Aquaponics Digest - Tue 04/06/99
Message 1: Re: redclaw identification
from "Capista"
Message 2: Fwd. Start up
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 3: Ref: Albert Capista's question
from Peggy & Emmett
Message 4: what to feed tilapia?
from "Joe Insana"
Message 5: Re:aquaponics ?not? organic?
from William Evans
Message 6: Re: what to feed tilapia?
from JobieEagan@webtv.net
Message 7: Re: what to feed tilapia?
from STUNTTMAN
Message 8: Re: redclaw identification
from "Uwe Bruenjes"
Message 9: unsubscribe
from "Marten Jenkins"
Message 10: Re: Ref: Albert Capista's question
from STUNTTMAN
Message 11: RE: what to feed Tilapia?
from "Ronald W. Brooks"
Message 12: Re: redclaw identification
from Tom Alexander
Message 13: Re: what to feed Tilapia?
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 14: Re: Re:aquaponics ?not? organic?
from "Dale Robinson"
Message 15: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
from Dave Miller
Message 16: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 17: Re: what to feed tilapia?
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 18: Re: More GE news
from "Uwe Bruenjes"
Message 19: Re: what to feed tilapia?
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 20: Re: redclaw identification
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 21: Re: More GE news
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 22: Re: Fwd. Start up
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 23: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
from "A Pilling"
Message 24: Re: what to feed Tilapia?
from Jim Sealy Jr
Message 25: Re: Fwd. Start up
from Jim Sealy Jr
Message 26: unsuscribe
from "MacQuarrie, Carla"
Message 27: Re: More GE news
from doelle
Message 28: Re: Re:aquaponics ?not? organic?
from doelle
Message 29: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 30: Re: Fwd. Start up
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 31: Re: redclaw identification
from Gordon Watkins
Message 32: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 33: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
from Gordon Watkins
Message 34: Re: Fwd. Start up
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 35: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 36: Re: redclaw identification
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 37: Re: More GE news
from "Uwe Bruenjes"
Message 38: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 39: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
from "TGTX"
Message 40: Re: Organic Farming
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 41: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 42: Re: Fwd. Start up
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 43: Re: Fwd. Start up
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 44: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 45: Start up
from Craig & Robin Prince
Message 46: Re: Fwd. Start up
from KLOTTTRUE
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: redclaw identification
From: "Capista"
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 07:33:24 -0400
Hi Folks,
My name is Albert Capista, and I live in the heart of New York's Finger
Lakes. We are
in the process of constructing two green houses for organically-grown
tilapia. We are very enthused about aquaponics, but when we approached our
local certifier, NOFA, we got as rather cold rection. We were told that
because water is not a natural medium to grow plants, they were not
interested in certifying aquaponics ventures as organic.
Anyone have any info on the organic issue for hydroponics? Is anyone doing
aquaponics
oin a strict organic way?
We are enjoying this discussion group! The wonders of email.......
Albert for TBurg
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| Message 2 |
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Subject: Fwd. Start up
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 09:03:02 -0500
Think this was meant to go to the list. Paula
-----------------------------------------------
>Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 21:07:35 -0700
>From: Craig & Robin Prince
>Subject: Start up
>To: S & S Aqua Farm
>
>Hear are some great questions for you all. I am building a start up
>system with two 55 gal drums. How many fish do I start with and how
>many plants should I have ( talapia & bib lettuce ). The growing media
>I am planning is perlite. All comments are welcome- please- :-).
>
>" Give a man a fish - feed him for a day,
> Teach a man to fish - feed him for life"
>
>Thanks everybody
>Craig
>
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Ref: Albert Capista's question
From: Peggy & Emmett
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 10:55:53 -0400
Florida Organic Growers has a provision for hydroponics. When I last
talked to the Director he said what I was doing (aquaponics) sounded
organic to him...Emmett
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Subject: what to feed tilapia?
