Aquaponics Digest - Tue 03/09/99




Message   1: Re: NFT Troughs

             from jilli and lars 

Message   2: Re: Farm Search

             from Dave Miller 

Message   3: Re: NFT lettuce in prison

             from Dave Miller 

Message   4: Re: Tank sources

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message   5: Re: NFT Troughs

             from "W.Warren" 

Message   6: Re: NFT Troughs

             from Adriana Gutierrez 

Message   7: Re: Tank sources

             from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message   8: RE: Tank sources

             from "MacQuarrie, Carla" 

Message   9: Re: Farm Search

             from khale@ballistic.com

Message  10: Re: funktionluste or cows without heads?

             from "Ted Ground" 

Message  11: Re: Greenhouse Construction Plans was Tank sources

             from "Ted Ground" 

Message  12: RE: NFT Troughs

             from Jennifer Grunest 

Message  13: Re: Farm Search

             from Jose Pelleya 

Message  14: RE: Aquaculture outlook for 99

             from Alejandro Gallardo Valencia 

Message  15: Big Fish

             from Dave Miller 

Message  16: Re: Tank sources

             from "Dale Robinson" 

Message  17: Re: Greenhouse Construction Plans was Tank sources

             from Adriana Gutierrez 

Message  18: News item

             from "Paul Anthony" 

Message  19: three pound lettuce bags

             from Jeff 

Message  20: Re: Farm Search

             from "Marc S. Nameth" 

Message  21: Salvation Utility Vehicles

             from jilli and lars 

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| Message 1                                                           |

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Subject: Re: NFT Troughs

From:    jilli and lars 

Date:    Mon, 08 Mar 1999 22:29:26 -0800

hi dale -

        Thanks for the research. Sorry i was too lazy to carry it out myself.

        But, well, especially as their are alternatives to aluminum, maybe

avoiding the use of it association with food production would be a good idea, at

least until the verdict is in. I mean, your quote is exactly conclusive...

        After all, in general, metals and hydroponics/aquaculture don't mix. And

if it will adversely affect plant and animal growth in 'high enough'

concentrations, I wonder how high concentrations will have to get before it

will, even slightly, adversely affect me in some way? Would you actually _feel_

if your IQ dropped a couple of points over several years? Probably not, but i

still wouldn't want it to happen anyway.

        And just because scientists can't measure it doesn't mean it ain't

happenning.

lars

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| Message 2                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Farm Search

From:    Dave Miller 

Date:    Tue, 09 Mar 1999 02:48:53 -0500

Marc said:

>looking for acreage to raise boys,

Is this a new farming technique or do you know something we should know?

--

Dave

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| Message 3                                                           |

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Subject: Re: NFT lettuce in prison

From:    Dave Miller 

Date:    Tue, 09 Mar 1999 03:25:12 -0500

Sunpeer,

If what you have described is helping rehabilitate our prision system it

holds merit. I am jealous as I never thought that I could learn this

much by being a criminal. If they are eating the end products I may have

to commit a crime.

I am both serious and joking. I could not afford this knowledge in

college....

Does this mean that the end product, ie. potentially organic produce is

being eaten by prisoners even if they are ready to re-enter society?

I have to ask as I personally have to choose between organic or not on a

weekly basis with my budget - for those that I do not grow on my own.

I am happy to hear that we are retraining the population in a positive

way, thanks for your input.

Dave

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| Message 4                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Tank sources

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Tue, 9 Mar 1999 04:30:21 EST

Good Morning Brian,Contact Paula at S&S,They have the new price list,and can

get you the best price. Ken

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| Message 5                                                           |

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Subject: Re: NFT Troughs

From:    "W.Warren" 

Date:    Tue, 09 Mar 1999 06:00:53 -0500

> > Does anyone use NFT troughs in their lettuce production?  If so, do you

> > have any links to these products?

I use plastic rain gutters from a local supplier in one system and 3" pvc

pipes in

another.  The rain gutters lose more to evaporation but are easier to clean.

Both

are inexpensive.

