Aquaponics Digest - Fri 05/28/99
Message 1: Re: Greenhouse control system
from Glen Seibert
Message 2: trout effluent
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 3: Re: Sources & prices wanted
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 4: Re: check
from "TGTX"
Message 5: Organic Aquaculture
from "Deborah J. Brister"
Message 6: Re: Organic Aquaculture
from Carolyn Hoagland
Message 7: Re: Organic Aquaculture
from "SULFERCREEK"
Message 8: Strawberries!
from strawbs@mweb.co.za
Message 9: Re: Organic Aquaculture
from "TGTX"
Message 10: Re: Strawberries!
from "William Brown"
Message 11: Field Guide to On-Farm Composting
from "TGTX"
Message 12: Re: Organic Aquaculture
from "Deborah J. Brister"
Message 13: RE: Organic Aquaculture
from "Deborah J. Brister"
Message 14: Re: Organic Aquaculture
from doelle
Message 15: RE: Organic Aquaculture
from "Ronald W. Brooks"
Message 16: Re: Organic Aquaculture
from "Jim Sealy Jr."
Message 17: Re: trout effluent
from "Andrew.D"
Message 18: Re: Organic Aquaculture
from "Andrew.D"
Message 19: Re: Organic Aquaculture
from "Wendy Nagurny"
Message 20: Re: Organic Aquaculture
from "Jim Sealy Jr."
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: Greenhouse control system
From: Glen Seibert
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:38:07 -0700
Andrew.D wrote:
>
> Brian please keep us all informed.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian Gracia
> To:
> Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 12:55 PM
> Subject: Greenhouse control system
>
> > Hello Again!
> >
> > I am building a greenhouse control system that will run off an old 386 I
> > have laying around. If I can get it to the level of service I forsee for
> > it, I would be willing to share the code and circuits diagrams.
> >
> > Does anyone have particulars that they want to control, wish to control,
> if
> > only I could's? Let me know and I will see if I have not already planed
> > for them.
> >
> > Brian Gracia
Yes Brian Id be very interested too...its getting to the point where a
computer and control programs for a hydroponic or greenhouse control
system is cheaper than the more tradational analogue timing systems
(have you priced an ordinary mechanical INTERMATIC lately!!?)
Glen
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Subject: trout effluent
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 07:51:29 -0400
Andrew,
There were two responses posted to your question on the trout effluent.
Did you miss them?
Adriana
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| Message 3 |
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Subject: Re: Sources & prices wanted
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 07:57:53 -0400
Brian,
I think that lettuce, at least romaine, is sold in cases of 24 heads.
The price ranges from $12-21 per case depending on weather conditions in
California. I don't think you can compete in that market unless you get
into a niche with specialty products rather than going for the
commodities.
Adriana
> > How bout price/20 lbs of lettuce? I have a friend that runs several
> > resturants. He is willing to buy 20lb cases of lettuce from me if the
> > price is right. If I remember it correctly, he gets his lettuce for $14
> > for a 20lb case.
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Subject: Re: check
From: "TGTX"
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:07:10 -0500
Hi Ken.
Just checked my messages after several days of absence.
Received your test message on the 26th.
Ted.
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| Message 5 |
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Subject: Organic Aquaculture
From: "Deborah J. Brister"
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:07:19 -0500
Greetings,
I will be traveling to Washington D.C. in a week to present =
recommendations to the National Organic Standards Board regarding the =
proposed organic aquaculture standards. Before I go, it would be =
helpful to get an idea of just how much interest there really is in =
organic aquaculture. What would help me is if you can help me identify =
specific operations that are rearing fish organically or are attempting =
to (or would like to) rear them organically. I would also like to learn =
more about who else has actually developed, or is in the process of =
developing organic standards for aquaculture. Ted, I know you have =
written about this in the Aug/Sept issue of Aquaponics and was wondering =
if you had any additional information you would be willing to share as =
well. Thanks!
Deborah J. Brister
Graduate Research Assistant
Aquaculture and Environmental Policy
Department of Fisheries and Wildlife
University of Minnesota
200 Hodson Hall
1980 Folwell Avenue
St. Paul, MN 55108-6124
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Subject: Re: Organic Aquaculture
From: Carolyn Hoagland
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:24:52 -0500
Organic Aquaculture or aquaponics standards are going to be tough to define.
