Aquaponics Digest - Thu 03/04/99
Message 1: Re: iodine to kill pathogens/safe for plants & fish?
from doelle
Message 2: Re: Mushrooms in the Greenhouse (like everyone else?)
from Hydro/Aquatic Tech
Message 3: Re: Mushrooms in the Greenhouse
from David Inselman
Message 4: Requests for information offered on list
from "Lyons, Mark A"
Message 5: Re: iodine to kill pathogens/safe for plants & fish?
from "Ted Ground"
Message 6: Re: Mushrooms in the Greenhouse
from "tess"
Message 7: Re: Requests for information offered on list
from "tess"
Message 8: Re: Requests for information offered on list
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 9: Re: Shitake mushroom
from Whichwind
Message 10: RV: Anaerobic root zones
from Alejandro Gallardo Valencia
Message 11: RE: Requests for information offered on list
from Jennifer Grunest
Message 12: Re: Requests for information offered on list
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 13: Re: Anaerobic root zones
from "Ted Ground"
Message 14: Re: iodine to kill pathogens/safe for plants & fish?
from "Ted Ground"
Message 15: My experiment so far
from "Ronald W. Brooks"
Message 16: RE: Mushrooms in the Greenhouse
from "Couvia, Susan"
Message 17: Re: Mushrooms in the Greenhouse
from "Ted Ground"
Message 18: Re: Copies of Doccos
from "Ted Ground"
Message 19: DC Power
from "Robin Jenkins"
Message 20: Re:unsubscribe
from Jim allread
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: iodine to kill pathogens/safe for plants & fish?
From: doelle
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 22:15:32 +1100
Ted, I fully agree with your explanations and recommendations. Unfortunately
there are companies around the globe who try to sell a bacterial concoction
under the umbrella of solving all your waste or pathogen problems. Most of
the ones I came in contact with, did not solve the problem. One has to
explore the cause of the evil and defeat it with simple methods, if possible.
Best regards
Horst
At 09:33 AM 02/03/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Jorg,
>
>Your system is going anaerobic because of the relative amounts of
>decomposing organic material, the bacterial population, and the available
>oxygen. Under such anaerobic conditions, a anoxic "reducing" environment
>develops, in which most of the materials are in a reduced state, as opposed
>to an oxidizing environment, in which organic materials can be readily
>oxidized. Sterilization of the material does not ensure that hydrogen
>sulfide will not be generated. The terms biochemical oxygen demand (BOD),
>and chemical oxygen demand (COD) are related but they are not identical.
>BOD refers to the sum total of biological respiration, biochemical
>oxidation, and chemical oxidation which can consume a given amount of
>oxygen in a solution or suspension of a sample of the the materials in
>question- in this case, your graywater going into your system. COD refers
>to just the chemical oxidation processes that would take place from that
>material.
>
>Anaerobic decomposition of materials are certainly enhanced and mediated by
>bacteria, but it is possible for sulfur containing materials to decompose
>into hydrogen sulfide in a chemically reducing environment, without the aid
>of such microorganisms. In nature, there are always microorganisms present
>to catalyst or mediate these reactions, so it is nearly impossible to find
>an environment in which our good buddies, the bacteria, are not performing
>their functions in decomposition, H2S generation, or what have you.
>Nevertheless, COD still has it's role in the big picture, if you see what I
>mean.
>
>In my opinion, the key to avoiding anoxic conditions in your graywater
>system, and thus avoiding hydrogen sulfide generation, is not to killing
>the bacteria or replacing one bacterial community with another, but to
>provide more oxygen to elevate the oxidation/reduction potential (ORP) such
>that you have oxidizing conditions in the water or the slurry, or what have
>you...The bacterial community that will eventually establish itself will
>take place on it's own for the most part, and you should not have to worry
>about killing some or bringing in others, I should think. In wastewater
>treatment plants, much of the BOD from the influent is "removed", that is,
>the solids are oxidized at the plant before they reach the point of
>discharge, by a process of intensive aeration of waste activated sludge,
>where the solids, the bacterial biomass, water and air are vigorously
>agitated mechanically and constantly aerated.
>
>Perhaps a trickle filter over a packed column of rocks, or a simple
>airstone manifold connected to a blower, or some kind of cascading steam or
>similar recirculating system that brings the liquid into maximum contact
>with the air will help break the organic matter down at such a rate that
>you always have moderate to high levels of dissolved oxygen in your system?
>
>Just a suggestion, since I don't know all the details about your system.
>
>Good Luck.
>
>Ted.
>
>
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: Mushrooms in the Greenhouse (like everyone else?)
