Aquaponics Digest - Wed 03/10/99
Message 1: Re: three pound lettuce bags
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 2: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles
from "Ted Ground"
Message 3: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
from "Ted Ground"
Message 4: Re: three pound lettuce bags
from Jeff
Message 5: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles
from "Wendy Nagurny"
Message 6: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
from William Evans
Message 7: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles
from "Ted Ground"
Message 8: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
from "Ted Ground"
Message 9: Re: three pound lettuce bags
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 10: Re: three pound lettuce bags
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 11: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 12: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 13: lettuce packaging and weighing
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 14: Vacuum packing lettuce
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 15: Re: three pound lettuce bags
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 16: Re: three pound lettuce bags
from "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Message 17: Re: lettuce packaging and weighing
from Gordon Watkins
Message 18: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
from Gordon Watkins
Message 19: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
from Gordon Watkins
Message 20: Re: Graywate /Wetlands/ EcoEngineering
from jilli and lars
Message 21: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
from jilli and lars
Message 22: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
from Rebecca Nelson
Message 23: Re: three pound lettuce bags
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 24: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 25: Re: Vacuum packing lettuce
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 26: Re: three pound lettuce bags
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 27: Re: three pound lettuce bags
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 28: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
from "Ted Ground"
Message 29: Re: three pound lettuce bags
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 30: Re: Tropical Fruits for the Greenhouse
from Axxcited
Message 31: Way Off Topic was Re: Graywate /Wetlands/ EcoEngineering
from Mike Miller
Message 32: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
from "Susanne Machler"
Message 33: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
from "Donald W. Trotter"
Message 34: Re: three pound lettuce bags
from "Dale Robinson"
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 05:50:57 -0500
Jeff,
Why do you want it vented? I know that when I've left a bowl of
mesclun mix open in the refrigerator for one or two hours it has
gotten limp and dehydrated due to the air flow in thr fridge.
I have a catalop from Pak-Sel 1-800-635-2247. They have
cellophane and polypropylene and polyethylene bags. They
manufacture in custom sizes to. The largest cellophane bag that
they make is 11.75" x 19.75" which doesn't look large enough.
They can custom make a breathable cellophane bag but I know of
people getting good results with the reular (not breathable) bag
from them.
Once you get to the 3# capacity I would think it better to use
boxes with a bag in side, because if you get an order for more
than one 3-pound package they can be stacked in a cooler without
damaging the goods.
Adriana
> Does any one know a source for three pound bags (vented) for mixed
> lettuces? This is the standard size for most mixed greens coming out of
> California. I thought monte packaging would be a source but they only
> have 1 pound size.
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:39:44 -0600
Lars,
Thanks for replying.
I will have to file that one.
Take care now.
Ted.
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:28:46 -0600
> Many of us talk about aquaponics as a means of food production.
> I would like the group to consider the implications of plant nursery
culture.
> Aquaponic systems could be used as tree, grasses, and other landscape
> plant/native vegetation nursery systems for the purpose of reforestation,
> soil erosion programs, and other forms of ecosystem restoration.
>
> I once read about an Australian fellow named Rolly Carrol who used tree
> tubes to establish trees and stabilize areas which have been mined for
sand
> and aggregate materials. The tubes are split PVC, about 0.75 to 1 meter
> long. He figured that if a young tree had very deep roots and very few
> leaves, it stood a greater chance of surviving in his rehabilitation
> efforts of these loose sandy soils, compared with conventional tree
> seedling methods. Apparently it worked well.
>
> I recall Tom and Paula reporting good success with rooting trees by
simply
> plunging a tree stem in their aquaponics gravel bed, which has had me
> thinking about this for some time. In that vein, I envision aquaponics
> systems as devoted nursery systems for such tree tubes or grass tubes,
etc.
> Imagine 2 to 3 foot cardboard or paper fiber tubes similiar to Rolly's
PVC
> tubes, lying down across the gravel bed of an aquaponics system. Picture
> them lying on this rectangular bed like enchiladas tucked neatly into a
> cassarole dish, if you must. It helps me. Wait a few months until the
root
> systems are well established.
>
> Now, you can go take on the Sahara, the Negev, and the Outback. Or plant
> some erosion control plants in your local watershed drainage basin,
> riperian zones. Do it for your ranch, your township, or your parish,
your
> and your great great grandchildren. Or make your suburban lawn a bit more
> forest-like and invite your Bowling Team or the Ladies Auxillary of the
> Lodge over for cocktails and appetizers.
>
> For inspiration along these lines,
>
> Case Studies in Environmental Hope. by Peter Newman, Simon Neville, and
> Louise Duxbury, Editors. from E.P.A. Support Services 2nd Floor, 1 Mount
> Street Perth, WA 6000, Australia.
>
> Environmental Restoration. John J. Berger Editor. 1990 298 pp. Island
> Press P.O. Box 7, Covelo, CA 95428 800-828-1302.
>
> The Man Who Planted Trees Jean Giono 1985 51pp. frm Chelsea Green
> Publishing Co. P.O. Box 130, Route 113 Post Mills, VT 05058 800 445-6638
> The Man Who Planted Trees Video (VHS) from CBC Home Video P.O. Box 6440
> Stantion A Montreal QC H3C3L4, Canada, 514-597-4040
>
> Society for Ecological Restoration & Management University of Wisconsin
> Arboretum, 1207 Seminole Highway Madison, WI 53711 608 263 7889
>
> Plant Conservation Journal The Center for Plant Conservation 125 The
> Arborway, Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 617-524 6988.