From: "Joe Insana"
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 11:01:59 EDT
I have recently received my first (small)shippment of tilapia and have
been feeding them pellet food to get them started. What does everyone
feed their tilapia and where is the sorce for this food?
Thank you
Joe Insana
New London, OH
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Subject: Re:aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: William Evans
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 08:20:27 -0700
theoretically , couldn't one structure a system whereby effluent was
still utilized for crop irrigation/feeding.....but the plants would be
grown in "soil"? Not at all like traditional water /nutrient/solution
bath associated w/ the bulk of the discussion w/i this forum.
billevans
wrote:
>
> We are very enthused about aquaponics, but when we approached our
> local certifier, NOFA, we got as rather cold rection. We were told that
> because water is not a natural medium to grow plants, they were not
> interested in certifying aquaponics ventures as organic.
>
>
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Subject: Re: what to feed tilapia?
From: JobieEagan@webtv.net
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:41:43 -0400 (EDT)
Would there be an advantage in growing the expensive tilatpia I see
advertised over those I could catch nearby? I'd like to try two raised
pools. They're 25 ft by 4 ft deep. Hybrid bream would grow in one and
tilapia in the other. Would I feed them the same? Thanks, Trudy
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Subject: Re: what to feed tilapia?
From: STUNTTMAN
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:31:44 EDT
feed them purina aquamax.
get a hold of purina they will tell you who the area rep is and go from there
stunttman
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Subject: Re: redclaw identification
From: "Uwe Bruenjes"
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 99 10:47:23 PDT
Hi Gordon,
thanks alot for the explication! Is that the one Michael Strates praised =
so much a while ago?
----------
> Hello Uwe,
> While there are several commercial varieties of Australian crawfish=
, there
> is only one Redclaw (Cherax quadricarinatus). Others include the Yabbie
> (Cherax destructor), and Marron (Cherax tenuimanus).
> Gordon
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Subject: Re: Ref: Albert Capista's question
From: STUNTTMAN
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:46:15 EDT
im in southern ca and have been considered organic by the state of ca.
aquaponics is about as organic as you can get. where else can you grow plants
without dirt,chemicals,fertilizer.who knows whats in the dirt,chemicals,and
fertilizers well let me tell you there are alot of things in there that you
probably dont want to eat.with all of the progression in technology weve lost
what we had to begin with, that is good clean pure food thats why cancer and
others we dont understand.lets get back to the basics, the geneious of
simplicity, use a controlled environment putting nothing but fish food with
no additive and grow some good clean organic food products. that is what s&s
aquafarm is all about
stunttman
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Subject: RE: what to feed Tilapia?
From: "Ronald W. Brooks"
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:04:43 -0400
Joe
I started my fry on Tetra color bits from the local pet shop . It is a
crumble food with 47.5 % protein .5 - 1 mm in size . It is expensive this
way . or you can order from nelson and sons silver cup feeds.
Currently I am feeding Silver cup to my Tilapia in small orders of 40# it
runs .99 a pound delivered.
Your not that far from me so if you want to get together and compare
Ron
The One Who Walks Two Paths
Oberlin, Ohio
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| Message 12 |
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Subject: Re: redclaw identification
From: Tom Alexander
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:38:44 -0700 (PDT)
On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Capista wrote:
> Anyone have any info on the organic issue for hydroponics? Is anyone doing
> aquaponics in a strict organic way?
The problem is most organic certifying organizations look down on
hydroponics and are unwilling to work with growers using it. For instance,
vermiculite and perlite are consider organic but expanded clay pellets and
rockwool are not. All of the mediums are made using basically the
same super heating process. The problem is with the people in the organic
organizations and their preconceived attitudes of hydroponics as only a
chemical growing system. So it is going to take educating them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Alexander, Publisher PO Box 1027
Growing EDGE magazine Corvallis, OR 97339
talexan@peak.org 541.757.8477
================= http://www.growingedge.com =================
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Subject: Re: what to feed Tilapia?
