Aquaponics Digest - Fri 03/12/99
Message 1: Re:Big Fish
from Dave Miller
Message 2: Re: RV: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
from Dave Miller
Message 3: Re: Other mail lists
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 4: Re: Other mail lists
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 5: Re: Specs
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 6: Re: Other mail lists
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 7: Re: three pound lettuce bags
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 8: RE: Big Fish
from Alejandro Gallardo Valencia
Message 9: Re: Specs
from "Ted Ground"
Message 10: Re: Specs
from Gordon Watkins
Message 11: Re: PH question
from Gordon Watkins
Message 12: Re: PH question
from "Joe Insana"
Message 13: Re: three pound lettuce bags
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 14: Re: PH question
from jilli and lars
Message 15: Re: Specs
from jilli and lars
Message 16: Re: PH question
from Adriana Gutierrez
Message 17: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
from jilli and lars
Message 18: Re: three pound lettuce bags
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 19: Re: PH question
from "Joe Insana"
Message 20: Re: Subduing nitrates and nitrites
from "Ted Ground"
Message 21: Re: Specs
from doelle
Message 22: Re: Specs
from doelle
Message 23: Re: Specs
from doelle
Message 24: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles
from "Paul Anthony"
Message 25: Re: Specs
from jilli and lars
Message 26: antibiotics and iris's
from jilli and lars
Message 27: Re: Mr. Pauls Aquaponic Fish Sticks
from KLOTTTRUE
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re:Big Fish
From: Dave Miller
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:23:38 -0500
Alejandro,
Muchichimas gracias para tratar a entender mi. Yo no quiero
representarme como loco, solo que yo tengo un interes en ideas
diferentes. Por lo que no como carne ni pescado, (con excepcio'n) yo
deseo que puede entender o respectar las diferencias mias.
Many thanks for trying to understand me. I don't wish to represent
myself as strange, only as one with different ideas and interests.
Because I rarely eat meat or fish I hope (appreciate) that you can
respect or understand my differences.
Abrigado
--
Dave
_______________________________________
«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
A "green" home remodeler
A father of 2 cockatiels
An organic farmer
A veggie drummer/keyboardist
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Re: RV: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
From: Dave Miller
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:28:28 -0500
I really enjoyed learning how beach cactus plums and poison ivy actually
hold the duns together
--
Dave
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: Other mail lists
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:28:23 EST
In a message dated 3/11/99 11:32:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bgracia@rtripp.com writes:
<< Some time ago, someone posted an address for a mail list on worms. Does
anyone know the address?
Brian >>
http:www.wormman.com/redworms.htm Heres one Brian. Ken
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| Message 4 |
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Subject: Re: Other mail lists
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:28:49 EST
In a message dated 3/11/99 11:32:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bgracia@rtripp.com writes:
<< Some time ago, someone posted an address for a mail list on worms. Does
anyone know the address?
Brian >>
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Subject: Re: Specs
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 06:21:27 EST
Gentlemen,I hate to be one,but isn't this what Lars was trying to say the
other day,when he was talking about bacteria exchanging information,or
material,when you rebuffed him Horst,and Ted I think when Lars made the
comparision of the Mega corporations to the Nazi's,he might have been
referring to things,like this Transgenic fish,wasn't Hitler trying to build a
Superhuman race thru Genetic engineering. I don't have the education,that any
of you have,I can't read the label on a bag of feed,and discern what should be
there and what should not,how will I know if the fingerlings I purchase,have
been Genetically altered,or are resistant to antibiotics. I know from just
observing life,that crowding,creates an enviroment for sickness to
multiply,for instance daycare centers,big cities,refugee camps,just to name a
few,I know fish school in the wild,but I didn't know nature produces natural
antibiotics,until I read this conversation between Ted and Horst,could Lars be
right when he suggests growing plants,and setting up an ecosystem to match the
fish? Do the plants produce something that the keeps the fish healthy? I don't
believe there is anyone out there who can do it better than nature,but you
people have a much better chance than I do. The other day I expressed that my
concern for using natural foods was for taste and economics. But since reading
this posting on superbugs and hormones,I must include safety.Should I have my
own brood stock? I don't want to be responsible for making anyone sick. If you
people will get together and come up with a recipe for a safe fish food,and
send it to me,there are several feed mills around here,Large ones and small
ones,there is even one in my Brother in laws family,I will go to all of them
and see if they can make it for us. And if you can come up with some kind of a
ball park figure on the amount of feed to run it would be good, ( CO-OP )
Maybe,money talks. Ken
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Subject: Re: Other mail lists
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:06:34 -0600
Worm Forum
>Some time ago, someone posted an address for a mail list on worms. Does
>anyone know the address?
