Aquaponics Digest - Wed 03/10/99




Message   1: Re: three pound lettuce bags

             from Adriana Gutierrez 

Message   2: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles

             from "Ted Ground" 

Message   3: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

             from "Ted Ground" 

Message   4: Re: three pound lettuce bags

             from Jeff 

Message   5: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles

             from "Wendy Nagurny" 

Message   6: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

             from William Evans 

Message   7: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles

             from "Ted Ground" 

Message   8: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

             from "Ted Ground" 

Message   9: Re: three pound lettuce bags

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message  10: Re: three pound lettuce bags

             from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message  11: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message  12: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

             from Adriana Gutierrez 

Message  13: lettuce packaging and weighing

             from Adriana Gutierrez 

Message  14: Vacuum packing lettuce

             from Adriana Gutierrez 

Message  15: Re: three pound lettuce bags

             from "Dale Robinson" 

Message  16: Re: three pound lettuce bags

             from "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 

Message  17: Re: lettuce packaging and weighing

             from Gordon Watkins 

Message  18: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

             from Gordon Watkins 

Message  19: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

             from Gordon Watkins 

Message  20: Re: Graywate /Wetlands/ EcoEngineering

             from jilli and lars 

Message  21: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

             from jilli and lars 

Message  22: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

             from Rebecca Nelson 

Message  23: Re: three pound lettuce bags

             from Adriana Gutierrez 

Message  24: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

             from Adriana Gutierrez 

Message  25: Re: Vacuum packing lettuce

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message  26: Re: three pound lettuce bags

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message  27: Re: three pound lettuce bags

             from "Dale Robinson" 

Message  28: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

             from "Ted Ground" 

Message  29: Re: three pound lettuce bags

             from Adriana Gutierrez 

Message  30: Re: Tropical Fruits for the Greenhouse

             from Axxcited

Message  31: Way Off Topic was Re: Graywate /Wetlands/ EcoEngineering

             from Mike Miller 

Message  32: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

             from "Susanne Machler" 

Message  33: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

             from "Donald W. Trotter" 

Message  34: Re: three pound lettuce bags

             from "Dale Robinson" 

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| Message 1                                                           |

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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags

From:    Adriana Gutierrez 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 05:50:57 -0500

Jeff,

Why do you want it vented?  I know that when I've left a bowl of

mesclun mix open in the refrigerator for one or two hours it has

gotten limp and dehydrated due to the air flow in thr fridge.

I have a catalop from Pak-Sel 1-800-635-2247.  They have

cellophane and polypropylene and polyethylene bags.  They

manufacture in custom sizes to.  The largest cellophane bag that

they make is  11.75" x 19.75" which doesn't look large enough. 

They can custom make a breathable cellophane bag but I know of

people getting good results with the reular (not breathable) bag

from them.

Once you get to the 3# capacity I would think it better to use

boxes with a bag in side, because if you get an order for more

than one 3-pound package they can be stacked in a cooler without

damaging the goods.

Adriana

> Does any one know a source for three pound bags (vented) for mixed

> lettuces? This is the standard size for most mixed greens coming out of

> California. I thought monte packaging would be a source but they only

> have 1 pound size.

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| Message 2                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles

From:    "Ted Ground" 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:39:44 -0600

Lars,

Thanks for replying. 

I will have to file that one. 

Take care now.

Ted.

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| Message 3                                                           |

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Subject: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

From:    "Ted Ground" 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:28:46 -0600

> Many of us talk about aquaponics as a means of food production.

> I would like the group to consider the implications of plant nursery

culture.

> Aquaponic systems could be used as tree, grasses, and other landscape

> plant/native vegetation nursery systems for the purpose of reforestation,

> soil erosion programs, and other forms of ecosystem restoration.

> 

> I once read about an Australian fellow named Rolly Carrol who used tree

> tubes to establish trees and stabilize areas which have been mined for

sand

> and aggregate materials.  The tubes are split PVC, about 0.75 to 1 meter

> long.  He figured that if a young tree had very deep roots and very few

> leaves, it stood a greater chance of surviving in his rehabilitation

> efforts of these loose sandy soils, compared with conventional tree

> seedling methods.  Apparently it worked well.

> 

> I recall Tom and Paula reporting good success with rooting trees by

simply

> plunging a tree stem in their aquaponics gravel bed, which has had me

> thinking about this for some time.  In that vein, I envision aquaponics

> systems as devoted nursery systems for such tree tubes or grass tubes,

etc.

>  Imagine 2 to 3 foot cardboard or paper fiber tubes similiar to Rolly's

PVC

> tubes, lying down across the gravel bed of an aquaponics system.  Picture

> them lying on this rectangular bed like enchiladas tucked neatly into a

> cassarole dish, if you must.  It helps me. Wait a few months until the

root

> systems are well established.  

> 

> Now, you can go take on the Sahara, the Negev, and the Outback. Or plant

> some erosion control plants in your local watershed drainage basin,

> riperian zones.  Do it for your ranch, your township, or your parish,

your

> and your great great grandchildren. Or make your suburban lawn a bit more

> forest-like and invite your Bowling Team or the Ladies Auxillary of the

> Lodge over for cocktails and appetizers.

> 

> For inspiration along these lines,

> 

> Case Studies in Environmental Hope. by Peter Newman, Simon Neville, and

> Louise Duxbury, Editors. from E.P.A. Support Services 2nd Floor, 1 Mount

> Street Perth, WA 6000, Australia.

> 

> Environmental Restoration.  John J. Berger Editor. 1990 298 pp. Island

> Press P.O. Box 7, Covelo, CA 95428 800-828-1302.