Will

check out the biobarge!

http://www.shore.net/~wbw

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| Message 6                                                           |

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Subject: Re: NFT Troughs

From:    Adriana Gutierrez 

Date:    Tue, 09 Mar 1999 07:41:51 -0500

Susanne,

As I said in my earlier post my aluminum trays have a

factory-baked enamel coat on them which eliminates any contact

with the raw metal.  The advantage of these trays is that they

are lightweight, easy to clean, intelock, very modular and look

very neat and clean which is excellent for impressing visitors.

You don't want to expost your fish or plants to the elements in

galvanized products, I believe it is the zinc.

Adriana

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| Message 7                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Tank sources

From:    S & S Aqua Farm 

Date:    Tue, 09 Mar 1999 06:58:18 -0600

At 10:55 PM 3/8/99 -0600, Brian wrote:

>Does anyone have any tank sources and prices listed anywhere.  Does

>PolyTank have a website?

Brian, here's the info on Polytank:

Polytank Corp.

62824 250th St. 

Litchfield, MN  55355

320-693-8370/9323

800-328-7659

FAX 320-693-2434

Tony

Web site:  http://www.polydome.com/polytank.html

email 

You can contact us at  if you need more information.

Paula

S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124

Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

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| Message 8                                                           |

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Subject: RE: Tank sources

From:    "MacQuarrie, Carla" 

Date:    Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:11:00 -0400

I am looking for construction plans for a 30' x 100' greenhouse with

intent to set up an aquaponics operation. I'm looking at wood

construction, double layer vinyl, gravel floor.  Any suggestions?

Carla

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| Message 9                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Farm Search

From:    khale@ballistic.com

Date:    Tue, 09 Mar 1999 07:19:40 -0600

How many acres are you looking for?  There are some opportunities here in

Rusk County (East Texas) where land prices have not yet gone back up.

Ken---------At 08:38 PM 3/8/99 -0700, you wrote:

>

>We're leaving Thursday morning, 3-11-99 to make a trip

>through Nebraska, Kansas, Colorado, Missouri, Oklahoma,

>Texas and New Mexico areas looking for acreage to raise

>boys, pastured poultry, aquaponics, vermiculture, berries

>and small fruits.  We're looking to find something with or

>without improvements as long as building codes wouldn't

>prohibit us from putting in a mobile home or straw bale.  If

>you have any ideas/suggestions, please EMail to

>marc@dimensional.com.

>

>Wish us Luck

>

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| Message 10                                                          |

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Subject: Re: funktionluste or cows without heads?

From:    "Ted Ground" 

Date:    Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:20:41 -0600

Lars,

Oh, my friend.  Oh boy.  Where do I begin?

How about with a joke?  

Knock Knock.

Who's there?

Sam and Janet.

Sam and Janet Who?

Some Enchanted Evening....You will find the Truth, Lars.....

O.K. enough of that. Here we go. Let's take a depth breath. 

Lars, there are many folks on this list would probably prefer that I not

even respond to your last message, because it has to do less with the

technical aspects of aquaponics and more to do with your world view or

political persuasions.  I am of the opinion however, that those who are

interested in aquaponics as more than a hobby should be concerned about

such view points.  If aquaponics is in its infancy, as they say, then its

future could potentially suffer delays, perhaps suffer from petty

restrictions based on misunderstanding the biology of the animals, and

potentially we could see this technology decline into obscurity- all from

the implications of your world view.  A crib death for the infant

innovations proposed on this list is something I would not choose to

witness.  Because I want the ADMs and the mom and pops and the farms of

various sizes in between those ends of the spectrum to investigate and

develop aquaponics, I must respond to your views as best I can.

In a related matter, I believe that the scenescence you referred to in your

treatise on the rise and fall of empires is an important topic.  Since ours

is a technical civilization, and aquaponics is a kind of technology which

could potentially play a large role in doing good things for this

civilization, I am of course concerned about factors which would contribute

to senescence.  Your world view, in my opinion, would be, for our technical

civilization, analogous to the role aluminum might play in the alzheimer

victim , if in fact that is the contributing or causative agent in senile

dementia.

Lars writes:

>         But fish farmers often push organisms to their _very limit_ in

terms of

> stocking. 

To make a statement like that, you must know what the limits are, and you

must know of many cases of different farms growing different species in

many different ways.  Perhaps you are an experienced fish farmer yourself,

if so, I encourage you to stay the course and share with us what you have

learned. You say that pushing the limit takes place often.  So, what is the

limit? How can one tell if it has been pushed to the limit, how often does

it get pushed to the limit? And who does it?  

