Aquaponics Digest - Sat 04/03/99




Message   1: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

             from Jim Sealy Jr 

Message   2: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

             from Jim Sealy Jr 

Message   3: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

             from Jim Sealy Jr 

Message   4: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message   5: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message   6: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message   7: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

             from Gordon Watkins 

Message   8: Re: Genetic engineering

             from "KevinLReed" 

Message   9: Re: Genetic engineering

             from "TGTX" 

Message  10: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

             from "Sam Levy" 

Message  11: Re: Genetic engineering

             from William Evans 

Message  12: Re: Fight Gas Prices

             from Mike Miller 

Message  13: Re: Fight Gas Prices

             from Jon Hays 

Message  14: Re: Fight Gas Prices

             from "Wendy Nagurny" 

Message  15: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

             from "Uwe Bruenjes" 

Message  16: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

             from Jim Sealy Jr 

Message  17: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message  18: Re: Aquaponics without eating the fish..

             from Jim Sealy Jr 

Message  19: Re: Genetic engineering

             from Dave Miller 

Message  20: Re: Gravel beds (was Tomato Varieties)

             from "William Brown" 

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| Message 1                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

From:    Jim Sealy Jr 

Date:    Sat, 03 Apr 1999 02:08:38 -0600

Hi Trudy,

The other one is the common green sunfish (Lepomis cyanellus).

You should have those in Florida, but you can also get a decent cross

using the redear, or shellcracker (L. microlophus), and the warmouth, or

goggleye (L. gulosus), but with less spectacular results.

Jim

JobieEagan@webtv.net wrote:

> 

> Thanks, Jim.  And Ken has the Ga. giants.  Are there any such thing in

> Fl.?  We certainly have bluegills, but I haven't heard of the other one.

> Trudy

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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

From:    Jim Sealy Jr 

Date:    Sat, 03 Apr 1999 02:16:52 -0600

Hi Wendy,

Well, that's a different sort of question. The bream don't _require_ the

high temps, but bream can handle and do grow much faster at the higher

temps, which is reasonable since they generally are known to frequent

sunny shoals in the wild and temps there can get down right hot. That's

the beauty of the bream; in winter, if you want to run a less energy

intensive operation, you can let the temps drop some, while the solar

collectors are coasting, without loosing fish. You'll just have a

decreased metabolic rate, thus less waste products, so you might need to

add worm castings as a supplement. I killed off ~1000 fingerlings

experimenting with adding commercial hydro mixtures, yet when I've tried

adding too much castings I've only managed to muddy the water.  I'm

planning to see just how much nitrate they can stand soon, and that

should take a lot since I have seen wild bream do well in cow ponds

where the ammonia levels would knock you over. 

Oh, on the testing.. I'm doing that in plastic 55 gal barrels ($5 each).

Take one and cut it lengthwise and you get 2 plant beds, put the fish in

another, drop in a cheapie fountain pump and plug into a simple timer.

Use a self priming siphon (*) to return the water to the fish tank.

Total cost: $60 and you're in business. At the other extreme, I've

finally lined up the financing to build my dream house set-up complete

with 30 store bought solar panels and 12'x50'x5' (~20,000 gal) raceway

in the attached greenhouse, so I hope hybrid bream will be on a lot more

menus soon.

  I'm having good luck now running my tanks at 80F. I hope to get table

size fish (12 - 16 oz) in 6-8 months once I get the bugs worked out and

have year round growth and tweak the feed rates. Right now, we taper off

feeding some in winter outdoors and didn't lose many fish even with as

much as an inch of ice on top using 4 foot cages. 

Talking about experimenting.. I'm trying something different (for me at

least) with plants too. I'm using some plastic mesh trays of perlite for

the plants so I can lift out root, medium and all, then toss the root

clump on a drying pile, then run it through the same separator I use for

worms. The medium falls through and the roots go on the compost pile.

Then I'll run the medium over a sand screen to remove all the small

pieces while retaining the good medium. Also, I won't have to dig in all

that gravel and I can automate some of the planting and harvesting 

process.

My extension agent told me aquaponics was too energy and labor intensive

to compete with our conventional ponds and greenhouses.

I'm planning to prove him wrong. 

