Aquaponics Digest - Fri 03/26/99




Message   1: Red varieties for salad mix

             from Adriana Gutierrez 

Message   2: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

             from "M. Brody" 

Message   3: silt clogging water lines

             from "M. Brody" 

Message   4: worm production from fish wastes

             from "M. Brody" 

Message   5: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

             from doelle 

Message   6: Re: worm production from fish wastes

             from Adriana Gutierrez 

Message   7: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

             from "Doug Basberg" 

Message   8: Re: Aquaponics Start - up

             from "Doug Basberg" 

Message   9: Re: worm production from fish wastes

             from "M. Brody" 

Message  10: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

             from Gordon Watkins 

Message  11: Re: silt clogging water lines

             from Gordon Watkins 

Message  12: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

             from "TGTX" 

Message  13: Fwd. SUMMER INTERNSHIPS

             from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message  14: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message  15: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message  16: RE: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

             from Alejandro Gallardo Valencia 

Message  17: Re: silt clogging water lines

             from "TGTX" 

Message  18: RE: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

             from doelle 

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| Message 1                                                           |

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Subject: Red varieties for salad mix

From:    Adriana Gutierrez 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:59:06 -0500

Ok guys, new topic.  I'd like to increase the red colored

varieties in my salad mix.  Do you have any favorites?  Any

varieties that are duds?  Here are my observations to date:

Winners

-------

Cerize - a frilly red lettuce but slow growing, Gail tells me it

tolerates multiple cuttings well

Bull's Blood Beets - spectacular red leaves, seeds must be

covered to germinate successfully

Reg Giant Mustard - nice zippy taste with oblong reddish leaves

Not so great (for color)

-------------------------

Integrata - nowhere near as red as shown in the catalog

Rosalita - touted as a "red romaine" but not quite, nice as a

green, good growth but color at the baby stage is limited to

occasional speckles, not different enough from regular romaine to

warrant having both in the mix.

Cocarde - promoted as a "red oakleaf" type, but not very red or

distignuishable from green oakleaf to have both in the mix. 

Flavor is nice though.

Possibilities

-------------

Cranberry hibiscus - a friend has suggested I try growing this

edible variety of the ornamental for a tangy, lemony falvor,

flowers are edible, suceptible to frost.

Outredgeous - at 10 days it is showing signs of coming up very

very red,seed is pricey

I'd like to hear what others have tried and liked.  If there are

specific seasonal issues, that would be useful too.

Adriana

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| Message 2                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

From:    "M. Brody" 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:34:46 +0200

Thank you TGTX for your letter 0n 19:24 25/03/99 -0600.

>My point was VERY CLEAR...How can you have side effects as you suggest,

>when a single genetic trait has been removed from a plant? I am not saying

>you cannot have side effects, I just am asking what is the basis for the

>arguement...I am asking for open speculation here that addresses the

>specific question.  

>

>How can you have digestive, immunological, ecological, sociological,

>geopolitical, yada, yada, yada, yada,... difficulties when the trait in

>question is absent?  In the situation that I proposed, the gene has been

>selectively removed, rather than added, to the genome.

Hello,

I joined you to gain practical information about closed aquaculture

systems, but cannot resist adding a word about genetic engineering:

It doesn't matter if you add or remove "a single genetic trait" from a

plant or organism- in either case you have destroyed an internal ballance

which was the product of considerable forethought [or millions of years of

Evolution- depending on your point of view] in the "design" of that

particular organism, and its relationship to its environment.  

Was the "negative"  trait that we removed balancing off an even more

destructive one?[removing the camphor from the plant allows fungii to grow

unhampered on it ]. Or does it change the food chain? [without the camphor

the plant turns into an ideal host for the larvae of a formerly rare

fly/beetle/moth etc. which destroys all the market crops for a radius of

kilometers]. [[notice that in this case laboratory tests won't help, and

also labeling of the consumer product will come far too late]]?  And

finally, what about the consumer:  we produced an inexpensive and tasty

sugar supplement- but after 2 generations of human use- we find an alarming

growth of juvenile diabetes cases...  

Just a thought...

Menachem

.

Menachem Brody

Machon Helkat Hasadeh

Elon Moreh

mbrody@earthling.net

--------------------------

come tour the Shomron [Samaria] with us at:

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/3997/

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| Message 3                                                           |

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Subject: silt clogging water lines

From:    "M. Brody" 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:40:23 +0200

Shalom from Israel:

We are building a large scale integrated aquaculture system here, planning

to use the water for drip line irrigation [strawberries in greenhouses].

