Aquaponics Digest - Sun 04/11/99




Message   1: Re: redclaw identification

             from "vpage" 

Message   2: Re: redclaw identification

             from "vpage" 

Message   3: Paludarium (was "Re: Getting started")

             from Chris Hedemark 

Message   4: organic feed (was "Re: Genetic Engineering")

             from Chris Hedemark 

Message   5: Re: Aquaponics without eating the fish..

             from Chris Hedemark 

Message   6: Re: redclaw identification

             from "William Brown" 

Message   7: Re: redclaw identification

             from "William Brown" 

Message   8: Re: Fish Waste

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message   9: Re: Aquatic microbiology again. Was: redclaw identification

             from "TGTX" 

Message  10: Re: Aquatic microbiology again. Was: redclaw identification

             from "TGTX" 

Message  11: Re: Fish Waste

             from doelle 

Message  12: Re: Aquatic microbiology again. Was: redclaw identification

             from doelle 

Message  13: Re: Aquatic MYSTERY

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message  14: Re: Fish Waste

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message  15: Re: Aquatic microbiology again. Was: redclaw identification

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message  16: Re: Fish Waste

             from "TGTX" 

Message  17: Re: Aquatic MYSTERY

             from "TGTX" 

Message  18: Re: Aquatic MYSTERY

             from KLOTTTRUE

Message  19: Re: Aquatic MYSTERY

             from "TGTX" 

Message  20: Re: Aquaponics Start - up

             from "tess" 

Message  21: 

             from sbonney@iquest.net

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| Message 1                                                           |

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Subject: Re: redclaw identification

From:    "vpage" 

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:13:44 -0600

I agree that rockwool is not "organic". I live near a rockwool plant and it

is a disgrace and an eyesore.

I wonder if coir could be certified? It works better than rockwool, has a

natural anti-bacterial quality and can be reused without damage to the crop.

It is very expensive and has te embodied enrgy of transport for most of

us...

vpage

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| Message 2                                                           |

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Subject: Re: redclaw identification

From:    "vpage" 

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:13:44 -0600

I agree that rockwool is not "organic". I live near a rockwool plant and it

is a disgrace and an eyesore.

I wonder if coir could be certified? It works better than rockwool, has a

natural anti-bacterial quality and can be reused without damage to the crop.

It is very expensive and has te embodied enrgy of transport for most of

us...

vpage

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| Message 3                                                           |

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Subject: Paludarium (was "Re: Getting started")

From:    Chris Hedemark 

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:00:14 -0400

mark stephens wrote:

> I am in the process of setting up a tropical fish aquarium and thought to

> filter it using plants.  I'm well versed in tropical aquaria and in growing

> plants.  I don't want to eat either the fish or the plants.  It will be

> small, say a 15 or 20 gal tank and kept in the office.

Hi Mark.  I am toying with some balanced environments in a couple of my

pet enclosures, with varying degrees of success.

My largest one is a 55 gallon tank.  I have the tank split up so that

1/3 of the tank to the left is dry land, and 2/3 to the right is

aquatic.  The water level comes up about seven inches.  On the left, in

the land section, is a water pump submerged beneath the gravel.  Water

is just at dry land level so the gravel is saturated.  The water pump at

the far left end of the tank in the corner brings the water up about

four or five inches above the dry land surface level, and then there is

a waterfall that runs into a prefabricated plastic creek that flows back

to the water section.  The water is really agitated in this waterfall

and hopefully assists in the exchange of CO2 for O2.

Now in the gravel I have planted a pair of $1.50 plants from Walmart. 

One is a philodendron and hasn't really taken off.  The other is

unidentified and has really overtaken the tank.  I frequently have to

prune it back to keep it from totally blocking the light (unfortunately

my lighting is pretty poor but it doesn't seem to hurt much).  This

plant started to grow straight up towards the light, and then as the

branches got thicker they started growing out sideways and reaching out

well over the water section of the tank.

In the water section I put a small sample of Java moss which has since

consumed much of the water section and started growing up a large hunk

of driftwood that is sitting in the water section and reaches almost to

the top of the tank.  The java moss doesn't grow that high as it needs

to be close to the water.