You wrote:

> It doesn't mean that they are comfortable.

Fish comfort seems important to you.  Since you referred to it, I guess you

think it is important enough for us to know what that means in this forum. 

But it sounds vague to me. Let's start with what you mean by that in terms

that hopefully all of us can understand.  If you are going to object to

something, or recommend something, please let us know what you mean if

possible. Can you define it or at least describe it in more specific

language?

Next, can you  tell me if you think fish or other animals are comfortable

in Nature, in the wild? And can you tell me why you think you know that?  

Third, do you think animals are sentient and that they have or should have

political, moral, and/or spiritual rights above and beyond the

considerations of cruelty which are commonly accepted or at least were

commonly accepted as recently as the last several generations?  I am not

talking about traditional concepts of avoiding animal cruelty- most farmers

I know are never cruel to their animals. I am talking about your concepts

of the rights of fish grown in aquaculture today.  Mere domestication

itself- of any kind-  is now being tauted as cruelty by some, including the

traditional family dog...no matter how the pet is treated.  So tell us

where you stand on that issue, especially vis a vis aquaculture.  Please be

specific.  Where do animal rights begin and end for you, if you can define

those boundaries, please let us know.

Do you think Nature is kind?  Does Nature keep every creature comfortable?

Is Nature Itself Sentient, having anthropomorphic and/or divine attributes,

in your opinion? This is not a question I am posing just to stir up a fight

or just to argue for its own sake. Your political philosophy is obviously

diametrically opposed to mine, and that in itself is not the purpose for

this forum, in my opinion.  I am asking because I think aquaponics is

important for solving environmental and food problems so it is important

that we define our terms, if we can, when we refer to any aspect of animal

culture, because that is what aquaponics is about.  It is also important

that we know why any objections to the various approaches to aquaponics

relating to animal culture or other operating methods might be raised, and

whether those objections can be understood and judged reasonable, or

whether in fact they are based on fantasy or reality.

You wrote:

 >Similarly, although I don't know exactly what's going on in a

> factory-farmed cow or chicken or tilapia's brain, but I imagine that

they're

> more unhappy than the average corporate-fodder humanoid.

Yes, Lars, you do not know what is going on in an animal brain.  Yet you

insist that a factory farmed animal is unhappy therefore you imply that in

fact you do know what is going on in there.  Furthermore, you imply that

you know what is going on in the average humanoid brain.  I don't think you

know that either.  You also imply that an animal on any kind of farm other

than the "factory" kind, or one which is in Nature is having such a

fundamentally different internal experience that those critters must be

Happy and Comfortable.  So, you leave us once again with an opinion and a

position based upon terms we cannot hope to understand. 

 

Lars writes:

>         And  very soon companies like ADM will be 'consulting' mother

nature,

> so to speak. Their way of thinking - "Hell, if the cow in the milk

factory

> 'farm' is unhappy, why not make a cow without a brain? Even better, we'll

just

> make one without a head, just a couple of tubes going into its neck and a

> couple of tubes coming out it's other ends."

So, not only do you know whether an animal is happy or comfortable, but you

seem to know what ADM will do, and what they are collectively thinking

before, during, and after their actions. I can assure you that since you

don't know what is going on in the average corporate fodder humanoid brain,

you can't know what these people are thinking either. But, just in case,

could I get you to give me some inside info when I begin trading shares of

stock in ADM?

Lars says:

>And 'harvest weight' is no absolute

> measure of comfort, just as the weight of the average american is no

measure of

> their comfort level.

So, if I follow your logic here, a really big fat fish caught from the wild

might need an animal psychologist not because it suffered the trauma of

biting that big treble hook, but because it has some long term unmet need

or isn't really Happy or Comfortable in that particular pond or

stream...Long before the fisherman arrived?  Please clarify the

relationships between animal obesity in Nature, and on the farm, with their

internal mental and emotional status.

Lars writes:

>         Pelletized food is fine. I have corn flakes every morning. It's

just

> important that the source is organic. Otherwise something is missing.

What that

> something _is_,  I honestly can't tell you, but i can surely taste it!

