Aquaponics Digest - Tue 03/09/99
Message 1: Re: NFT Troughs
from jilli and lars
Message 2: Re: Farm Search
from Dave Miller
Message 3: Re: NFT lettuce in prison
from Dave Miller
Message 4: Re: Tank sources
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 5: Re: NFT Troughs
from "W.Warren"
Message 6: Re: NFT Troughs
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 7: Re: Tank sources
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 8: RE: Tank sources
from "MacQuarrie, Carla"
Message 9: Re: Farm Search
from khale@ballistic.com
Message 10: Re: funktionluste or cows without heads?
from "Ted Ground"
Message 11: Re: Greenhouse Construction Plans was Tank sources
from "Ted Ground"
Message 12: RE: NFT Troughs
from Jennifer Grunest
Message 13: Re: Farm Search
from Jose Pelleya
Message 14: RE: Aquaculture outlook for 99
from Alejandro Gallardo Valencia
Message 15: Big Fish
from Dave Miller
Message 16: Re: Tank sources
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 17: Re: Greenhouse Construction Plans was Tank sources
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 18: News item
from "Paul Anthony"
Message 19: three pound lettuce bags
from Jeff
Message 20: Re: Farm Search
from "Marc S. Nameth"
Message 21: Salvation Utility Vehicles
from jilli and lars
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: NFT Troughs
From: jilli and lars
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 22:29:26 -0800
hi dale -
Thanks for the research. Sorry i was too lazy to carry it out myself.
But, well, especially as their are alternatives to aluminum, maybe
avoiding the use of it association with food production would be a good idea, at
least until the verdict is in. I mean, your quote is exactly conclusive...
After all, in general, metals and hydroponics/aquaculture don't mix. And
if it will adversely affect plant and animal growth in 'high enough'
concentrations, I wonder how high concentrations will have to get before it
will, even slightly, adversely affect me in some way? Would you actually _feel_
if your IQ dropped a couple of points over several years? Probably not, but i
still wouldn't want it to happen anyway.
And just because scientists can't measure it doesn't mean it ain't
happenning.
lars
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: Farm Search
From: Dave Miller
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 02:48:53 -0500
Marc said:
>looking for acreage to raise boys,
Is this a new farming technique or do you know something we should know?
--
Dave
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: NFT lettuce in prison
From: Dave Miller
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 03:25:12 -0500
Sunpeer,
If what you have described is helping rehabilitate our prision system it
holds merit. I am jealous as I never thought that I could learn this
much by being a criminal. If they are eating the end products I may have
to commit a crime.
I am both serious and joking. I could not afford this knowledge in
college....
Does this mean that the end product, ie. potentially organic produce is
being eaten by prisoners even if they are ready to re-enter society?
I have to ask as I personally have to choose between organic or not on a
weekly basis with my budget - for those that I do not grow on my own.
I am happy to hear that we are retraining the population in a positive
way, thanks for your input.
Dave
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: Re: Tank sources
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 04:30:21 EST
Good Morning Brian,Contact Paula at S&S,They have the new price list,and can
get you the best price. Ken
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: Re: NFT Troughs
From: "W.Warren"
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 06:00:53 -0500
> > Does anyone use NFT troughs in their lettuce production? If so, do you
> > have any links to these products?
I use plastic rain gutters from a local supplier in one system and 3" pvc
pipes in
another. The rain gutters lose more to evaporation but are easier to clean.
Both
are inexpensive.
Will
check out the biobarge!
http://www.shore.net/~wbw
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| Message 6 |
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Subject: Re: NFT Troughs
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 07:41:51 -0500
Susanne,
As I said in my earlier post my aluminum trays have a
factory-baked enamel coat on them which eliminates any contact
with the raw metal. The advantage of these trays is that they
are lightweight, easy to clean, intelock, very modular and look
very neat and clean which is excellent for impressing visitors.
You don't want to expost your fish or plants to the elements in
galvanized products, I believe it is the zinc.