The tank's fauna was originally overwhelming.  We used to have over a

dozen small green treefrogs native to the southeastern U.S., about 8

chinese firebelly toads, assorted other critters, and a couple of giant

treefrogs of different species from the south pacific.  During this

period of time the plants didn't do so well, and the water was getting

stinky.  Cleaning the tank was a major chore and if we missed cleaning

it for whatever reason, frogs would start dying.  Well nature did what

nature does and the giant treefrogs started figuring out that the little

green treefrogs tasted like chicken so they all disappeared quickly. 

Some of the other animals were native to this area and I let them go

back to the environments I caught them from.  I acquired one new frog

for this tank, a Costa Rican Red Eyed Treefrog.  Aside from that, the

two giant treefrogs remain, as well as seven of the eight firebelly

toads, a large mudpuppy who spends most of his time in the water but

ventures out onto land from time to time, and a single butterflyfish

whom you can never seem to find until there are crickets in the tank and

suddenly his color changes and the camoflage no longer conceals him.

Every now and then I put some feeder guppies in the water as  a treat. 

Most of the time I throw large crickets in there.

In its current state, the tank hardly ever needs to be cleaned.  The

water tests out pretty well except the pH eventually gets low enough to

warrant a partial water change.  I was thinking of putting one piece of

coral rock in there to see how well that buffers the pH.  Of course

there is always some frog poop on the glass from the three treefrogs,

but I squirt that off with a spray bottle and it falls onto the gravel

or the water where it quickly breaks down.

I still think that the tank is overcrowded.  If I were to do this again,

I would nix the frogs and put a few small fish in the water section,

like maybe neon tetras or something, to add some color.  The frogs eat

and excrete quite a bit and really put a limit on the tanks ability to

maintain itself.

Now I also have a smaller tank, no water section.  It is a 20 gallon

"long" tank (30 inches long) that sits in the service window between my

kitchen and my dining room.  The substrate is moistened & packed peat

moss, topped liberally with maple & oak leaf litter, locally acquired

lichens, and locally acquired moss.  I put a couple of hunks of rotting

wood from my wooded property in there, in the hopes that it would bring

some diverse fauna with it to help keep the tank natural.  I went on a

shopping spree at walmart and brought home more than enough $1.50 potted

plants to heavily plant the tank.  I left a small open area in front of

a hunk of wood with just some moss, and next to that a small shallow

ceramic pool.

The pothos has really taken to this arrangement and must be kept in

check.  It has dropped a root into the water dish and took off like a

rocket from that point.  The other plants all need to be trimmed as they

approach the screen lid.  I try to keep all of the plants from touching

the lid in order to discourage cricket escape.

Now for the fauna.  I have half a dozen Mantella viridis frogs (a tiny &

rare poisonous frog from Madagascar) and 10 eastern newts in their "red

eft" stage that lasts for up to three years.  So far the newts have been

in there for a year and a half and show no signs of maturing to their

aquatic adult stage yet.  I think not having a large water source handy

has probably contributed to their slow maturity.

Now understand the mantella frogs are VERY tiny.  Each one, fullgrown,

is no bigger than a man's thumbnail.   Every now and then I dump some

tiny "pinhead" crickets in there, and the animals come out of seemingly

nowhere to hunt their prey.  To the casual observer, the terrarium looks

more like 100% plantlife and very mature growth at that. It has that

natural look that you can only acheive with time, patience, and pruning

(to prevent one plant from choking out another).  A small simulated

rainstorm or food introduced to the tank will introduce you to 16

animals hiding in a tiny amount of square footage and that gives you a

hint of what nature is like if you take the time to look.  In the 18

months that this tank has been operating, we have never cleaned it.  The

most maintenance we do is pruning the plants and occaisionally replacing

mosses or lichens if they are looking poor.  You can stick your face in

the tank and sniff and find no unpleasant odors.

Close examination shows rich soil fauna, and a number of other tiny

species of insect and arthropoda that supplement the food I introduce to

the tank and further help to balance the environment.  Droppings

disappear within a couple of days.  We had one dead mantella before the

tank balanced itself out and just for giggles we left it in there.  Keep

in mind this is before we had mature soil fauna.  But the carcass still

disappeared quickly without leaving a residual odor.  Our animals are

very healthy now, but should one die, I'm sure I'd never find the body

in time to even have a clue about it.

What am I finding here?  Well it only takes a little bit of animal to

support a whole lot of plants.  Shifting the ratio to where there is

more animal than plant introduces a lot of maintenance requirements. 