Here are the categories that concern me:
inputs:
That trout chow is *not* organic (or sustainable) in its origin.
I am not aware of any organic fish feeds currently on the market.
outputs:
How is the waste water being handled - I've been to several state sponsored
hatcheries where they seem to do some minimal settling and then just pump
the effluent back into a creek. (yum!)
Containers:
This whole area is full of plastics, styrofoam, synthic rubber.
I can't believe it is ecomomical to use wooden coopered tanks and races.
Pesticides:
I'm guessing most aquaponic growers are really careful about this anyway,
because the fish are so sensitive to it.
Shipping and packaging:
I have always wondered at the wisdom of buying organic lettuce
shipped in from California when I live nearer the east coast.
Seems like something that gives a local grower an advantage would
be useful.
What are you thinking about for basic guidelines? It seems to me the whole
organic movement is about learning how to live and learning how to
"stop crapping in our own bed".
Best wishes.
Carolyn
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Subject: Re: Organic Aquaculture
From: "SULFERCREEK"
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:36:09 -0400
Hi
My name is Dave and just signed on. Tell me what is in fish feed and we can
try to make a fish chow. I am an organic farmer cert. with OCIA. We would
love the chance to work with someone on this.
Dave Bok
Natures Way Organic Farm
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| Message 8 |
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Subject: Strawberries!
From: strawbs@mweb.co.za
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:23:11 +0200
Hi Folks
There is no main factort to economic hydroponic strawberry farming - =
there are various!
Cultivar is important - with the right choice of plant, a 12 month =
production cycle is possible, but, the management is important. One =
should try and prevent vegatitve growth in the nursery, rather let the =
plants propagate in the openfield and use only the new runners for =
production in the nursery. It is important to use all the tricks in the =
book - chill the runners at 2=BAC for about 2 weeks and only then plant =
them in the hydroponic system. As soon as the production for a certain =
cultivar goes down, replace it. The growth medium should be permanent - =
gravel works fine, and the nursery should be low maintaince. There =
should be at least 80 000 plants in production. Nutrients should be =
recycled - make use of technology to automate the process of sterilizing =
and enriching the nutrient solution. =20
Utelise damaged fruit - jam, yogurt and juices could absorb a lot of =
substandard fruit. Utelise the removed plant material - compost for the =
plants not in the " system "
Chris
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: Re: Organic Aquaculture
From: "TGTX"
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:35:02 -0500
Deborah,
It has been about 2 years now since I began writing the standards in
earnest.
They have been submitted already. At various times in the last year or so,
I offered to share the draft outline with the aquaponics group. They have
already been submitted to the NOSB via Cynthia (Cissy) Bowman who is
associated with the Organic Farmers Marketing Association in Indiana- She
will help you find out what we have already submitted to NOSB and the Texas
Department of Agriculture's Organic Certification program over a year ago.
You may contact her at cvof@iquest.net. We collaborated on drawing up my
outline of organic aquaculture fundamentals into a set of standards that
make more administrative "sense" and are practically acheivable. Tom and
Paula Spearaneo, Gordon Watkins, and a few others on the list were given
copies of the original outline for review- which included the rationales and
elaborations on each point..giving the reasons behind each element of the
organic aquaculture fundamentals.
Switching gears here...the comment about plastic and styrofoam is rather
puzzling, since these inert materials are not prohibited in organic
agriculture. I don't know of a single organic farmer who does not water
their gardens, trees, and what have you, through a system of PVC or
polypropylene pipe, for example. And of course, poly film mulch is very
much allowed and very frequently used by organic farmers...yes, thats
certified organic farmers...Anybody know what dormant oil spray is? It is
used in organic tree culture to control pests....It is basically crude oil
sprayed on the tree....
But then, we have had this discussion over and over and over in the last 2
years. I don't know what more can be said about it.