Adriana
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: Tank sources
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 06:58:18 -0600
At 10:55 PM 3/8/99 -0600, Brian wrote:
>Does anyone have any tank sources and prices listed anywhere. Does
>PolyTank have a website?
Brian, here's the info on Polytank:
Polytank Corp.
62824 250th St.
Litchfield, MN 55355
320-693-8370/9323
800-328-7659
FAX 320-693-2434
Tony
Web site: http://www.polydome.com/polytank.html
email
You can contact us at if you need more information.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: RE: Tank sources
From: "MacQuarrie, Carla"
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:11:00 -0400
I am looking for construction plans for a 30' x 100' greenhouse with
intent to set up an aquaponics operation. I'm looking at wood
construction, double layer vinyl, gravel floor. Any suggestions?
Carla
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: Farm Search
From: khale@ballistic.com
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 07:19:40 -0600
How many acres are you looking for? There are some opportunities here in
Rusk County (East Texas) where land prices have not yet gone back up.
Ken---------At 08:38 PM 3/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>We're leaving Thursday morning, 3-11-99 to make a trip
>through Nebraska, Kansas, Colorado, Missouri, Oklahoma,
>Texas and New Mexico areas looking for acreage to raise
>boys, pastured poultry, aquaponics, vermiculture, berries
>and small fruits. We're looking to find something with or
>without improvements as long as building codes wouldn't
>prohibit us from putting in a mobile home or straw bale. If
>you have any ideas/suggestions, please EMail to
>marc@dimensional.com.
>
>Wish us Luck
>
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: Re: funktionluste or cows without heads?
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:20:41 -0600
Lars,
Oh, my friend. Oh boy. Where do I begin?
How about with a joke?
Knock Knock.
Who's there?
Sam and Janet.
Sam and Janet Who?
Some Enchanted Evening....You will find the Truth, Lars.....
O.K. enough of that. Here we go. Let's take a depth breath.
Lars, there are many folks on this list would probably prefer that I not
even respond to your last message, because it has to do less with the
technical aspects of aquaponics and more to do with your world view or
political persuasions. I am of the opinion however, that those who are
interested in aquaponics as more than a hobby should be concerned about
such view points. If aquaponics is in its infancy, as they say, then its
future could potentially suffer delays, perhaps suffer from petty
restrictions based on misunderstanding the biology of the animals, and
potentially we could see this technology decline into obscurity- all from
the implications of your world view. A crib death for the infant
innovations proposed on this list is something I would not choose to
witness. Because I want the ADMs and the mom and pops and the farms of
various sizes in between those ends of the spectrum to investigate and
develop aquaponics, I must respond to your views as best I can.
In a related matter, I believe that the scenescence you referred to in your
treatise on the rise and fall of empires is an important topic. Since ours
is a technical civilization, and aquaponics is a kind of technology which
could potentially play a large role in doing good things for this
civilization, I am of course concerned about factors which would contribute
to senescence. Your world view, in my opinion, would be, for our technical
civilization, analogous to the role aluminum might play in the alzheimer
victim , if in fact that is the contributing or causative agent in senile
dementia.
Lars writes:
> But fish farmers often push organisms to their _very limit_ in
terms of
> stocking.
To make a statement like that, you must know what the limits are, and you
must know of many cases of different farms growing different species in
many different ways. Perhaps you are an experienced fish farmer yourself,
if so, I encourage you to stay the course and share with us what you have
learned. You say that pushing the limit takes place often. So, what is the
limit? How can one tell if it has been pushed to the limit, how often does
it get pushed to the limit? And who does it?
You wrote:
> It doesn't mean that they are comfortable.
Fish comfort seems important to you. Since you referred to it, I guess you
think it is important enough for us to know what that means in this forum.
But it sounds vague to me. Let's start with what you mean by that in terms
that hopefully all of us can understand. If you are going to object to
something, or recommend something, please let us know what you mean if
possible. Can you define it or at least describe it in more specific
language?
Next, can you tell me if you think fish or other animals are comfortable
in Nature, in the wild? And can you tell me why you think you know that?