Shifting the balance to all plant and no animal is similarly labor

intensive.  But having a primarily plant arrangement with a few small

animals around seems to strike a wonderful balance.

Also I found that nature has already perfected what we seek to reinvent

one species at a time.  I really think introducing native rotting wood,

lichen, and moss to my terrarium added the necessary microfauna required

to keep the soil healthy.

I hope you post your results to the list.  I'd be interested in hearing

about your "micro aquaponics".  :-)

-- 

Chris Hedemark

Email: chris@yonderway.com   ICQ: 28986378

Rural Living at Yonder Way - http://www.yonderway.com/rural

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Subject: organic feed (was "Re: Genetic Engineering")

From:    Chris Hedemark 

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 13:28:44 -0400

Sorry for responding to such an old message.  I'm really behind on my

email.

Dave Miller wrote:

> Actually, a mistake need not be made, the switch to GE produced soy and

> many other feed crops WAS made without your consent. You are likely

> feeding your fish with these feed unless you are using what Ted has

> hoped to create: a safe feed that can be declared organic - by some

> senses even vegetarian acceptable. (Ted can fill in here if you have not

> read his earlier posts).

Ted, if you are reading this... you may want to catch up with Dr. Tom

Losordo at North Carolina State University and see if they are willing

to swap findings with you. Last time I was out at their fish barn a year

ago they were working on something just like this, with the idea that

they could work directly with local farmers to come up with a good

organic tilapia feed based purely on vegetable matter with no fish meal.

> We consume milk from another animal meant for the young of that specie

> and then we synthesize a process (insulin) to counteract the illness or

> disease (diabetes) that occurs down line. Funny that we could avoid this

> by not consuming the cow milk in the first place. Why does the thought

> of human breast milk cheese weird many when this is mammal specific? You

> would not digest the milk of man's best friend, a dog, yet one might try

> to remove a camphor gene to make use of a sugar substitute?    breath>

Ever look at a comparison of the nutritional value of human's milk as

opposed to cow and goat's milk?  Humans milk is down in the nutritional

gutter, as is common with omnivorous and carnivorous species.

-- 

Chris Hedemark

Email: chris@yonderway.com   ICQ: 28986378

Rural Living at Yonder Way - http://www.yonderway.com/rural

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| Message 5                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Aquaponics without eating the fish..

From:    Chris Hedemark 

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:12:23 -0400

Jim Sealy Jr wrote:

> Hey Kevin,

> I think there's probably as much (or more) money in ornamental fish as

> food fish..

And without much of a change in practice.

Go to the local pet shop and find out if they sell Tilapia

butterkofferi.  If they do sell it, check out the price.  If not, find

out how much they can get one to you for.   Rule of thumb:  1/3 of

sticker price is close to what pet shops pay for their fish.

It doesn't take a genius to see that there is a LOT of money in

ornamental fishes.  And they don't even have to be very big.  Selling

size for a T. butterkofferi is a 50 cent piece size.  Quarter size

works, too.  Much larger than .50 piece and your market shrinks

dramatically but a few half pounders will attract the rich collectors

who don't like to bother with raising the fish to size themselves.

> I guess you need to plan on making connections with the retail folks

> selling plants for water gardens. Or talk a couple garden centers who

> don't sell water plants and fish into starting selling the fish and

> plants you'll grow for them.

You have to be able to convince the pet shop owner that you can produce

a steady supply of superior fish for the same price or less than his own

supplier.  It is a major inconvenience to order fish from two or more

different suppliers so it can be a tough sell.

What one enterprising young man used to do when I worked in the biz was

he found out when we would put the fish orders together, and he took it

upon himself to come in on those days in the EARLY afternoon (since the

orders were always put together in the late afternoon to be faxed in

first thing in the morning).  He'd bring an inventory sheet and price

list and would even go through for us and make note of which fish he had

that we were low on.  His price was a little higher than the supplier

but the extra service he gave us to make it so convenient was a strong

selling point. We did business with him regularly.  I hear he owns his

own large pet shop now.

Anyone who can get a reliable breeding program for clown loaches

together will make some seriously good money.

Consumers LOVE clown loaches, of all sizes, but their costs is

prohibitive.  In a store full of small fish selling for under $5, the

clown loach is a tough sell coming in at about $7 at most of the smaller

stores but a little less from time to time in the bigger stores.  Anyone

who can come up with a steady supply of this intriguing species and can

come up with a final retail price of <$5.00 will do really well in this

industry.