> 

> The Man Who Planted Trees Jean Giono 1985 51pp. frm Chelsea Green

> Publishing Co. P.O. Box 130, Route 113 Post Mills, VT 05058 800 445-6638

> The Man Who Planted Trees Video (VHS) from CBC Home Video P.O. Box 6440

> Stantion A Montreal QC H3C3L4, Canada, 514-597-4040

> 

> Society for Ecological Restoration & Management  University of Wisconsin

> Arboretum, 1207 Seminole Highway Madison, WI 53711 608 263 7889

> 

> Plant Conservation Journal The Center for Plant Conservation 125 The

> Arborway, Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 617-524 6988.

> 

> Wetlands Research Update Journal free from United States Environmental

> Protection Agency Corvallis Environmental Research Laboratory 200

Southwest

> 35th Street, Corvallis, OR 97333

> 

> You might get ADM or some other big corporate neighbors in your community

> to help fund such a restoration or habitat enhancement project in your

> location by contacting The Wildlife Habitat Enhancement Council  This

> organization is a cooperative venture between some very large U.S.

> corporations and some very mainline conservation groups.They restore

> corporate landholdings, enhance wildlife habitat, and get their photo

> opportunites to appear green and charitable.  After all, with all the

> countless sports utility vehicles ravaging every last vestige of

> wilderness, there will be an increased demand for that kind of 4 wheel

> drive terrain to ravage.- And after a while, where would you shoot the

> commericials?  Supply and demand, you know.  Gotta keep the customer

> satisfied.  

> 

> Contact Wildlife Habitat Enhancement Council 1010 Wayne Avenue Suite 210,

> Silver Spring, MD 20910 301 588-8994.

> 

> Don't Worry.  Be Happy.

> 

> Ted.

>  

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| Message 4                                                           |

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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags

From:    Jeff 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:43:38 -0700

Adriana Gutierrez wrote:

> 

> 

> I have a catalop from Pak-Sel 1-800-635-2247.  They have

> cellophane and polypropylene and polyethylene bags.  They

> manufacture in custom sizes to.  The largest cellophane bag that

> they make is  11.75" x 19.75" which doesn't look large enough.

> They can custom make a breathable cellophane bag but I know of

> people getting good results with the reular (not breathable) bag

> from them.

> 

> Once you get to the 3# capacity I would think it better to use

> boxes with a bag in side, because if you get an order for more

> than one 3-pound package they can be stacked in a cooler without

> damaging the goods.

> 

> Adriana

Thanks Adriana, I didn't mean vented but "breathable". I have a

paticular large order coming up (25lbs). It will take about my total

current production to fill it. Your idea of a plastic lined box is a

good one. Still, I wonder what the California mixed greens people use?

They quote prices in 3 pound packages.

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| Message 5                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles

From:    "Wendy Nagurny" 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:13:10 -0500

Lars,

>

>        In reference to stocking rates, feeding, etc. -  No, I don't

>believe fish are _always_ comfortable in nature. But species evolve in

>concert with their environment, and all species are adapted to react

>favorably to and thrive in condtions that they find _optimal_. I think

>these _optimal_ conditions should be the environment that aquaculturists

>should strive to re-create in the captive domestic environment.

This IS what aquaculturists strive for.  Fish, whether sentient or not, have

a remarkable way to covey to their keeper that things are not to their

liking in their little world: they get sick and die.  When the temperature,

pH, hardness, ammonia, nitrate, nitrate, etc. levels are outside what THEY

consider acceptable conditions or they are subjected to undue stress, they

will succumb every bug and opportunistic nasty that comes along.  If they

find their living conditions totally intolerable, they just die.  In a

business venture, sickies and floaters are money losers.

Often what we perceive as unacceptable may actually be preferable to the

fish.  For instance, schooling fish are much happier when kept "crowded" if

the filtration system can keep up with the waste load.  If too much space

exists between the individual and another object (the wall or another fish),

they become stressed.  If genuine overcrowding condition do occur, nature

will thin the population.  Some fish prefer to live in dark murky waters

(what we would call "dirty").  These fish will become stressed if the range

of vision is too great (water is too clean).  Preferable conditions can also

change as the fish matures.

I feel that there is no governing body or document that can adequately

address the preferred living conditions of all the species we will try to

keep.  In fact to try to do so would be a disservice to the fish it is

trying

to protect, as there will always be the individual strain or hybrid that

will fall outside the species norm.  The best thing a document can do to

insure the "happiness" of the fish is to ban the prophylactic  use of

antibiotics  and other "band-aid" chemicals meant to prolong the life of the

improperly kept or cover up the result of excessive stress, and make the

therapeutic use of these so inconvenient (i.e. long holding periods after

use)

that the animals must be kept in optimum conditions to be profitable.  The

proposed organic standards already do that.

>        With respect to factory farming techniques, I think many

>companies are crossing over that line in seeking to gain an _optimal_

>profit. Cutting off chicken beaks and rigidly immoblizing hormone-fed

>mutant cattle does cross that line, in my opinion. I dare you to find

>anyone on the list who could visit one of these dairy farms without

>feeling _extremely_ uncomfortable. Optimal conditions/Optimal profit -

>it's a balance, for sure - and i understand profit will be a motive for

>many people engaged in business. But which way should we tip the scales?

>Maybe I can't define cruelty, but I know it when i see it.

I also find many of the common practices of factory farming cruel.  The

animals find them unsatisfactory also or antibiotic laced feeds would not be

the norm at these places.  Once again, it is better to eliminate the

band-aids than micro-manage conditions.

Wendy

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| Message 6                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

From:    William Evans 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:29:27 -0800

the grass  to grow is Vetiver.