>
>Brian
Best regards
Dale Robinson
prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:18:46 -0600
Sounds like a good idea. Keep in mind that it needs to be accessable enough
to get a bag on it easily. The bottom of the bowl needs to be able to hold
onto a bag too. Perhaps another smaller bowl(one the bag will fit around)
with the bottom removed and attached bottom to bottom to the big bowl would
work.
Best regards
Dale Robinson
prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: RE: Big Fish
From: Alejandro Gallardo Valencia
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:03:05 -0600
Dave:
It's great that you chose to avoid meat. Personally I'm very =
carnivorous, but I consider a well balanced vegetarian meal quite =
desirable. It's just that I've encoutered some people that become real =
fanatics to the point of taking vegetarism to almost religious extremes =
(the kind that try to get everybody to become vegetarians). That gets =
me a little deffensive. Above all, you don't sound "loco", you sound =
convinced on a principle. Thats good.
Best regards.
Alejandro
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: Specs
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:15:21 -0600
>chromosome or into a plasmid" but this is just basic modern microbiology.
> You are correct and interpret the article ok. However, if there were no
resistant >bacteria, this would not occur.
I think it is important to note that the mechanisms of genetic transfer
listed by Levy exists for any given bacterial gene, whether or not
antibiotic resistance is that gene. These mechanisms have occurred in
Nature for eons. Humanity did not create these mechanisms of inter and
intra genera and species genetic transfer. By the same token, the
mechanisms could act in nature in the opposite way, that is the gene for
antibiotic resistance can be replaced with yet another normal gene which
allows the bacterial cell wall to be acted upon by the antibiotic, thus
transforming the bacterium back into one which is no longer antibiotic
resistant.
>
> This is well known to us microbiologists. If you transfer a gene and ask
the bug to >do more work, but keep the energy metabolism the same, one asks
for more work >for the same amount of energy available. Thus growth will
suffer and this is the >reason for failing in the competition for survivval
of the fittest. Darwin's Law.
That could well be in this case....that certainly could have played a
factor in it's being outcompeted...however, it seems also probable that the
shear numbers and the overall environmental fitness of the native bacterium
combined to outcompete the introduced engineered species
> >On the other hand, we read in The Ecology of Soil Bacteria, an old book
I
> >have dusted off just recently, that inter-generic transformation between
> >Rhizobium and Agrobacterium (2 different genera, not just 2 different
> >species) was reported way back in 1953, before they were tampering
> >artificial DNA recombinations...so the implication is that certain
traits
> >(genetic material) can cross genus boundaries in Nature...
>
> Of course, Ted. That is what evolution is all about, but it takes a long
time and does not effect necessarily our food.
Well, the study period of the paper I referred to did not span geological
eras. Two different genera were introduced in test plots, grown, and
isolated after being exposed to one another. The result was that genetic
traits had been transferred...I will have to get a reprint of that paper to
check it out in more detail.
> Sure, we can learn a lot of nature, but unfortunately many think they can
do better >than nature. We can improve and speed up the process, but this
would not require >genetic transfer.
>
I think the point was that genetic transfer across genera lines can take
place in Nature without any effort on our part. An interesting question is
how frequently this occurs, and then, after it occurs, what selection
pressures and competition factors are present or persistant enough to
result in the further propagation of that particular gene's presence in its
newest "host" organism.
>
> Ted, this is exactly the reason why bacteria get resistant. They adapt in
nature to >antibiotics. But antibiotic production in nature does not occur
on a regular basis, as >it is a 'secondary' product. One has to manipulate
the medium of bacterial growth in >order to get good antibiotic production.