Except.......Here's a wild eyed rant:
Both organic agriculture and organic aquaculture are NOT about strictly
whether we use certain kinds of technology or certain kinds of advanced
materials...its about persuing resource conservation and natural resource
preservation and the rational use, reuse, recycling, and overall good
stewardship and protection of resources. So many have come to the front and
tried to make it about the presence or absence of a part per trillion or
part per quadrillion of particular synthetic substances...these are
certainly worth considering...in context....as long as we know that they
pale in comparision to the fundamental importance and value of organic
agriculture...since a recent Consumer Survey found that 25% of organic
produce was found to have pesticide residues "present"......The real value
of Organic agriculture is about conserving and developing (increasing more
of )natural resource reserves such as topsoil, water resources, nutrients-
stabilizing nutrients to reduce pollution and other impacts on ecosystems,
and it is about striving after the true meaning of that ever elusive and
practically unattainable concept of "sustainability" which has unfortunately
become a political term.... and a perjorative more often than not, despite
it's thin veneer of "compassionate or progressive technocratese" .
It is often used in the way that the politically correct use the term
"appropriate", as in "appropriate" technology., implying that the one using
the term has passed judgement (moral judgement- not scientific appraisal
more often than not) on what is "not sustainable", or what is "not
appropriate", or what is not politically "correct", or what is not
"natural"... the list goes on. Many of those who were fluent in
"psychobabble" back in the 60s and 70s have learned a second lexicon-
"ecobabble"...Est and Primal Scream lingo have been usurped by Wilhelm
Reich, and Findhorn ..and all manner of nonsense in the name of organic
agriculture and environmental or "eco"activism. I recommend 2 books related
to this topic "Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science" by Martin
Gardner...and Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds"...These throw a
lot of light on this notion of modern superstition and beliefs.
Don't get me wrong- I try to use the term sustainable to mean what it means
and I do very much like the term and applaud and endorse the concept...it's
true meaning is a good thing....(just like the real meaning of ecology is a
branch of science- a good thing- and not a political movement, as it has
become in the minds of many)
I just try to use it sparingly, because it is so often used out of the
context of truth....Kind of like the terms "professional" and "gentleman"
are so often used to mean something other than what is being referred to...
(professional has come to mean someone in a business suit who does not have
dirt under their fingernails...under that definition a mannikin could be a
professional....and "gentleman" has come to mean a male human being in the
crowd..)..C.S. Lewis had something to say about the destruction of meaning
in language....and that stuff is kinda important to me.
Anyway, it's all fun and games.
So, Don't Worry. Be Happy.
Have a Great Memorial Day Week end...and Please Remember its' True Meaning
Ted.
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Subject: Re: Strawberries!
From: "William Brown"
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:32:11 -1000
Chris,
Judging from your address you have some experience with strawberries. Can
you relate things like EC, pH, growing setup, main problems and varieties?
William Brown mahiwai@cmpmail.com
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Subject: Field Guide to On-Farm Composting
From: "TGTX"
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:16:14 -0500
While we are on the subject of organic agriculture, I thought I might
heartily recommend a little publication available from the Natural Resource,
Agriculture, and Engineering Service (NRAES) in Ithaca, New York, USA.
The Field Guide to On-Farm Composting can help us all out there, from small
time operators to commericial dairies, etc...compost our waste...this is a
very comprehensive little book and it is meant for the field....It's way
cool because some of the case studies come from God's country right.....
here in Texas.
It is publication NRAES-114
Their address is NRAES Cooperative Extension, 152 Riley Robb Hall Ithaca,
New York 14853-5701 email NRAES@CORNELL.EDU website is NRAES.ORG
Ted
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Subject: Re: Organic Aquaculture
From: "Deborah J. Brister"
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:52:48 -0500
The National Organic Standards Board (NOSB) has been in the process of =
defining organic aquaculture using a framework from organic agriculture. =
This is and will be an ongoing process. =20
Professor Anne Kapuscinski, (University of Minnesota) and I have =
developed recommendations that pinpoint differences between agriculture =
and aquaculture. Our recommendations respond to Organic Aquaculture =
Standards Drafts #2 and #3 submitted by the Livestock Committee of NOSB. =
=20
These drafts include issues on feed, environment, origin and breeding =
of stock, health care, harvesting, siting and general requirements. Our =
response to these issues is rather lengthy (14 pages) and is currently =
in a format that makes direct reference to the Livestock Committee's =
drafts 2 and 3. Without these drafts in hand as a reference, reading =
our recommendations would be rather confusing. For this reason, we will =
wait until after the NOSB meeting to rewrite our document so it is not =
necessary to have all of the drafts in hand to follow our chain of =
thinking and rationale.