Fish farms know this and have been trying at it for years.  But a

dedicated small-scale enthusiast might make this come to fruition more

rapidly as their resources are dedicated to one or two tasks and not to

maintaining a diverse fish farm.

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| Message 6                                                           |

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Subject: Re: redclaw identification

From:    "William Brown" 

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:23:37 -0000

Coir is coconut husks that have been shredded or chunked.  How could it not

be certified organic? Just curious.  Here it is very inexpensive, cheaper

than peatmoss.

William Brown mahiwai@cmpmail.com

(aka lettuce@hilo.net)

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Subject: Re: redclaw identification

From:    "William Brown" 

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 08:40:17 -0000

Am in the process to develop an organic flood and drain hydroponic system

using volcanic cinder and coir for the media and solid organic fertilizers

supplemented with maxicrop and other liquid organic fertilizers.  Trying to

stay away from the aquaponics aspect for now because of the potential of E.

coli in fish manure until I learn more.  The State is very strict about not

certifying kitchens/suppliers  that use produce fertilized with manures.

For some reason organic produce stores don't suffer the same strict

regulations regarding manures.   Brown mahiwai@cmpmail.com

(aka lettuce@hilo.net)

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| Message 8                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Fish Waste

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:23:56 EDT

Hello People,Several people on the list have said I should remove the waste 

solids from my tanks and not allow them to reach the growing beds,excuse my 

ignorance,but what is left to fertilize the plants?Are there any ways nature 

takes care of E.coli? And how can I know it's not in my system,besides 

reading about it in the paper,after a bunch of people get sick? If someone 

can post some preventative measures,I can take it would be in the best 

interest of Aquaponics,I am very concerned about making a mistake,not just 

for myself,but for everybody that is into Aquaponics,I don't want some 

blunder I make to hurt everybody else's reputation! You post it! I'll file 

it! Please,Thanks,and Good bye,Ken

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| Message 9                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Aquatic microbiology again. Was: redclaw identification

From:    "TGTX" 

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:54:00 -0500

William,

Where did you hear that there IS a problem with E.coli in common fish

manure?

If omnivorous and/or seston -feeding and/or filter feeding aquatic animals

such as Tilapia are raised in ponds fertilized with a VERY LARGE amount of

terrestrial animal manure, then it is potentially possible for the E.coli

originating in the terrestrial animal manure to be injested by the fish. 

There is some evidence that the E.coli has some degree of survival in the

fish intestine under these peculiar conditions.  Although E.coli likes the

internal environments of warm blooded mammals (especially ruminants), it

may be able to survive, to some degree, the short time and space as it is

routed through the cold blooded fish gut...but it is not a "natural" or

native member of the intestinal microflora of fish.  For this to happen,

the E.coli would be a major constituent of the microflora in the water and

the particulate matter suspended in the water.  In experiments with cow

manure fertilization of shrimp ponds, small amounts of cow manure were

added as part of a pond fertilzation plan to increase nutrients and thus

primary productivity in the pond.  Intensive testing showed no fecal

coliform or Salmonella were detected in the harvested shrimp.

The natural microflora in the water column and in the gut of the fish

mitigate the presence of these pathogens and their ability to multiply...

tremendously...due to competitive exclusion...which is very important in

aquatic microbiology, as well as in soil microbiology.  If any agricultural

system in which plants were exposed to coliforms, or other potential

pathogens that naturally occur in the soil, regardless of origin, were to

be disallowed, then all plant culture would be illegal, due to the presence

and diverse forms of coliforms and other potential pathogens naturally

occuring in all agricultural soils.

William, if "the State" is "concerned"- (there is that word again- recent

use of that word has come to almost always mean a euphemism for something

else, I have concluded)- about fish manure, then every organic farmer that

irrigates her fields with creek or pond water in which aquatic animals

happen to live would have to be closed down and she would have her farm

de-certified as organic.

The key is to feed the fish and the "pond" or culture water as the case may

be,  with something other than terrestrial animal manure.  I would not even

feed the pond composted cow manure, if I were that "concerned" about E.

coli, since I do not agree with the broad generalization that composting

terrestrial animal manure ELIMINATES all pathogens.  Practical experience

shows us that composting is pretty good at doing what we want it to do, but

it is not 100% efficient....it is more like making a cassarole or tossed

salad than it is like chemical engineering...at least on the farms I am

familiar with. 