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 13:41:52 -0400
Catfish pellets cost $.24/# in our local feed store. I believe they
come in different sizes, floating and non-floating. Floating is
better. The "fines" (crumbs in the bottom of the bag) can be used for
the fingerlings.
Adriana
> Currently I am feeding Silver cup to my Tilapia in small orders of 40# it
> runs .99 a pound delivered.
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Subject: Re: Re:aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: "Dale Robinson"
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:04:41 -0500
I think that at some point we have to decide what organic is. Some say
organic is the growing crops in an earth friendly fashion. Others feel
that dirt has to be involved to make it organic. I for one am in favor of
the earth friendly version.
Another approach to this issue is that hydroponics is better then organic
and we label it as hydroponic and don't worry about organic certification.
I don't really understand why there is such a problem with the use of water
as a medium for carrying nutrients to the plants, After all the soil has to
break down to inorganic compounds in order to be used by the plants anyway.
Some people I have talked to DO have organic certification with hydroponics
systems. Perhaps your problem in a local one and they do not understand
what hydroponics is all about. If I had to choose between the two labels,
hydroponics would win every time.
Those that I have seen do hydroponics in dirt have not been very successful.
Pea gravel will do a much better job if you want to go that route.
I have been talking hydroponics here but aquaponics is the combination of
hydroponics and aquaculture and it seems we're talking about the hydroponics
portion of the system. Perhaps you should go ahead with the aquaponics and
reapply for organic certification later with hopes that the NOFA gets a
better education. Perhaps you should ask them what their definition of
organic is and show them how aquaponics meets ALL those requirements. By
the way, the statement "water is not a natural medium to grow plants" is a
false statement. Soil is only a support for the plants. Water carries the
nutrients to the plants. Try growing plants without water!
Best regards
Dale Robinson
prof-robinson@worldnet.att.net
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Subject: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: Dave Miller
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:23:25 -0400
Hear Hear!
Aquaponics and hydroponics are organic in an earthfriendly way though
the NOFA folk might be worrying about the chemicals being used. I for
one would look for a solution free of pesticides, insecticides and
tainted animal waste (BGH, steroids, antibiotics).
Certainly plants need nitrogen, potassium, etc. and a certain ph range
AND they need water. What are these sources and are they safe? Maybe the
NOFA person thought about these but did not vocalise such. I would not
consider bonemeal or bloodmeal organic unless from free range animals.
Just thoughts though you should teach and reapply for certification.
Explain how you are balanced with the Earth, fairly closed loop, etc.
Show them what nutrients you use.
--
Dave
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Subject: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:34:46 EDT
Hello everyone, I mentioned it once before, we need to present Aquaponics to
the world,not just as hydroponics,because there are some hydroponic systems
in use which use chemicals,getting away from chemicals is what is so
appealing to people about Organically grown food,there is a good chance the
people in Alberts case don't even know what Aquaponics is,or how it
operates,if you explain to them how the system would fail if chemicals were
added,they would understand that it is the most Natural way food can be
grown,the dirt is nothing more than a holder,for the nutrients and water,put
the word out,if you live in a small town,let your local paper know what
you're doing,most of them are looking for something to write about,I have had
several small business's before,and they always came out and did a write-up
free,this way you can educate the public,and get some free advertizing to
boot,I was talking to the Senior Fisheries Biologist for Wildlife Resources
Division today Scott Robinson,and he had never heard of Aquaponics to prove
my point. Ken
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Subject: Re: what to feed tilapia?
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:40:28 EDT
In a message dated 4/6/99 12:52:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
STUNTTMAN writes:
<< feed them purina aquamax.