Jim

(*) = A long while back, someone posted an URL explaining Archimedes'?

siphons, but I've lost it now. They're what makes a flush toilet work.

Closest example I can find is at:

http://guernsey.uoregon.edu/~phdemo/demo/Fluid_Mechanics/FM-Hydraulics.html#

Tantalus

Cup -- siphon Vase

Wendy Nagurny wrote:

> 

> > They should make a very good drop-in replacement for Tilapia in

> >aquaponic systems, and don't suffer from some of the legal restrictions,

> >overseas competition, and consumer recognizability questions Tilapia

> >present in some areas of the US.

> >Jim

> 

> Would they?  I would think the temperature requirements would be different

> for tilapia and a bluegill/sunfish cross since tilapia are tropical and the

> others are temperate.

> 

> B.T.W.  welcome back, Jim.

> Wendy

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| Message 3                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

From:    Jim Sealy Jr 

Date:    Sat, 03 Apr 1999 02:19:29 -0600

Hi Ken,

 The big ones take about 2 1/2 years of steady feeding. The biggest I've

seen weighed over 4 pounds and was caught about 4 years after we stocked

that pond. This was before we started using the cages. I have a pic

around here somewhere of the 4 pounder and will post it if I can turn it

up. I have a 1 foot ruler laid across that one, with fish hanging over.

We raise them to such large sizes for our trophy ponds (entrance fee

based). I'm still trying to raise some trophy bass (12+ lb.) in a

similar set-up with poor results. I had my first experience with hybrid

bream about 10 years ago. We stocked our first trophy pond with hybrid

bream and Florida hybrid largemouth bass.

I'm in north MS. I'm not sure if MS was ahead of everybody else or if

it's just that I'm more familiar with our fish, but these fish are

common here. This hybrid and a few other crosses should be available in

most states.  

The F-1 hybrid (first generation) is what you want to raise. These fish

are not sterile but run about 80-90% male and do not breed true, but in

cage or tank culture that's not a problem since they don't seem to

attempt breeding in these environments.

Maybe I won't be the only one growing hybrid bream for long. 

Jim

KLOTTTRUE wrote:

> 

>  

> Hey Jim, did you say 3lb 12 ozs,thats a nice size bream,how long did it take

> to grow to that size? also what part of the country are you in? you're getting

> me excited now,Bream are my All-Time Favorite Fish! Please write soon Ken

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| Message 4                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Sat, 3 Apr 1999 03:46:52 EST

In a message dated 4/2/99 9:07:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

JobieEagan@webtv.net writes:

<<  I'm sure going to look your page over, Ken, but there are alot of miles

 between us.  I imagine shipping would be costly.  Hybrids don't breed do

 they?  Thanks!  Trudy

 

 >>

Trudy,I'm sorry, didn't mean to mislead you,that's not my page. Ken 

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| Message 5                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Sat, 3 Apr 1999 03:52:48 EST

In a message dated 4/3/99 3:17:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, 

jimsealyjr@who.net writes:

<< Hi Trudy,

 The other one is the common green sunfish (Lepomis cyanellus >>

They call them Stumpknockers,in Florida.

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| Message 6                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Sat, 3 Apr 1999 04:46:08 EST

In a message dated 4/2/99 9:47:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

uweb@megalink.net.mx writes:

<< what about weight gain, taste, feeding habits (omnivore?), etc.?

 

 >>

Hi Uwe, Bream are the best tasting fresh water fish around,in my opinion.They 

eat insects,minnows,pellets,dead or alive,and if their mouth was big 

enough,they'd eat you, if you fell in the water,they fillet nicely,not many 

bones,very similar to Tilapia,in shape and size,but they do not have the 

bitter red strip of meat along the lateral line.They are very prolific 

breeders,and the only reason they're not as popular a game fish,as other 

species is if there is not a very large predator base,they will over populate 

very fast,and therefore growth is stunted,farm pond fishing is much better 

for large fish,than the large resevoirs,therefore most of the public does not 

have access to them,but I've never talked to anyone who didn't agree they are 

the best tasting fish,I believe if they were more readily avalible in fish 

markets,they would outsell Tilapia. Ken

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| Message 7                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

From:    Gordon Watkins 

Date:    Sat, 03 Apr 1999 08:13:32 -0600

    Hi Jim,

    I've kept a few hybrid bluegills in my aquaponic system but have not been

particularly impressed with their growth rates compared to tilapia. I don't have

any numbers but I stocked all-male tilapia and bluegills at the same time, about

the same size, and the tilapia grew much faster. Perhaps the water temps (75-80

F.) were a little too high for the bluegills. They sure are fun to play with

though. When kids come over (or I get bored) I'll drop a tiny crappie jig into

the tank and wham!, they'll hit it in a second.