Since farm composting is usually done in crude piles and mounds rather than

in biochemical reactors...some parts of the compost pile are cooler than

others... sure it is supposed to be turned, but the mixture is not

perfectly homogenous, the particles clump into aggregates that may never be

completly exposed to the fullest intensity of composting microorganism

activity and subsequent heat  etc...these factors.... and common sense....

tell us that the temperatures generated by the decomposing process are in

large part due to the intense respiration of active

microorganisms...Therefore at the end you do not have a sterile product

devoid of microorganisms, but rather one dominated by many of the

Psuedomonads and others that did much of the composting...their population

grew exponentially, then they crashed...but it did not eliminate all

microorganisms, for heavens sake!

Heat and competitive exclusion work together to drastically reduce but not

eliminate pathogens. Indeed, many of these Psuedomonads and others (yeasts,

molds, actinomycetes, etc.,) in a compost heap are generally harmless, but

nevertheless some are opportunistic pathogens...if given a good substrate

to exploit, and introduced in numbers that would "swamp" the competition,

like an open cut on your finger, or the aveoli of your lungs, or even the

intestinal environment- if enough were injested, they could become a

problem and even kill you.  

This is common agricultural compost.  Organic compost could kill you, given

the right set of (unlikely) circumstances. Run for your lives! 

In fact, you could try this little experiment: dont even use raw animal

manure....just put about 35 pounds of grass clippings and old leaves, some

dirt, and some kitchen scraps inside a plastic garbage bag...lets go

anaerobic here just for the fun of it....lets say all this stuff is all

vegetable matter...no meat, no feces...nothing but plant material....Spray

it with some water....Tie up the bag.  Set it out in the sun to bake and

digest for...I dont know....2 weeks...open it up....wear a respirator if

you chose at this point.   Take a sample of the material, which looks all

the world like cow dung.  Take it to the lab.  Run a heterotrophic plate

count (aerobic plate count or standard plate count if you wish).  Run a

total coliform count.  See what happens.  

The world is dangerous! Where shall we run for our lives?

There are a number of food spoilage and foodborne pathogen microorganisms

that are potentially "thermoduric."  That is, they can survive some

significant measure of heat treatment, such as that encountered in

composting and anaerobic digestion.  The survival may consitute only a

small percentage of the initial population, or most of the cells may

survive...in either case if there is some survival from heat treatment

ALONE (not counting competive exclusion in this case), then they may be

referred to as "thermoduric".  Thermoduric bacteria have received the

greatest attention in connection with milk and milk products, where the

term commonly is applied to organisms which remain viable after

pastuerization.  The genera Micrococcus, Streptococcus (primarily the

enterococci) , Microbacterium, Arthrobacter, Lactobacillus, Bacillus, and

Clostridium ( the last requiring special anaerobic conditions for recovery)

are recognized as containing some species which will qualify as

thermoduric.    

Given this context, we can see that 

1) Fish manure is dissimilar to terrestrial animal manures..with respect to

native microflora and with respect to microbiological/environmental

abundance/ concentration factors 

2) Feed materials and culture conditions are important in controlling

potential pathogen vectors- this is true whether we allow terrestrial

animal manures into the system or NOT !!!

3) All agriculture systems are chocked full of microorganisms of all

kinds...

4) Composting and anaerobic heat alone does not guarantee sterilization or

sanitation in processing agricultural wastes...it does help tremendously,

and it is a practical way of stabilizing and recycling nutrients and to

some degree, comforting our fretful minds at the same time, but there is

always those thermoduric guys and gals, and the inefficiency of the process

to consider.  Its Reality Check time again.

Hopes this helps.

Ted

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Subject: Re: Aquatic microbiology again. Was: redclaw identification

From:    "TGTX" 

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:04:59 -0500

Oh, and one more thing.  (That might be the epitaph on my headstone)

One more thing.  If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times.

"You kids go wash your hands before supper!"

"And wash your food before you eat it,  you hear me?"

Poppa Ground

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| Message 11                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Fish Waste

From:    doelle 

Date:    Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:20:29 +1000

Ken, 

simply compost it with other organic matter and nature takes care of the

pathogens. After composting you can put it onto the plants.