Third, do you think animals are sentient and that they have or should have
political, moral, and/or spiritual rights above and beyond the
considerations of cruelty which are commonly accepted or at least were
commonly accepted as recently as the last several generations? I am not
talking about traditional concepts of avoiding animal cruelty- most farmers
I know are never cruel to their animals. I am talking about your concepts
of the rights of fish grown in aquaculture today. Mere domestication
itself- of any kind- is now being tauted as cruelty by some, including the
traditional family dog...no matter how the pet is treated. So tell us
where you stand on that issue, especially vis a vis aquaculture. Please be
specific. Where do animal rights begin and end for you, if you can define
those boundaries, please let us know.
Do you think Nature is kind? Does Nature keep every creature comfortable?
Is Nature Itself Sentient, having anthropomorphic and/or divine attributes,
in your opinion? This is not a question I am posing just to stir up a fight
or just to argue for its own sake. Your political philosophy is obviously
diametrically opposed to mine, and that in itself is not the purpose for
this forum, in my opinion. I am asking because I think aquaponics is
important for solving environmental and food problems so it is important
that we define our terms, if we can, when we refer to any aspect of animal
culture, because that is what aquaponics is about. It is also important
that we know why any objections to the various approaches to aquaponics
relating to animal culture or other operating methods might be raised, and
whether those objections can be understood and judged reasonable, or
whether in fact they are based on fantasy or reality.
You wrote:
>Similarly, although I don't know exactly what's going on in a
> factory-farmed cow or chicken or tilapia's brain, but I imagine that
they're
> more unhappy than the average corporate-fodder humanoid.
Yes, Lars, you do not know what is going on in an animal brain. Yet you
insist that a factory farmed animal is unhappy therefore you imply that in
fact you do know what is going on in there. Furthermore, you imply that
you know what is going on in the average humanoid brain. I don't think you
know that either. You also imply that an animal on any kind of farm other
than the "factory" kind, or one which is in Nature is having such a
fundamentally different internal experience that those critters must be
Happy and Comfortable. So, you leave us once again with an opinion and a
position based upon terms we cannot hope to understand.
Lars writes:
> And very soon companies like ADM will be 'consulting' mother
nature,
> so to speak. Their way of thinking - "Hell, if the cow in the milk
factory
> 'farm' is unhappy, why not make a cow without a brain? Even better, we'll
just
> make one without a head, just a couple of tubes going into its neck and a
> couple of tubes coming out it's other ends."
So, not only do you know whether an animal is happy or comfortable, but you
seem to know what ADM will do, and what they are collectively thinking
before, during, and after their actions. I can assure you that since you
don't know what is going on in the average corporate fodder humanoid brain,
you can't know what these people are thinking either. But, just in case,
could I get you to give me some inside info when I begin trading shares of
stock in ADM?
Lars says:
>And 'harvest weight' is no absolute
> measure of comfort, just as the weight of the average american is no
measure of
> their comfort level.
So, if I follow your logic here, a really big fat fish caught from the wild
might need an animal psychologist not because it suffered the trauma of
biting that big treble hook, but because it has some long term unmet need
or isn't really Happy or Comfortable in that particular pond or
stream...Long before the fisherman arrived? Please clarify the
relationships between animal obesity in Nature, and on the farm, with their
internal mental and emotional status.
Lars writes:
> Pelletized food is fine. I have corn flakes every morning. It's
just
> important that the source is organic. Otherwise something is missing.
What that
> something _is_, I honestly can't tell you, but i can surely taste it!