T

> > leaves, it stood a greater chance of surviving in his rehabilitation

> > efforts of these loose sandy soils,

> >

> > Now, you can go take on the Sahara, the Negev, and the Outback. Or plant

> > some erosion control plants

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| Message 7                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles

From:    "Ted Ground" 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:30:33 -0600

Wendy,

Thanks for the input.  I hope that you found something worthwhile in the

copy of the organic standards that I sent to you that addresses this very

issue.

Lars, if you wish to learn more about provisions for animal husbandry in

organic aquaculture, perhaps you would care to review the proposed set of

organic aquaculture standards that I wrote over a year ago.  Believe it or

not, I chose to make the very first article in those standards to address

your heart felt and sincere concern for the well being of these animals.  I

think we all share that concern to one degree or another. I will send you a

copy if you wish to learn more about it.

Sincerely,

Ted

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| Message 8                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

From:    "Ted Ground" 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:24:55 -0600

Along the lines of alternate plant culture in our aquponics systems,

the group may want to consider water garden plants.  Although many water

plants would not survive the presence of hungry vegetarian fish, I know

that Jorg and others have made considerable investigations into

greywater-household water use in the landscape, so water garden plants may

fall into this category of interest.

A book of interest is 

Water Garden Plants by David Case. 154 pp 1991. The review says "This book

explains how to establish a bog garden, attract wildlife to your pool and

overcome pests and diseases. This invaluable resource also provides

schematic layouts and a month-to-month calendar of tasks to help

you..."Available from www.amerinursery.com or 800-621-5727.

Frank Holt at DMF Gardens in Des Moine Iowa found his niche producing and

selling shallow and deep-water plants. Through trial and error, he has

learned how to propagate and grow a large variety of aquatic plants.  He

wrote an article in the November 98 issue of GMPro Magazine on how to get

started doing that for yourself.

GMPro is at www.greenbeam.com.  DMF Gardens is at 2675 Hull Ave., Des

Moines, IA 50317.

Happy Water Gardening.

Ted

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| Message 9                                                           |

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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:32:41 EST

Hello Jeff, I would like to just make a suggestion on your packaging your

Lettuce. Refrigeration pulls moisture out of produce,that is why lettuce wilts

if not placed in an air tight container. The ultmate way to keep your lettuce

in good shape would be to vacuum pack it. For the amount of produce you are

talking about,you don't need an elaborate or expensive system,I have seen them

advertized for around 39.95. They don't pull enough vacuum to pull all the

moisture out of the lettuce,just the air out of the bag,as soon as you open

the bag the produce will perk right back up,your lettuce would have twice the

shelf life,it would decrease the size of the package,which means you could get

more bags to the box. Not only do the boxes protect the produce from

damage,they will block light out. Try this experiment.1. Take four pieces of

lettuce2.Place one in a ziplock bag,seal the bag except for one corner,suck as

much air out of the bag as you can,seal that last corner while you are sucking

the air out.3.Put another piece in another bag,but don't suck the air out,just

seal it.4. Repeat this step,but leave the bag open.5.Take the last piece,bag

it ,suck the air out,seal it,and place it in a light proof container.6. Place

all the bags in about the same location in the refrigerator,and observe the

changes,and compare.

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| Message 10                                                          |

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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags

From:    S & S Aqua Farm 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:49:06 -0600

At 07:43 AM 3/10/99 -0700, Jeff wrote:

>Thanks Adriana, I didn't mean vented but "breathable". I have a

>paticular large order coming up (25lbs). It will take about my total

>current production to fill it. Your idea of a plastic lined box is a

>good one. Still, I wonder what the California mixed greens people use?

>They quote prices in 3 pound packages.

Jeff - there are sources (books, trade magazines such as "The Packer") in

the trade that will tell you more about standard packaging for your crops.

We had very good luck, however, it visiting directly with the produce

broker.  We were able to question products, packaging, frequency of

delivery, and any other topic we wanted to discuss; as well as having the

opportunity to see their warehouse and actually look at the various produce

items in their "just arrived" condition.  

I'd have to say all in all, even though it's a 4 hour drive each way for us,

that that was time well spent as far as understanding the actual system better.

Paula

S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124

Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

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| Message 11                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:37:47 EST

Greetings,I would just like to apologize to everyone on this list for creating

any controversies,however it hasn't been all bad,there has been quite a debate

going on here,between Lars and Ted, some people would label one as an Left

Wing EXtremist,and the other as an Right Wing Extremist.Well it takes two

wings to fly.The trick here is balance,and compatibilty,you cannot put one

eagle wing on a canary and expect him to fly.You can take a chicken and clip

the feathers on one wing and he can't fly out of the pen,UNTIL his feathers

GROW BACK To the right size.Corporations and Enviromentalists have both made,

and will continue to make mistakes, if we can air our differences without the

Ph level getting too high.We can all see this aquaponic bird fly. Just think

it could be like a Humming bird,beautiful to look at,fly in every

direction,very efficient,and I've never heard anyone say they hated a

Hummingbird.Thanks from Kenny the Profound  Ninny. 

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| Message 12                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

From:    Adriana Gutierrez 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:16:37 -0500

> the grass  to grow is Vetiver.

> > > Now, you can go take on the Sahara, the Negev, and the Outback. Or plant

> > > some erosion control plants

This is very interesting.  Not only can you help the environment,

you can make money at it too.  For a few months I've been trying

to track down some information about an aqaponics or hydroponic

greenhouse on the west side of the Florida panhandle which was

reported to be doing a thriving business growing onions.  When I

finally located an extension agent who  knew of them he told me

that he heard that they had given up onions and was growing

grasses for reversing dune erosion.  What an interesting niche. 