We here in Brisbane in Australia are not allowed to burn or throw too much

biomass into the garbage bin. Thus every household is forced to compost. The

City Councile provided even the compost bins initially and now, of course,

we have to buy them.

Very good way to educate people to take care of pollution.

My composted stuff I throw then again onto the garden beds. Excellent

fertiliser.

Hors

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| Message 12                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Aquatic microbiology again. Was: redclaw identification

From:    doelle 

Date:    Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:35:41 +1000

Ted

Your previous email was a great lecture which I enjoyed reading.

However, we do not want STERILISED food. This would not help our immune

system. This is what is wrong with our food of today.

This does not mean we should eat rotten food ! There is something in between.

You are correct to say that neither composting nor anaerobic digestion kills

every pathogen in existence. That is not necessary if you dilute onto the

fields or use the liquid for fish feed. A 70-80% reduction is quite

sufficient and our bodies can handle it as we have build up some immune

system battling against pathogens.

There are many microorganisms which give you a good taste of the food and

you do nto want to kill them as well.

In regard to fish waste, the E.coli does not necessary be in the fish, but

can easily build up in the waste residue and these organisms can multiply.

In my experience in the tropical areas of Thailand etc, aquaculture waste is

a very strong pollutant and must be composted before being put onto the

soil. This does not necessarily mean that the fish is also full of

pathogens. If you go to the west coast of Thailand, where the shrimp farms

are [stretch of 400 km], you would not put a foot into the sea shore. The

Government is now legislating to clean up the mess. Reason: The shrimps are

fed with artificial feed bought commercially. This feed is also a

magnificent source for bacterial growth and since you put the feed into the

water, you also nourish all microorganisms given to us by nature. If you

have human population around with unsatisfactory waste treatment or if you

add manure to the fish feed, naturally you cultivate pathogens alongside the

naturally microflora.

The best recipe still is, compost your waste before fertilising your plants.

If you do that, you should be safe.

Hope this helps.

Horst Doelle

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| Message 13                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Aquatic MYSTERY

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 19:22:20 EDT

Hi there,I have another question,7 of my fish died,I cleaned and examined 

their entrails,four of them were full of eggs,but one of the fish,when I cut 

it's gut's open a bright green fluid like ink,I'm talking British Racing 

Green,came out. I'never seen this  before,and I have cleaned thousands of 

fish!,is this a result of being an algae eater? Didn't hurt the taste,man 

what a meal,Henry's Finest grilled Tilapia,salad with Aquaponic lettuce,Three 

mile island baked potato,and Ken and Martha's Hushpuppies with Spring Onions. 

Thanks, Your Loving Son

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| Message 14                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Fish Waste

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 19:23:23 EDT

In a message dated 4/11/99 6:16:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

doelle@ozemail.com.au writes:

<< Ken, 

 

 simply compost it with other organic matter and nature takes care of the 

pathogens. After composting you can put it onto the plants.

 

 >>

Thanks Horst

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| Message 15                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Aquatic microbiology again. Was: redclaw identification

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 19:24:38 EDT

In a message dated 4/11/99 6:04:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

ground@thrifty.net writes:

<< You kids go wash your hands before supper!"

 "And wash your food before you eat it,  you hear me?"

  >>

O.K. Pop Thanks

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| Message 16                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Fish Waste

From:    "TGTX" 

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:03:06 -0500

Hi Ken, Hi Horst, Hi Everybody!

As Foghorn Leghorn might say...

"Now just hold, I say, just hold on there, boys. 

Hold on, that is."

I think it is O.K. to continually pump the solids onto the gravel without

this composting thing taking place...and this is why.

Suppose you have 100 lbs of fish in a tank.  Suppose you feed them 1 lb of

feed everyday.  Suppose half of that ends up as fish feces and a bit of

wasted feed solids.

O.K. so you have 1/2 lb of solids.  Most of that settles down to the

bottom, but not all at one time...so there is a slow, discontinuous

deposition of solids, but it is not like a big group toilet flush if you

will forgive the imagery....O.K., so, you pump from the bottom of the tank,

and during the course of the day, the pump keeps most of the solids from

accumulating in the tank....but it does not pump all the solids in one

single half pound slug....all at one time.....  