You are a cheerleader for organic food and so am I.  Isn't that great? I

have reasons that I can point to.  I think organic food production methods

in it's simplest terms conserves resources such as soil, water, nutrients,

and money-  All of which are important whether you accept that money is

important or not.  Therefore in theory organic culture can reduce such

problems as water pollution due to soil erosion because of better soil

structure and better nutrient retention. (Although tillage practice has a

lot to do with agricultural inputs to water pollution, organic or not). And

in the long run, I think organic is more energetically and economically

efficient. I believe this is true both for aquaculture as well as dirt

agriculture. I cannot taste the difference in organic produce and

conventional except in extreme cases.  We must admit to the fact that the

extended life span of folks in the industrialized world has something to do

with better nutrition compared with 300 years ago- obesity, cancer, and

heart disease notwithstanding. So the fact is that conventional ag gives us

pretty darn good nutrition in our food supply relative to a 1000 years ago-

but I agree that organic can be a better way to grow nutritious food, so

let's go for it. 

 

More from Lars:

>         And pelletized food should only be a staple, not the entire diet.

Every

> aquarist knows that they can use flakes or pellets as a staple, but in

order

> for real health, active behavior and vibrant color the fish must be fed

LIVE

> food. For example, the tiny crustaceans that are often used as live feeds

for

> tropical fish contain beta-carotenes which give the captive fish the more

> vibrant red coloration seen in wild fish. Fish fed only processed food

look

> pale and sickly. But that is only an _indicator_ of the many other things

that

> are probably missing in a pelletized diet.

Fish must be fed LIVE food?  How does this impact your concept of the

happiness and comfort of the animals we must grow to feed the pet fish?

Indeed, what about the feelings of the forage animal? Will they suffer

psychological trauma at the prospects of being cultured only to be eaten by

human pets?

There are certain advantages to combining natural plankton foods with the

nutrients we bring to fish culture by using food pellets. Nobody said

pelletized food is perfect. Neither is a Natural Diet.  So, I have another

question for you Lars.  Prove to me that all animals in Nature always

acquire perfect nutrition from Nature at all times.  You seem to believe

that some level of nutritional perfection is attainable, and that it is out

there in Nature somewhere, so therefore, you must know what that

nutritional perfection is. Since you object to the use of a pelleted diet

which still has a long way to go, but which has been researched in depth by

the intensive work of lots of idealists and progressive scientists for

decades, you must know what is missing.  Please tell us what that is and

tell us how to fix it. 

Phytoplankton provides our favorite fish, the Tilapia, with essential fatty

acids and plant pigments such as the carotenes you mentioned.  It also

helps in probiotic disease control, I suspect, and it helps to control

nitrogenous waste.  So I am all for letting the sun do some remarkable work

of biochemistry through plankton photosynthesis and thus making better fish

nutrition and making fish yields more efficient.  There are many other

environmental benefits to this greenwater fish culture approach.  But guess

what, Lars.  Did you know that large corporate growers of Tilapia in the US

and Israel have been using natural food sources of phytoplankton plus

pelleted feeds to work out these innovations and address these problems in

an ecologically integrated way for many years now? These are the corporate

pigs and scientists you seem to despise so much.  These folks want to feed

the world and are trying to work out the kinks in the short time that we

seem to have and you are drawing parallels to heartless Nazis for trying to

do that within the framework of large organizations.  That takes the cake.

Lars tells us:

>the US is _the_ current > global empire) 

>A corporation doesn't have a conscience, moral fiber, guilt, or

> even memory.

Man.....I can't even touch the last part of your message on line, so I

refuse to do this on Aquaponics time.  If you want to correspond with me in

private about how wrong your political philosophy is you may do so, but I

advise you to be prepared to deal with some facts..  

Ted 

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| Message 11                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Greenhouse Construction Plans was Tank sources

From:    "Ted Ground" 

Date:    Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:54:03 -0600

----------

> From: MacQuarrie, Carla 

> To: 'aquaponics@townsqr.com'

> Subject: RE: Tank sources

> Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 7:11 AM

> 

> I am looking for construction plans for a 30' x 100' greenhouse with

> intent to set up an aquaponics operation. I'm looking at wood

> construction, double layer vinyl, gravel floor.  Any suggestions?