You will never find an overproduction of >antibiotics in soil and thus will
rarely find natural antibiotic resistancy in soil >bacteria. This is often
used as an excuse rather than a fact.
>
I did not say that fungi in natural soils "overproduce" antibiotics. I
disagree that antibiotics production in nature does not occur on a regular
basis...I think we are discussing the importance of different amounts,
rather than the fact of it's occurance in nature...I dont think you can
prove to me that in an acre of topsoil, that some of the fungal species are
not producing some kind of antibiotic at some point in their growth and
decay cycle...Especially since it is reasonable to assume that there are
antibiotics out there that we have yet to discover..so how could you know
that they aren't being produced on a regular basis if we dont know what
they are yet?
> This has also been scientifically proven. Ever heard about the mad cow
disease ?? >and its effect on humans ??
Yes, I know about reports of Spongiform Encephalitis and the proposed
mechanism of "infection" by prions- non living proteins that somehow induce
cells to produce more copies of that kind of prion.....The prions serve no
useful function for the cell, but clutter up things rather badly.... I have
heard reports that there is nothing in the known universe can denature
these proteins- heat, composting, ultraviolet light, microwaves, crystal
power, etc., and so they will persist like that robot in the Terminator
movies...I strongly doubt those kinds of claims, and I suspect they are
propagated by the vegetarian and animal rights activists....At the same
time I am very interested in learning more about S.E. and the biochemistry
of these prions and I know enough about it to be concerned about it. This
mad cow thing is an interesting topic, but I think it departs somewhat from
the main gist of what we are talking about here...
> Anyhow Ted, as you said before, caution is the mother of all things. I
simply >believe that people can make as much money as they like, but please
not on cost >of health.
Horst, you knave! Don't plant your quotes in my mouth!
I would never say anything of the sort, (I got a big chuckle out of that
one).
As we know, it is not caution but risk that is the mother of all life.
Without risk, there would be no mothers. Or, put in another way Risk is a
Mother!
Cheers,
Ted.
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Subject: Re: Specs
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:17:22 -0600
The easiest way to avoid unwanted feed additives (in the US at least) is to
read the label. While it is possible to purchase medicated feed at the local
feed store, particularly for chickens, pigs, and cows, it is prominently
labeled as such and costs quite a bit more.
The real problem is not with these local feed sources but with the big
multi-national, vertically integrated "family farms" like Tysons and Cargill
(ADM?) who supply their growers with a proprietary feed, the ingredients being
a closely guarded secret. I have had lab analysis done on Tysons poultry litter
and found it to have toxic levels of copper, cadmium and arsenic, all
deliberate feed additives and all heavy metals which accumulate in the soil.
These were just the elements I specifically tested for. I didn't check for
antibiotics or other meds, which I assumed to be present, because they
bio-degrade rather quickly in the soil and are not as troublesome as the
metals. Who knows (including the FDA) what else could be found if one had the
resources to check?
Gordon
Ted Ground wrote:
> In the US, antibiotic additives are not allowed in fish feed manufacturing.
> That is, they are NOT ALLOWED as a prophylatic (disease preventative
> agent) in fish feeds for aquacultured animals grown for human consumption.
> Only 2 antibiotics are allowed in aquaculture (by the US Food and Drug
> Administration) that I know of, and then only for therapeutic purposes
> (once disease has already broken out in the aquaculture system and the
> treatment is to be short term and limited)- those are Terramyacin
> (oxytetracycline) and Romet. The aquaculture operations that I am aware
> of- especially fish hatcheries where the fish are not going immediately to
> human consumption, but will be stocked into waters as fingerlings- isolate
> the diseased animals - usually these are the big, very valuable brood stock
> animals in the hatchery, that are in limited numbers compared to the
> millions of fish fry or fingerlings- These treated animals are isolated
> from the unaffected animals and the antibiotics are introduced either by
> injection or by a temporary isolated water bath treatment with the
> antibiotic in suspension or in solution, rather than incorporating it into
> the feed...If anyone has more insight into that please let me know, since
> the FDA is slow on many things, but nevertheless they can make changes in
> restrictions and regulations at a whim...so, this is to the best of my
> knowledge.