Does anyone have experience with a low cost system for removing the

silt/sediment that clogs the drip lines?

Thank you,

Menachem

.

Menachem Brody

Machon Helkat Hasadeh

Elon Moreh

mbrody@earthling.net

--------------------------

come tour the Shomron [Samaria] with us at:

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/3997/

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| Message 4                                                           |

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Subject: worm production from fish wastes

From:    "M. Brody" 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:44:44 +0200

Does anyone have experience or information on growing red worms from

biological filter waste [sediments] from a fish pond [and feeding them to

the fish]?  I have heard that there are systems like this in South America.

Thank you,

Menachem

.

Menachem Brody

Machon Helkat Hasadeh

Elon Moreh

mbrody@earthling.net

--------------------------

come tour the Shomron [Samaria] with us at:

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/3997/

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| Message 5                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

From:    doelle 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:17:24 +1000

The answer to the following question is:

><<<< In medicine is a completely different story. The GMO is to save lifes and

>also the organism does not come in contact with living people or animals.

> >>

>Greetings Horst,Please explain how genetic engineering could be used in

>medicine,and not come into contact with people or animals?I,m a little

>confused here! Could the trick be in the (Living) part of the phrase?

>

In medicine we produce an antibiotic, a vaccine, that is, we are using the

product of a GMO and not the GMO itself. The key differences are

a) we do not eat the genetically modified food or organism, since the

product from the GMO has no genes and thus is a simple or complex chemical.

b) the GMO at the end of the production process is destroyed and thus has to

be contained according to law and cannot be dumped or used for any further

process except the one produicing the particular product.

The effect of the so produced 'chemical' on our immune system is a different

story. You are well aware of antibiotic resistance, allergy to antibiotics

and allergy to vaccination . BUT it has nothing to do with genes.

I hope I was able to explain and answer your question correctly. If you have

more questions, please ask.

Best regards

Horst

>

Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]

Chairman, IOBB

Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology

FAX: +617-38783230

Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au

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| Message 6                                                           |

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Subject: Re: worm production from fish wastes

From:    Adriana Gutierrez 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:04:27 -0500

Menachem,

Mr. Alfredo Rodriguez Delfín of the Universidad Nacional Autonoma

in Lima Peru has organized a network of Latin Americans with

interests in hydroponics.  He may know of the projects you've

heard of.

You can e-mail him at delfin@lamolina.edu.pe

Adriana Gutierrez

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| Message 7                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

From:    "Doug Basberg" 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:22:58 -0600

Well said.  We had better move slowly and give every step a lot of thought.

I am an engineer and scientist and an atheist.  We are fooling with the

fabric of life without much understanding.  Children with a book of matches.

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| Message 8                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Aquaponics Start - up

From:    "Doug Basberg" 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:40:33 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BE775B.EEF670D0

Content-Type: text/plain;

        charset="Windows-1252"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I envy your 78 degree temp in March.  Here in Michigan the water has some

ice around the edges.  You have the catfish and tilapi option, if your water

is going to be warm to hot all year.  I think that would be nice.  Here, I

use catfish (they handle hot, cold, low oxygen, etc.) and sunfish, blue

gill, and perch (all of which seem to tolerate a large range of water temp).

Good luck.  Where are you?  Do you have someone near you to get ideas about

fish that thrive there?

----- Original Message -----

From: 

To: 

Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 9:21 PM

Subject: Re: Aquaponics Start - up

>Hello,Help I've got my system started,plants in,started with some minnows

and

>Crappie,just to get things going,water temp 78,plants have quadrupled in

size

>in five days,I'm not sure what is going on but I put five Large pregnant

>Crappie,minnows,and one white bass in the tank.The minnows and white bass

are

>doing fine,but all the crappie died,all of their fins turned clear,and then

>the skin just disappeared,leaving nothing but the fin bones! Ammonia is 0

PH

>7.4 water is crystal clear. Anyone have any ideas on this problem? Thanks

Ken

>

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| Message 9                                                           |

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Subject: Re: worm production from fish wastes

From:    "M. Brody" 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:34:30 +0200

Thank you Adriana Gutierrez for your letter 0n 07:04 26/03/99 -0500.

>Mr. Alfredo Rodriguez Delf=EDn of the Universidad Nacional Autonoma

>in Lima Peru has organized a network of Latin Americans with

>interests in hydroponics.  He may know of the projects you've

>heard of.

>

>You can e-mail him at delfin@lamolina.edu.pe

>

>Adriana Gutierrez

>

Thank you for your prompt response!