You are a cheerleader for organic food and so am I. Isn't that great? I
have reasons that I can point to. I think organic food production methods
in it's simplest terms conserves resources such as soil, water, nutrients,
and money- All of which are important whether you accept that money is
important or not. Therefore in theory organic culture can reduce such
problems as water pollution due to soil erosion because of better soil
structure and better nutrient retention. (Although tillage practice has a
lot to do with agricultural inputs to water pollution, organic or not). And
in the long run, I think organic is more energetically and economically
efficient. I believe this is true both for aquaculture as well as dirt
agriculture. I cannot taste the difference in organic produce and
conventional except in extreme cases. We must admit to the fact that the
extended life span of folks in the industrialized world has something to do
with better nutrition compared with 300 years ago- obesity, cancer, and
heart disease notwithstanding. So the fact is that conventional ag gives us
pretty darn good nutrition in our food supply relative to a 1000 years ago-
but I agree that organic can be a better way to grow nutritious food, so
let's go for it.
More from Lars:
> And pelletized food should only be a staple, not the entire diet.
Every
> aquarist knows that they can use flakes or pellets as a staple, but in
order
> for real health, active behavior and vibrant color the fish must be fed
LIVE
> food. For example, the tiny crustaceans that are often used as live feeds
for
> tropical fish contain beta-carotenes which give the captive fish the more
> vibrant red coloration seen in wild fish. Fish fed only processed food
look
> pale and sickly. But that is only an _indicator_ of the many other things
that
> are probably missing in a pelletized diet.
Fish must be fed LIVE food? How does this impact your concept of the
happiness and comfort of the animals we must grow to feed the pet fish?
Indeed, what about the feelings of the forage animal? Will they suffer
psychological trauma at the prospects of being cultured only to be eaten by
human pets?
There are certain advantages to combining natural plankton foods with the
nutrients we bring to fish culture by using food pellets. Nobody said
pelletized food is perfect. Neither is a Natural Diet. So, I have another
question for you Lars. Prove to me that all animals in Nature always
acquire perfect nutrition from Nature at all times. You seem to believe
that some level of nutritional perfection is attainable, and that it is out
there in Nature somewhere, so therefore, you must know what that
nutritional perfection is. Since you object to the use of a pelleted diet
which still has a long way to go, but which has been researched in depth by
the intensive work of lots of idealists and progressive scientists for
decades, you must know what is missing. Please tell us what that is and
tell us how to fix it.
Phytoplankton provides our favorite fish, the Tilapia, with essential fatty
acids and plant pigments such as the carotenes you mentioned. It also
helps in probiotic disease control, I suspect, and it helps to control
nitrogenous waste. So I am all for letting the sun do some remarkable work
of biochemistry through plankton photosynthesis and thus making better fish
nutrition and making fish yields more efficient. There are many other
environmental benefits to this greenwater fish culture approach. But guess
what, Lars. Did you know that large corporate growers of Tilapia in the US
and Israel have been using natural food sources of phytoplankton plus
pelleted feeds to work out these innovations and address these problems in
an ecologically integrated way for many years now? These are the corporate
pigs and scientists you seem to despise so much. These folks want to feed
the world and are trying to work out the kinks in the short time that we
seem to have and you are drawing parallels to heartless Nazis for trying to
do that within the framework of large organizations. That takes the cake.
Lars tells us:
>the US is _the_ current > global empire)
>A corporation doesn't have a conscience, moral fiber, guilt, or
> even memory.
Man.....I can't even touch the last part of your message on line, so I
refuse to do this on Aquaponics time. If you want to correspond with me in
private about how wrong your political philosophy is you may do so, but I
advise you to be prepared to deal with some facts..
Ted
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: Re: Greenhouse Construction Plans was Tank sources
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:54:03 -0600
----------
> From: MacQuarrie, Carla
> To: 'aquaponics@townsqr.com'
> Subject: RE: Tank sources
> Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 7:11 AM
>
> I am looking for construction plans for a 30' x 100' greenhouse with
> intent to set up an aquaponics operation. I'm looking at wood
> construction, double layer vinyl, gravel floor. Any suggestions?
>
> Carla
>
Carla
Check out this book: Secrets to a Successful Greenhouse and Business. by
T.M. Taylor. In the back of the book, you will find just what you are
looking for, I think.
Please be advised that wooden greenhouses of that size have some
disadvantages. Structural wood in the greenhouse eventually rots, as some
of us can attest to.