This pumping happens in increments or continuously over the course of the

day and the night...The solids are diluted with a lot of water as it goes

out of the tank and onto a VERY large surface area of pea gravel or

perlite...with bacterial biofilms on every surface, and eventually the

water and nutrients migrate toward the plant roots.  

What we have here is a biological carburetor, folks.....Let's keep it

humming smooth.

Gotta keep the air/fuel mix just right. Not too lean, Not too rich.

If you have at least 350 square feet of gravel surface area for every 100

lbs of fish biomass, (no, not grow bed surface area...gravel surface

area...are you with me?) and especially if you do this with an ebb and flow

cycle, letting air come in and replenish the biofilm, like the surf of the

ocean, the beat of your heart, the turning of the earth from night to day,

yada, yada, yada,...(don't get me started with the poetry)  then you get a

picture of the dilution factor and intense biological processing over the

course of a few hours that these solids experience (I have not even

included the vast surface area of the living plants, and the "bioturbation"

effect of earth worms moving materials around like ecological road graders,

front end loaders, and back hoes)  

If everything is well oxygenated as it should be, the solids are rapidly

transformed in a process that I call "aquatic composting"...This is where

the dirt farmers who never raised a fish or looked into the miraculous

world of the microscope... these dyed in the wool organic activists who

wanted to change the world, and did in their own way (thank God) but are

nevertheless becoming their own grandfathers....start to fall behind in the

marathon of advanced, progressive, correct thinking....their children and

grandchildren will surpass them, and honor them by growing aquaponic

organic lettuce and Tilapia on Mars...with a combination of high

technology, perspiration, and good old algae, fish, and wiggly worms...God

willing.

The particles of fish feces and wasted food pumped out of the fish tank are

very small, therefore they have a large surface area to volume ratio,

therefore, they are captured and  collected upon the gravel media,

colonized and degraded over this VERY LARGE surface area VERY RAPIDLY. 

Think about why fuel aerosols burn more efficiently given enough

oxygen.....Think of a large kidney or liver with a large surface area..or a

huge mitochondria...whatever helps you visualize this rapid, intense

biological process.

Buckminster Fuller lectured us on doing more with less and doing it faster

and more efficient.  He called it "Ephemeralization", in part because he

was fond of excess verbage and long windedness. Sound like any method of

growing things that you know of ? Sound like anyone you know of?  I seem to

be a verb, and a pronoun, and an adverb, and a preposition.....  

Anyway, what awaits these solids as they arrive at the gravel biofilm

surface is an aggressive, efficient, complex community of microorganisms. 

They KICK BUTT AND TAKE NO PRISONERS, if you will excuse the thick necked,

bowling alley, testosterone-poisoned, pedestrian colloquiallisms of your

humble journalist, here.  (Suppose I were to have the movie rights to the

first Aquaponics movie...let's think about this.....I vote we cast Stallone

or Swartzenneger...2 of the most sensitive and "KINDA REAL TALENTED" guys

on the planet...How about these for  titles...."Greenhouse Nursery

Cop"....or "Stop, Or My Mother Earth Will Shoot"....Think about it...Have

your people call my people...we'll do lunch..)

 

At that most silly digression, I will excuse myself.

Next Journal Entry:  Aquaponics, Bamboo Potato Cannons, and Peach Wine

Ted

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| Message 17                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Aquatic MYSTERY

From:    "TGTX" 

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:22:07 -0500

Ken, either you have a fish with a gut full of algae, 

or you have fish with a gut full of Prestone AntiFreeze.

or, you have a fish with a gut full of slimy ectoplasmic apparition

material from Hades.

Bon Appetit !

Ted

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| Message 18                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Aquatic MYSTERY

From:    KLOTTTRUE

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:57:30 EDT

In a message dated 4/11/99 9:22:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

ground@thrifty.net writes:

<< you have a fish with a gut full of slimy ectoplasmic apparition

 material from Hades.

 >>

Anybody Know an Exorcist?

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| Message 19                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Aquatic MYSTERY

From:    "TGTX" 

Date:    Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:39:10 -0500

> 

> In a message dated 4/11/99 9:22:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

> ground@thrifty.net writes:

> 

> << you have a fish with a gut full of slimy ectoplasmic apparition

>  material from Hades.

>  >>

> Anybody Know an Exorcist?

Yes, I know Him, and as a matter of fact He works miracles with fish.

Hope to see you at Supper, Ken.

Ted

S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124

Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/



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