>
> Wetlands Research Update Journal free from United States Environmental
> Protection Agency Corvallis Environmental Research Laboratory 200
Southwest
> 35th Street, Corvallis, OR 97333
>
> You might get ADM or some other big corporate neighbors in your community
> to help fund such a restoration or habitat enhancement project in your
> location by contacting The Wildlife Habitat Enhancement Council This
> organization is a cooperative venture between some very large U.S.
> corporations and some very mainline conservation groups.They restore
> corporate landholdings, enhance wildlife habitat, and get their photo
> opportunites to appear green and charitable. After all, with all the
> countless sports utility vehicles ravaging every last vestige of
> wilderness, there will be an increased demand for that kind of 4 wheel
> drive terrain to ravage.- And after a while, where would you shoot the
> commericials? Supply and demand, you know. Gotta keep the customer
> satisfied.
>
> Contact Wildlife Habitat Enhancement Council 1010 Wayne Avenue Suite 210,
> Silver Spring, MD 20910 301 588-8994.
>
> Don't Worry. Be Happy.
>
> Ted.
>
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags
From: Jeff
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:43:38 -0700
Adriana Gutierrez wrote:
>
>
> I have a catalop from Pak-Sel 1-800-635-2247. They have
> cellophane and polypropylene and polyethylene bags. They
> manufacture in custom sizes to. The largest cellophane bag that
> they make is 11.75" x 19.75" which doesn't look large enough.
> They can custom make a breathable cellophane bag but I know of
> people getting good results with the reular (not breathable) bag
> from them.
>
> Once you get to the 3# capacity I would think it better to use
> boxes with a bag in side, because if you get an order for more
> than one 3-pound package they can be stacked in a cooler without
> damaging the goods.
>
> Adriana
Thanks Adriana, I didn't mean vented but "breathable". I have a
paticular large order coming up (25lbs). It will take about my total
current production to fill it. Your idea of a plastic lined box is a
good one. Still, I wonder what the California mixed greens people use?
They quote prices in 3 pound packages.
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:13:10 -0500
Lars,
>
> In reference to stocking rates, feeding, etc. - No, I don't
>believe fish are _always_ comfortable in nature. But species evolve in
>concert with their environment, and all species are adapted to react
>favorably to and thrive in condtions that they find _optimal_. I think
>these _optimal_ conditions should be the environment that aquaculturists
>should strive to re-create in the captive domestic environment.
This IS what aquaculturists strive for. Fish, whether sentient or not, have
a remarkable way to covey to their keeper that things are not to their
liking in their little world: they get sick and die. When the temperature,
pH, hardness, ammonia, nitrate, nitrate, etc. levels are outside what THEY
consider acceptable conditions or they are subjected to undue stress, they
will succumb every bug and opportunistic nasty that comes along. If they
find their living conditions totally intolerable, they just die. In a
business venture, sickies and floaters are money losers.
Often what we perceive as unacceptable may actually be preferable to the
fish. For instance, schooling fish are much happier when kept "crowded" if
the filtration system can keep up with the waste load. If too much space
exists between the individual and another object (the wall or another fish),
they become stressed. If genuine overcrowding condition do occur, nature
will thin the population. Some fish prefer to live in dark murky waters
(what we would call "dirty"). These fish will become stressed if the range
of vision is too great (water is too clean). Preferable conditions can also
change as the fish matures.
I feel that there is no governing body or document that can adequately
address the preferred living conditions of all the species we will try to
keep. In fact to try to do so would be a disservice to the fish it is
trying
to protect, as there will always be the individual strain or hybrid that
will fall outside the species norm. The best thing a document can do to
insure the "happiness" of the fish is to ban the prophylactic use of
antibiotics and other "band-aid" chemicals meant to prolong the life of the
improperly kept or cover up the result of excessive stress, and make the
therapeutic use of these so inconvenient (i.e. long holding periods after
use)
that the animals must be kept in optimum conditions to be profitable. The
proposed organic standards already do that.
> With respect to factory farming techniques, I think many
>companies are crossing over that line in seeking to gain an _optimal_
>profit. Cutting off chicken beaks and rigidly immoblizing hormone-fed
>mutant cattle does cross that line, in my opinion. I dare you to find
>anyone on the list who could visit one of these dairy farms without
>feeling _extremely_ uncomfortable. Optimal conditions/Optimal profit -
>it's a balance, for sure - and i understand profit will be a motive for
>many people engaged in business. But which way should we tip the scales?
>Maybe I can't define cruelty, but I know it when i see it.
I also find many of the common practices of factory farming cruel. The
animals find them unsatisfactory also or antibiotic laced feeds would not be
the norm at these places. Once again, it is better to eliminate the
band-aids than micro-manage conditions.
Wendy
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| Message 6 |
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
From: William Evans
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:29:27 -0800
the grass to grow is Vetiver.
T
> > leaves, it stood a greater chance of surviving in his rehabilitation
> > efforts of these loose sandy soils,
> >
> > Now, you can go take on the Sahara, the Negev, and the Outback. Or plant
> > some erosion control plants
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:30:33 -0600
Wendy,
Thanks for the input. I hope that you found something worthwhile in the
copy of the organic standards that I sent to you that addresses this very
issue.