>>
Someone said a couple of weeks ago,Purina sold their Fish feed division,and
their feed did not perform as well as it had in the past! Ken
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Subject: Re: More GE news
From: "Uwe Bruenjes"
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 99 11:56:54 PDT
Hi Dave (aka "recycler"),
Good point! Though fish normally isn't considered a "farm animal", it's =
still an animal (and from a biological point of view, so are humans). Mos=
t likely, the press people just didn't get the point that the GE modified=
feed for the animals is the problem; not the place where they are. Just =
think of this: in India a cow is not a farm animal, but ranges freely on =
the streets and about everywhere. Do you think that just for this reason =
it wouldn't be possible that the GE modified feed could cause the same =
problem over there, if somebody fed them this stuff?
The whole GE issue makes me remember that gonorrea deal. For decades it =
was "a proven fact" that you could only acquire it through sexual interco=
urse. Anybody who didn't agree, was considered an idiot. That went on unt=
il a famous MD got it in a public restroom. He then moved heaven and hell=
to prove the opposite. Finally he succeeded, and from then on, everybody=
who didn't believe that doctor, was considered an idiot...
When will people begin to understand that we can never know in advance, =
which are the issues we still don't know? Is it so hard to understand tha=
t a new science impossibly can prove that everything is ok, if they dind'=
t have the time to see the negative consecuences of their doings? We all =
know that chemestry has caused many problems to our health and the enviro=
nment as a whole. Of course none of the chemists wanted to do that, but =
still so they called us"idiots" because we didn't accept their "proves" =
that everything was just fine. Can't some people understand that this his=
tory now is repeating itself?
Uwe (still growling)
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Subject: Re: what to feed tilapia?
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:52:07 EDT
In a message dated 4/6/99 12:42:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
JobieEagan@webtv.net writes:
<<
Would there be an advantage in growing the expensive tilatpia I see
advertised over those I could catch nearby? I'd like to try two raised
pools. They're 25 ft by 4 ft deep. Hybrid bream would grow in one and
tilapia in the other. Would I feed them the same? Thanks, Trudy
>>
Hi trudy, from what I have learned from the people on this list,is that all
male fish grow faster,and also be careful on what type of liners your pools
have. Ken
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Subject: Re: redclaw identification
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:46:04 EDT
In a message dated 4/6/99 1:39:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, talexan@peak.org
writes:
<< Is anyone doing
> aquaponics in a strict organic way?
>>
It is my understanding,that finding organic fish food is the last obstacle to
overcome,in order to become totally Organic.Ken
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Subject: Re: More GE news
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:02:42 EDT
In a message dated 4/6/99 3:53:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
uweb@megalink.net.mx writes:
<<
Good point! Though fish normally isn't considered a "farm animal", it's
still an animal (and from a biological point of view, so are humans). Most
likely, the press people just didn't get the point that the GE modified feed
for the animals is the problem; not the place where they are. Just think of
this: in India a cow is not a farm animal, but ranges freely on the streets
and about everywhere. Do you think that just for this reason it wouldn't be
possible that the GE modified feed could cause the same problem over there,
if somebody fed them this stuff?
>>
No,they don't eat cows in India,they worship them,the people in India don't
have anything to put in their guts,but the cows do.Ken
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Subject: Re: Fwd. Start up
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:09:25 EDT
Hello people,I have a question,If I decide to grow Hybrid bream instead of
Tilapia,what,and or will I need to do about Algae in my tanks,one day my
water was crystal clear,the next it was solid green,Temps about 82 ? thanks
Ken
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Subject: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: "A Pilling"
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:26:37 -0600
Sorry, this is long-winded! Actually, "dirt" or soil, is a lot more
complicated than that. It may be a support medium for plants, but in
temperate regions it is also the host to a large percentage of the biomass
of a healthy ecosystem. Healthy organic soil contains vast quantities of
various microfauna (worms, nematodes, arthropods and mollusk fauna) and
microorganisms (yeastes, fungi, bacteria algae, protozoans etc). whose
actions, interactions and functions we are only beginning to understand.
The least of the functions is to convert organic debris to nutrients that
can be taken up by plants.