>
> I could be mistaken, but the only antibiotic additive in animal feeds in
> the US that I know of is in some formulations of chicken feed, and that
> would be erythromyacin...Anyone more familiar with that please let us
> know.... I really don't know what is done with dairy or cattle feeds, but
> to the best of my knowledge, antibiotic additives to feeds for the purpose
> of prophylatic intentions (continuous antibiotic treatment whether the
> animal has a disease or not) are not the rule but the exception with
> respect to animal feed formulations in agriculture
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Subject: Re: PH question
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:30:30 -0600
Joe,
Describe your system a little more: what is the source and pH of your
makeup water? What kind of media are you using for plant production? How
long has your system been in operation? Do you see any symptoms of nutrient
deficiencies/toxicities in your plants (chlorosis, etc)? What plants and
fish are you growing?
pH regulation, particularly lowering, with chemicals is tricky business
and is notoriously unstable and requires careful monitoring and fine tuning.
Others correct me if I'm wrong, but as aquaponic systems age they become
more acidic due to accumulation of organic matter and production of humic
acids. If your rooting media is some sort of reactive rock, like limestone,
that could be part of your problem, necessitating replacement with more
inert media. If your system is relatively new, your fish are growing well
with low mortality, and your plants grow well and show no symtoms of
distress, I would leave it alone and monitor it for awhile before taking any
drastic measures.
Gordon
Joe Insana wrote:
> I have a small aquaponics system set up and my PH is at 8.2 which I
> understand is not good for the plants but at this point my little
> fishies seem to love it. How do I lower the PH (what product) and where
> do I buy it from? Thanks
>
> Joe Insana
> New London, OH
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Subject: Re: PH question
From: "Joe Insana"
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:14:23 EST
Gordon,
Thank you for responding,
>Describe your system a little more: what is the source and pH of your
make-up water?
My system is an NFT set-up like a flood and drain system with 4" pipe
and a 50 gallon fish tank. This set-up is for home schooling and for my
pleasure as well. My make-up water is from a small RO system and the PH
is around 6.
>What kind of media are you using for plant production?
Leca-ton rock, an item I purchased from Crop King and rockwool starter
cubes in cups. I did rinse and boil the rocks before use.
>How long has your system been in operation?
I started it about 40 days ago with city water and have used RO for
make-up since.
>Do you see any symptoms of nutrient deficiencies/toxicities in your
plants (chlorosis, etc)?
As I am fairly new at this what deficiencies I am learning as I go along
but what I see are a few of my plants have thin bases.
>What plants and fish are you growing?
The plants are a mix of Lettuces, broccoli,sweet peas and cauliflower.
The fish I just received 3 days ago are Nilotica Tilapia from Living
Waters.
>If your system is relatively new, your fish are growing well with low
mortality, and your plants grow well and show no symptoms of distress, I
would leave it alone and monitor it for awhile before taking any drastic
measures.
Yes the system is new and I will wait to see how things work out before
I do anything.
**But if it comes down to having to lower my pH or raising it what do I
use? As I understand it the products for Hydroponics are not to be used
in Aquaculture and vice versa.
Thanks
Joe Insana
New London, OH
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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:02:29 -0500
Dale,
It sounds like a plastic trash can with the bottom cut out would
make a good chute. The bag would fit over the neck of the can
which would hold it in place until it is full
Dale Robinson wrote:
>
> Sounds like a good idea. Keep in mind that it needs to be accessable enough
> to get a bag on it easily. The bottom of the bowl needs to be able to hold
> onto a bag too. Perhaps another smaller bowl(one the bag will fit around)
> with the bottom removed and attached bottom to bottom to the big bowl would
> work.
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Subject: Re: PH question
From: jilli and lars
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:21:32 -0800
hi joe -
What is your hydroponic substrate? Do you have any substrate in the tanks?
I don't think you should be looking for a 'product' to lower your pH, you
should try to set up your system so it self-regulates as much as possible.
