Aquaponics Digest - Tue 04/13/99
Message 1: Re: Fish Waste
from doelle
Message 2: Shade cloth
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 3: Re: Shade cloth
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 4: Re: Plastic Alternatives
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 5: Re: Start up
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 6: Re: Growing Beds
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 7: unsubscribe
from "Dennis & Ellen Smith"
Message 8: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
from Gordon Watkins
Message 9: Re: Fish Waste
from Gordon Watkins
Message 10: Re: Plastic Alternatives
from "vpage"
Message 11: [Fwd: Announcing Conference & Call for Abstracts]
from William Evans
Message 12: Re: Shade cloth
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 13: Re: Aquatic microbiology again. Was: redclaw identification
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 14: Re: Plastic Alternatives
from "Uwe Bruenjes"
Message 15: Re: Shade cloth
from "Uwe Bruenjes"
Message 16: Re: Help! Help! Help! Rookies going down!!!
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 17: Re: Shade cloth
from KLOTTTRUE
Message 18: Re: Fish Waste
from doelle
Message 19: Re: location, was: Shade cloth
from "Uwe Bruenjes"
Message 20: RE: Help! Help! Help! Rookies going down!!!
from "Ronald W. Brooks"
Message 21: Re: Start up
from Jim Sealy Jr
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Subject: Re: Fish Waste
From: doelle
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:02:26 +1000
Ted,
Many thanks to put me back onto the rail. You are correct as most of my
experience comes from my visits and teaching in developing countries,
particularly Asia. Conditions here are different, hotter and more humid and
the knowledge is not as good as it should be. We try our best.
On the other hand I thought, rightly or wrongly, that we are sometimes
getting a bit complacent. I have seen many 'organic farmers in Europe now
putting animal manure into feed and also advise the Asian people to do so.
By the way, advisers from the USA have also done so in the Pacific. Of
course, everything coming from the USA and Europe must be good in the eyes
of people in developing countries. I have seen tragic aquaculture systems.
Neverthless our persistence appears to pay off and there is light coming
into the tunnel.
Sorry, if I sometimes bring in thoughts, which may not be applicable to our
good aquaponic discussion group. It is simply an awareness shake-up, since
we are not only discussing developed country situations, or ?
To answer your question, no I have not visited an aquaponic installation in
the USA and I gather you have solid legislation in place. Although some of
the questions in regard to 'organic farming' makes me wonder. It is such a
big area and have certainly seen it many times being used as a slogan. You
will not believe what some advisers call organic !
I think we have not left the rail, or at least I hope we are back on track.
Please continue putting me back if I go too far. I am one person who loves
criticism as that is the best way to learn.
Horst
Horst W.Doelle, D.Sc., D.Sc. [h.c.]
Chairman, IOBB
Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology
FAX: +617-38783230
Email: doelle@ozemail.com.au
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Subject: Shade cloth
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 06:57:22 -0400
Ted,
I did the smart thing and consulted with Gordon Creaser who has been
involved in lots of greenhouse operations in Florida. I was originally
going to use a greenhouse spray but since it will be cheaper to recycle
some shade cloth I will probably be taking that route. My landlord who
has been a nurseryman for over 40 years also is using 30% on his
sun-loving plans. I suspect that in Texas you get about the same light
exposure as we get so 30% would be OK for you too.
Adriana
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Subject: Re: Shade cloth
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 07:32:09 EDT
In a message dated 4/13/99 6:57:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
gutierrez-lagatta@home.com writes:
<< My landlord who
has been a nurseryman for over 40 years also is using 30% on his
sun-loving plans. I suspect that in Texas you get about the same light
exposure as we get so 30% would be OK for you too.
Adriana >>
Good Morning Adrianna,I know that different plants,need different amounts of
shading, so I take it 30% would be a good general choice, you mentioned
recycled shade cloth,do you have a source for the cloth,also do you have a
ballpark figure on SQ.FT. pricing? And I would like to thank you for all your
help,it has been very interesting listening to you. Many Thanks Ken
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Subject: Re: Plastic Alternatives
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 07:47:18 EDT
In a message dated 4/13/99 12:42:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dreadlox@toj.com writes:
<< Hello all,
I would like to take a minute to introduce myself. My name is Mikey
Barnett, and I have been a long time listener to this group, through my
partner, Sue or "Greensue". I signed up personally a few weeks ago, as
we were involved in a nasty accident, but are both healing fine. Hence
her long absence, and my craving for more info.