Lars, if you wish to learn more about provisions for animal husbandry in
organic aquaculture, perhaps you would care to review the proposed set of
organic aquaculture standards that I wrote over a year ago. Believe it or
not, I chose to make the very first article in those standards to address
your heart felt and sincere concern for the well being of these animals. I
think we all share that concern to one degree or another. I will send you a
copy if you wish to learn more about it.
Sincerely,
Ted
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:24:55 -0600
Along the lines of alternate plant culture in our aquponics systems,
the group may want to consider water garden plants. Although many water
plants would not survive the presence of hungry vegetarian fish, I know
that Jorg and others have made considerable investigations into
greywater-household water use in the landscape, so water garden plants may
fall into this category of interest.
A book of interest is
Water Garden Plants by David Case. 154 pp 1991. The review says "This book
explains how to establish a bog garden, attract wildlife to your pool and
overcome pests and diseases. This invaluable resource also provides
schematic layouts and a month-to-month calendar of tasks to help
you..."Available from www.amerinursery.com or 800-621-5727.
Frank Holt at DMF Gardens in Des Moine Iowa found his niche producing and
selling shallow and deep-water plants. Through trial and error, he has
learned how to propagate and grow a large variety of aquatic plants. He
wrote an article in the November 98 issue of GMPro Magazine on how to get
started doing that for yourself.
GMPro is at www.greenbeam.com. DMF Gardens is at 2675 Hull Ave., Des
Moines, IA 50317.
Happy Water Gardening.
Ted
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:32:41 EST
Hello Jeff, I would like to just make a suggestion on your packaging your
Lettuce. Refrigeration pulls moisture out of produce,that is why lettuce wilts
if not placed in an air tight container. The ultmate way to keep your lettuce
in good shape would be to vacuum pack it. For the amount of produce you are
talking about,you don't need an elaborate or expensive system,I have seen them
advertized for around 39.95. They don't pull enough vacuum to pull all the
moisture out of the lettuce,just the air out of the bag,as soon as you open
the bag the produce will perk right back up,your lettuce would have twice the
shelf life,it would decrease the size of the package,which means you could get
more bags to the box. Not only do the boxes protect the produce from
damage,they will block light out. Try this experiment.1. Take four pieces of
lettuce2.Place one in a ziplock bag,seal the bag except for one corner,suck as
much air out of the bag as you can,seal that last corner while you are sucking
the air out.3.Put another piece in another bag,but don't suck the air out,just
seal it.4. Repeat this step,but leave the bag open.5.Take the last piece,bag
it ,suck the air out,seal it,and place it in a light proof container.6. Place
all the bags in about the same location in the refrigerator,and observe the
changes,and compare.
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| Message 10 |
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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:49:06 -0600
At 07:43 AM 3/10/99 -0700, Jeff wrote:
>Thanks Adriana, I didn't mean vented but "breathable". I have a
>paticular large order coming up (25lbs). It will take about my total
>current production to fill it. Your idea of a plastic lined box is a
>good one. Still, I wonder what the California mixed greens people use?
>They quote prices in 3 pound packages.
Jeff - there are sources (books, trade magazines such as "The Packer") in
the trade that will tell you more about standard packaging for your crops.
We had very good luck, however, it visiting directly with the produce
broker. We were able to question products, packaging, frequency of
delivery, and any other topic we wanted to discuss; as well as having the
opportunity to see their warehouse and actually look at the various produce
items in their "just arrived" condition.
I'd have to say all in all, even though it's a 4 hour drive each way for us,
that that was time well spent as far as understanding the actual system better.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:37:47 EST
Greetings,I would just like to apologize to everyone on this list for creating
any controversies,however it hasn't been all bad,there has been quite a debate
going on here,between Lars and Ted, some people would label one as an Left
Wing EXtremist,and the other as an Right Wing Extremist.Well it takes two
wings to fly.The trick here is balance,and compatibilty,you cannot put one
eagle wing on a canary and expect him to fly.You can take a chicken and clip
the feathers on one wing and he can't fly out of the pen,UNTIL his feathers
GROW BACK To the right size.Corporations and Enviromentalists have both made,
and will continue to make mistakes, if we can air our differences without the
Ph level getting too high.We can all see this aquaponic bird fly. Just think
it could be like a Humming bird,beautiful to look at,fly in every
direction,very efficient,and I've never heard anyone say they hated a
Hummingbird.Thanks from Kenny the Profound Ninny.
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:16:37 -0500
> the grass to grow is Vetiver.
> > > Now, you can go take on the Sahara, the Negev, and the Outback. Or plant
> > > some erosion control plants
This is very interesting. Not only can you help the environment,
you can make money at it too. For a few months I've been trying
to track down some information about an aqaponics or hydroponic
greenhouse on the west side of the Florida panhandle which was
reported to be doing a thriving business growing onions. When I
finally located an extension agent who knew of them he told me
that he heard that they had given up onions and was growing
grasses for reversing dune erosion. What an interesting niche.
Do you suppose they grow in fresh water or salt water?
I will continue to research this operation with the hopes of
visiting them. Given the large number of eroding beaches, those
of us in coastal areas may be able to tap into this market.