Do you suppose they grow in fresh water or salt water?  

I will continue to research this operation with the hopes of

visiting them.  Given the large number of eroding beaches, those

of us in coastal areas may be able to tap into this market.

Adriana

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| Message 13                                                          |

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Subject: lettuce packaging and weighing

From:    Adriana Gutierrez 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:27:10 -0500

Jeff,

I got my customer to show me the packaging that he is currently

receiving his greens in.  It is from a big California supplier,

Earthbound Farms which is distributed to all of our restaurants

and in our grocery chains in 4 - 8 oz. cellophane packages.

The box is 20" x13 x 6.5" with vents and handholds and lined with

a thin plastic bag. This is the size for 3#.  The box is made by

Weyerhaeuser in Salinas, Ca.  I spoke with a guy from

Weyerhaeuser and he would be happy to sell me a truckload and

game me the name of some local distributors who might be able to

supply me.

I'm still studying the whole packaging issue to see what will

make the most sensed for me.  In the interim I'm using boxes of a

similar size from a local supplier but with no vent holes, etc.

Have looked into the issue of a scale?  I'm having trouble

finding something that is "legal for trade" that costs less than

$300.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Adriana

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| Message 14                                                          |

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Subject: Vacuum packing lettuce

From:    Adriana Gutierrez 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:29:38 -0500

For the amount of produce you are

> talking about,you don't need an elaborate or expensive system,I have seen them

> advertized for around 39.95. They don't pull enough vacuum to pull all the

> moisture out of the lettuce,just the air out of the bag,as soon as you open

> the bag the produce will perk right back up,your lettuce would have twice the

> shelf life,it would decrease the size of the package,which means you could get

> more bags to the box.

Ken,  where did you see this advertised? I was under the

impression that for packaging equipment it would cost a lot

more.  Are you thinking of those household vacuum sealer things

from QVC?

Adriana

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| Message 15                                                          |

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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags

From:    "Dale Robinson" 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:49:20 -0600

Hi Paula,

Could you share some of your thoughts on packaging?  Ten years ago a lot of

people were putting their greens in breathable cellophane bags.  I notice

that when I get a vacuumed package of lettuce it looks real nice.  However,

once it is opened it has to be used immediatly because it goes bad fast.

Vacuuming bags also compacks it into a hard pack.  The hard pack is easy to

bruse but you won't see the brused parts until the bag is opened.  Some

packers inject nitrogen gas into the bags to diplace the oxygen.

If anyone is interested in a packing machine, Call 217-359-1010(Pre-Pack

Machinery Inc.)  They can also fill you in on the latest packaging trends.

Pre-Pack also leases machines.  They are well built machines, I designed the

air system they are using.

Best regards

Dale Robinson

prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net



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| Message 16                                                          |

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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags

From:    "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:07:45 -0700 (MST)

You said: Ten years ago a lot of people were putting their greens in

breathable cellophane bags. 

_________________________________________________________

Are stores still using cellophane bags, since these cellulose-based bags

would be far more environmentally responsible than plastic

(petroleum-based) bags? If yes, that is encouraging. Jorg ostrowski

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| Message 17                                                          |

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Subject: Re: lettuce packaging and weighing

From:    Gordon Watkins 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:01:26 -0600

Check around at grocery stores, particularly the smaller, mom & pop

ones. Most have converted to scanners and may have their old scales

stuck away in a back corner. I picked one up for $75. If you intend to

sell product by weight, the scales should be periodically inspected and

certified by the  dept. of weights and measures.

                                Gordon

Adriana Gutierrez wrote:

>  Have looked into the issue of a scale?  I'm having trouble

> finding something that is "legal for trade" that costs less than

> $300.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

>

> Adriana

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| Message 18                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

From:    Gordon Watkins 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:17:14 -0600

Interesting idea Ted, but I don't quite follow the tube concept. Are these

tubes used to protect the tree once it's planted outdoors or is it some sort of

rooting container? I've seen translucent plastic tubes, up to 5 feet tall,

placed around tree seedlings which act as a sort of greenhouse and accelerate

growth but they tend to make the tree spindly and weak and must be raised

slightly in the fall to allow the tree to harden off before cold weather

otherwise they suffer frost damage. It sounds like you're describing something

different though. Why are they laid down horizontally?

    I have sucessfully rooted cuttings from Autumn Olive trees, leguminous

shrubs which I interplant with black walnuts. Just take a 6" softwood cutting

and stick it in the gravel. These trees are also good for erosion control and

wildlife cover.

                        Gordon

Ted Ground wrote:

> > Many of us talk about aquaponics as a means of food production.

S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124

Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

> > I would like the group to consider the implications of plant nursery

> culture.

> > Aquaponic systems could be used as tree, grasses, and other landscape

> > plant/native vegetation nursery systems for the purpose of reforestation,

> > soil erosion programs, and other forms of ecosystem restoration.

> >

> > I once read about an Australian fellow named Rolly Carrol who used tree

> > tubes to establish trees and stabilize areas which have been mined for

> sand

> > and aggregate materials.  The tubes are split PVC, about 0.75 to 1 meter

> > long.  He figured that if a young tree had very deep roots and very few

> > leaves, it stood a greater chance of surviving in his rehabilitation

> > efforts of these loose sandy soils, compared with conventional tree

> > seedling methods.  Apparently it worked well.

> >

> > I recall Tom and Paula reporting good success with rooting trees by

> simply

> > plunging a tree stem in their aquaponics gravel bed, which has had me

> > thinking about this for some time.  In that vein, I envision aquaponics

> > systems as devoted nursery systems for such tree tubes or grass tubes,

> etc.