Menachem

Menachem Brody

Machon Helkat Hasadeh

Elon Moreh

mbrody@earthling.net

--------------------------

come tour the Shomron [Samaria] with us at:

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/3997/

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| Message 10                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

From:    Gordon Watkins 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:31:24 -0600

I think a first step is to gain an understanding of why the "undesirable"

gene is there in the first place. Nature is very efficient and there is

always a good explanation

for why plants exist as they do and there may be unexpected repercussions to

uninformed manipulations.

    For example, fescue grass, a common forage crop in the US, harbors the

endophyte fungus. When cattle are grazed for long periods of time on pure

stands of fescue, there

can be problems with reduced weight gains and low fertility due to this

ubiquitous fungus. Endophyte-free fescue seed is available but is not widely

used by practical farmers

because stand persistence is poor, pest resistance is poor, and it is

susceptible to drought. This is because the fungus has evolved in symbiosis

with the fescue plant. It

repels other diseases, is unpalatable to insects (an invasion of army worms

last fall devasted my bermuda grass fields but the fescue was untouched),

and improves water

uptake by the plant. The fescue plant itself is immune (or resistant) to the

negative effects of the fungus. So, farmers have learned to live with the

fungus and have

developed management techniques to minimize its negative aspects.

    While this example is not one of genetic manipulation, it does show that

there are good reasons for the presence of even apparently undesirable

traits. I would guess that

camphor has an important role in the viability of the crop you mention and

its removal would probably make it a challenge to grow it economically.

That's just a guess.

                            Gordon

Ted wrote:

>  At 12:03 PM 25/03/99 -0600, you wrote:

> >There has been much ado on this list about genetic engineering pros and

> >cons.

> >And some connections of that topic to organic agricultural practices.

> >

> >

> >

> >I have a question and an illustration that I hope will help convey what I

> >am wondering about. What if a plant contains many genes that are desirable

> >but only one that is undesirable, and somehow you find that you can cut

> >that undesirable gene out, leaving the ones you want remaining in the plant

> >genome?

> >

> >

> >What, if any, kind of objections could be raised against growing such a

> >modified plant in an organic setting?

> >

> >Ted

> >

> >

> >

> Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]

> Chairman, IOBB

> Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology

> FAX: +617-38783230

> Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au

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| Message 11                                                          |

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Subject: Re: silt clogging water lines

From:    Gordon Watkins 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:44:55 -0600

Hello Menachem and welcome to the list,

    Israel is a world leader in the innovation of drip irrigation so I assume

you're familiar with the usual filtration options. While I have not used drip

in my aquaponics system, I have used it for many years in field applications.

My suggestion would be a settling basin followed by a disc type filter such as

the Arkal and the use of emitters with large flow paths. Some of the

"sediment" you mention in the lines may be bacterial slime due to the high

nutrient levels in the water. I doubt mechanical filtration will have an

effect on its removal but you could try either flushing the lines peridically

with dilute hydrogen peroxide or continuous injection of same. Although it's a

powerful oxidant, I've used peroxide in fish tanks, drip lines, and on field

crops with no negative effects as long as the concentration is not too high.

You could experiment to find levels adequate to eliminate the slime without

damaging the crops or fish. Or maybe someone else has tried it and can

recommend a starting point.

                        Good luck,

                                    Gordon

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| Message 12                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

From:    "TGTX" 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:06:50 -0600

Greetings from Texas to you there in Israel, Menachem !

you wrote:

> It doesn't matter if you add or remove "a single genetic trait" from a

> plant or organism- in either case you have destroyed an internal ballance

> which was the product of considerable forethought [or millions of years

of

> Evolution- depending on your point of view] in the "design" of that

> particular organism, and its relationship to its environment.  

> 

> Was the "negative"  trait that we removed balancing off an even more

> destructive one?[removing the camphor from the plant allows fungii to

grow

> unhampered on it ]. Or does it change the food chain? [without the

camphor

> the plant turns into an ideal host for the larvae of a formerly rare

> fly/beetle/moth etc. which destroys all the market crops for a radius of

> kilometers]. [[notice that in this case laboratory tests won't help, and

> also labeling of the consumer product will come far too late]]?  And

> finally, what about the consumer:  we produced an inexpensive and tasty

> sugar supplement- but after 2 generations of human use- we find an

alarming

> growth of juvenile diabetes cases...  

Now THAT was a reply.  Well spoken, well said. Especially the aspect of

considerable forethought...Hmm.....Now we are talking here.....