If you are interested in reading the NOSB Livestock Committee's drafts =
and our recommendations (which will be made publicly available after the =
meeting) I strongly urge you to contact the Committee's Chair, Fred =
Kirchenmann at farmvo@daktel.com or Mark Keating at =
merrigan@access.digex.net . I would also strongly urge you to contact =
them, express your interest in organic aquaculture and provide them with =
constructive feedback. =20
As a side note, we have just proposed to the Livestock Committee that we =
will convene an informational workshop to discuss organic aquaculture =
standards. We hope to involve a variety of participants from all sectors =
of the organic farming and aquaculture industry. The outcome of the =
workshop would be to stimulate comments on the draft recommendations by =
late fall of this year.
I look forward to the ongoing discussions of organic aquaculture and =
hope to learn of other growers that are interested in, or are active in =
this area.
Deborah J. Brister
Graduate Research Assistant
Aquaculture and Environmental Policy
Department of Fisheries and Wildlife
University of Minnesota
200 Hodson Hall
1980 Folwell Avenue
St. Paul, MN 55108-6124
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Subject: RE: Organic Aquaculture
From: "Deborah J. Brister"
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:22:53 -0500
Dave,
It's really exciting to see the kind of response you just gave. I think =
the best approach would be to look at some of the published literature =
that's out there right now. To start with, a few suggestions would be:
Lim, C. and D. Sessa. 1995. Nutrition and Utilization Technology in =
Aquaculture. AOCS Press, Champaign, IL.
De Silva, S. and T. Anderson. 1995. Fish Nutrition in Aquaculture. =
Chapman and Hall, New York.
And possibly:=20
Goddard, S. 1996. Feed Management in Intensive Aquaculture. Chapman and =
Hall, New York.
=20
Deborah J. Brister
Graduate Research Assistant
Aquaculture and Environmental Policy
Department of Fisheries and Wildlife
University of Minnesota
200 Hodson Hall
1980 Folwell Avenue
St. Paul, MN 55108-6124
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Subject: Re: Organic Aquaculture
From: doelle
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 07:30:30 +1000
Ted,
I very much like your rhetoric , comments below. Many words are being formed
to make money, to get money and please politicians. One should establish a
new book on synonyms !
Have a nice weekend/.
Horst
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Subject: RE: Organic Aquaculture
From: "Ronald W. Brooks"
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:24:46 -0400
Dave
Here is the ingredient list from feed that I use for fry.
fish meal , wheat germ meal , wheat flour , corn gluten , feeding oat meal ,
dried potato products , dehulled soybean meal , shrimp meal , torula dried
yeast , cracklings , monobasic calcium phosphate , algae meal , L-lysine
monohydrochloride , lecithin , gammarus, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate(vitamin
C) , ethyoxyquin and citric acid as preservatives.
Min. crude protein - 47.5 %
Min. crude fat - 06.5 %
Min. crude fiber - 02.0 %
Max. Moisture - 06.0 %
Min. Phosphorus - 01.5 %
Min. Vitamin C - 100mg/kg
This is a slow sinking food
Ron
The One Who Walks Two Paths
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| Message 16 |
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Subject: Re: Organic Aquaculture
From: "Jim Sealy Jr."
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 20:26:09 -0500
I don't know about trout chow, but my local feed mill operator (advises me
on our
small scale in-house feed production needs and supplies us supplements
wholesale)
has stated we can run a line of feed using all organic ingredients now. The
hang-ups
are cost and whether wild caught fish meal and mineral supplements would
qualify as
organic ingredients. Fish meal can be replaced with other protein sources, but
certain amino acids will be lacking for which there are no good substitutes,
organic
or otherwise.