> >  Imagine 2 to 3 foot cardboard or paper fiber tubes similiar to Rolly's

> PVC

> > tubes, lying down across the gravel bed of an aquaponics system.  Picture

> > them lying on this rectangular bed like enchiladas tucked neatly into a

> > cassarole dish, if you must.  It helps me. Wait a few months until the

> root

> > systems are well established.

> >

> > Now, you can go take on the Sahara, the Negev, and the Outback. Or plant

> > some erosion control plants in your local watershed drainage basin,

> > riperian zones.  Do it for your ranch, your township, or your parish,

> your

> > and your great great grandchildren. Or make your suburban lawn a bit more

> > forest-like and invite your Bowling Team or the Ladies Auxillary of the

> > Lodge over for cocktails and appetizers.

> >

> > For inspiration along these lines,

> >

> > Case Studies in Environmental Hope. by Peter Newman, Simon Neville, and

> > Louise Duxbury, Editors. from E.P.A. Support Services 2nd Floor, 1 Mount

> > Street Perth, WA 6000, Australia.

> >

> > Environmental Restoration.  John J. Berger Editor. 1990 298 pp. Island

> > Press P.O. Box 7, Covelo, CA 95428 800-828-1302.

> >

> > The Man Who Planted Trees Jean Giono 1985 51pp. frm Chelsea Green

> > Publishing Co. P.O. Box 130, Route 113 Post Mills, VT 05058 800 445-6638

> > The Man Who Planted Trees Video (VHS) from CBC Home Video P.O. Box 6440

> > Stantion A Montreal QC H3C3L4, Canada, 514-597-4040

> >

> > Society for Ecological Restoration & Management  University of Wisconsin

> > Arboretum, 1207 Seminole Highway Madison, WI 53711 608 263 7889

> >

> > Plant Conservation Journal The Center for Plant Conservation 125 The

> > Arborway, Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 617-524 6988.

> >

> > Wetlands Research Update Journal free from United States Environmental

> > Protection Agency Corvallis Environmental Research Laboratory 200

> Southwest

> > 35th Street, Corvallis, OR 97333

> >

> > You might get ADM or some other big corporate neighbors in your community

> > to help fund such a restoration or habitat enhancement project in your

> > location by contacting The Wildlife Habitat Enhancement Council  This

> > organization is a cooperative venture between some very large U.S.

> > corporations and some very mainline conservation groups.They restore

> > corporate landholdings, enhance wildlife habitat, and get their photo

> > opportunites to appear green and charitable.  After all, with all the

> > countless sports utility vehicles ravaging every last vestige of

> > wilderness, there will be an increased demand for that kind of 4 wheel

> > drive terrain to ravage.- And after a while, where would you shoot the

> > commericials?  Supply and demand, you know.  Gotta keep the customer

> > satisfied.

> >

> > Contact Wildlife Habitat Enhancement Council 1010 Wayne Avenue Suite 210,

> > Silver Spring, MD 20910 301 588-8994.

> >

> > Don't Worry.  Be Happy.

> >

> > Ted.

> >

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| Message 19                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

From:    Gordon Watkins 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:19:19 -0600

Mnay water plants have an emerse phase in nature and can be sucessfully grown

in the gravel rather than in the water. I've had good luck with hygrophila

(actually an aquarium plant) and acorus.

                                            Gordon

Ted Ground wrote:

> Along the lines of alternate plant culture in our aquponics systems,

> the group may want to consider water garden plants.  Although many water

> plants would not survive the presence of hungry vegetarian fish, I know

> that Jorg and others have made considerable investigations into

> greywater-household water use in the landscape, so water garden plants may

> fall into this category of interest.

>

> A book of interest is

>

> Water Garden Plants by David Case. 154 pp 1991. The review says "This book

> explains how to establish a bog garden, attract wildlife to your pool and

> overcome pests and diseases. This invaluable resource also provides

> schematic layouts and a month-to-month calendar of tasks to help

> you..."Available from www.amerinursery.com or 800-621-5727.

>

> Frank Holt at DMF Gardens in Des Moine Iowa found his niche producing and

> selling shallow and deep-water plants. Through trial and error, he has

> learned how to propagate and grow a large variety of aquatic plants.  He

> wrote an article in the November 98 issue of GMPro Magazine on how to get

> started doing that for yourself.

> GMPro is at www.greenbeam.com.  DMF Gardens is at 2675 Hull Ave., Des

> Moines, IA 50317.

>

> Happy Water Gardening.

>

> Ted

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| Message 20                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: Graywate /Wetlands/ EcoEngineering

From:    jilli and lars 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:48:48 -0800

Ted -

            The other day I recieved the contructed wetlands design manual from

the EPA. Good document for anyone interested in dealing with sewage.

        Now I'll _almost_ feel like i'm getting my money's worth when I pay my

taxes this April (hey...wouldn't it be nice if we could individually decide

specifically where our taxes actually went, like by checking boxes on our tax

forms?)...

thanks for that tip.

lars

------------------------------

Ted Ground wrote:

> Jorg,

>

> Here are some useful references related to using graywater on the landscape

>



> Here are some related resources:

>

> Constructed Wetlands (and Aquatic Plant Systems for Municipal Wastewater

> Treatment-  EPA Design Manual)  1988. 83 pp. EPA /625/1-88/022. Free. EPA

> Publications & Information Center P.O. Box 42419, Cincinnati, OH 45242.

> phone 513 569-7597.

>

> Ted.