Honestly, I dont think I buy into the conclusion that removing a single

gene from a plant- a particular species in this case- the Aztec Sweet Herb-

and growing it in a greenhouse will result in all the disasterous scenarios

that you have listed in your remarks...it just doesn't seem likely to me,

since we have been breeding out traits in plants and animals for

millenia.....but, hey, at least we are streaming some data here...bouncing

it back and forth a little...examining the evidence....  

Let's see here....if we were to cross breed several strains of Aztec Sweet

Herb for several generations until we were finally able to remove the

camphor gene by selection...as plant breeders have done for millienia

without too much dire consequences, then that would be O.K. to the organic

community as I under stand it. The reason there are so many varieties of

corn, basil, orchids, and geraniums is due to such efforts of plant

breeders....so far I have not heard reports of geraniums invading New York

Harbor like Godzilla on a bad hair day....but it could happen!

But if we use any kind of nuclease enzymes, or restrictive enzymes, or

polymerase chain reaction technologies to accomplish the same end in

removing certain plant traits then it is considered potentially

disasterous?  I guess I am hopelessly lost and just not understanding

something here. -As I have said before, sometimes I have to be led by the

hand--I am, after all, just an "old cow hand from the Rio Grande" and I

tend to be hard of thinking.

In any case, I am not a plant geneticist nor do I have any inclination to

perform this kind of thing in my workshop here on the farm...These things

just pop into my head sometimes while I work in the greenhouse, and I just

think we should look hard at the evidence and then look again, and chew the

cud...contemplate these things and then condense it down into what we know,

what we don't know, and what seems likely.  

THIS IS WAY, WAY, OFF TOPIC SO, PLEASE FORGIVE OR IGNORE THIS: 

Robert Heinlein wrote a book called Stranger in a Strange Land...in this

future earth scenario, Heinlein created characters called "True

Witnesses"....Their role was to be super keen observers of every detail in

a particular situation, then report what they observed and only what they

observed without personal biases, preconceived notions, or any kind of

embellishment---in his novel they were to report their observations under

legal oath in courts, hearings, depositions, etc. "To tell the truth, the

whole truth and nothing but the truth", as they say...Sort of an

independent social instituion of Expert Witnesses. If you asked one of them

"What color is the house over there on the top of that hill?"  They would

say...it appears to be white on this side"....Hmm.....

I couldn't possibly fit into that kind of role myself, being too bull

headed, too Irish, too Texan and too prone to exaggerated, long winded,

extemporaneous prose and poetry.  Nevertheless, wouldn't it be great if we

suddenly had many of these True Witnesses in the world--to say it like it

is, so to speak...with all the hoopla that is out there, I would estimate

we might need oh, say, at least 12 times 12 thousand or so to do the job

right.  We could call them Reality Checkers.  

Just a thought

Ted

(aka son of thunder...which makes me a little thor)

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| Message 13                                                          |

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Subject: Fwd. SUMMER INTERNSHIPS

From:    S & S Aqua Farm 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:22:57 -0600

Saw this on the AQUA-L list and thought it might interest someone in this group.

Paula

---------------------------------------

>From: RSchmid2

>Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:28:03 EST

>To: AQUA-L@killick.ifmt.nf.ca

>Subject: SUMMER INTERNSHIPS

>Sender: owner-AQUA-L@killick.ifmt.nf.ca

>Reply-To: AQUA-L@killick.ifmt.nf.ca

>

>Hello all,

>990324

>

>Simaron Fresh Water Fish, a tilapia farm near Houston Texas is offering two

>(2) internship positions this summer.  Starting date would be as early in May

>as possilbe and go until school starts in the fall.  Housing is provided and a

>monthly salary beginning at $800. / month.  This is on opportunity to discover

>if you are cut-out to be a fish farmer.

>

>Some minimum requirements.  You must be able to lift and carry, under control,

>80 lbs.  You must be able to work hard, for extended period of time.

>

>if interested, call (409) 826-3554, fax, (409) 826-4308, or e-mail

>RSCHMID2

>

>Regards,  Robert  Schmid  GM,  SFWF

------------------------------------------

S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124

Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

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| Message 14                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:10:07 EST

In a message dated 3/26/99 6:13:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,

doelle@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< 

 I hope I was able to explain and answer your question correctly. If you have

more questions, please ask.