> 

> Carla

>

Carla

 

Check out this book:  Secrets to a Successful Greenhouse and Business. by

T.M. Taylor.  In the back of the book, you will find just what you are

looking for, I think.

Please be advised that wooden greenhouses of that size have some

disadvantages. Structural wood in the greenhouse eventually rots, as some

of us can attest to.

I would take that plan in Taylors book and look at doing the same with

structural steel.  You can order this book by checking out the website at

www.amerinursery.com or by calling 800-621-5727.  They also offer a video

entitled Greenhouse design and construction that you might benefit from.

While we are on the subject of Taylors book.  Adriana- are you there? 

Taylor apparently lives in Florida- Sarasota I think.  Adriana you live in

Florida?

Anyway, Taylor describes a type of greenhouse design he calls the Ultima

greenhouse.  It looks pretty cool to me, and I am curious about learning

more, but the book does not specify how I can find out more.  Do you have

any information on Ultima designed greenhouses in your area, Adriana?  Any

suggestions out there?

Ted

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| Message 12                                                          |

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Subject: RE: NFT Troughs

From:    Jennifer Grunest 

Date:    Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:51:19 -0800

I picked up black plastic sheets that fit into the top of the rain gutters. 

 You can get them cut with various hole sizes and spacing at a hydroponics 

supplier (not expensive), otherwise I'm sure they could be made at home. 

 They seem to work well to avoid evaporation loss as well as keeping pets 

and kids out!

On Tuesday, March 09, 1999 3:01 AM, W.Warren [SMTP:wwarren@massed.net] 

wrote:

> > > Does anyone use NFT troughs in their lettuce production?  If so, do 

you

> > > have any links to these products?

>

> I use plastic rain gutters from a local supplier in one system and 3" pvc 

pipes in

> another.  The rain gutters lose more to evaporation but are easier to 

clean.  Both

> are inexpensive.

>

> Will

> check out the biobarge!

> http://www.shore.net/~wbw

>

> 

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| Message 13                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Farm Search

From:    Jose Pelleya 

Date:    Tue, 09 Mar 1999 07:43:42 -0700

Marc:

If you can't find it there, come to Costa Rica.

12 month growing season, good volcanic soil, and you can build your bamboo

house here.

Jose

At 08:38 PM 3/8/99 -0700, you wrote:

>

>We're leaving Thursday morning, 3-11-99 to make a trip

>through Nebraska, Kansas, Colorado, Missouri, Oklahoma,

>Texas and New Mexico areas looking for acreage to raise

>boys, pastured poultry, aquaponics, vermiculture, berries

>and small fruits.  We're looking to find something with or

>without improvements as long as building codes wouldn't

>prohibit us from putting in a mobile home or straw bale.  If

>you have any ideas/suggestions, please EMail to

>marc@dimensional.com.

>

>Wish us Luck

>

Thought for the day:

Grandma: My grandmother has a bumper sticker on her car that says, 'Sexy

Senior Citizen'. You don't want to think of your Grandmother that way, do

you?  Out entering wet shawl contests! Makes you wonder where she got that

dollar she gave you for your birthday!

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| Message 14                                                          |

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Subject: RE: Aquaculture outlook for 99

From:    Alejandro Gallardo Valencia 

Date:    Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:30:29 -0600

Ronald:

I'm interested in the 99 aquaculture outlook, if no one at the list is =

interested, and if it's not too much trouble, my e-mail is =

arturosm@sanchezm.com.mx.

Best regards.

Alejandro

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| Message 15                                                          |

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Subject: Big Fish

From:    Dave Miller 

Date:    Tue, 09 Mar 1999 14:03:05 -0500

Boys, go back to your corners, please:

Aquaponics is duplicating nature in a technological sense as best as we

understand it. It also means that we are perfecting nature like a

beekeeper has learned to harness bees to better produce honey than they

would by themselves. We are learning, this is a trial and error

situation.

At the same time, the fish do have personalities and certain rights to

not be abused as if they were unimportant. If we are going to tinker

with living things we should do so humbly. A friend speaking of

reincarnation said to me why do we think we start as an amoeba an end as

a human. Since we make moral decisions and often make "wrong" ones

wouldn't it make more sense to come back as a perfected specie like an

ant? or a bat or a dolphin? She might be right!