Adriana
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| Message 13 |
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Subject: lettuce packaging and weighing
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:27:10 -0500
Jeff,
I got my customer to show me the packaging that he is currently
receiving his greens in. It is from a big California supplier,
Earthbound Farms which is distributed to all of our restaurants
and in our grocery chains in 4 - 8 oz. cellophane packages.
The box is 20" x13 x 6.5" with vents and handholds and lined with
a thin plastic bag. This is the size for 3#. The box is made by
Weyerhaeuser in Salinas, Ca. I spoke with a guy from
Weyerhaeuser and he would be happy to sell me a truckload and
game me the name of some local distributors who might be able to
supply me.
I'm still studying the whole packaging issue to see what will
make the most sensed for me. In the interim I'm using boxes of a
similar size from a local supplier but with no vent holes, etc.
Have looked into the issue of a scale? I'm having trouble
finding something that is "legal for trade" that costs less than
$300. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Adriana
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| Message 14 |
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Subject: Vacuum packing lettuce
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:29:38 -0500
For the amount of produce you are
> talking about,you don't need an elaborate or expensive system,I have seen them
> advertized for around 39.95. They don't pull enough vacuum to pull all the
> moisture out of the lettuce,just the air out of the bag,as soon as you open
> the bag the produce will perk right back up,your lettuce would have twice the
> shelf life,it would decrease the size of the package,which means you could get
> more bags to the box.
Ken, where did you see this advertised? I was under the
impression that for packaging equipment it would cost a lot
more. Are you thinking of those household vacuum sealer things
from QVC?
Adriana
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| Message 15 |
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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:49:20 -0600
Hi Paula,
Could you share some of your thoughts on packaging? Ten years ago a lot of
people were putting their greens in breathable cellophane bags. I notice
that when I get a vacuumed package of lettuce it looks real nice. However,
once it is opened it has to be used immediatly because it goes bad fast.
Vacuuming bags also compacks it into a hard pack. The hard pack is easy to
bruse but you won't see the brused parts until the bag is opened. Some
packers inject nitrogen gas into the bags to diplace the oxygen.
If anyone is interested in a packing machine, Call 217-359-1010(Pre-Pack
Machinery Inc.) They can also fill you in on the latest packaging trends.
Pre-Pack also leases machines. They are well built machines, I designed the
air system they are using.
Best regards
Dale Robinson
prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net
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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:07:45 -0700 (MST)
You said: Ten years ago a lot of people were putting their greens in
breathable cellophane bags.
_________________________________________________________
Are stores still using cellophane bags, since these cellulose-based bags
would be far more environmentally responsible than plastic
(petroleum-based) bags? If yes, that is encouraging. Jorg ostrowski
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| Message 17 |
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Subject: Re: lettuce packaging and weighing
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:01:26 -0600
Check around at grocery stores, particularly the smaller, mom & pop
ones. Most have converted to scanners and may have their old scales
stuck away in a back corner. I picked one up for $75. If you intend to
sell product by weight, the scales should be periodically inspected and
certified by the dept. of weights and measures.
Gordon
Adriana Gutierrez wrote:
> Have looked into the issue of a scale? I'm having trouble
> finding something that is "legal for trade" that costs less than
> $300. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Adriana
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| Message 18 |
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:17:14 -0600
Interesting idea Ted, but I don't quite follow the tube concept. Are these
tubes used to protect the tree once it's planted outdoors or is it some sort of
rooting container? I've seen translucent plastic tubes, up to 5 feet tall,
placed around tree seedlings which act as a sort of greenhouse and accelerate
growth but they tend to make the tree spindly and weak and must be raised
slightly in the fall to allow the tree to harden off before cold weather
otherwise they suffer frost damage. It sounds like you're describing something
different though. Why are they laid down horizontally?
I have sucessfully rooted cuttings from Autumn Olive trees, leguminous
shrubs which I interplant with black walnuts. Just take a 6" softwood cutting
and stick it in the gravel. These trees are also good for erosion control and
wildlife cover.
Gordon
Ted Ground wrote:
> > Many of us talk about aquaponics as a means of food production.
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
> > I would like the group to consider the implications of plant nursery
> culture.
> > Aquaponic systems could be used as tree, grasses, and other landscape
> > plant/native vegetation nursery systems for the purpose of reforestation,
> > soil erosion programs, and other forms of ecosystem restoration.
> >
> > I once read about an Australian fellow named Rolly Carrol who used tree
> > tubes to establish trees and stabilize areas which have been mined for
> sand
> > and aggregate materials. The tubes are split PVC, about 0.75 to 1 meter
> > long. He figured that if a young tree had very deep roots and very few
> > leaves, it stood a greater chance of surviving in his rehabilitation
> > efforts of these loose sandy soils, compared with conventional tree
> > seedling methods. Apparently it worked well.
> >
> > I recall Tom and Paula reporting good success with rooting trees by
> simply
> > plunging a tree stem in their aquaponics gravel bed, which has had me
> > thinking about this for some time. In that vein, I envision aquaponics
> > systems as devoted nursery systems for such tree tubes or grass tubes,
> etc.
> > Imagine 2 to 3 foot cardboard or paper fiber tubes similiar to Rolly's
> PVC
> > tubes, lying down across the gravel bed of an aquaponics system. Picture
> > them lying on this rectangular bed like enchiladas tucked neatly into a
> > cassarole dish, if you must. It helps me. Wait a few months until the
> root
> > systems are well established.