Another interesting point is that healthy soils actually breathe. They have
an anaerobic/aerobic cycle which relates to the necessary exchange of gasses
between the soil and the atmosphere and to chemical shifts in the
decomposition of organic matter. Certain gasses produced in the soil by
microorganisms are important for plant growth and may be important for our
health and well being. Soil IS a living community, not just the mineral
matter that that community lives in. The water that percolates through soil
becomes a living soup that feeds plants and other organisms in the soil.
The organic movement promotes different gardening practices that use and
don't destroy this living system, but it is still a relatively new movement.
It seems enough to me that there are plants that grow in natural "organic"
conditions in water, sometimes without soil for support. If an aquaponics
grower can create a closed growing system that enhances the local
environment by using "waste", they are probably doing as well as an organic
grower using soil. The fact is that water or soil can be contaminated with
pesticides, etc. If other livestock being fed non-organic feed can't be
classified as organic, probably the same should hold true for farmed fish.
It would affect the attached hydroponics system, too. It doesn't seem like
it would be that difficult to test or regulate. I think it will be difficult
to convince some county or state officials that growers using this system
could be classified as "organic" until the term "organic" gets officially
defined. I also think that trying to argue that soil is just a support
system for plants won't hold water (no pun intended). It's apples and
oranges. They need to be convinced that apples and oranges are both tasty.
Amy
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Subject: Re: what to feed Tilapia?
From: Jim Sealy Jr
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:29:20 -0500
I'm paying $.126/lb. here by the bag for 28% protein Clover Brand
floating fish feed. It's listed for a number of fish including tilapia
and bream. I run it through a grinder for the larger fingerlings and
never have had a problem. We use their 40% protein fingerling mix as
starter.
Jim
Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:
>
> Catfish pellets cost $.24/# in our local feed store. I believe they
> come in different sizes, floating and non-floating. Floating is
> better. The "fines" (crumbs in the bottom of the bag) can be used for
> the fingerlings.
>
> Adriana
>
> > Currently I am feeding Silver cup to my Tilapia in small orders of 40# it
> > runs .99 a pound delivered.
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Subject: Re: Fwd. Start up
From: Jim Sealy Jr
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:32:28 -0500
Short answer: Get more plants growing in your beds!
The algae bloom is a dramatic indicator of excess nitrates in your water
from my experience.
Jim
(waiting to see what other suggestions pop up)
KLOTTTRUE wrote:
>
> Hello people,I have a question,If I decide to grow Hybrid bream instead of
> Tilapia,what,and or will I need to do about Algae in my tanks,one day my
> water was crystal clear,the next it was solid green,Temps about 82 ? thanks
> Ken
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Subject: Re: More GE news
From: doelle
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 08:01:13 +1000
It is very encouraging to see that my earlier warnings are now supported by
the News media.
It is sometimes disappointing to realise that warnings from scientists are
attacked and classified as being scaremongering, but when the News media
expresses the same view, people listen.
The main thing is that we are getting cautious and do not believe those who
want to make money. It all has to have a good reason and has to be extremely
well tested.
Stick to the normal breeding and the natural fish and leave the genetically
engineered more fleshy tilapia to those who like to take the risk. FAIR ?
Regards Horst
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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Subject: Re: Re:aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: doelle
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 08:14:04 +1000
Dear Dale,
>I think that at some point we have to decide what organic is. Some say
>organic is the growing crops in an earth friendly fashion. Others feel
>that dirt has to be involved to make it organic. I for one am in favor of
>the earth friendly version.
In my opinion, the word 'organic' means nothing else than 'biomass' or
'composted biomass'. It originally has nothing to do with dirt.
Over the years certain words become fashionable and other not. The word
'organic' was created to fight against the 'inorganic' , which are the
fertilisers from industry. This all came after the socalled 'Green
Revolution' was supposed to help us feed the people, but destroyed our soils.
Composting is, of course known for centuries and occurs naturally in nature
every day.
The extreme danger comes, however, from those over-enthusiastic people, who
now add manure to the term 'organic'. That is new and because of this,
certification is required.