From: Hydro/Aquatic Tech
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 07:02:40 -0500
Susan,
Like nearly everyone else here, I'd like a copy of the info on the
mushrooms. Rather than cc all of us, perhaps you want to post it as a
web page and then let us know the URL.
Scott Jones
Hydro/Aquatic Tech
aqua@hatech.com
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: Mushrooms in the Greenhouse
From: David Inselman
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 07:30:44 -0600
Susan, I too would appreciate a copy of your file. Thank you, Dave
trdrdave@poncacity.net
"Couvia, Susan" wrote:
> . I have a file that I wrote detailing every
> step in growing shiitake on wood that I can send you if you'd like.
>
> Susan
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Subject: Requests for information offered on list
From: "Lyons, Mark A"
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 05:26:10 -0800
Hello everyone. Would you please keep all of the requests for any kind of
material between you and the person offering? We don't all need to know if
you want it or not. It is a simple matter to cut and paste the person's
e-mail address in the subject box of a forward, rather than just "replying
to" the message.
Thank you.
Mark
mark.lyons@pss.boeing.com
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: Re: iodine to kill pathogens/safe for plants & fish?
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:38:46 -0600
> From: doelle
> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
> Subject: Re: iodine to kill pathogens/safe for plants & fish?
> Date: Thursday, March 04, 1999 5:15 AM
>
> Ted, I fully agree with your explanations and recommendations.
Unfortunately there are companies around the globe who try to sell a
bacterial concoction under the umbrella of solving all your waste or
pathogen problems. Most of the ones I came in contact with, did not solve
the problem. One has to explore the cause of the evil and defeat it with
simple methods, if possible.
>
> Best regards
>
> Horst
I agree that many of the commercial bacteria products being pushed these
days may be the latest in the arsenal of the snake oil salemen of the
world. I also agree we should follow Thoreau's advice to "Simplify,
simplify".....
I have seen some sludge digesting products work, but I often wonder if it
is worth the money to buy bacteria, compared with operating a system in
such a way that is based on a balanced consideration of the design of
materials, equipment, the amount and rate of "organic feedstock" and oxygen
going in, waste coming out, and just letting volunteer bugs do their
job...Even Mr. Rogers knows that he shouldnt overfeed the fish in his
neighborhood.
Cheers
Ted
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Subject: Re: Mushrooms in the Greenhouse
From: "tess"
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:14:43 -0700
Susan, I would also like a copy of your file. Can I send an SAEnvelope or
will you send it E-mail. Thanks for sharing. Us-uns in the little small
towns can't get much help except for the internet which has been fantastic.
Tess
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: Requests for information offered on list
From: "tess"
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:16:59 -0700
I think you are wrong. I learn more from other peoples requests than my
own. It is like a classroom situation. I learn more from the other
questions than my own as I don't know what to ask. Thanks Tess
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: Requests for information offered on list
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:55:29 EST
This is true Mark,but at the same time,it shows how much interest is
generated,and leads to some very interesting information sharing. I say let it
Mushroom! Spores Galore. But I'm easy, I'll let Susan know off list,that I'd
like one too. Thanks, Ken
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: Shitake mushroom
From: Whichwind
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:02:22 EST
In a message dated 3/3/99 10:42:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, jparkey@pldi.net
writes:
<< Hi Susan,
Please forward a copy of your shitake mushroom file.
Thanks
Paul
jparkey@pdli.net >>
Dear Susan,
I would like a copy as well.
Thank you.
Cheryl
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Subject: RV: Anaerobic root zones
From: Alejandro Gallardo Valencia
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:13:44 -0600
Mauricio:
Water from your fish tanks should always go through a settling tank, =
for suspended particles are not desirable in this case. The sludge =
obtained in this process can be utilized as well, after a simple waste =
water treatment or composting.
If you want, contact me by private e-mail to set a "meeting" on the =
Chat at the page of the Mexican Oceanographer's Asociation, Mexico City =
Delegation, wich I preside, at =
http://members.tripod.com/AJGV/asocean.html . This invitation is for all =
of you guys too, sorry, though, for the moment the page is in Spanish =
only (haven't had much time to do the English version).
Best regards.
Alejandro Gallardo.
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: RE: Requests for information offered on list
From: Jennifer Grunest
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:35:14 -0800
I agree with Tess. I haven't posted a single question because I'm just
getting started and don't know what to ask, but I've learned a lot from
other peoples questions and dialogue.
Thanks to everyone!
Jennifer
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: Re: Requests for information offered on list
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:56:40 -0500
Tess and Jennifer,
I think you misunderstood Mark's post. What he meant is that
when you request that a COPY of something be SENT to you the rest
of us don't need to know it. In the past two days there have
been 10 public requests for mushroom info to be sent to people
directly which have added nothing to the actual discussion
on-line. This request can be made privately through
correspondence with the sender as it doesn't involve anybody but
the two of you.