> >
> > Now, you can go take on the Sahara, the Negev, and the Outback. Or plant
> > some erosion control plants in your local watershed drainage basin,
> > riperian zones. Do it for your ranch, your township, or your parish,
> your
> > and your great great grandchildren. Or make your suburban lawn a bit more
> > forest-like and invite your Bowling Team or the Ladies Auxillary of the
> > Lodge over for cocktails and appetizers.
> >
> > For inspiration along these lines,
> >
> > Case Studies in Environmental Hope. by Peter Newman, Simon Neville, and
> > Louise Duxbury, Editors. from E.P.A. Support Services 2nd Floor, 1 Mount
> > Street Perth, WA 6000, Australia.
> >
> > Environmental Restoration. John J. Berger Editor. 1990 298 pp. Island
> > Press P.O. Box 7, Covelo, CA 95428 800-828-1302.
> >
> > The Man Who Planted Trees Jean Giono 1985 51pp. frm Chelsea Green
> > Publishing Co. P.O. Box 130, Route 113 Post Mills, VT 05058 800 445-6638
> > The Man Who Planted Trees Video (VHS) from CBC Home Video P.O. Box 6440
> > Stantion A Montreal QC H3C3L4, Canada, 514-597-4040
> >
> > Society for Ecological Restoration & Management University of Wisconsin
> > Arboretum, 1207 Seminole Highway Madison, WI 53711 608 263 7889
> >
> > Plant Conservation Journal The Center for Plant Conservation 125 The
> > Arborway, Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 617-524 6988.
> >
> > Wetlands Research Update Journal free from United States Environmental
> > Protection Agency Corvallis Environmental Research Laboratory 200
> Southwest
> > 35th Street, Corvallis, OR 97333
> >
> > You might get ADM or some other big corporate neighbors in your community
> > to help fund such a restoration or habitat enhancement project in your
> > location by contacting The Wildlife Habitat Enhancement Council This
> > organization is a cooperative venture between some very large U.S.
> > corporations and some very mainline conservation groups.They restore
> > corporate landholdings, enhance wildlife habitat, and get their photo
> > opportunites to appear green and charitable. After all, with all the
> > countless sports utility vehicles ravaging every last vestige of
> > wilderness, there will be an increased demand for that kind of 4 wheel
> > drive terrain to ravage.- And after a while, where would you shoot the
> > commericials? Supply and demand, you know. Gotta keep the customer
> > satisfied.
> >
> > Contact Wildlife Habitat Enhancement Council 1010 Wayne Avenue Suite 210,
> > Silver Spring, MD 20910 301 588-8994.
> >
> > Don't Worry. Be Happy.
> >
> > Ted.
> >
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| Message 19 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:19:19 -0600
Mnay water plants have an emerse phase in nature and can be sucessfully grown
in the gravel rather than in the water. I've had good luck with hygrophila
(actually an aquarium plant) and acorus.
Gordon
Ted Ground wrote:
> Along the lines of alternate plant culture in our aquponics systems,
> the group may want to consider water garden plants. Although many water
> plants would not survive the presence of hungry vegetarian fish, I know
> that Jorg and others have made considerable investigations into
> greywater-household water use in the landscape, so water garden plants may
> fall into this category of interest.
>
> A book of interest is
>
> Water Garden Plants by David Case. 154 pp 1991. The review says "This book
> explains how to establish a bog garden, attract wildlife to your pool and
> overcome pests and diseases. This invaluable resource also provides
> schematic layouts and a month-to-month calendar of tasks to help
> you..."Available from www.amerinursery.com or 800-621-5727.
>
> Frank Holt at DMF Gardens in Des Moine Iowa found his niche producing and
> selling shallow and deep-water plants. Through trial and error, he has
> learned how to propagate and grow a large variety of aquatic plants. He
> wrote an article in the November 98 issue of GMPro Magazine on how to get
> started doing that for yourself.
> GMPro is at www.greenbeam.com. DMF Gardens is at 2675 Hull Ave., Des
> Moines, IA 50317.
>
> Happy Water Gardening.
>
> Ted
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| Message 20 |
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Subject: Re: Graywate /Wetlands/ EcoEngineering
From: jilli and lars
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:48:48 -0800
Ted -
The other day I recieved the contructed wetlands design manual from
the EPA. Good document for anyone interested in dealing with sewage.
Now I'll _almost_ feel like i'm getting my money's worth when I pay my
taxes this April (hey...wouldn't it be nice if we could individually decide
specifically where our taxes actually went, like by checking boxes on our tax
forms?)...
thanks for that tip.
lars
------------------------------
Ted Ground wrote:
> Jorg,
>
> Here are some useful references related to using graywater on the landscape
>
> Here are some related resources:
>
> Constructed Wetlands (and Aquatic Plant Systems for Municipal Wastewater
> Treatment- EPA Design Manual) 1988. 83 pp. EPA /625/1-88/022. Free. EPA
> Publications & Information Center P.O. Box 42419, Cincinnati, OH 45242.
> phone 513 569-7597.
>
> Ted.
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| Message 21 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
From: jilli and lars
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:50:31 -0800
To second ted's notion of expanding the range of aquaponics: I think
perhaps one of the least explored areas of use of aquaponical techniques is
the breeding and raising of tropical fish (especially rarities) for sale as
pets.