Composting kills pathogens and thus is ok as organic fertiliser, but NOT
when you add manure.
I think it is very important to realise the 'evolution' and 'erosion' of the
original meaning of 'organic'.
Best regards
Horst
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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| Message 29 |
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Subject: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 18:27:57 -0400
I also think that trying to argue that soil is just a support
> system for plants won't hold water (no pun intended).
Actually,
Our sandy soils here in Florida are so devoid of naturally derived
nutrients that ALL farming activities are really hydroponic, with the
"soil" strictly providing the support for the plant and the nutrients
delivered through irrigation. So what is the different between these
practices and aquaponics or hydroponics? There are a lot of semantic
games at play in the whole organic certification process. What is
amazing are the inconsistencies, there are certifiers who will approve
hydroponic installations as organic and others won't.
Adriana
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| Message 30 |
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Subject: Re: Fwd. Start up
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 18:44:55 -0400
Ken,
How much light is getting into your tanks? I had an algae problem with
my fiberglass nutrient tank which was only slightly translucent. I
solved the problem by wrapping it in a reflective "space blanket" which
looks like reflective bubble-wrap from Home Depot. It totally blocked
the light infiltration and dropped the temperature in the tank
dramatically. Viola! No more algae.
Adriana
KLOTTTRUE wrote:
>
> Hello people,I have a question,If I decide to grow Hybrid bream instead of
> Tilapia,what,and or will I need to do about Algae in my tanks,one day my
> water was crystal clear,the next it was solid green,Temps about 82 ? thanks
> Ken
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| Message 31 |
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Subject: Re: redclaw identification
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 18:24:13 -0500
I think he was working with Yabbies. Michael?
Gordon
Uwe Bruenjes wrote:
> Hi Gordon,
>
> thanks alot for the explication! Is that the one Michael Strates praised
so much a while ago?
>
> ----------
> > Hello Uwe,
> > While there are several commercial varieties of Australian crawfish,
there
> > is only one Redclaw (Cherax quadricarinatus). Others include the Yabbie
> > (Cherax destructor), and Marron (Cherax tenuimanus).
> > Gordon
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| Message 32 |
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Subject: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:28:26 EDT
In a message dated 4/6/99 6:27:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gutierrez-lagatta@home.com writes:
<< Actually,
Our sandy soils here in Florida are so devoid of naturally derived
nutrients that ALL farming activities are really hydroponic, with the
"soil" strictly providing the support for the plant and the nutrients
delivered through irrigation. So what is the different between these
practices and aquaponics or hydroponics? There are a lot of semantic
games at play in the whole organic certification process. What is
amazing are the inconsistencies, there are certifiers who will approve
hydroponic installations as organic and others won't.
>>
Adrianna,this really surprises me,I've always thought Florida had great soil!
Everything looks so lush.Why doesn't it have natural nutrients? Thanks Ken
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| Message 33 |
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Subject: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 18:46:09 -0500
Thanks for taking the time to point out the intricacies of the web of life in
healthy soils, Amy. The attitude that soil is just a prop for plants is the sort
of view that created much of the problems of modern agriculture, IMHO.
One of the problems I have with the term "aquaponics" is that it is too
closely associated with hydroponics, a term which carries much baggage,
particularly among organic devotees. This is one reason why certification is a
thorny issue. I think aquaponics is much different from hydroponics in that it
depends upon a complex living ecosystem rather than a short list of refined
chemical nutrients. I think it is presumptuous to assume that we can provide all
the necessary components for a healthy cropping system from a bag, even if the
crop grows, looks, and tastes great. I know some of you hydroponic
practitioners will take me to task, just as chemical farmers take me to task,
but hey, there's room for everyone.