 

 Best regards

 

 Horst >>

Thanks Horst Ken

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| Message 15                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:21:17 EST

In a message dated 3/26/99 7:34:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, dbasberg@ic.net

writes:

<< am an engineer and scientist and an atheist.  We are fooling with the

 fabric of life without much understanding >>

I'm sorry,but you don't have any understanding! Ken

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| Message 16                                                          |

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Subject: RE: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

From:    Alejandro Gallardo Valencia 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:20:10 -0600

Ted:

Allthough I'm all for responsible genetic engineering, I think Horst =

answered your question.  The problem here, with your example, is that =

you can take the right genes to make the plant or anything else for that =

matter, useful,  that's what GE does, but first scentists have to have a =

complete and perfect understanding of all the genetic material of the =

plant.   Second, as Horst pointed out, there has to be extensive =

testing, etc.  Thorough testing is extremely important.

Now, the difference with modified plants and animals (but especially =

plants) and say, vaccines, is that you cannot predict the ecological =

impact or latter modifications of the organism when accidentally ending =

up in an ecosystem.  Let's asume, using your example, that this plant =

get's accidentally introduced in what would have been its natural =

habitat, and it competes and wipes out the original organism from that =

niche.  Let's imagine that there's a bug that can eat only the natural =

specie, so it dissapears from that place, and so does the lizard that =

eats that bug, and so forth.  Then again, maybe nothing bad will happen, =

but we cannot always predict this sort of things.  Again, to me testing =

is one of the main issues, and a global vision to ensure covering all =

possible effects. As I said before, I'm pro-GE, hence I try to see from =

all sides to have a more objective opinion.

Well, the point is that there's no simple answer regarding pros and cons =

of GE.

Just a thought (or two). Best Regards.

Alejandro

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| Message 17                                                          |

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Subject: Re: silt clogging water lines

From:    "TGTX" 

Date:    Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:20:38 -0600

Gordon, you wrote:

> My suggestion would be a settling basin followed by a disc type filter

such as

> the Arkal and the use of emitters with large flow paths. Some of the

> "sediment" you mention in the lines may be bacterial slime due to the

high

> nutrient levels in the water. 

Coarse particles can be removed with a cascade type filter sold by

Greenlink out of North Carolina.  I have not evaluated these...so if anyone

knows more, please let me know about them.

One thing I might suggest on the settling basin is to experiment with an

inclined plate settler, which effectively compresses the volume and area

required of a settling basin...to accomplish the same amount of particle

sedimentation.  They are very effective in removal of solids and require

little maintenance.  It consists of several inclined plates in a

series...along a raceway basin...it reduces turbulence, induces upward

laminar flow of the water, and promotes settling of particulate matter. 

The plates suspended above the bottom of the basin and are inclined at

about a 55 degree angle or so...Keeton Industries claims their models  can

"remove on an average of 80% TSS larger than 70 microns and 55% of TSS

larger than 1.5 microns"  

Their claim about the 70 micron particulate removal I can pretty much

accept...but the 1.5 micron claim I am having difficulty with...I mean, we

are talking on the scale of bacteria sizes here....for gravity settlment

that is very hard to believe at any reasonable flow rate.....Surely, don't

they really mean 15 microns?  And this really depends on the specific

gravity of the particulates in question...

Gordon, can you point me to references on the Arkal disc type filter,

please?

Thanks 

Ted

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| Message 18                                                          |

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Subject: RE: Genetically Engineered Plant Question.

From:    doelle 

Date:    Sat, 27 Mar 1999 09:29:13 +1000

Thanks Alejandro. I am with you, as I am also for RESPONSIBLE genetic

engineering helping people and not helping only your pocket.

Best wishes

Horst

At 10:20 AM 26/03/99 -0600, you wrote:

>Ted:

>

>Allthough I'm all for responsible genetic engineering, I think Horst

answered your question.  The problem here, with your example, is that you

can take the right genes to make the plant or anything else for that matter,

useful,  that's what GE does, but first scentists have to have a complete

and perfect understanding of all the genetic material of the plant.

Second, as Horst pointed out, there has to be extensive testing, etc.

Thorough testing is extremely important.

>Now, the difference with modified plants and animals (but especially

plants) and say, vaccines, is that you cannot predict the ecological impact

or latter modifications of the organism when accidentally ending up in an

ecosystem.  Let's asume, using your example, that this plant get's

accidentally introduced in what would have been its natural habitat, and it

competes and wipes out the original organism from that niche.  Let's imagine

that there's a bug that can eat only the natural specie, so it dissapears

from that place, and so does the lizard that eats that bug, and so forth.

Then again, maybe nothing bad will happen, but we cannot always predict this

sort of things.  Again, to me testing is one of the main issues, and a

global vision to ensure covering all possible effects. As I said before, I'm

pro-GE, hence I try to see from all sides to have a more objective opinion.

S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124

Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/



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