Additives merely correct the problem temporarily and make your system
'dependent' on that additive.
lars fields
Joe Insana wrote:
> I have a small aquaponics system set up and my PH is at 8.2 which I
> understand is not good for the plants but at this point my little
> fishies seem to love it. How do I lower the PH (what product) and where
> do I buy it from? Thanks
>
> Joe Insana
> New London, OH
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Subject: Re: Specs
From: jilli and lars
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:58:21 -0800
thanks ken -
KLOTTTRUE wrote:
> Gentlemen,I hate to be one,but isn't this what Lars was trying to say the
> other day,when he was talking about bacteria exchanging information,or
> material,when you rebuffed him Horst,and Ted I think when Lars made the
> comparision of the Mega corporations to the Nazi's,he might have been
> referring to things,like this Transgenic fish,wasn't Hitler trying to build a
> Superhuman race thru Genetic engineering. I don't have the education,that any
> of you have,I can't read the label on a bag of feed,and discern what should be
> there and what should not,how will I know if the fingerlings I purchase,have
> been Genetically altered,or are resistant to antibiotics. I know from just
> observing life,that crowding,creates an enviroment for sickness to
> multiply,for instance daycare centers,big cities,refugee camps,just to name a
> few,I know fish school in the wild,but I didn't know nature produces natural
> antibiotics,until I read this conversation between Ted and Horst,could Lars be
> right when he suggests growing plants,and setting up an ecosystem to match the
> fish? Do the plants produce something that the keeps the fish healthy?
I have heard, though from somewhat anecdotal sources, that an iris
variety (and possibly the iris family) produces antibiotics. I've had iris's
growing in my system from the start, mainly because they are perfect for a
marsh-type environment - they like wet feet ie., don't mind constantly
submerged
roots. They probably transfer oxygen to their root zones, as well. I've even
had one large rhizome floating on the water surface, growing like it's very own
raft system, without the raft (the rhizome floats and the roots grow
downwards). I
know this isn't exactly the kind of conditions they are adapted to, but it's
been
working well so far....
anybody out their with more knowledge of plant chemistry who can confirm whether
iris's produce antibiotics and what affect (positive or negative) that might
have
on an aquaponic system.
lars fields
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Subject: Re: PH question
From: Adriana Gutierrez
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:10:19 -0500
Joe,
I believe that Paula mentioned that the "experts" told her that
the PH in her system was WAY to high but, guess what? THe plants
and the fish both thrived despite all of their dire predictions.
Aquaponic systems are different than regular hydroponics in that
respect.
Adriana
> > I have a small aquaponics system set up and my PH is at 8.2 which I
> > understand is not good for the plants but at this point my little
> > fishies seem to love it. How do I lower the PH (what product) and where
> > do I buy it from? Thanks
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| Message 17 |
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics in Tree Culture/Restoration.
From: jilli and lars
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:06:57 -0800
hi darren and kaycy,
I thank you for reigning in my exaggerations with your real world
experience.
I suppose you are right about the lack of profits in the tropical fish
market. Especially if your market is experienced in terms of fish care and
has few
die-offs. The more experienced your customer - the more likely _they_ will
have a
successful breeding and potentially become your competitor! But I suppose it
might
at least help pay for the hobby.
However, i disagree with your opinions in one area - the finicky-ness of
many tropical species. Most of the fish that are readily available in pet
stores or
from breeders are fish species that have already proved easily adaptable to
traditional aquarium practices - ie. the use of tap water combined with
expensive
and overly complicated filtering mechanisms, not to mention the
ion-exchangers, CO2
injectors, and reverse-osmosis devices that are so heavily pushed by nearly
every
freshwater aquarium book, website, and petstore salesperson on the planet.
So the
fish that are most commonly available are those that like (or can at least
tolerate)
these limited conditions. Fish that require conditions outside of those that are
easy to maintain using this equipment are less likely to survive and, therefore,
aren't commonly available within the tropical fish market. Nor are they as
likely to
make it into the manuals of pet fish care, etc. So the buyer of fish is less
likely
to try maintaining this species, so there is not market and we have a cycle....
The chocalate gourami might be a good example. This fish requires
peat-filtered, very soft water with a pH range or 4.5-6. These water conditions
might be easier (and cheaper) to maintain with a modified aquaponic system
rather
than the traditional aquarium setup. But because most aquarists don't use
aquaponics
or know the meaning of 'biotope', the chocolate gourami is not as popular as
other
fish. If aquarists knew about and used aquaponic techniques, the market for that
fish would probably widen, as more people would know how to care for it, and
more
chocolate gourami's would be bred in captivity, etc. That is one example, but I
imagine that there are probably lots more species that we just don't see at all.
