.sgm.abs.
> html
Yeah, buddy.
One of my favorite songs by Guy Clark is "Homegrown Tomatoes".
"There's only 2 things that money cain't buy, and that's True Love and Home
Grown Tomatoes"
- Guy Clark.
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| Message 24 |
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Subject: Re: natural pond building
From: "brett deiser"
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:54:51 PST
>Watch out for the oinkers getting loose. In my neck of the woods,
>the wildlife department shutters at the thought of escaped pigs. >They
multiply and their rooting and wallowing behaviors ruin >wildlife
habitat in no time.
In Ohio there is no closed season, or limit on wild pig
excluding deer season for this reason.
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| Message 25 |
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Subject: Re: bacteria and genetic exchange...
From: doelle
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:39:50 +1100
Lars, why do you block my mailbox with writing twice the same letter. I have
answered your letter on private mail. Now I have to repeat again, WHY ?
As I said, you appear to misread my lines as much as you accuse me of
misreading your lines.
All I will say here is, that I try to answer modern microbiology. I always
thought that this discussion group is an open forum where we all learn from
each other. We are in a democratic society and if some people do not like
the answer, one does not have to get personal and abusing. Im stick to my
answer AND apologies if I have hurt your old wisdom. It seems we are at a
similar age and should be friendlier to each other.
I will not comment on your microbiology again as you appear not to like
different views.
Sorry of having tried to update your knowledge.
Best of luck in your work
Horst Doelle
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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| Message 26 |
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Subject: Re: bacteria and genetic exchange...
From: doelle
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:50:19 +1100
Congratulation, I simply enjoyed your comments and like to congratulate you
on the magnificent resume.
Horst
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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| Message 27 |
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Subject: Re: Only 2 things that $ can't buy
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:32:35 EST
Hey Ted,you wrote on the effects of eating tomato's on cancer. It's the
Carotiene that does it,isnt it?
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| Message 28 |
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Subject: Re: Paint info received
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:29:17 EST
Hi Glennert,you're welcome on the paint information,what are the dimensions of
your tank,as far as going by Tom & Paula's set up, I'm going with their
system design also,they've got the construction part down to an art form,I've
got the fish tanks in,and I'm building the growing beds now,looking forward to
cranking it up. Keep me updated on your project. Ken
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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