If you want information on a subject TO BE POSTED ON-LINE for
discussion and comment by the group, then the forum is the
absolute correct place for it.
Some people, believe it or not still pay for their on-line usage
by time or use their systems at work. To the extent that the
mail-groups can be uncluttered by keeping this type of request
off the server and by CUTTING OUT ALL BUT A MINIMUM PART OF THE
QUESTION YOU ARE REPLYING TO it will help everybody.
Adriana
> I agree with Tess. I haven't posted a single question because I'm just
> getting started and don't know what to ask, but I've learned a lot from
> other peoples questions and dialogue.
>
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| Message 13 |
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Subject: Re: Anaerobic root zones
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:02:56 -0600
> Mauricio:
>
> Water from your fish tanks should always go through a settling tank, for
suspended particles are not desirable in this case. The sludge obtained
in this process can be utilized as well, after a simple waste water
treatment or composting.
>
> If you want, contact me by private e-mail to set a "meeting" on the Chat
at the page of the Mexican Oceanographer's Asociation, Mexico City
Delegation, wich I preside, at http://members.tripod.com/AJGV/asocean.html
. This invitation is for all of you guys too, sorry, though, for the moment
the page is in Spanish only (haven't had much time to do the English
version).
>
> Best regards.
>
> Alejandro Gallardo.
>
A clarifier or settling basin is one approach, but it is not always
necessary.
The anaerobic root problem for the gentleman who posed the question is
related to the nature of NFT troughs wherein bare roots are exposed to the
stream of aquaponics water, either continuously or episodically. Under
these circumstances, suspended solids reduction will help, as you mentioned
Alejandro. I offered my opinions on the NFT continuous stream versus ebb
and flow pros and cons several months back.
If plants roots are growing in gravel, with adequate pore space between
gravel grains, and you have periodic or ebb and flow irrigation, the sludge
problems mentioned do not necessarily develop, or at least they are
reduced, in my opinion. The particulate matter can be dispersed over a
larger surface area, the bacterial biofilm which captures the particulate
matter has more exposure to air, and the surging action can break up
stagnant zones. Sludge problems and anaerobic root zones sometimes take
place in gravel (or perlite) ebb and flow systems, but I think they are
less frequent or less extensive.
Just my opinion.
Ted.
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| Message 14 |
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Subject: Re: iodine to kill pathogens/safe for plants & fish?
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:14:42 -0600
----------
> From: Jorg D. Ostrowski
> To: Ted Ground
> Subject: Re: iodine to kill pathogens/safe for plants & fish?
> Date: Thursday, March 04, 1999 7:52 AM
>
>
> Ted: Thanks for your response. What "sludge digesting products" did work
> and would they be relevant to a small in-house greywater recirculation
> system? I would prefer to solve the H2S problem without mechanical
> equipment, if possible. Jorg Ostrowski
>
There are a number of sludge digestion bacterial products out there Jorg,
such as EnviroReps, Septic Tank products you can buy at the hardware store,
and many others, but I would still encourage you to do something to bring
more oxygen into the system with algae or other photosynthesizing plants
such as submerged macrophytes or something like that.
Just adding bacteria probably won't overcome your anoxic (low oxygen)
problems. If you think of your system as a biological carburetor, then you
probably have too much fuel (organic matter) to air ratio, if you see what
I mean.
With enough light to run photosynthesis, and the right shape or morphometry
of your system (such as shallow water depth exposed to bright light, or
even a thin film of water running over the top of a slab of attached green
filamentous algae), and possibly dilution of your organic matter per unit
time with fresh water, (perhaps captured rain water or shower water?) you
might be able to increase your oxygen to organic carbon ratio. Think about
this as a project in "aquatic" composting. Sure you need lots of good
bacteria, but you also need the right ratio of air to fuel.
Hope this helps, since it is so abstract, and probably doesnt address your
specific set up.
Ted.
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Subject: My experiment so far
From: "Ronald W. Brooks"
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:45:42 -0500
On Feb. 10th I received 29 mixed sex Nile Tilapia with a weight of 116
grams.
I placed them in a 180 Gallon stock tank with a 80 gallon cascade system.
Temp is kept at 78 degrees and D.O. is 9.0 due to the cascade (4.5 before
cascade installed) I fed the fish all that they could eat 3 times daily with
a supplement at the evening feeding of frozen brine shrimp
Total feed so far fed out
Pellets ( 35% protein ) 131 grams
Brine shrimp 188 grams
weight of fish on 3/3/99 319 grams ( average weight of 11 grams each , from
weighed sample )
Net gain of fish weight 203 grams
Ron
The One Who Walks Two Paths
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Subject: RE: Mushrooms in the Greenhouse
From: "Couvia, Susan"
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:35:35 -0700
Ted asked...