Another related example is the clown loach. Clown loaches are commonly
available and will survive quite well (though not healthily or happily) in your
standard 'community tank' aquarium conditions. However, clown loaches rarely
breed
in captivity, so the clown loaches you see in pet stores are almost
definitely wild
caught. Additionally, they are rarely kept in conditions which they feel
comfortable
in - they like dark water and a very soft substrate. Almost every specimen I
see is
in poor health. Quite recently, several people have started to figure out
the types
of conditions they require to breed. Captive breeding would cut down on the
number
of wild-caught specimens. Creating the envionment for breeding clown loaches
might
not be easier with aquaponical techniques - i'm not sure, at least. But I
suspect it
might. It would be nice to cut down on the number of wild-caught clown
loaches that
come all the way from Borneo just to die a slow death in some pink-and-blue
gravelled tank with plastic plants.
I'm only guessing here, but I also imagine that a fish with very specific
water requirements would also be one that would be most threatened by
alterations in
their environment due to human encroachment, and therefore one that would be in
danger of extinction.
I've found my small aquaponic aquarium to be much more stable than
aquariums
i've 'run' in the past. It's also been cheaper to set up. And in the process or
running it, i've learned a lot more about water chemistry and aquatic life
dynamics.
The traditional aquarium practices just don't make living systems as
'transparent'
or obvious as aquaponic techniques do, which makes it more difficult for
traditional
aquiarium keeping to be an educational activity. My system also 'creates' a
lot of
life food for the fish, which cuts down on operational costs and improves
the health
and diet of my captives, besides giving them something to do.
I'm really only a beginner with this, though. In the very least,
aquaponics
seems to be an much easier and cheaper way of maintining good water quality.
In my
limited experience, I would think that hydroponic filtering of aquarium
water has
cut down (or maybe can even eliminate, in a properly designed system) my
need for
the weekly water changes. Nitrate buildup is also no longer a problem.
I what ways do you think aquaponics might benefit the tropical aquarium?
lars fields
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| Message 18 |
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Subject: Re: three pound lettuce bags
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:37:53 -0600
You can try that. A thing to remember though is that you want to make it so
you can slip the bag onto the chute with one hand, otherwise you spend more
time fiddling with the bags then filling them. strecting the bags will
make the bag look a little weird too. If you could find a plastic canister
or trash can that the bag will fit loosely around that will probibly work
best for you. You could cut the bottom on an angle so you have a little bit
of a point to start the bags onto the chute. The nice thing about having
the bag fit on the outside of the chute is that you can weigh it as it is
filling.
Best regards
Dale Robinson
Andriana wrote
>It sounds like a plastic trash can with the bottom cut out would
>make a good chute. The bag would fit over the neck of the can
>which would hold it in place until it is full
>
>Dale Robinson wrote:
>>
>> Sounds like a good idea. Keep in mind that it needs to be accessable
enough
>> to get a bag on it easily. The bottom of the bowl needs to be able to
hold
>> onto a bag too. Perhaps another smaller bowl(one the bag will fit
around)
>> with the bottom removed and attached bottom to bottom to the big bowl
would
>> work.
>
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| Message 19 |
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Subject: Re: PH question
From: "Joe Insana"
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:09:15 EST
Thank you Gordon, Lars and Adriana for your responses.
>From what you are saying I am going to leave my system alone and allow
it to mature and let nature take its course so to speak.
Thanks again.
Joe Insana
New London, OH
a place where the clouds have been ruling the skies all winter.
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Subject: Re: Subduing nitrates and nitrites
From: "Ted Ground"
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:20:52 -0600
Andrew and/or Brian,
What can you tell us about this technology of subduing nitrates and
nitrites.
It has been a while, and the thread seems to been left off..I would like to
hear more from you fellows on this.
Ted.
----------
> From: Andrew
> To: 'aquaponics@townsqr.com'
> Subject: RE: Subduing nitrates and nitrites
> Date: Sunday, February 28, 1999 6:13 AM
>
> We use this technology successfully.