As for processing waste water, we're irrigating 160 acres of hay field from
30 acres
of catfish ponds, and experimenting with a 200 acre managed wetland at another
(larger) catfish farm in near Tunica. Neither of these operations dump
effluent into
streams. Why waste a valuable commodity like nutrient rich water?
I think containers should be left out of the organic aquaculture standards,
unless
you expect organic vegetable farmers to return to paper wrappers ,wooden
plows, and
oxen.
Pesticides/chemicals: This is a possible area of concern to me since the use of
aquacultural herbicides and pharmaceuticals is on the increase around here. (MS
Delta)
Shipping: Local growers have plenty of advantage against other organic
growers. It's
the commodity growers who are the real competition.
"Stop crapping in your own bed": Amen! (See Shipping) With some reasonable (*)
guidelines, we could have organic produce and fish/meat now.
Jim
(*) I'm a firm believer in Bt and other uses of GE to avoid the use of
pesticides.
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Subject: Re: trout effluent
From: "Andrew.D"
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 11:45:43 +0930
I did receive them thanks Adriana. What I was hoping for was some ideas on
how the best way to set up with all this waste water as.
I was thinking that the water from the duckpond (300,000L) would be run
through 100 metres of gravel bed laid into a plastic lined channel.
Is this the best way? I would love to hear some other ideas.
Andrew
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Subject: Re: Organic Aquaculture
From: "Andrew.D"
Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 11:53:00 +0930
Dr Senna De Silva can be contacted at the Deakin University in Warrnambool,
Victoria, Australia.
They have a web site and his faculty is Aquatic sciences.
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Subject: Re: Organic Aquaculture
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:06:34 -0400
Ted had sent me a copy of the organic standards proposal. Sorry, Ted, I
didn't send you my comments. I didn't know where to start, but I think you
know where my major complaints would be with it. I think the proposed
organic standards involve way too much micro management with regards to the
maintenance of the fish environment . (I know you feel that way too, Ted.)
Keeping fish is not like keeping anything else. I have said this before and
for the benefit of those who were not on this list when I said it before, I
will say it again. Happy fish don't get sick! Fish have this wonderful
coat of slime which protects them form all the nasties in their world. When
a fish is unhappy it sheds this slime coat and can succumb to everything
waiting for the opportunity. When your fish come down with bacterial
infections, protozoan infestations, ich outbreaks, etc. it is a sign that
something is not right with their little world. This can be a problem with
the temperature, pH, hardness, DO, nutritional deficiencies, or stress from
too much or too little light, random day/night cycles, overcrowding,
undercrowding, pecking order squabbles, water too dirty or too clean,
overfeeding, underfeeding, etc, etc. It is absolutely not possible to
regulate all the variables involved with maintaining your fishes well-being,
as this varies so widely with species and even with individual strains and
sometimes each specimen. This is where the art of fishkeepig comes in. So,
if you merely prohibit the prophylactic disease controls, antibiotics,
fungicides, etc, the fish MUST be kept in an environment THEY find
acceptable or they die and you, the aquafarmer, lose your shirt. I will
also say that any attempt to legislate environmental conditions to ensure
their emotional well-being will be detrimental to the very thing they are
trying to encourage. Fish just don't think the same way people do. For
example, I have read on this list where people are upset at seeing fish
"packed gill-to-gill". Some fish LIKE it that way. If they didn't, they
would thin the population themselves. You just can't overcrowd fish for
long.
In my opinion, organic feeds are a must. To me, this also prohibits wild
caught fish meal and oil. Granted, there is currently no manufacturer of
organic fish feed. That is because there is no market for organic fish
feeds. If the standard called for feed to be from certified organic
sources, then there would be organic feeds on the market. T'is the way of
the capitalist.
End of rant.
Wendy
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Subject: Re: Organic Aquaculture
From: "Jim Sealy Jr."
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 22:21:37 -0500
Wendy,
Why no wild caught fish meal and oil? Isn't it made from fish which wouldn't be
utilized otherwise? (humanocentric position;)
What would you suggest as a replacement? I don't know of _any_ viable
replacement,
cheap or expensive, organic or otherwise. I've looked..
and am still looking.
Jim
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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