                                                        Gordon

> In a message dated 4/1/99 6:19:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> jimsealyjr@who.net writes:

>

> <<  Is anyone else raising hybrid bream rather than tilapia in an aquaponics

>  system?

>  I'm looking for information on growout times and suggested feeding

>  rates.

>  Thanks,

>  Jim Sealy Jr.

>  >>

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Subject: Re: Genetic engineering

From:    "KevinLReed" 

Date:    Sat, 3 Apr 1999 08:52:18 -0800

HAPPY EASTER

Oh please ...  genetic engineering does not add or eliminate genes from

the gene pool.  If you remove a camphor gene the long term effect is that

camphor is gone from that plant line ... no more no less. It is not possible

to irreversibly lose a " gene" from the "gene pool".

I know it makes some people feel less important but DNA is the dominant

" species" on this planet and it will only allow certain things to occur

within the parameters of it's continued existence. Have you ever wondered

why there is a concurrent evolution of species on this planet? Shared traits

( example - vertebrates with calcium based bones that look very similar)

with no breeding group

getting an unfair advantage is normal on earth ... it's built in to the

creation.

An unfair advantage, like a plant that expresses cyanide gas so every thing

that walks by falls dead and turns to fertilizer, can't occur without other

species

receiving the cyanide antidote. And this will happen very quickly ...

as fast as you can catch a cold.

And I will tell you a secret ... there is natural process that does not

allow

dominant traits or detrimental traits to be owned by one species of life

on this planet. Ask the Library of Congress if you can look at a copy of

Interspecies Genetic Code Transfer by Viruses.

Is a virus alive or dead? Maybe the production of virus it is just a

function

of life? Sometimes things get scary when you don't know how to ask the

right question.  ... "Yes Columbus, we understand from your illustration

with

the candle and the orange that the earth is round ... but what will

happen to our ships when you fall off the edge of the world?

Give God some credit for being smarter than us ... and be of good cheer!

A Happy Easter message from Kevin < smile>

Kevin

PS. I am trying to revamp the aquaponics system to work with other

than fish as my fiancee doesn't want to make money from the killing

of live animals ... lol

Keep up the excellent thinking

-----Original Message-----

From: DAVEINBHAM 

To: aquaponics@townsqr.com 

Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 8:03 PM

Subject: Genetic engineering

>

>In answer to Ted's question...

>

><<< methods, since that is what we do by selective breeding, and since that

> is what we have done for millenia?  >>>>

>

> I don't think that is quite what we have been doing for millenia.

>Conventional plant breeding tends to select desirable traits from the

>existing gene pool. It neither creates nor delets molecules from the DNA

>helix in most cases.

>

>The gamble here is only life on earth. Is that important to you ? It is to

>me.

>

>Hope this helps

>Dave Holder

>

>

>

>

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| Message 9                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Genetic engineering

From:    "TGTX" 

Date:    Sat, 3 Apr 1999 11:49:05 -0600

Hi Dave!

Hi Everybody!

It's Saturday morning and I have my big coffee mug and I'm all jacked up

and back in the saddle! 

> In answer to Ted's question...

> 

> <<<  methods, since that is what we do by selective breeding, and since that 

>  is what we have done for millenia?  >>>>

> 

>  I don't think that is quite what we have been doing for millenia. 

> Conventional plant breeding tends to select desirable traits from the 

> existing gene pool. It neither creates nor delets molecules from the DNA 

> helix in most cases.