Remember that organic certification is strictly a marketing tool and nothing
more. If you have a lucrative market that will pay you well for your products,
why bother with certification? It's expensive, involves lots of paperwork, and
is generally a real pain. But, for me, it allows me to sell my products for
twice the commercial prices so it's worth the effort. Incidentally, for those of
you who aren't aware, there is federal legislation coming down the pike that
does define "organic" at great length and I think aquaponics will eventually be
an accepted growing system, if it can be successfully disassociated from
hydroponics.
As a consumer, my concern is mainly with labeling, which is what organic
certification is all about. I don't object to seeing hydroponic tomatoes as long
as they are labeled as such so I can choose for myself. I do wonder what happens
to those hydroponic nutrients when they're spent though.
Gordon
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| Message 34 |
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Subject: Re: Fwd. Start up
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:24:38 EDT
In a message dated 4/6/99 6:44:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gutierrez-lagatta@home.com writes:
<< How much light is getting into your tanks? I had an algae problem with
my fiberglass nutrient tank which was only slightly translucent. I
solved the problem by wrapping it in a reflective "space blanket" which
looks like reflective bubble-wrap from Home Depot. It totally blocked
the light infiltration and dropped the temperature in the tank
dramatically. Viola! No more algae.
Adriana
>>
Hi,Adrianna,my tanks are black,so they only get light from the top,do you
think shading would help?How big are your tanks? Thanks for answering Ken
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| Message 35 |
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Subject: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:46:37 EDT
In a message dated 4/6/99 4:26:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
apilling@email.msn.com writes:
<<
Sorry, this is long-winded! Actually, "dirt" or soil, is a lot more
complicated than that. It may be a support medium for plants, but in
temperate regions it is also the host to a large percentage of the biomass
of a healthy ecosystem. Healthy organic soil contains vast quantities of
various microfauna (worms, nematodes, arthropods and mollusk fauna) and
microorganisms (yeastes, fungi, bacteria algae, protozoans etc). whose
actions, interactions and functions we are only beginning to understand.
The least of the functions is to convert organic debris to nutrients that
can be taken up by plants.
>>
Hi Amy,I may not have the answers,but I sure do know how to ask the
questions,that bring out the best out of you guys! Thanks for the reply,I'll
file this one and read it many times over. Thanks again Ken
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| Message 36 |
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Subject: Re: redclaw identification
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:39:32 EDT
In a message dated 4/6/99 7:26:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gwatkins@yournet.com writes:
<< I think he was working with Yabbies. Michael?
Gordon >>
Hope they didn't pull him in! Haven't heard much from down under lately.And
what about that guy from the north country,and the Frisco Kid,and the Texas
Ranger?What about Paula from S&S? By the way is there really a Tom from S&S ?
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| Message 37 |
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Subject: Re: More GE news
From: "Uwe Bruenjes"
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 99 16:29:01 PDT
You're right, Ken, in India it's more likely that people get those gens =
directly in their guts, than through the cows. Same... (ehem) manure!
Uwe
----------
> No,they don't eat cows in India,they worship them,the people in India =
don't
> have anything to put in their guts,but the cows do.Ken
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| Message 38 |
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Subject: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:19:45 EDT
In a message dated 4/6/99 6:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
doelle@ozemail.com.au writes:
<< The extreme danger comes, however, from those over-enthusiastic people,
who now add manure to the term 'organic'. That is new and because of this,
certification is required.
Composting kills pathogens and thus is ok as organic fertiliser, but NOT
when you add manure.
>>
Hello Horst, Is it the pathgens in the manure that are dangerous? If so would
there be any benefit to adding the manure to the pile as it composts,since
you said composting kills pathogens,in other words isn't that what
Pasturizing does? Thanks Ken
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| Message 39 |
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Subject: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: "TGTX"
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:24:11 -0500
Hi Amy.
I had to chirp in here, since I saw so much discussion on this topic.