>>
Nice to meet you Mike,I"m very glad to hear that you and Sue are doing
better,I have been praying for you,you came to the right place for info,there
are some heavy duty minds on this list,i feel confident your hunger for
knowledge can be satisfied,and you'll probably get a lot of desert too,I'll
leave the advice to those who know,I just wanted to welcome you,and encourage
you to become active,with your professional background you should have much
to offer also.As they say at Walmart ...WELCOME Ken
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Subject: Re: Start up
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:25:45 -0500
At 08:18 PM 4/6/99 -0700, Craig wrote:
>Hello everyone
>>Hear are some great questions for you all. I am building a start up
>>system with two 55 gal drums. How many fish do I start with and how
>>many plants should I have ( talapia & bib lettuce ). The growing media
>>I am planning is perlite. All comments are welcome- please- :-).
Craig - We recommend stocking the system at a maximum of 1/2 to 3/4# (at
grow-out/harvest) of fish per gallon of water. Of course your start-up
ratio would be lower, but then your plant growth will be light to start as well.
We use pea gravel (common creek/river gravel here in the Ozarks) for our
grow media, and use a ratio of 2 cu. ft. of grow space for each cu. ft. of
water. We prefer gravel for its ability to house the beneficial bacteria,
without which the system cannot function.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: Growing Beds
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:27:24 -0500
At 11:36 AM 4/10/99 -0700, Craig wrote:
>
>I am starting my raised beds for lettuce and plan on using 1" in 4' fall for
>drainage. Will this work with a gravel growing beds 12" high.
>Is this enough fall. (I'm using 110 gallons for fish.)
Craig, can you explain this another way? What is your intended purpose with
the "fall"? Aeration? Are you using a one-pump system with gravity return?
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: aquaponics ?not? organic?
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:26:26 -0500
TGTX wrote:
> I have persuaded, cajoled, inticed, seduced, and brow beat.....a nationally
> recognized fish feed mill to finally take a risk and become organically
> certified..nobody has ever done this before in the USA to the best of my
> knowledge... because the mills were always approached in the past by fish
> farmers that did not have a clue about regional or local sources for the
> organic feed stock material....or what the certifying organization might
> ask them to do that was out of the ordinary.....so I scoured the
> countryside and found a raw materials supplier, then I brought in a good
> certifier... and I hooked them up...I got them all talking and
> networking...but it was real hard and real frustrating for
> everybody...especially me, because I am easily frustrated by bureaucracies
> and nay sayers and all those personality issues.....So, finally, I talked
> them into it....it took about a year....now we are in a dead still water
> area...the doldrums of government and commerce have taken the wind out of
> my sails....So, please pray for a good outcome....I think a big parade of
> aquaponic practitioners demanding this feed, or something like it, might
> turn the tide, but who knows?
Ted,
I appreciate your persistence and commiserate with your frustrations. One
thing that might help move things forward is to broaden the emphasis to more
than just fish feed. I'm sure there are many organic animal producers in Texas
who are also looking for organic feeds. As a grower of chickens, cows, pigs and
fish, I've found that most organic animal feed formulations contain similar
basic ingredients (ie:corn, soy, alfalfa, cal-phos, kelp, vitamins, etc) and
are simply blended in different ratios. Interest from several sectors might
more quickly convince a miller that there is sufficient demand to justify
stocking quantities of the raw ingredients.
>
> The perspective is that this is really no different than an organic farmer
> irrigating with pond or creek water in which fish and other aquatic
> organisms happen to live in.
The big difference between aquaponic water and stream water (which I happen
to use for irrigation) is nutrient concentration. We keep our fish at much
higher densities and feed at much higher rates than does nature. It's like
comparing the difference between a few cows wandering around a pasture,
depositing their manure at random, and applying tons per acre of manure with a
spreader. I'm not saying that one is better than the other, just that there IS
a significant difference between the two and their impact on the ecosystem. I
suspect, for example, that in a heavily stocked aquaponic system one could
create nitrate toxicity in a crop such as beets (which tend to concentrate
nitrates) while the same would be highly unlikely in a field crop irrigated
with stream water.
>
>
> I aspire to become the first organically certified fish farmer in the
> Republic of Texas, if not the USA...so wish us luck...I will need it. So
> let it be written, so let it be done.
>
> "It is not a Great Ambition, Grasshopper, but it is an ambition"
>
> Ted
Go for it!
Gordon
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Subject: Re: Fish Waste
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:50:14 -0500
Horst,
I think it is important to use the qualifier, "certified" when
discussing legitimate organic production practices. There are very clear
guidelines in place, not only in the USA but worldwide, including in
developing nations, which go to great lengths to establish a consistent,
unequivocal definition of permitted certified organic practices.