> 

O.K. now we are getting somewhere.  I think this is the first response with

real meat on the bones.  Dave you have approached the task of addressing

the question(s) that I posted, which are these: 1) Are there differences in

the results of a) snipping out a gene that codes for a cell product by

biotechnological methods (using restriction enzymes, nuclease enzymes,

marker genes, what have you and  b) going through generations of plant

selection and cross breeding until you have a variety that, for whatever

reason, no longer produces that cell product?  2) If there are fundamental

differences in the results of using the 2 methods, what are they, and are

the differences or the consequences of the differences DANGEROUS? or

UNDESIRABLE?, and if so, WHY are they so DANGEROUS or UNDESIRABLE?

Before I respond to your point Dave, I must apologize for using the example

that I did because it probably is not a simple or pure enough example.

Maybe my subconscious mind was setting me up....because I just went back

and check some old references....It just popped into my head one day. To

summarize the original point I was making let me backtrack a bit just in

case folks have not been following the thread of this discussion (and who

can blame them for not following it?).  

The Aztec Sweet herb produces a compound that is 1000X sweeter than

sucrose, but has no caloric value as sugar does.  The raw product or leaf

of the Aztec Sweet Herb cannot be used as a sugar substitute as the herb

Stevia sp. is now used, because Aztec Sweet Herb also produces camphor,

which would have to be extracted from the sweet compound...and so I said,

hey... wouldn't it be a cool thing to remove the camphor for the benefit of

all mankind, yada, yada,..then grow the resulting plant under aquaponic

and/or organic production methods.  I asked the question...would organic

activists blow a gasket, weep, wail, tear their robes, and throw ashes on

their heads in lamentations because that evil biotechnology had been used

to select out the part of the genome that produces the camphor, even though

the plant is grown under organic conditions? And if so, why would they

march in the streets with hair shirts over this issue? (By the way, I

consider myself an organic activist. I have the lapel button and everything

to prove it.)

OK... so I used that as the basis for asking the questions. I mentioned

that I went back to check some old references I have on the shelf..Here we

go...Camphor is a product of the organic chemistry of secondary plant

metabolism.  It is a terpenoid.  All terpenoid compounds are related by a

common origin and structural relationship. They are composed of multiples

of a 5 carbon atom unit - an "isopentyl" carbon skeleton. In early years of

the study of terpenes, the hydrocarbon isoprene was encountered as a

product of pyrolytic decomposition of many of them.  Thus, the terpenes

were regarded as being composed of "isoprene units".  For this reason,

terpenoid compounds are often referred to as "isoprenoid" compounds.  

(By the way, when certain plants in the forest exude certain terpenoids in

the form of aerosols up into the atmosphere, and then sunlight acts upon

them, you can get some pretty severe hydrocarbon air pollution- yes folks

it's reality check time again--trees can cause certain forms of air

pollution. Every heard of the Smoky Mountains? Breathe deep.)

Terpenoid biosynthesis is a parallel, or simultaneous side reaction or a

departure from the primary pathways that lead to certain steroids, fatty

acids etc..The primary pathway starts out with one of my favorite enzymes,

ladies and gentlemen please give hand to.....Acetoacetyl coenzyme A (a

direct gene product)  The secondary biosynthetic pathway (actually

pathways- plural) leads first to mevalonic acid (with 6 carbons) which is

the essential and universal progenitor of all terpenoid compounds. The next

major stage results in isopentenyl pyrophosphate, which is the biogenetic

isoprene unit.  Its participation in isoprenoid biosynthesis is dependent

upon an enzyme-catalyzed step (enzymes are direct gene products), in which

an isomerase enzyme causes an equilibrium mixture of the isopentenyl and

the dimethylallyl esters to be formed.  Dimethylallyl pyrophosphate can act

as an alkylating agent, and the biological alkylation reaction takes place

under the influence and at the surface of yet another enzyme (i.e, another

gene product).  

We could go on ad nauseum (as we already have) but the points of importance

here are A) that there are many possible terpenoids that could be formed

along this general pathway...(camphor is one, pinene another, etc) and B)

that the pathway is mediated or catalyzed at several points by several

different enzymes which are true primary gene products...so different genes

are involved.  

Enzymes are proteins coded by the nucleic acid (DNA)code in the genome. 

The biochemicals such as the 6 carbon mevalonic acid, etc., are not direct

gene products.  Therefore, camphor is not a direct gene product, but the

result of many "bifurcations" or pathway "options", with at least several

genes (enzymes) involved at certain steps in the biosynthesis.  Any one of

those genes could be a) expressed, or b) removed, or c) masked by another

gene which might to effect the presence, absence, relative abundance, or

type of terpenoids finally produced.