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| Message 21                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

From:    jilli and lars 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:50:31 -0800

        To second ted's notion of expanding the range of aquaponics: I think

perhaps one of the least explored areas of use of aquaponical techniques is

the breeding and raising of tropical fish (especially rarities) for sale as

pets.

        Many tropical fish are finicky, requiring very specific water

conditions to live and espcially to breed. I think the use of aquaponics and

similar techniques will make it simpler to recreate a specific biotope that a

specific fish from that biotope would need to thrive. The plants grown

hydroponically should be from the same region as the fish, tying the whole

system together, and creating a second commodity in ornamental plants.

        Additionally, as many tropical fish are rather small creatures, a

comfortable environment can be created for them in limited spaces. This offers

a real 'desktop' aquaponic potential for city or even apartment dwellers, as

well as people who don't eat fish. I would also imagine that the profit might

be attractive...

lars fields

Ted Ground wrote:

> Along the lines of alternate plant culture in our aquponics systems,

> the group may want to consider water garden plants.  Although many water

> plants would not survive the presence of hungry vegetarian fish, I know

> that Jorg and others have made considerable investigations into

> greywater-household water use in the landscape, so water garden plants may

> fall into this category of interest.

>

> A book of interest is

>

> Water Garden Plants by David Case. 154 pp 1991. The review says "This book

> explains how to establish a bog garden, attract wildlife to your pool and

> overcome pests and diseases. This invaluable resource also provides

> schematic layouts and a month-to-month calendar of tasks to help

> you..."Available from www.amerinursery.com or 800-621-5727.

>

> Frank Holt at DMF Gardens in Des Moine Iowa found his niche producing and

> selling shallow and deep-water plants. Through trial and error, he has

> learned how to propagate and grow a large variety of aquatic plants.  He

> wrote an article in the November 98 issue of GMPro Magazine on how to get

> started doing that for yourself.

> GMPro is at www.greenbeam.com.  DMF Gardens is at 2675 Hull Ave., Des

> Moines, IA 50317.

>

> Happy Water Gardening.

>

> Ted

.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.

| Message 22                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

From:    Rebecca Nelson 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:22:10 -0800

> This is very interesting.  Not only can you help the environment,

> you can make money at it too.  For a few months I've been trying

> to track down some information about an aqaponics or hydroponic

> greenhouse on the west side of the Florida panhandle which was

> reported to be doing a thriving business growing onions.  When I

> finally located an extension agent who  knew of them he told me

> that he heard that they had given up onions and was growing

> grasses for reversing dune erosion.  What an interesting niche.

> Do you suppose they grow in fresh water or salt water?

> 

> I will continue to research this operation with the hopes of

> visiting them.  Given the large number of eroding beaches, those

> of us in coastal areas may be able to tap into this market.

> 

> Adriana

Adriana and all,

I believe the operation you are referring to is in Milton, Florida and

run by Dr. John Jovanesion (spelling?).  I was there two years ago,

toward the end of the onion experiment, just as he was getting into

growing wetland grasses and pitcher plants.  He wasn't ever really doing

a thriving business selling onions.  He initially worked on a grant

project to grow Vidalia (wonderfully sweet onions) in hydroponics to

supply them on a year round basis to a growing market.  They were

successfully grown in a float system, but I don't beleive it proved to

be cost effective.  

Somehow in the process he learned that onions love and will readily

uptake selenium.  In a following project he fed the onions very high

concentrations of selenium in the hydroponic nutrient solution which

they readily took up.  This created a very bitter onion that was

extreemely high in selenium...a natural, plant based form of selenium. 

The onion bulbs had the potential to be dried, ground and formed into

tablets to be sold to the herbal/health food markets as a selenium

supplement.  

I beleive his wetland grass culture project is on-going and can find out

for sure if you'd like.  My sister works at the NW Florida Aquatic

Preserve and Dr. Jovanesian was supplying them with wetland plants for

restoration last year.  

I don't know if you'd actually get in for a tour at Jovanesian's

facility.  Since most of his work is grant-based there must be published

reports of his work....maybe at UW Florida/Pensacola where he taught for

awhile.

Hope this helps,

Rebecca 

Nelson/Pade Multimedia - Aquaponics Journal - Aquaponics Technology

Center

the source for information on aquaponics, hydroponics and aquaculture

http://www.aquaponics.com   phone (209)742-6869   fax (209)742-4402

.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.

| Message 23                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags

From:    Adriana Gutierrez 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:32:58 -0500

Dale,

What is the packaging principal behind the prepack system and

what does it encompass?  For instance can you weigh as you pack? 

What is the price range and how big is the foot-print.

Thanks, Adriana

Dale Robinson wrote:

> If anyone is interested in a packing machine, Call 217-359-1010(Pre-Pack

> Machinery Inc.)  They can also fill you in on the latest packaging trends.

> Pre-Pack also leases machines.  They are well built machines, I designed the

> air system they are using.

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| Message 24                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

From:    Adriana Gutierrez 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:40:17 -0500

Thank you Rebecca, I think all of us on the list would be

interested to hear more about this.  If your sister can help us

that would be really nice.

Adriana

> I beleive his wetland grass culture project is on-going and can find out

> for sure if you'd like.  My sister works at the NW Florida Aquatic

> Preserve and Dr. Jovanesian was supplying them with wetland plants for

> restoration last year.

Sometimes these grant-funded places have to allow tours don't

they?

> I don't know if you'd actually get in for a tour at Jovanesian's

> facility.  Since most of his work is grant-based there must be published

> reports of his work....maybe at UW Florida/Pensacola where he taught for

> awhile.