Organizations such as the Organic Crop Improvement Association,
International (OCIA), and the International Federation of Organic
Agriculture Movements (IFOAM) have worked hard for many
years to correct misunderstandings of organic practices and legitimize
organic farming as a viable alternative. Do not be distracted by those who
would bastardize the term either out of ignorance or for personal gain.
Gordon
doelle wrote:
> Ted,
>
> To answer your question, no I have not visited an aquaponic installation
in the USA and I gather you have solid legislation in place. Although some
of the questions in regard to 'organic farming' makes me wonder. It is such
a big area and have certainly seen it many times being used as a slogan. You
will not believe what some advisers call organic !
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Subject: Re: Plastic Alternatives
From: "vpage"
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:36:16 -0600
We built ours out of wood and lined them with two layers of good greenhouse
poly. They sit on cncrete blocks. Still going strong
vpage
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Subject: [Fwd: Announcing Conference & Call for Abstracts]
From: William Evans
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:49:03 -0700
saw this on another forum, thought someone might be interested....
billevans
education department wrote:
>
> Announcing Conference & Call For Abstracts:
>
> Wetlands for Wastewater Recycling
>
> Practical applications in agriculture, sanitary and
> stormwater treatment
>
> November 3-5, 1999
> BWI Airport Mariott, Baltimore, Maryland
>
> This is the first call for abstracts for the 1999 Wetlands
> for Wastewater Recycling Conference headed by Environmental
> Concern Inc. All submitted abstracts will be reviewed for
> applicability, technical content, and format. All accepted
> abstracts will be published in the meeting program.
>
> For submission and contact information, see Environmental
> Concern's website: www.wetland.org/conference.htm
>
> Environmental Concern Inc.
> A non-profit dedicated to wetlands consulting, research, and education
> P.O. Box P
> St. Michaels, MD 21663
> (410) 745-9620 fax (410) 745-4066
> educate@wetland.org
> www.wetland.org
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Subject: Re: Shade cloth
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:08:56 -0400
Ken,
My landlord is shutting down his large nursey operation and has shade
cloth that was used in the greenhouses that he has decommissioned. You
might check with your extension agent (commercial side) to see if he
knows of any greenhouse growers who have shut down.
As to pricing, I have yet to negotiate it. I know that 4,000 sq ft new
would cost around $400.
Adriana
> Good Morning Adrianna,I know that different plants,need different amounts of
> shading, so I take it 30% would be a good general choice, you mentioned
> recycled shade cloth,do you have a source for the cloth,also do you have a
> ballpark figure on SQ.FT. pricing?
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Subject: Re: Aquatic microbiology again. Was: redclaw identification
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:19:03 EDT
In a message dated 4/12/99 5:02:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
recycler@eclipse.net writes:
<< Hey maybe extraterrestrial manure will be considered organic at some
point in time!
>>
Wow what a career! Going around space,chasing floating space goobers! Beam me
up Scotty
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Subject: Re: Plastic Alternatives
From: "Uwe Bruenjes"
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 11:42:21 PDT
Hi Mike (aka RootsMan),
do you also have this nasty habit of smashing cars into huge trees? Have =
done that and didn't like it! Well, I hope that both of you are doin=
g much better by now!
Lately I read on the Permaculture list, that the rubber used for tires =
contains cadmium. If that's true, make sure that it won't come in contact=
with your water. Otherwise, why not? They have to go somewhere.
Uwe
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Subject: Re: Shade cloth
From: "Uwe Bruenjes"
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 11:48:15 PDT
Hi folks,
maybe Ted in Texas has to shade his plants more heavily than Adriana. He =
is living on a higher altitude above sea level, and there is much less =
moisture in the air, so there also is less hinderance for the rays to go =
through... Ok, now that I think about it, I'm supposing that he is living=
in the drier parts of the state. By the way, where are you at, Ted?
Uwe
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Subject: Re: Help! Help! Help! Rookies going down!!!
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:40:43 EDT
It's happening again,my Tilapia's fins are turning white,and falling
apart,one has white spots all over it. Anybody know what this is? What I can
do?Why this is happening? I emptied the tanks and cleaned them before I put
the fish in. But I didn't clean the beds,because sterilization would kill all
the Bacteria,and I assume the plants. I believe I have a disease problem
here,I think it may have come from the minnows,I use to sell bait fish at my
pay lake,the minnows tails would break off,my supplier blamed it on heat,the
same thing was happening this time,with the minnows first,Crappie,White
Bass,and now Tilapia, Ammonia Level is 0 ph is 7.0 water temp is 74 % ambient
tempin the 70's daytime,50's nighttime algaes gone water is crystal clear,the
fish are eating some but not much,they fight a lot,I am keeping tank cleaned
everyday,and aerating the water well. I do not believe it is the heat.