So, I guess I came up with an inappropriate analogy. We are not talking

about a single gene leading to a single cell product. Drat my foggy minded,

aging hide!

Dave, even though I seem to be squirming on the hook of my own making, I

still think I can wrestle my way out of the quagmire of bad analogy and say

that I think we could find a case in which traditional plant or animal

breeding can and often does involve the selection of a strain or variety in

which a particular gene or section of the genome is "gone missing" from

what might be found in the more common wild types, due to natural

mechanisms taking place.  

I fully realize that in the traditional practice of plant or animal

breeding we are not physically reaching inside the cell and snipping out

and or pasting in genes, but we are selecting those organisms whose traits

we "prefer" in which case, that event may have already taken place..either

by random mutation, or an error in meitotic development, or whatever

mechanism.  Some times in germ cell development, part of a chromosome is

just flat left out, so part of the genome is missing in the resulting germ

cell.

My point was that Nature does this occassionally- it leaves out a gene or a

section of the genome- which causes the offspring of that event to differ

significantly from the rest of the "wild" genome or germ plasm for that

species, and we come along and we happen to see the result of that low

frequency event, and then we select it out of the general population,

isolate it, try to breed it true, and the next thing you know, we have

begun the cultivation of a new variety.  Your point is well taken, that

sometimes we select an organism because a trait is present, not absent, but

I hope you see my point as well.

My point was if Nature does this, and a little old lady in Berkenstocks and

turquois beads wearing Patchouli essential oil perfume and sipping

Celestial Seasoning Tea, and who has a keen eye, selects out that event and

begins to cultivate her own favorite variety of orchid, geranium, Tilapia,

corn, or what have you, it is AOK with the organic activists..But if

someone in a lab coat in a research and development division of a big

corporation does exactly the same thing by a different mechanism, then some

people see that as ecocide...and I just dont seem to be honest with myself

and resolve that in my mind all at the same time.

Another thing I dont understand is the claim that when genes are

artificially combined in one organism, that those "foreign" or recombined

genes are prone to become incorporated into the human genome when the human

eats the genetically modified organism.  An example of genetic engineering

that sends folks into paroxysms of fear is the "fishberry"

thing...Supposedly, the gene from a fish which codes for glycol production,

and which keeps the bodily fluids in the fish from freezing, has been

somehow spliced into a variety of strawberry...Correct me if I am wrong

here... The purpose of that, I guess, was to impart freeze resistance to

the strawberry fruit.  People object to that in one way by claiming that

the fish gene or the fish-strawberry genome runs a risk of being

incorporated into the human genome. How is that supposed to work?  Can

someone explain that? I am just asking here.

I have eaten other organisms all my life, and I have yet to see any

evidence in myself or those around me that my genome is now a chimera or

Frankenstein genetic hybrid of all these plants and animals that I ate.  If

those genes from my naturally occuring food did not splice themselves into

my genome, why should I worry about GMO genes invading my DNA? So, if

someone could explain to me how genetically modified organism genes are

unstoppable monsters because they were held in a laboratory for a short

while before going back into a cell wall....., but genes found in Nature

are AOK, please hold forth and educate me. I am old, but teachable.  What I

do know is that genes can cross the so called "barriers" of species lines

and even genus lines in Nature, without a DNA lab tech being involved.  We

saw that with the example of the Azobacter and the Rhizobium trading genes

out in the field, out in the dirt.  So if this happens in Nature...are we

to fear EVERYTHING?

Dave, you wrote, 

> The gamble here is only life on earth. Is that important to you ? It is

to 

> me. 

> 

Dave, that was a very dramatic statement.  Thank you for the histrionic and

rhetorical question - "Do I think life on earth has any importance to me?" 