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| Message 25                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: Vacuum packing lettuce

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:52:36 EST

In a message dated 3/10/99 1:29:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, gutierrez-

lagatta@home.com writes:

<< Ken,  where did you see this advertised? I was under the

 impression that for packaging equipment it would cost a lot

 more.  Are you thinking of those household vacuum sealer things

 from QVC?

 

 Adriana >>

HI Adrianna,yes I was thinking of that exact commercial,but also I used to

make Sandwiches for convenience stores and marinas,I investigated vacuum

packaging to Increase the shelf life of my sandwiches,there are even foil

lined packages,cellophane on the outside, vacuum packed that keep out the

light. They claimed you can keep a sandwich for 30 days unrefrigerated! and we

all know what happens to meat if left unrefrigerated.The they I'm referring to

is either the Ga. Dept of Ag. or the U.S.D.A.it was 7 or 8 years ago,when I

read the article I cannot remember which.As far the home job on T.V.,it is a

very simple tool,and for light usage it would probably be fine.If it will keep

meat that long,think how well keep produce. Ken

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| Message 26                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:06:55 EST

In a message dated 3/10/99 1:46:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, prof-

robinson@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< Vacuuming bags also compacks it into a hard pack.  The hard pack is easy to

 bruse but you won't see the brused parts until the bag is opened.   >>

Thats a good point Dale,without the fluff it would be more prone to impact

damage. Ken

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| Message 27                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags

From:    "Dale Robinson" 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:45:40 -0600

The pre-pack machine is operated by 2 people.  It has an electric weighing

system but has had mechanical scales in the past so they may be able to put

one of those on if you want it.  One person feeds the machine with produce

until the proper weight is obtained.   He then hits a lever that dumps the

produce into a chamber(the scale bucket closes so another batch can be

loaded) The produce in the chamber is the formed into a bag that the other

person has put on the chute.  The machine will pack up to 20 bags a minute.

I hav not worked there for 10 years so the price may have changed a bit.

They were starting at $13,000 for a 1 lb. (Packs up to one lb.) packer.

they do make more automatic machines but I don't know what they are doing

now. If your interested give them a call and have a brochure sent to you.

They also build custom machines such as spinach tumblers(gets the clods

out), three and ten pound pacers.

The Foot print for the one pound machine is about 7 sq. ft. (24" x 42")Comes

on wheels so you can wheel it out of the way when not in use.  a one lb.

machine weighs about 250 lbs.  I don't know if they have incorperated a

sealer into the machine or not.  They are always making improvements.

>Dale,

>What is the packaging principal behind the prepack system and

>what does it encompass?  For instance can you weigh as you pack?

>What is the price range and how big is the foot-print.

>

>Thanks, Adriana

>

>Dale Robinson wrote:

>

>> If anyone is interested in a packing machine, Call 217-359-1010(Pre-Pack

>> Machinery Inc.)  They can also fill you in on the latest packaging

trends.

>> Pre-Pack also leases machines.  They are well built machines, I designed

the

>> air system they are using.

>

.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.

| Message 28                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

From:    "Ted Ground" 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:18:46 -0600

Gordon wrote:

> Interesting idea Ted, but I don't quite follow the tube concept. Are

these

> tubes used to protect the tree once it's planted outdoors or is it some

sort of

> rooting container? 

Gordon, I have not fleshed this out in my mind yet, I just thought we might

do some brainstorming about it. 

It has literally been pinging around in my head for quite a while, and I

don't know quite how to articulate it at this point.....This darn right

brain intuitive stuff is meek and introverted as a lamb but plods along

like a turtle racing a wild hair...

But...., yes to both of your questions above, I guess.  

I am interested in this long tube thing I suppose for the same reason that

our Australian friend had in it.  I am literally imagining this and making

this

all up as I go, but let's see- Excuse me while my corpus callosum feeds the

left hemisphere some neural video data streams.......

Uh, we have arid conditions here in this part of Texas as the chap did in

Australia, so a long, deep tap root would benefit the long term survival

and establishment of tree or landscape plant "seedlings" if such a tap root

could be grown beforehand in the aquaponic greenhouse using the tube as

something that would fill a long, narrow hole when we go to plant the tree

in the landscape....like plugging a small drilling core hole with a living

plant root...Get the picture?...This probably works best in sandy soils

with little or no organic matter?  This approach migh Eat the Big Chalupa

if attempted in clay soils, but hey, we are all about much risky business,

here...

The split tube (PVC) or the permeable fiber tube (it could be made of

newspaper or cardboard, or burlap, or something like that)....contains the

tap root, protecting it from light in the greenhouse, and causing it to

grow into a very long, extended, uh, narrow tube.  The tube would be filled

with peat moss, vermiculite, perlite, what have you, to permit easy and

extended penetration by the root mass along the inside of the tube....As

the plant grows in the greenhouse, you would keep the leaves trimmed down

enough so that most of the photosynthetic energy is use to build an

extensive tap root through this "root tube" 

It has probably occurred to you that the leaves and shoot stems would grow

perpendicular to the roots (at 90 degrees to the roots- straight up) for as

long as you are laying the tube down on the aquaponic gravel bed.. but you

are keeping these leaves trimmed to a minimum...And after you transplant it

in the landscape, the short little plant will straighten up in short

order....Woody plants would likely show a weird little sinusoidal bloop at

the base but that would be just a historical marker...a signature that it

had been grown in the aquaponics nursery.

O.K., so...let's see, in a wetter climate you should not have to bother

with the long tubes, so the plug tray approach would be adequate...so in

that case you would just place the plug trays on top of the gravel, and

just pop out the peat moss root mass plug that had been setting on top of

your aquaponic gravel... and make the transplant in the traditional

fashion...In your climate, Gordon, that would probably be the better way to

approach it...