Anybody please help. Ken
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Subject: Re: Shade cloth
From: KLOTTTRUE
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:01:48 EDT
In a message dated 4/13/99 5:33:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
uweb@megalink.net.mx writes:
<< Hi folks,
maybe Ted in Texas has to shade his plants more heavily than Adriana. He is
living on a higher altitude above sea level, and there is much less moisture
in the air, so there also is less hinderance for the rays to go through...
Ok, now that I think about it, I'm supposing that he is living in the drier
parts of the state. By the way, where are you at, Ted?
>>
You're absolutely right Uwe,he lives at an higher altitude,but he lives at
GROUND level,somewhere between San Antonio and Austin,but I bet it is much
easier to cool yours and his greenhouses out there,because of less
humidity,than it is for Adriana and those of us who live in the southeast
U.S.,it gets so thick here sometimes it is hard to breath,it is also hard to
control Fungus and Mildew,by the way what part of Mexico are you in? Have a
great day friend! Ken
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Subject: Re: Fish Waste
From: doelle
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:00:48 +1000
Gordon,
Many thanks for your message which sounds very encouraging and I hope can
eventually be enforced.
Horst
At 09:50 AM 13/04/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Horst,
> I think it is important to use the qualifier, "certified" when
discussing legitimate organic production practices. There are very clear
guidelines in place, not only in the USA but worldwide, including in
developing nations, which go to great lengths to establish a consistent,
unequivocal definition of permitted certified organic practices.
Organizations such as the Organic Crop Improvement Association,
International (OCIA), and the International Federation of Organic
Agriculture Movements (IFOAM) have worked hard for many
>years to correct misunderstandings of organic practices and legitimize
organic farming as a viable alternative. Do not be distracted by those who
would bastardize the term either out of ignorance or for personal gain.
>
> Gordon
>
>doelle wrote:
>
>> Ted,
>>
>> To answer your question, no I have not visited an aquaponic installation
in the USA and I gather you have solid legislation in place. Although some
of the questions in regard to 'organic farming' makes me wonder. It is such
a big area and have certainly seen it many times being used as a slogan. You
will not believe what some advisers call organic !
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Subject: Re: location, was: Shade cloth
From: "Uwe Bruenjes"
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 99 16:20:35 PDT
Hi Ken,
I'm located in Chihuahua, the state with those small dogs Don't belie=
ve those Chihuahuans, the dog is from somewhere else; it just became famo=
us here. Anyway, I'm living in the capital city (also called Chihuahua), =
and it's about 200 miles straight down south from El Paso. Regarding our =
climate, it should be similar to Ted's, but with almost no kind of aquacu=
lture (aquaponics, hydroponics, ponds, ... you name it!) around.
Best wishes for your fish, though only temporarily; one day they'll be =
on your table!
Uwe
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Subject: RE: Help! Help! Help! Rookies going down!!!
From: "Ronald W. Brooks"
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:33:58 -0400
sounds like Ich which is an ectoparisite brought on by stress.
And I can not think of any more stress that your fish have gone thru.
Treatment listed in HAMES is copper sulfate or formalin. Both of these are
dangerous and will kill off your growing beds.
My thoughts is since these fish are to be used as breeders go to the pet
store and buy Ich treatment and maybe a general antibiotic also ands remove
the fish to smaller tanks and treat for the recommended time.
Some people have had luck with high temps and salt baths but this is a tried
and true method for me.
Oh go to the American Tilapia association home page and under free software
download a copy of HAMES for free. http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/ata.html
Ron
The One Who Walks Two Paths
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Subject: Re: Start up
From: Jim Sealy Jr
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:28:42 -0500
Hi Paula,
I'm working from "Can 'til can't" right now with planting and all, so am
just hit and miss now on posts, but I have a question I feel needs an
answer for the sake of newcomers, and it never has been brought up while
I was listening.
When you say 2 cu.ft. of grow space for each cu. ft. of water, do you
mean 2 square feet of surface area or 2 cubic feet of grow media? This
description leaves a lot of room for interpretation (bad guesses;).
Converting to gallons, I've yet to figure out how to fill 15 gallons of
gravel bed with 7.5 gallons of water.
Jim
PS: I know an answer to this, or at least one that my fish and plants
don't mind, but would like to hear what ratios/methods others are using.
JS
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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