As a father, a biologist, a farmer, and an organic activist with a lapel

button to prove it, what answer might I have to that question?  I think it

is very clear that I am concerned about life on earth in very many

different ways, and to different degrees.  My concern for life on earth

does not have as its prerequisite total agreement with the party line- all

of the rider amendments and ancillary issues that anti-technological,

anti-science, and anti-intellectual "Environmental Extremism" has on its

agenda

  

But when I read about or listen to dramatic statements related to the

environment or to the risks of technology, I am often reminded of the film

clip I saw from a newsreel from the 1960s.  A campus radical got up on the

steps of the administration building, and as the chanting subsided

somewhat, she proclaimed and exclaimed with the shrillest tones she could

muster that "We are probably breathing the last of the oxygen!".... That

was a classic...I will always remember it as long as I live....I will use

that statement in my kid's education under the course entitled "Clear and

Critical Thinking" 

As the ancient Bereans did, I believe we should examine the evidence

"daily, to see if these things (are) so".   I believe we should test claims

and ideas and each others statements...test all things in the light of what

we know, or at least do the best we can to ascertain what is most likely,

if we can't prove it straight away, and then be ready for new revelations

as we go along, testing them further and further. I am all for testing each

new genetically engineered product or technique, etc...each one is very

different....they are obviously not the same...they are as different as

there are the number of genes in all the organisms in the world.

Here is a neat example of ecopolitical drama.  Someone I know wanted to

illustrate how clean his compost was.  He had it analyzed for everything

under the sun. He went to a meeting of "concerned" environmentalists and

community activists.  His first slide was of the analysis of his

compost...it showed very low levels of zinc, and some chromium, and some

other elements which commonly occur on the planet earth.  There was some

stirring among the crowd....small shudders of fear about "heavy

metals"...whispers of "industrial wastes poisoning the planet"..."Love

Canal"..."Ecological Genocide"....

The next slide was a complete analysis of substance XYZ...at first

mysteriously unidentified...it contained much higher levels of zinc,

chromium, tin, nickel, selenium, copper, and other elements.  He asked the

group if they wanted this in their back yard..."No!" shrieked the

crowd....He asked them if they wanted to touch this material "Absolutely

NOT!  Protect the Children! Save the Planet!" they howled.  When asked if

they would dare injest this material, they nearly fell out of their chairs

in spasms of fear and outrage.

The next slide revealed that the mystery substance was a multivitamin that

he purchased at the local health food store.

 

Yes Dave, I think any form of technology or human activity is a gamble. 

Any form.  I dont think we should be reckless with genetic engineering, or

civil engineering, or automotive engineering, or littering, or traffic

violations...

I also think that not using technology is a decision, and the consequences

of not using an entire branch of science or a given technology is itself a

gamble.  We do not exist in a vacuum... but if we did, that too would have

its own risks and consequences.  

If we do something, it has risks. If we dont do that thing...even if we do

nothing.. we face a different set of risks. Given our present day

circumstances, "not to decide.. is itself a decision".  Not doing something

will have consequences.  Every path is frought with risks, whether you wear

Birkenstocks, or lab coats.  In my case, I have been known to wear both at

the same time...while sipping Celestial Seasonings Tea...I drew the line at

the wearing of turquois beads... and Patchouli essential oil is for my wife

to use.  

Yes indeed, Risk is the Mother of All Life.  This is Truth. 

Dave, this is fun!  Thanks for the reply.

Check with ya'll next week.  Same Bat Time. Same Bat Channel.

Ted.

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| Message 10                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

From:    "Sam Levy" 

Date:    Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:52:50 PST

Jim-

What is the minimum temperature that will sustain growth?  Are the 

hybrids different in this respect from each other and/or the parent 

breeds?

It seems to me that I've encountered references to problems of size 

variations.  Have you encountered this?

Sam

>From: Jim Sealy Jr 

 The bream don't _require_ the high temps, but bream can handle and do 

grow much faster at the higher temps .....in winter, if you want to run 

a less energy intensive operation, you can let the temps drop some

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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| Message 11                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Genetic engineering

From:    William Evans 

Date:    Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:55:43 -0800

KevinLReed wrote:

> 

> HAPPY EASTER

> 

> Oh please ...  genetic engineering does not add or eliminate genes from

> the gene pool. 

 Oh really, then how come organic farmers, trying to raise organic crops

, are finding same crops polluted w/  marker genes only carried by the

GE crops?  Why are same markers showing up in the wild?

Could it be that pollen drifts on the wind?