Signing Off.

Ted.

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| Message 29                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags

From:    Adriana Gutierrez 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:31:05 -0500

Dale,

I need a packing set-up for a Mom-and-Pop operation, only without

the Pop.  In order words a one-person operation and a one-person

budget.  But thanks anyhow.  When I get to 3 greenhouses instead

of one, maybe.

> The pre-pack machine is operated by 2 people.

> They were starting at $13,000 for a 1 lb.

.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.

| Message 30                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: Tropical Fruits for the Greenhouse

From:    Axxcited

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:52:06 EST

yes interested in cornucopia book. still avabable ?

.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.

| Message 31                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Way Off Topic was Re: Graywate /Wetlands/ EcoEngineering

From:    Mike Miller 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:11:54 -0600

At 17:05 10-03-99 -0600, you wrote:

>        Now I'll _almost_ feel like i'm getting my money's worth when I

pay my

>taxes this April (hey...wouldn't it be nice if we could individually decide

>specifically where our taxes actually went, like by checking boxes on our tax

>forms?)...

This reminded me of a little "twist the knife of reality "piece I wrote

once upon a time in a land far away (ie before monica).

1 March 1998

 

Letters to the Editor                                   

During the latest fight over campaign finance reform, I think the

Republican Leadership in Congress came up with a powerful tool that we, the

citizens, can use to give direction to our elected officials between

election cycles.  I'm speaking of the proposed annual permissions from

union members to their elected leaders defining how union funds can be

spent.  The parallel between voting union members and their elected leaders

and the United States Voters and their elected Congressional Leaders is

obvious.  I propose a similar annual authorization from voters directing

Congress how to spend our tax money.  

During this Annual Voter Authorization, AVA for short, the voters would

directly specify what percentage of total revenues Congress would be

allowed to spend in a number of budget areas.  The government already

provides a broad outline of expenditure information in the pie chart on the

next to last page of your income tax booklet.  With the AVA, taxpayers

would directly "vote" on each expenditure category by filling in a

percentage.  These percentages, averaged for all citizens, would  provide

Congress with mandatory budget guidelines.  After all, it is YOUR money and

YOU have the right to assure it is being spent in accordance with YOUR

VALUES.  

The AVA mechanism could be as simple as adding a section to your annual

income tax filing form.  People would file their taxes more willingly and

regularly if they had more say in how their money was spent.  Besides, tax

time - when you have a heightened appreciation for the value of money -

seems the appropriate time to make these types of decisions.

With the AVA, the specifics of the legislative process would still be the

same.  The actual bills would still be written by lobbyists and voted on by

our elected representatives but the share of total revenues allocated to

each broad category would be determined directly by you, the voter.   Under

this system, citizens decide if more or less money is spent on education,

the military or the various kinds of social and corporate welfare.

If you want more say in how your hard-earned, tax dollars are spent,

contact your legislators now and support this idea.  Remember, the AVA

would bring the fresh breath of grassroots democracy to a money-soiled,

political system.   Thank you.

.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.

| Message 32                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

From:    "Susanne Machler" 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:12:51 PST

You wrote:

 west side of the Florida panhandle which was

reported to be doing a thriving business growing onions.  When I

finally located an extension agent who  knew of them he told me

that he heard that they had given up onions 

Does anyone have any experience groing either onions or escallion, 

hydroponically??

Tah, Sue

From: Adriana Gutierrez 

Reply-To: aquaponics@townsqr.com

To: aquaponics@townsqr.com

Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:16:37 -0500

> the grass  to grow is Vetiver.

> > > Now, you can go take on the Sahara, the Negev, and the Outback. Or 

plant

> > > some erosion control plants

This is very interesting.  Not only can you help the environment,

you can make money at it too.  For a few months I've been trying

to track down some information about an aqaponics or hydroponic

greenhouse on the west side of the Florida panhandle which was

reported to be doing a thriving business growing onions.  When I

finally located an extension agent who  knew of them he told me

that he heard that they had given up onions and was growing

grasses for reversing dune erosion.  What an interesting niche. 

Do you suppose they grow in fresh water or salt water?  

I will continue to research this operation with the hopes of

visiting them.  Given the large number of eroding beaches, those

of us in coastal areas may be able to tap into this market.

Adriana

.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.

| Message 33                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.

From:    "Donald W. Trotter" 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:30:20 -0800

Adriana et al,

We are working on halophytic sedges which are closely related to onions.

Our system is brackish and the reason for this is to extract salts from

marine water. I have little personal experience with alliums, but I can

attest to good success with relatives of these plants in gravel systems. I

would theorize that perlite systems would be more adaptable to onion

production. The lightwieght substrate will allow for the formation of the

bulbs without hinderance from weighty materials. I estimate that ebb and

flow systems would best nourish this crop. You may need to supplement

sulfur, but I can be sure of that. If  Dr.Jim R., Ted, or any of the

regulars have insights here, listen to them.

Donald W. Trotter Ph.D.

.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------.

| Message 34                                                          |

'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'

Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags

From:    "Dale Robinson" 

Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:16:55 -0600

Pre-pack also makes a small packing table for small opperations like yours.

All they are is a stainless steel table with about 6 inch sides and a chute

in a corner to place a bag over.  You could have something like that built

by any sheet metal shop. Request the material to be 16 gage, 308 stainless

steel.  A scale can be set up under the chute to check the weights.  You

place the produce on the table and rake it into the bags with your hands.  I

don't know how much a table costs but it only takes a phone call to find

out.

Best regards

Dale Robinson

prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net



S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124

Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/



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