Wow. Susan, did you ever just get popular.
Yup Well, everyone gets their 10 minutes of fame sometime, guess this
was mine!
My friend had problems with Trichoderma mold (a forest green mold)
in his
oyster mushroom system. He did pastuerize the straw adequately (I
think),
bagged it up with the slits for the fruiting bodies, etc., but he
claimed
that particular mold was a consistent problem. What can you tell me
about
controlling that kind of mold? Better sterilization of the straw? I
really
think I don't want to go great lengths in terms of labor and
fretting over
the mushroom culture once I have transferred the grain inoculum to
the wood
or straw or compost substrate that would go to fruit inside the
greenhouse.
The thing you want to do is mimic nature as closely as you can. Nature
doesn't use plastic bags with slits. Not even close. I have had much better
results with an open bed construction - basically you make something that
resembles a raised bed for the garden. Put your pasturized straw in this
bed, inoculate with your spawn, then cover the top with about two inches of
perlite. Since the top portion is a non-nutritional substrate, the mycelia
does not grow through it, and neither does the dreaded mold. When the
mushrooms begin fruiting, it is easy for it to push through this layer.
Keeping the perlite moist (not wet) helps control the moisture throughout
the growing bed too.
The other question I have is about Chantrelles. They look
beautiful. I
have never tasted them. Would they be a good candidate for the
greenhouse?
Chantrelles are wonderfully delicious, but unfortunately noone has managed
to grow them indoors yet. I believe they're one of the mushrooms that have a
symbiotic relationship with various tree roots. That's hard to duplicate in
a greenhouse.
I've also heard a rumor that there is a giant Shitake variety. Is
that
right?
One of our local grocery store has started carrying some rather large (about
twice normal size) shiitake. I'm planning (in my copious spare time!) to
just buy a few, do a spore print and try this strain out.
Susan
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| Message 17 |
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Subject: Re: Mushrooms in the Greenhouse
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:06:18 -0600
After all this talk about mushrooms, the Muse, that Incessant Internet
Trickster, decided to rear his ugly head. He sent this choice gem for your
consideration.
"When growing Giant Shitake in the greenhouse,
Avoid trouble
By growing them near
The end of the greenhouse
With the evaporative cooler.
Otherwise, the Shitake will hit the fan"
-The Muse.
Hey, Muse...don't quit your day job. Or get a day job, as the case may be.
Ted.
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Subject: Re: Copies of Doccos
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:49:56 -0600
Michael,
I briefly checked out your website. I give it the Big Thumbs Up.
I hereby officially exhort you to keep on keeping on and to NEVER give up.
I hereby encourage you to keep on pushing hard at the edge of the frontier.
All of us can be inspired by pop bottles and tubing because it leads us
into expansive dreams and realities...Saturn V rockets, space stations,
lunar colonies graced by aquaponic greenhouses, green summers in Cydonia,
and beyond.
"Take us out of orbit..let's see what's out there, Mr. Strates..."
Make it so
Capt. Ground
Earl Gray, hot
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Subject: DC Power
From: "Robin Jenkins"
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 18:04:25 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: jilli and lars
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: Garden wall, peatcrete, bentonite and thorite
>hi robin -
>
>my comments inserted below -
>
> DC power- is this solar? I've only been working with solar
>powered pumps for a short while, but I can recommend them for
>hydroponic/aquaponics. They are highly suitable for such purposes as
>they are automatically variable depending on the amount of sun - which
>is exactly when plants need it. It really animates a system, binds it to
>daily cycles and weather systems, and ties it to natural rhythms. Have
>you noticed the same thing? Its probably one of the most appropriate
>uses of photovoltaics yet. No battery storage or inverters necessary,
>just a PV panel and a DC pump. Very simple and elegant.
Lars and Adriana, as yet my power system is not solar generated DC. I
agree with Lars 100% that dedicated PV operated pumps are quite elegant.
What an interesting observation that it ties the system to more natural
rhythms of the sun and weather! Using resources at hand I have constructed
a gasoline generator with a gasoline motor and an automotive alternator.
This generates DC electricity. If you generate, store, and utilize all
your power in DC, the amp.hour/gal.gasoline is nearly twice as efficient as
generating AC, rectifying to DC for storage, then invering BACK to AC to
run your devices, pumps, lights, etc. No inverters and all that stuff
if your totally DC. I plan to add the PV panel later and only use the
generator as backup.
The January issue (#68) of Homepower magazine has an article on the Genny DC
generator that is built the way I described. Their home page is
http://www.homepower.com .
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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