I would take that plan in Taylors book and look at doing the same with
structural steel. You can order this book by checking out the website at
www.amerinursery.com or by calling 800-621-5727. They also offer a video
entitled Greenhouse design and construction that you might benefit from.
While we are on the subject of Taylors book. Adriana- are you there?
Taylor apparently lives in Florida- Sarasota I think. Adriana you live in
Florida?
Anyway, Taylor describes a type of greenhouse design he calls the Ultima
greenhouse. It looks pretty cool to me, and I am curious about learning
more, but the book does not specify how I can find out more. Do you have
any information on Ultima designed greenhouses in your area, Adriana? Any
suggestions out there?
Ted
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: RE: NFT Troughs
From: Jennifer Grunest
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:51:19 -0800
I picked up black plastic sheets that fit into the top of the rain gutters.
You can get them cut with various hole sizes and spacing at a hydroponics
supplier (not expensive), otherwise I'm sure they could be made at home.
They seem to work well to avoid evaporation loss as well as keeping pets
and kids out!
On Tuesday, March 09, 1999 3:01 AM, W.Warren [SMTP:wwarren@massed.net]
wrote:
> > > Does anyone use NFT troughs in their lettuce production? If so, do
you
> > > have any links to these products?
>
> I use plastic rain gutters from a local supplier in one system and 3" pvc
pipes in
> another. The rain gutters lose more to evaporation but are easier to
clean. Both
> are inexpensive.
>
> Will
> check out the biobarge!
> http://www.shore.net/~wbw
>
>
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| Message 13 |
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Subject: Re: Farm Search
From: Jose Pelleya
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 07:43:42 -0700
Marc:
If you can't find it there, come to Costa Rica.
12 month growing season, good volcanic soil, and you can build your bamboo
house here.
Jose
At 08:38 PM 3/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>We're leaving Thursday morning, 3-11-99 to make a trip
>through Nebraska, Kansas, Colorado, Missouri, Oklahoma,
>Texas and New Mexico areas looking for acreage to raise
>boys, pastured poultry, aquaponics, vermiculture, berries
>and small fruits. We're looking to find something with or
>without improvements as long as building codes wouldn't
>prohibit us from putting in a mobile home or straw bale. If
>you have any ideas/suggestions, please EMail to
>marc@dimensional.com.
>
>Wish us Luck
>
Thought for the day:
Grandma: My grandmother has a bumper sticker on her car that says, 'Sexy
Senior Citizen'. You don't want to think of your Grandmother that way, do
you? Out entering wet shawl contests! Makes you wonder where she got that
dollar she gave you for your birthday!
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| Message 14 |
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Subject: RE: Aquaculture outlook for 99
From: Alejandro Gallardo Valencia
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:30:29 -0600
Ronald:
I'm interested in the 99 aquaculture outlook, if no one at the list is =
interested, and if it's not too much trouble, my e-mail is =
arturosm@sanchezm.com.mx.
Best regards.
Alejandro
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| Message 15 |
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Subject: Big Fish
From: Dave Miller
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 14:03:05 -0500
Boys, go back to your corners, please:
Aquaponics is duplicating nature in a technological sense as best as we
understand it. It also means that we are perfecting nature like a
beekeeper has learned to harness bees to better produce honey than they
would by themselves. We are learning, this is a trial and error
situation.
At the same time, the fish do have personalities and certain rights to
not be abused as if they were unimportant. If we are going to tinker
with living things we should do so humbly. A friend speaking of
reincarnation said to me why do we think we start as an amoeba an end as
a human. Since we make moral decisions and often make "wrong" ones
wouldn't it make more sense to come back as a perfected specie like an
ant? or a bat or a dolphin? She might be right!
As to grand scale vs mom and pop, a grand scale may very well have the
resources to so called "perfect" a system but I believe that the "greed"
usually follows or even initiates such a scale. ADM, Monsanto and many
other multinational conglomerates have alot of muscle that unfortunately
can do harm when greed comes to town. If they put their R&D money into
clean, honest effort to help the population before lining their own
pockets we would be kissing the Blarney stone - but none such luck here.