Ill take my corn,soybean,cotton seed w/o the RoundUp ready/Bt feature

thankyou.

billevans

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| Message 12                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Fight Gas Prices

From:    Mike Miller 

Date:    Sat, 03 Apr 1999 13:10:07 -0600

At 15:52 02-04-99 -0600, you wrote:

>

>http://www.methanol.com/ec_sales.htm

>

I think it is only fair to point out that methanol or wood alcohol is

mostly made from natural gas not the distructive distillation of trees.

Farmers of any strip are not going to get any benefit from methanol but the

oil companies would be very happy.  The one advantage of grain based

ethanol over synthetic methanol is that ethanol closes the carbon cycle

annually (except to the extent fossil fuels are used in

production/processing).  Fossil fuel based methanol puts additional carbon

to the atmosphere and does not just recycling it.

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| Message 13                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Fight Gas Prices

From:    Jon Hays 

Date:    Sat, 03 Apr 1999 14:22:47 -0700

Methanol has less BTU than ethanol and is very corrosive (methanol). John Hays

At 01:10 PM 4/3/99 -0600, you wrote:

>At 15:52 02-04-99 -0600, you wrote:

>>

>>http://www.methanol.com/ec_sales.htm

>>

>I think it is only fair to point out that methanol or wood alcohol is

>mostly made from natural gas not the distructive distillation of trees.

>Farmers of any strip are not going to get any benefit from methanol but the

>oil companies would be very happy.  The one advantage of grain based

>ethanol over synthetic methanol is that ethanol closes the carbon cycle

>annually (except to the extent fossil fuels are used in

>production/processing).  Fossil fuel based methanol puts additional carbon

>to the atmosphere and does not just recycling it.

> 

John Hays

1903 Pebble Hill Rd.

Carlsbad, NM  88220

1-505-887-0102

ICQ#  765699

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| Message 14                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Fight Gas Prices

From:    "Wendy Nagurny" 

Date:    Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:15:47 -0500

I just thought of something.  A number of years ago, I was using my MIL's

oven.  I turned it on to warm up.  In a few minutes, there was smoke pouring

out of the vent.  She was using her oven to store crackers.  I grabbed some

mitts (fortunately she also stored her cookie sheets in the oven) and

carried a flaming box of oyster crackers out of the house on a cookie sheet.

That box burned for over twenty minutes.  Flour fires were also a problem in

grain mills.

Has anybody ever investigated using a wheat flour based fuel?

Wendy

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| Message 15                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

From:    "Uwe Bruenjes" 

Date:    Sat, 03 Apr 99 12:56:39 PST

Hi Ken,

it's almost time to eat, and you tell me about good-tasting fish!  Wel=

l, I just looked up the Spanish translation for "bream", and this fish =

(besugo) also here has a reputation for being very tasty.  - Some time =

ago, somebody said that tilapia improves it's taste when you leave it wit=

hout food in salt water for about 2-3 days. Do you think that still so =

bream is better? Just for a comparison.

>From what Jim said so far, it looks like bream grow very fast; now what =

about depredators? If I understood correctly, it's always good to have =

a few of them to get rid of too weak, ill or otherwise inferior individua=

ls. Which (preferrably tasty) species would you recommend to feed on thos=

e bream?

(Hurrying to the dinner table!)

Uwe

----------

> Hi Uwe, Bream are the best tasting fresh water fish around,in my opinio=

n...

        (snipped)

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| Message 16                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

From:    Jim Sealy Jr 

Date:    Sat, 03 Apr 1999 19:02:23 -0600

Weight gain is good. Less than 1 year to good filet size

Taste is great.

Feeding habits is omnivore in wild, but readily accepts floating

pellets.

Is in commercial pond culture here, MS.

Jim

Uwe Bruenjes wrote:

> 

> Hi Jim and others,

> 

> what about weight gain, taste, feeding habits (omnivore?), etc.?

> 

> Uwe

> ----------

> > <<  Is anyone else raising hybrid bream rather than tilapia in an aquaponics

> >  system?

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| Message 17                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Hybrid bream and aquaponics

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:12:10 EST

In a message dated 4/3/99 5:51:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

uweb@megalink.net.mx writes:

<<  it's almost time to eat, and you tell me about good-tasting fish!  