Amy, you wrote:
> Sorry, this is long-winded! Actually, "dirt" or soil, is a lot more
> complicated than that. It may be a support medium for plants, but in
> temperate regions it is also the host to a large percentage of the
biomass
> of a healthy ecosystem. Healthy organic soil contains vast quantities of
> various microfauna (worms, nematodes, arthropods and mollusk fauna) and
> microorganisms (yeastes, fungi, bacteria algae, protozoans etc). whose
> actions, interactions and functions we are only beginning to understand.
> The least of the functions is to convert organic debris to nutrients that
> can be taken up by plants.
In this forum and in the articles I have written, I have many times pointed
out the extremely diverse and complex community of microorganisms that
inhabit the pea gravel (or perlite, etc.) growing media commonly used in
aquaponics systems. We can examine a myriad of organisms - everything from
algae, to fungi, to nitrifiers to heterotrophic bacteria from all walks of
life to earthworms- and all the flora and fauna in between....When people
say plants in such systems are growing in pure water and nutrient
solutions, they really don't know what they are talking about.
There are plenty of niches and microzones for both aerobic and anaerobic
microorganisms and the kinds of gas exchange, nutrient recycling, nutrient
stabilization, and transformation that we see in nature in many different
kinds of ecosystems. The aquaponic ecosystem (if I may be so presumptuous
as to lump them all into one class for the sake of discussion) has many
elements in common with lentic, lotic, riverine, lacustrine, forest humus,
wetlands, beach, surf, and agricultural soil ecosystems- both chemically
and biologically. The neat thing is that these ecosystem structure and
functional elements are present in such a (relatively) small geographic
space.
My aquaponics greenhouse system is organically certified- for the plants-
as are a number of other aquaponics systems across the U.S.
Aquaponics is not Hydroponics. Period.
Ted.
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| Message 40 |
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Subject: Re: Organic Farming
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:13:28 EDT
Four questions,1.Can you produce as much organically?2.Does it cost as much
to produce the same amount as with other methods?3. Does it take more or less
time?4.Do you have to have more acreage?
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| Message 41 |
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Subject: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 20:45:31 -0400
Ken,
We don't have soil, we have sand! Things grow well because of ample
sunlight and our warm climate.
Adriana
> Adrianna,this really surprises me,I've always thought Florida had great soil!
> Everything looks so lush.Why doesn't it have natural nutrients? Thanks Ken
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| Message 42 |
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Subject: Re: Fwd. Start up
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 20:47:19 -0400
Yes, Ken I believe your tanks should be under some kind of shade cover.
My nutrient tank is only 350 gallons.
Adriana
> Hi,Adrianna,my tanks are black,so they only get light from the top,do you
> think shading would help?How big are your tanks? Thanks for answering Ken
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| Message 43 |
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Subject: Re: Fwd. Start up
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:16:29 EDT
In a message dated 4/6/99 4:35:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jimsealyjr@who.net writes:
<< Short answer: Get more plants growing in your beds!
The algae bloom is a dramatic indicator of excess nitrates in your water
from my experience.
Jim >>
Thanks Jim, Ken
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| Message 44 |
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Subject: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:19:26 EDT
In a message dated 4/6/99 8:24:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ground@thrifty.net writes:
<< Aquaponics is not Hydroponics. Period.
>>
Sorry Ted,Ken
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| Message 45 |
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Subject: Start up
From: Craig & Robin Prince
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 20:18:00 -0700
Hello everyone
>Hear are some great questions for you all. I am building a start up
>system with two 55 gal drums. How many fish do I start with and how
>many plants should I have ( talapia & bib lettuce ). The growing media
>I am planning is perlite. All comments are welcome- please- :-).
>
>" Give a man a fish - feed him for a day,
> Teach a man to fish - feed him for life"
>
>Thanks everybody
>Craig
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| Message 46 |
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Subject: Re: Fwd. Start up
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:44:41 EDT
In a message dated 4/6/99 8:47:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gutierrez-lagatta@home.com writes:
<<
Yes, Ken I believe your tanks should be under some kind of shade cover.
My nutrient tank is only 350 gallons.
>>
Thanks Adriana,Ken
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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