As to grand scale vs mom and pop, a grand scale may very well have the

resources to so called "perfect" a system but I believe that the "greed"

usually follows or even initiates such a scale. ADM, Monsanto and many

other multinational conglomerates have alot of muscle that unfortunately

can do harm when greed comes to town. If they put their R&D money into

clean, honest effort to help the population before lining their own

pockets we would be kissing the Blarney stone - but none such luck here.

BTW factory farmed chickens get more illnesses than free range if that

rates on a happy vs unhappy scale. And this just in, New York City is

the heart attack winner of the USA, certainly NYC has very happy people

despite the stress/density ratio but statistics show otherwise. Oh and

cows now are being "tricked" prior to slaughter, they are brought to

their resting place on a decidedly curved platform rather than a

conventional straight aisle so as to prevent them from figuring out what

is going on (I saw a video on this last week so I am not making this

up). The purpose is to keep them calm so that they do not tense up

(which creates body chemical reactions).  You and I would be tense

knowing we were heading for the gallows waiting in some long line.

Back to fish...(and I don't even eat them).

--

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| Message 16                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Tank sources

From:    "Dale Robinson" 

Date:    Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:12:18 -0600

Wood is not good in greenhouses.  The high humidity will rot it out within a

few years.  There was some discussion about using pvc pipes for this purpose

in the hydrolist.

You can do a search of the hydrolist by using a link on my web site(easy to

Find).  There are lots of other sites that my help you as well.

Best regards

Dale Robinson

prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net



>I am looking for construction plans for a 30' x 100' greenhouse with

>intent to set up an aquaponics operation. I'm looking at wood

>construction, double layer vinyl, gravel floor.  Any suggestions?

>

>Carla

>

>

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| Message 17                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Greenhouse Construction Plans was Tank sources

From:    Adriana Gutierrez 

Date:    Tue, 09 Mar 1999 15:30:51 -0500

> While we are on the subject of Taylors book.  Adriana- are you there?

> Taylor apparently lives in Florida- Sarasota I think.  Adriana you live in

> Florida?

> Anyway, Taylor describes a type of greenhouse design he calls the Ultima

> greenhouse.  It looks pretty cool to me, and I am curious about learning

> more, but the book does not specify how I can find out more.  Do you have

> any information on Ultima designed greenhouses in your area, Adriana?  Any

> suggestions out there?

Yes, I'm in Sarasota Ted. I've never heard of him or his

greenhouses but my landlord is a 2nd generation grenhouse guy

from this area.  I'll check with him and if all else fails I'll

look in the phone book.

Adriana

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| Message 18                                                          |

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Subject: News item

From:    "Paul Anthony" 

Date:    Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:13:17 -0600

Some of you may have missed seeing an article headed "Designer fish =

flounder over legal hurdles" in The Christian Science Monitor of 3/4/99. =

I'll quote what I think are a couple of the more significant paragraphs: =

" By 2002 A/F Protein Inc., an international biotech firm based in =

Waltham, Mass., plans to market genetically engineered salmon that reach =

market size in half the normal 28 months. The patented AquAdvangage fish =

use rearranged bits of flounder and salmon genes to stimulate an =

over-production of hormones speeding early salmon growth by 400 percent. =

It would be the first genetically engineered animal available for human =

consumption.=20

"A/F Protein has used the same technique to design accelerated growth =

flounder, trout, arctic char, and freshwater tilapia. Just under 100,000 =

of these creatures now swim in high-security, flood-proof tanks in =

Newfoundland, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island, and are being =

bred with normal fish to stabilize the genetic lines for potential sale =

to fish farms.=20

"...If transgenic fish are approved in the U.S. Canada, or Chile, the =

first eggs will be available at the end of 2000. and the first fish =

could arrive in supermarkets by 2002. "

The near full-page article goes on to deal with legal hurdles and the =

economics of genetic engineering.

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| Message 19                                                          |

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Subject: three pound lettuce bags

From:    Jeff 

Date:    Tue, 09 Mar 1999 17:00:55 -0700

Does any one know a source for three pound bags (vented) for mixed

lettuces? This is the standard size for most mixed greens coming out of

California. I thought monte packaging would be a source but they only

have 1 pound size.