Many tropical fish are finicky, requiring very specific water
conditions to live and espcially to breed. I think the use of aquaponics and
similar techniques will make it simpler to recreate a specific biotope that a
specific fish from that biotope would need to thrive. The plants grown
hydroponically should be from the same region as the fish, tying the whole
system together, and creating a second commodity in ornamental plants.
Additionally, as many tropical fish are rather small creatures, a
comfortable environment can be created for them in limited spaces. This offers
a real 'desktop' aquaponic potential for city or even apartment dwellers, as
well as people who don't eat fish. I would also imagine that the profit might
be attractive...
lars fields
Ted Ground wrote:
> Along the lines of alternate plant culture in our aquponics systems,
> the group may want to consider water garden plants. Although many water
> plants would not survive the presence of hungry vegetarian fish, I know
> that Jorg and others have made considerable investigations into
> greywater-household water use in the landscape, so water garden plants may
> fall into this category of interest.
>
> A book of interest is
>
> Water Garden Plants by David Case. 154 pp 1991. The review says "This book
> explains how to establish a bog garden, attract wildlife to your pool and
> overcome pests and diseases. This invaluable resource also provides
> schematic layouts and a month-to-month calendar of tasks to help
> you..."Available from www.amerinursery.com or 800-621-5727.
>
> Frank Holt at DMF Gardens in Des Moine Iowa found his niche producing and
> selling shallow and deep-water plants. Through trial and error, he has
> learned how to propagate and grow a large variety of aquatic plants. He
> wrote an article in the November 98 issue of GMPro Magazine on how to get
> started doing that for yourself.
> GMPro is at www.greenbeam.com. DMF Gardens is at 2675 Hull Ave., Des
> Moines, IA 50317.
>
> Happy Water Gardening.
>
> Ted
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| Message 22 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
From: Rebecca Nelson
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:22:10 -0800
> This is very interesting. Not only can you help the environment,
> you can make money at it too. For a few months I've been trying
> to track down some information about an aqaponics or hydroponic
> greenhouse on the west side of the Florida panhandle which was
> reported to be doing a thriving business growing onions. When I
> finally located an extension agent who knew of them he told me
> that he heard that they had given up onions and was growing
> grasses for reversing dune erosion. What an interesting niche.
> Do you suppose they grow in fresh water or salt water?
>
> I will continue to research this operation with the hopes of
> visiting them. Given the large number of eroding beaches, those
> of us in coastal areas may be able to tap into this market.
>
> Adriana
Adriana and all,
I believe the operation you are referring to is in Milton, Florida and
run by Dr. John Jovanesion (spelling?). I was there two years ago,
toward the end of the onion experiment, just as he was getting into
growing wetland grasses and pitcher plants. He wasn't ever really doing
a thriving business selling onions. He initially worked on a grant
project to grow Vidalia (wonderfully sweet onions) in hydroponics to
supply them on a year round basis to a growing market. They were
successfully grown in a float system, but I don't beleive it proved to
be cost effective.
Somehow in the process he learned that onions love and will readily
uptake selenium. In a following project he fed the onions very high
concentrations of selenium in the hydroponic nutrient solution which
they readily took up. This created a very bitter onion that was
extreemely high in selenium...a natural, plant based form of selenium.
The onion bulbs had the potential to be dried, ground and formed into
tablets to be sold to the herbal/health food markets as a selenium
supplement.
I beleive his wetland grass culture project is on-going and can find out
for sure if you'd like. My sister works at the NW Florida Aquatic
Preserve and Dr. Jovanesian was supplying them with wetland plants for
restoration last year.
I don't know if you'd actually get in for a tour at Jovanesian's
facility. Since most of his work is grant-based there must be published
reports of his work....maybe at UW Florida/Pensacola where he taught for
awhile.
Hope this helps,
Rebecca
Nelson/Pade Multimedia - Aquaponics Journal - Aquaponics Technology
Center
the source for information on aquaponics, hydroponics and aquaculture
http://www.aquaponics.com phone (209)742-6869 fax (209)742-4402
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| Message 23 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:32:58 -0500
Dale,
What is the packaging principal behind the prepack system and
what does it encompass? For instance can you weigh as you pack?
What is the price range and how big is the foot-print.
Thanks, Adriana
Dale Robinson wrote:
> If anyone is interested in a packing machine, Call 217-359-1010(Pre-Pack
> Machinery Inc.) They can also fill you in on the latest packaging trends.
> Pre-Pack also leases machines. They are well built machines, I designed the
> air system they are using.
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| Message 24 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:40:17 -0500
Thank you Rebecca, I think all of us on the list would be
interested to hear more about this. If your sister can help us
that would be really nice.
Adriana
> I beleive his wetland grass culture project is on-going and can find out
> for sure if you'd like. My sister works at the NW Florida Aquatic
> Preserve and Dr. Jovanesian was supplying them with wetland plants for
> restoration last year.
Sometimes these grant-funded places have to allow tours don't
they?
> I don't know if you'd actually get in for a tour at Jovanesian's
> facility. Since most of his work is grant-based there must be published
> reports of his work....maybe at UW Florida/Pensacola where he taught for
> awhile.