>
> Feed conversions are app. 2lb of feed per ft squared.
>
> Set up right this system becomes self cleaning.
>
> Currently an aquaponics site uses our system for growing
> 20,000 Barramundi Lates calcarifer and 30,000 head of lettuce.
>
> They also use the N.F.T. troughs for their veggie production.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Gracia [SMTP:bgracia@rtripp.com]
> Sent: Monday, 1 March 1999 8:28
> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
> Subject: Subduing nitrates and nitrites
>
> I have yet another question. I went on a net safari to find the ever
> elusive "information" about amonia, nitrates and nitrites. One of the
> links I came across involved using 50ft of 1/4" tubing to raise bacteria
to
> change amonia to nitrates and nitrites and nitrogen gas. Has anyone done
> this for their tank systems? I know that S&S uses grow beds and this
works
> for them, but I will be using troughs to grow veggies in.
>
> Brian
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Subject: Re: Specs
From: doelle
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:04:27 +1000
Ken,
Please do not get upset and scared of what we are discussing. We only
discuss what can happen when we try to believe that nature is not doing its
job. In reality nature cannot do its job properly because we are interfering.
<other day,when he was talking about bacteria exchanging information,or
>material,when you rebuffed him Horst,
I thought that lars was trying to justify genetical engineering because
genetical exchange occurs in nature. However, I realised in his response
that I misunderstood his argument. Bacteria can only exchenge genetical
material amongst there own species or in a very restricted bacterial
community. Since there are very few antibiotics formed in nature, there is
no reason to believe that bacteria become quickly resistant to all antibiotics.
and Ted I think when Lars made the
>comparision of the Mega corporations to the Nazi's,he might have been
>referring to things,like this Transgenic fish,wasn't Hitler trying to build a
>Superhuman race thru Genetic engineering.
In the days of Hitler, we did not even know anything about genetical
engineering and thus he could not have thought that way. He however
promogated a superrace through breeding so-called arians,a name I believe
comes from India, but I could be wrong.
I don't have the education,that any
>of you have,I can't read the label on a bag of feed,and discern what should be
>there and what should not,how will I know if the fingerlings I purchase,have
>been Genetically altered,or are resistant to antibiotics.
> Do the plants produce something that the keeps the fish healthy? I don't
>believe there is anyone out there who can do it better than nature,
I do not believe that we can do better than nature, who keeps everything in
perfect balance. However, we can help nature to improve instead of
destroying and make so-called super-fish or super-crop etc.
The whole issue has come to the peak only because there is money in the
manufacture of genetical engineered goods.
I only attack genetical engineering in the food industry and not in medical
science, because in the latter case, we do not eat the microbe.
Ken, government do start to setup safety measures for those companies. My
argument is, however, they I as an individual should be able to make a
choice whether I like a beautiful large red looking genetically engineered
tomato or whether I prefer the much more tasty natural tomato. The same goes
with every food including fish.
If we stick together and pressurise the authorities on that issue, the
future may be ok.
Thus, do not be scared for the presence, but we are lookiing for the future
and the future generation.
OK ?
Best regards Horst
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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| Message 22 |
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Subject: Re: Specs
From: doelle
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:15:38 +1000
Ted, I enjoyed your reply.
Best regards Horst
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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| Message 23 |
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Subject: Re: Specs
From: doelle
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:18:13 +1000
Gordon, I cannot agree more with your statement. Labeling unfortunately only
occurs where the government forces the issue.
Best regards Horst
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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Subject: Re: Salvation Utility Vehicles
From: "Paul Anthony"
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:21:20 -0600
No one seems to have addressed the issue of transgenic tilapia with
potential for four-fold increase in growth rates. What will this do to
market prices? Aside from the issues of potential and unexplored harmful
effects to the consumer. it would seem to me, markets would be turned upside
down, as extreme rapid growth would result from feeding far less food in a
given time period. Anyone dealing in tilapia at any level for profit would
be forced into using the "designer" fish in order to stay in business at a
competitive price. Does the small scale grower have a recourse in this
scenario or does "big greed" always have to win. I feel confident the sale
of designer fish will be approved in this country and wonder if any research
at the gov't level is going on to protect the consumer.