BTW factory farmed chickens get more illnesses than free range if that
rates on a happy vs unhappy scale. And this just in, New York City is
the heart attack winner of the USA, certainly NYC has very happy people
despite the stress/density ratio but statistics show otherwise. Oh and
cows now are being "tricked" prior to slaughter, they are brought to
their resting place on a decidedly curved platform rather than a
conventional straight aisle so as to prevent them from figuring out what
is going on (I saw a video on this last week so I am not making this
up). The purpose is to keep them calm so that they do not tense up
(which creates body chemical reactions). You and I would be tense
knowing we were heading for the gallows waiting in some long line.
Back to fish...(and I don't even eat them).
--
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| Message 16 |
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Subject: Re: Tank sources
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:12:18 -0600
Wood is not good in greenhouses. The high humidity will rot it out within a
few years. There was some discussion about using pvc pipes for this purpose
in the hydrolist.
You can do a search of the hydrolist by using a link on my web site(easy to
Find). There are lots of other sites that my help you as well.
Best regards
Dale Robinson
prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net
>I am looking for construction plans for a 30' x 100' greenhouse with
>intent to set up an aquaponics operation. I'm looking at wood
>construction, double layer vinyl, gravel floor. Any suggestions?
>
>Carla
>
>
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| Message 17 |
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Subject: Re: Greenhouse Construction Plans was Tank sources
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 15:30:51 -0500
> While we are on the subject of Taylors book. Adriana- are you there?
> Taylor apparently lives in Florida- Sarasota I think. Adriana you live in
> Florida?
> Anyway, Taylor describes a type of greenhouse design he calls the Ultima
> greenhouse. It looks pretty cool to me, and I am curious about learning
> more, but the book does not specify how I can find out more. Do you have
> any information on Ultima designed greenhouses in your area, Adriana? Any
> suggestions out there?
Yes, I'm in Sarasota Ted. I've never heard of him or his
greenhouses but my landlord is a 2nd generation grenhouse guy
from this area. I'll check with him and if all else fails I'll
look in the phone book.
Adriana
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| Message 18 |
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Subject: News item
From: "Paul Anthony"
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:13:17 -0600
Some of you may have missed seeing an article headed "Designer fish =
flounder over legal hurdles" in The Christian Science Monitor of 3/4/99. =
I'll quote what I think are a couple of the more significant paragraphs: =
" By 2002 A/F Protein Inc., an international biotech firm based in =
Waltham, Mass., plans to market genetically engineered salmon that reach =
market size in half the normal 28 months. The patented AquAdvangage fish =
use rearranged bits of flounder and salmon genes to stimulate an =
over-production of hormones speeding early salmon growth by 400 percent. =
It would be the first genetically engineered animal available for human =
consumption.=20
"A/F Protein has used the same technique to design accelerated growth =
flounder, trout, arctic char, and freshwater tilapia. Just under 100,000 =
of these creatures now swim in high-security, flood-proof tanks in =
Newfoundland, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island, and are being =
bred with normal fish to stabilize the genetic lines for potential sale =
to fish farms.=20
"...If transgenic fish are approved in the U.S. Canada, or Chile, the =
first eggs will be available at the end of 2000. and the first fish =
could arrive in supermarkets by 2002. "
The near full-page article goes on to deal with legal hurdles and the =
economics of genetic engineering.
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| Message 19 |
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Subject: three pound lettuce bags
From: Jeff
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 17:00:55 -0700
Does any one know a source for three pound bags (vented) for mixed
lettuces? This is the standard size for most mixed greens coming out of
California. I thought monte packaging would be a source but they only
have 1 pound size.
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| Message 20 |
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Subject: Re: Farm Search
From: "Marc S. Nameth"
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:07:31 -0700
Hi,
We have two little guys and one on the way (we don't know if
it's a guy or gal).