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| Message 25 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Vacuum packing lettuce
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:52:36 EST
In a message dated 3/10/99 1:29:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, gutierrez-
lagatta@home.com writes:
<< Ken, where did you see this advertised? I was under the
impression that for packaging equipment it would cost a lot
more. Are you thinking of those household vacuum sealer things
from QVC?
Adriana >>
HI Adrianna,yes I was thinking of that exact commercial,but also I used to
make Sandwiches for convenience stores and marinas,I investigated vacuum
packaging to Increase the shelf life of my sandwiches,there are even foil
lined packages,cellophane on the outside, vacuum packed that keep out the
light. They claimed you can keep a sandwich for 30 days unrefrigerated! and we
all know what happens to meat if left unrefrigerated.The they I'm referring to
is either the Ga. Dept of Ag. or the U.S.D.A.it was 7 or 8 years ago,when I
read the article I cannot remember which.As far the home job on T.V.,it is a
very simple tool,and for light usage it would probably be fine.If it will keep
meat that long,think how well keep produce. Ken
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| Message 26 |
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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:06:55 EST
In a message dated 3/10/99 1:46:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, prof-
robinson@worldnet.att.net writes:
<< Vacuuming bags also compacks it into a hard pack. The hard pack is easy to
bruse but you won't see the brused parts until the bag is opened. >>
Thats a good point Dale,without the fluff it would be more prone to impact
damage. Ken
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| Message 27 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:45:40 -0600
The pre-pack machine is operated by 2 people. It has an electric weighing
system but has had mechanical scales in the past so they may be able to put
one of those on if you want it. One person feeds the machine with produce
until the proper weight is obtained. He then hits a lever that dumps the
produce into a chamber(the scale bucket closes so another batch can be
loaded) The produce in the chamber is the formed into a bag that the other
person has put on the chute. The machine will pack up to 20 bags a minute.
I hav not worked there for 10 years so the price may have changed a bit.
They were starting at $13,000 for a 1 lb. (Packs up to one lb.) packer.
they do make more automatic machines but I don't know what they are doing
now. If your interested give them a call and have a brochure sent to you.
They also build custom machines such as spinach tumblers(gets the clods
out), three and ten pound pacers.
The Foot print for the one pound machine is about 7 sq. ft. (24" x 42")Comes
on wheels so you can wheel it out of the way when not in use. a one lb.
machine weighs about 250 lbs. I don't know if they have incorperated a
sealer into the machine or not. They are always making improvements.
>Dale,
>What is the packaging principal behind the prepack system and
>what does it encompass? For instance can you weigh as you pack?
>What is the price range and how big is the foot-print.
>
>Thanks, Adriana
>
>Dale Robinson wrote:
>
>> If anyone is interested in a packing machine, Call 217-359-1010(Pre-Pack
>> Machinery Inc.) They can also fill you in on the latest packaging
trends.
>> Pre-Pack also leases machines. They are well built machines, I designed
the
>> air system they are using.
>
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| Message 28 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:18:46 -0600
Gordon wrote:
> Interesting idea Ted, but I don't quite follow the tube concept. Are
these
> tubes used to protect the tree once it's planted outdoors or is it some
sort of
> rooting container?
Gordon, I have not fleshed this out in my mind yet, I just thought we might
do some brainstorming about it.
It has literally been pinging around in my head for quite a while, and I
don't know quite how to articulate it at this point.....This darn right
brain intuitive stuff is meek and introverted as a lamb but plods along
like a turtle racing a wild hair...
But...., yes to both of your questions above, I guess.
I am interested in this long tube thing I suppose for the same reason that
our Australian friend had in it. I am literally imagining this and making
this
all up as I go, but let's see- Excuse me while my corpus callosum feeds the
left hemisphere some neural video data streams.......
Uh, we have arid conditions here in this part of Texas as the chap did in
Australia, so a long, deep tap root would benefit the long term survival
and establishment of tree or landscape plant "seedlings" if such a tap root
could be grown beforehand in the aquaponic greenhouse using the tube as
something that would fill a long, narrow hole when we go to plant the tree
in the landscape....like plugging a small drilling core hole with a living
plant root...Get the picture?...This probably works best in sandy soils
with little or no organic matter? This approach migh Eat the Big Chalupa
if attempted in clay soils, but hey, we are all about much risky business,
here...
The split tube (PVC) or the permeable fiber tube (it could be made of
newspaper or cardboard, or burlap, or something like that)....contains the
tap root, protecting it from light in the greenhouse, and causing it to
grow into a very long, extended, uh, narrow tube. The tube would be filled
with peat moss, vermiculite, perlite, what have you, to permit easy and
extended penetration by the root mass along the inside of the tube....As
the plant grows in the greenhouse, you would keep the leaves trimmed down
enough so that most of the photosynthetic energy is use to build an
extensive tap root through this "root tube"
It has probably occurred to you that the leaves and shoot stems would grow
perpendicular to the roots (at 90 degrees to the roots- straight up) for as
long as you are laying the tube down on the aquaponic gravel bed.. but you
are keeping these leaves trimmed to a minimum...And after you transplant it
in the landscape, the short little plant will straighten up in short
order....Woody plants would likely show a weird little sinusoidal bloop at
the base but that would be just a historical marker...a signature that it
had been grown in the aquaponics nursery.
O.K., so...let's see, in a wetter climate you should not have to bother
with the long tubes, so the plug tray approach would be adequate...so in
that case you would just place the plug trays on top of the gravel, and
just pop out the peat moss root mass plug that had been setting on top of
your aquaponic gravel... and make the transplant in the traditional
fashion...In your climate, Gordon, that would probably be the better way to
approach it...