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Subject: Re: Specs
From: jilli and lars
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:33:36 -0800
doelle wrote:
> I thought that lars was trying to justify genetical engineering because
genetical exchange occurs in nature. However, I realised in his response
that I misunderstood his argument. Bacteria can only exchenge genetical
material amongst there own species or in a very restricted bacterial
community. Since there are very few antibiotics formed in nature, there is
no reason to believe that bacteria become quickly resistant to all antibiotics.
Yes Horst, if anything, what I was originally trying to suggest was that
people _DO_NOT_NEED_to_buy_ genetically engineered strains of bacteria to
add to greywater systems, because the bacteria might be working out how to
adapt to a particular system for themselves _already_. It is redundant.
Instead, by continually adding bacteria samples from various _wild_ sources
(or even damaged ecosystems, as John Todd has pointed out with his
Living Machines), you are constantly exposing 'your' bacteria population to
diverse strains (and genes) from the larger world, thereby increasing the
chance that 'your' bacteria strain(s) will become better and better adapted
to your system's particularities. The system will work it out for itself
because the bacteria (or plasmids) that really 'like' your system will
survive and flourish. The reality is probably a lot more complicated than
that, involving complex inter-special relationships between different
bacterial communities and such, but that's the gist of what I was trying to say.
lars fields
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Subject: antibiotics and iris's
From: jilli and lars
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:14:44 -0800
>
>
> I have heard, though from somewhat anecdotal sources, that an iris
> variety (and possibly the iris family) produces antibiotics. I've had iris's
> growing in my system from the start, mainly because they are perfect for a
> marsh-type environment - they like wet feet ie., don't mind constantly
submerged
> roots. They probably transfer oxygen to their root zones, as well.
I've even
> had one large rhizome floating on the water surface, growing like it's
very own
> raft system, without the raft (the rhizome floats and the roots grow
downwards). I
> know this isn't exactly the kind of conditions they are adapted to, but
it's been
> working well so far....
>
> anybody out their with more knowledge of plant chemistry who can confirm
whether
> iris's produce antibiotics and what affect (positive or negative) that
might have
> on an aquaponic system.
>
> lars fields
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Subject: Re: Mr. Pauls Aquaponic Fish Sticks
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:39:20 EST
In a message dated 3/12/99 6:27:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
justbooks@sofnet.com writes:
<< No one seems to have addressed the issue of transgenic tilapia with
potential for four-fold increase in growth rates. What will this do to
market prices? Aside from the issues of potential and unexplored harmful
effects to the consumer. it would seem to me, markets would be turned upside
down, as extreme rapid growth would result from feeding far less food in a
given time period. Anyone dealing in tilapia at any level for profit would
be forced into using the "designer" fish in order to stay in business at a
competitive price. Does the small scale grower have a recourse in this
scenario or does "big greed" always have to win. I feel confident the sale
of designer fish will be approved in this country and wonder if any research
at the gov't level is going on to protect the consumer.
>>
Hi Paul, The market always suffers,when it is flooded with product,however the
issues of potential and harmful effects to the consumer cannot be proven if
they are unexplored,and unfortunately it is usually too late for someone,when
the effects are discovered. But if people like Ted,Horst,Gordon And others can
make their concerns known to the public,this could be a plus for
aquaponics,people are more health conscious than ever, it is going to take
some marketing strategy,everybody's seen,The other white meat commercials,The
beef,Got Milk, are there any associations promoting Aquaponics?if not there
might need to be.If it's worked right,it could help us,and shoot the hormone
pushers in the foot.The public knows a lot about what is going on in the food
industry,and they're concerned but in order for them to get good and safe
food, they have to know where to go to get it. They need to be educated, I've
had several people a day come up to me and ask what I'm doing,when I respond
that I'm setting up an aquaponic greenhouse,only about one out of ten has ever
heard about it.If you sell a better product people will pay a higher price, as
a matter of fact a lot of people think if it's priced higher,then it must be
better. You can't win if you don't fight. I wouldn't wait on uncle sam to do
anything, they're still trying to catch up. Hang in there Paul the world
needs you. Thanks Ken
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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