Well, I just looked up the Spanish translation for "bream", and this fish 

(besugo) also here has a reputation for being very tasty.  - Some time ago, 

somebody said that tilapia improves it's taste when you leave it without food 

in salt water for about 2-3 days. Do you think that still so bream is better? 

Just for a comparison.

 I've never tried the salt water trick for Tilapia,so I can't give an honest 

opinion on that,although all my life,I heard people suggest soaking 

everything in salt water,to remove so called wild or game flavors,frankly I 

like wild flavors like venison,if I wanted it to taste like Beef,I would just 

buy Beef,so I Ignore salt water treatments!

 From what Jim said so far, it looks like bream grow very fast; now what 

about depredators? If I understood correctly, it's always good to have a few 

of them to get rid of too weak, ill or otherwise inferior individuals. Which 

(preferrably tasty) species would you recommend to feed on those bream?

 >>

Largemouth Bass(Black Bass), or Hybrid Sun Bass will keep them in check,and 

are very hardy fish.As a matter of fact,I caught 23 Hybrid and White Bass,3 

Crappie,and one big Carp today,so I'm headed to the table also,I'm not going 

to remove them from the planet! I'm just going to rearrange their Genetic 

make-up!Hey wait a minute,I might have just made an important discovery! 

Could this be the missing link Darwin was looking for? Could this be how a 

fish leaves the water,walks up-right and turns into a man?Yes! Yes! Yes! 

thats it, it wasn't the Ice Age,or a comet,or U.F.O.'s,it was a fisherman. Oh 

no! Now we've got another problem! Which came first,the fish or the 

fisherman?I'm sorry I got carried away,it must have been,the hydrocarbons,or 

maybe the U.V. rays from the Ozone hole,or the Methanol fumes,or the heavy 

metals,or the lead poison from my fishing weights,or it may be, one of those 

God-Awful Genes got in my Jeans.Now I'll never be able to eat fish again,they 

might be one of my cousins! Sorry Uwe gotta go to store now and buy some 

GranolaBars to eat with my Hushpuppies. So long from the Twilight Zone Ken

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| Message 18                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Aquaponics without eating the fish..

From:    Jim Sealy Jr 

Date:    Sat, 03 Apr 1999 21:45:12 -0600

Hey Kevin,

I think there's probably as much (or more) money in ornamental fish as

food fish.. 

I guess you need to plan on making connections with the retail folks

selling plants for water gardens. Or talk a couple garden centers who

don't sell water plants and fish into starting selling the fish and

plants you'll grow for them.

Jim

KevinLReed wrote:

> 

> HAPPY EASTER



> 

> A Happy Easter message from Kevin < smile>

> Kevin

> PS. I am trying to revamp the aquaponics system to work with other

> than fish as my fiancee doesn't want to make money from the killing

> of live animals ... lol

> Keep up the excellent thinking

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| Message 19                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Genetic engineering

From:    Dave Miller 

Date:    Sat, 03 Apr 1999 23:42:34 -0500

Gosh, I wish we didn't have to introduce the windrift/pollen shift from

GE to non-GE crops but as long as we have the topic going, would you

mind farting in another direction away from my wind. Actually this does

bother me more than second hand smoke might (which is a temporary

inconvenience) but now you are affecting my rights toward a certain

purity of my crops without my permission.

Ted, I want say that you have altered my perception greatly, as in maybe

we ARE meant to alter organisms with or without a god (heck we could

very well could be god) but the perception is what is being argued. My

bad mouth prohibits me from saying more.

So assuming that we can research and experiment as anything goes, what

is next? In actuality I appreciate what you wrote, I must of slept that

class, in fact I know I did and so you have presented a clear argument.

I like your style.....

Dave

_______________________________________

«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

A "green" home remodeler

A father of 2 cockatiels

An organic farmer

A veggie drummer/keyboardist

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| Message 20                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Gravel beds (was Tomato Varieties)

From:    "William Brown" 

Date:    Sat, 3 Apr 1999 11:12:14 -0000

Look into the coconut fiber (coir, coco-peat) mixed with perlite etc.  We

like to mix coir with sunshine mix 5 at 1:1 for general seeding purposes.

Works better than either one alone.

William Brown mahiwai@cmpmail.com

(aka lettuce@hilo.net)

S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124

Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/



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