Signing Off.
Ted.
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| Message 29 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:31:05 -0500
Dale,
I need a packing set-up for a Mom-and-Pop operation, only without
the Pop. In order words a one-person operation and a one-person
budget. But thanks anyhow. When I get to 3 greenhouses instead
of one, maybe.
> The pre-pack machine is operated by 2 people.
> They were starting at $13,000 for a 1 lb.
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| Message 30 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Tropical Fruits for the Greenhouse
From: Axxcited
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:52:06 EST
yes interested in cornucopia book. still avabable ?
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 31 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Way Off Topic was Re: Graywate /Wetlands/ EcoEngineering
From: Mike Miller
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:11:54 -0600
At 17:05 10-03-99 -0600, you wrote:
> Now I'll _almost_ feel like i'm getting my money's worth when I
pay my
>taxes this April (hey...wouldn't it be nice if we could individually decide
>specifically where our taxes actually went, like by checking boxes on our tax
>forms?)...
This reminded me of a little "twist the knife of reality "piece I wrote
once upon a time in a land far away (ie before monica).
1 March 1998
Letters to the Editor
During the latest fight over campaign finance reform, I think the
Republican Leadership in Congress came up with a powerful tool that we, the
citizens, can use to give direction to our elected officials between
election cycles. I'm speaking of the proposed annual permissions from
union members to their elected leaders defining how union funds can be
spent. The parallel between voting union members and their elected leaders
and the United States Voters and their elected Congressional Leaders is
obvious. I propose a similar annual authorization from voters directing
Congress how to spend our tax money.
During this Annual Voter Authorization, AVA for short, the voters would
directly specify what percentage of total revenues Congress would be
allowed to spend in a number of budget areas. The government already
provides a broad outline of expenditure information in the pie chart on the
next to last page of your income tax booklet. With the AVA, taxpayers
would directly "vote" on each expenditure category by filling in a
percentage. These percentages, averaged for all citizens, would provide
Congress with mandatory budget guidelines. After all, it is YOUR money and
YOU have the right to assure it is being spent in accordance with YOUR
VALUES.
The AVA mechanism could be as simple as adding a section to your annual
income tax filing form. People would file their taxes more willingly and
regularly if they had more say in how their money was spent. Besides, tax
time - when you have a heightened appreciation for the value of money -
seems the appropriate time to make these types of decisions.
With the AVA, the specifics of the legislative process would still be the
same. The actual bills would still be written by lobbyists and voted on by
our elected representatives but the share of total revenues allocated to
each broad category would be determined directly by you, the voter. Under
this system, citizens decide if more or less money is spent on education,
the military or the various kinds of social and corporate welfare.
If you want more say in how your hard-earned, tax dollars are spent,
contact your legislators now and support this idea. Remember, the AVA
would bring the fresh breath of grassroots democracy to a money-soiled,
political system. Thank you.
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| Message 32 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
From: "Susanne Machler"
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:12:51 PST
You wrote:
west side of the Florida panhandle which was
reported to be doing a thriving business growing onions. When I
finally located an extension agent who knew of them he told me
that he heard that they had given up onions
Does anyone have any experience groing either onions or escallion,
hydroponically??
Tah, Sue
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Reply-To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:16:37 -0500
> the grass to grow is Vetiver.
> > > Now, you can go take on the Sahara, the Negev, and the Outback. Or
plant
> > > some erosion control plants
This is very interesting. Not only can you help the environment,
you can make money at it too. For a few months I've been trying
to track down some information about an aqaponics or hydroponic
greenhouse on the west side of the Florida panhandle which was
reported to be doing a thriving business growing onions. When I
finally located an extension agent who knew of them he told me
that he heard that they had given up onions and was growing
grasses for reversing dune erosion. What an interesting niche.
Do you suppose they grow in fresh water or salt water?
I will continue to research this operation with the hopes of
visiting them. Given the large number of eroding beaches, those
of us in coastal areas may be able to tap into this market.
Adriana
.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.
| Message 33 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
From: "Donald W. Trotter"
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:30:20 -0800
Adriana et al,
We are working on halophytic sedges which are closely related to onions.
Our system is brackish and the reason for this is to extract salts from
marine water. I have little personal experience with alliums, but I can
attest to good success with relatives of these plants in gravel systems. I
would theorize that perlite systems would be more adaptable to onion
production. The lightwieght substrate will allow for the formation of the
bulbs without hinderance from weighty materials. I estimate that ebb and
flow systems would best nourish this crop. You may need to supplement
sulfur, but I can be sure of that. If Dr.Jim R., Ted, or any of the
regulars have insights here, listen to them.
Donald W. Trotter Ph.D.
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| Message 34 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:16:55 -0600
Pre-pack also makes a small packing table for small opperations like yours.
All they are is a stainless steel table with about 6 inch sides and a chute
in a corner to place a bag over. You could have something like that built
by any sheet metal shop. Request the material to be 16 gage, 308 stainless
steel. A scale can be set up under the chute to check the weights. You
place the produce on the table and rake it into the bags with your hands. I
don't know how much a table costs but it only takes a phone call to find
out.
Best regards
Dale Robinson
prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
|