We figure the farm/agricultural life is best for the little
ones. They self plant and you just hose 'em off at the end
of the day.
Marc Nameth
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| Message 21 |
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Subject: Salvation Utility Vehicles
From: jilli and lars
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 17:21:39 -0800
ted -
Why are you concerned that I badmouth a price-fixing monopolistic
corporate giant? What stake do you have in ADM? You know, they pay a lot
for their PR, you should see if you can get a piece of that pie.
In your attempts to shoebox me, you've got me all wrong. I've
kept pets all my life. And I'm an omnivore. I would hunt if it were
possible to do so without feeling silly, but the lack of 'wildness' in
the world always makes it seem so...well...staged. I hate fishing in
waterways that are stocked. Though the thought of spearfishing is quite
appealing....
And I don't believe in the deification of anything. Though I do
believe that sentience is not a 'have' or 'have not' issue - there are
degrees and types of sentience and animals have taught me to respect
varieties other than the human flavors of intelligence and
self-awareness.
In reference to stocking rates, feeding, etc. - No, I don't
believe fish are _always_ comfortable in nature. But species evolve in
concert with their environment, and all species are adapted to react
favorably to and thrive in condtions that they find _optimal_. I think
these _optimal_ conditions should be the environment that aquaculturists
should strive to re-create in the captive domestic environment.
With respect to factory farming techniques, I think many
companies are crossing over that line in seeking to gain an _optimal_
profit. Cutting off chicken beaks and rigidly immoblizing hormone-fed
mutant cattle does cross that line, in my opinion. I dare you to find
anyone on the list who could visit one of these dairy farms without
feeling _extremely_ uncomfortable. Optimal conditions/Optimal profit -
it's a balance, for sure - and i understand profit will be a motive for
many people engaged in business. But which way should we tip the scales?
Maybe I can't define cruelty, but I know it when i see it.
I think the future probably _requires_ the partial domestication
of all living things, or at least their 'quarantine' in carefully
maintained wildlife refuges (such is basically the case already), just
to prevent massive extinction. Loss of animal habitat due to
overpopulation of the planet with human biomass dictates this. And I'm
not ready to personally sacrifice having children for the sake of
reducing the world's population, so I wouldn't expect others to. World
population growth _is_ levelling off so their is some hope in that
realm.
But if many species are to survive, it will probably be
necessary for us to learn how to co-habitate with animals much more than
we are doing now. For example, our cities can have "green roads" - ie.
continuous unbroken-by-asphalt strips of 'parkways' that allow animals
to 'infiltrate' our urban and sub-urban spaces without getting hit by
cars (wouldn't be bad for bikes neither). And techniques must be
explored for the encapsulation of ecosystems into smaller units so that
as we transform the land from 'wild' to 'domesticated', we can at least
preserve tiny symbiotic vacuoles of these lost ecosystems.
That's my stake in these aquaponic-type technologies - designing
systems for human and animal cohabitation. Most north americans don't
value living things or biodiversity, or at least they don't value them
more than they value their 'right' to drive a car. So people get these
SUV's for their weekend getaways so they can drive over delicate desert
vegetation or tromp through creeks? The irony in those ads is so
offensive. Luckily, most of the people-oids who drive them are too busy
working on the weekends to actually take them 'off road' and do real
damage. The real irony is that they are being sold as vehicles to
freedom, when all they're really used for is going in circles (ie.
commuting).
Boredom and depression are a plague in this country - Prozac
was THE most prescribed substance (before viagra came along). Animal
husbandry and horticulture can be a _real_ alternative to redirect our
attention from the usual diversions we choose to fill the cavernous void
that modern life leaves in it's wake. Where's this leisure time we were
promised? The average north american will spend 1/5th of their life in
an automobile and still call it 'freedom'. This massive suburban
experiment that started in the 50's has failed miserably. How can we
salvage what's left?
Maybe those other 'non-sentient' animals can teach us something,
if we can just stop watching the television for a moment and pay
attention to what _they_ want.
lars fields
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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