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| Message 20                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: Farm Search

From:    "Marc S. Nameth" 

Date:    Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:07:31 -0700

Hi,

We have two little guys and one on the way (we don't know if

it's a guy or gal).

We figure the farm/agricultural life is best for the little

ones. They self plant and you just hose 'em off at the end

of the day.

Marc Nameth

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| Message 21                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Salvation Utility Vehicles

From:    jilli and lars 

Date:    Tue, 09 Mar 1999 17:21:39 -0800

ted -

    Why are you concerned that I badmouth a price-fixing monopolistic

corporate giant? What stake do you have in ADM? You know, they pay a lot

for their PR, you should see if you can get a piece of that pie.

        In your attempts to shoebox me, you've got me all wrong. I've

kept pets all my life. And I'm an omnivore. I would hunt if it were

possible to do so without feeling silly, but the lack of 'wildness' in

the world always makes it seem so...well...staged. I hate fishing in

waterways that are stocked. Though the thought of spearfishing is quite

appealing....

        And I don't believe in the deification of anything. Though I do

believe that sentience is not a 'have' or 'have not' issue - there are

degrees and types of sentience and animals have taught me to respect

varieties other than the human flavors of intelligence and

self-awareness.

        In reference to stocking rates, feeding, etc. -  No, I don't

believe fish are _always_ comfortable in nature. But species evolve in

concert with their environment, and all species are adapted to react

favorably to and thrive in condtions that they find _optimal_. I think

these _optimal_ conditions should be the environment that aquaculturists

should strive to re-create in the captive domestic environment.

        With respect to factory farming techniques, I think many

companies are crossing over that line in seeking to gain an _optimal_

profit. Cutting off chicken beaks and rigidly immoblizing hormone-fed

mutant cattle does cross that line, in my opinion. I dare you to find

anyone on the list who could visit one of these dairy farms without

feeling _extremely_ uncomfortable. Optimal conditions/Optimal profit -

it's a balance, for sure - and i understand profit will be a motive for

many people engaged in business. But which way should we tip the scales?

Maybe I can't define cruelty, but I know it when i see it.

        I think the future probably _requires_ the partial domestication

of all living things, or at least their 'quarantine' in carefully

maintained wildlife refuges (such is basically the case already), just

to prevent massive extinction. Loss of  animal habitat due to

overpopulation of the planet with human biomass dictates this. And I'm

not ready to personally sacrifice having children for the sake of

reducing the world's population, so I wouldn't expect others to. World

population growth _is_ levelling off so their is some hope in that

realm.

        But if many species are to survive, it will probably be

necessary for us to learn how to co-habitate with animals much more than

we are doing now. For example, our cities can  have "green roads" - ie.

continuous unbroken-by-asphalt strips of 'parkways' that allow animals

to 'infiltrate' our urban and sub-urban spaces without getting hit by

cars (wouldn't be bad for bikes neither). And techniques must be

explored for the encapsulation of ecosystems into smaller units so that

as we transform the land from 'wild' to 'domesticated', we can at least

preserve tiny symbiotic vacuoles of these lost ecosystems.

        That's my stake in these aquaponic-type technologies - designing

systems for human and animal cohabitation. Most north americans don't

value living things or biodiversity, or at least they don't value them

more than they value their 'right' to drive a car. So people get these

SUV's for their weekend getaways so they can drive over delicate desert

vegetation or tromp through creeks? The irony in those ads is so

offensive. Luckily, most of the people-oids who drive them are too busy

working on the weekends to actually take them 'off road' and do real

damage. The real irony is that they are being sold as vehicles to

freedom, when all they're really used for is going in circles (ie.

commuting).

        Boredom and depression are a plague in this country  - Prozac

was THE most prescribed substance (before viagra came along).  Animal

husbandry and horticulture can be a _real_ alternative to redirect our

attention from the usual diversions we choose to fill the cavernous void

that modern life leaves in it's wake. Where's this leisure time we were

promised? The average north american will spend 1/5th of their life in

an automobile and still call it 'freedom'. This massive suburban

experiment that started in the 50's has failed miserably. How can we

salvage what's left?

        Maybe those other 'non-sentient' animals can teach us something,

if we can just stop watching the television for a moment and pay

attention to what _they_ want.

lars fields

S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124

Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/



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