Aquaponics Digest - Sun 07/25/99




Message   1: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

             from Bagelhole1

Message   2: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta

Message   3: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

             from "Brett Deiser" 

Message   4: misc questions and intro

             from "tbird2" 

Message   5: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

             from Bagelhole1

Message   6: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

             from PDOSSJR

Message   7: Re: misc questions and intro

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta

Message   8: Ceviche

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta

Message   9: How are you doing?

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta

Message  10: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

             from "Jim Sealy Jr." 

Message  11: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

             from Bagelhole1

Message  12: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

             from "Brett Deiser" 

Message  13: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline

             from Carolyn Hoagland 

Message  14: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta

Message  15: Re: misc questions and intro

             from atkindw@cwjamaica.com (david w atkinson)

Message  16: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline

             from atkindw@cwjamaica.com (david w atkinson)

Message  17: Re: How are you doing?

             from Jon Hays 

Message  18: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

             from "Marcy L. Nameth" 

Message  19: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline

             from Bagelhole1

Message  20: Re: misc questions and intro

             from "tbird2" 

Message  21: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline

             from Bagelhole1

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| Message 1                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

From:    Bagelhole1

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 04:22:10 EDT

Dear Griz,

                 I think your concern is valid about the iffy quality of the 

project. But first you must understand, that I recommend that people 

inventory/stockpile as appropriately as they can and then try to become as 

self-sustainable as possible. One does not preclude the other. 

The challenge appears daunting and that is why the response must be great. So 

far I have received great info about how to fishfarm/greenhouse on this list, 

and this is where my hopes lie. I can only make it happen through the 

collaboration of others. Its not about me, its about global collaboration to 

lay the groundwork for a sustainable world.     

As I go along, what I need to do becomes clearer, then lacking the necessary 

info I ask the Universe to provide what I need to know. Ron, who walks two 

paths, spoke up and helped me refocus my  path. Now, I need to know what I 

wrote below:

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| Message 2                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 06:27:38 -0400

Tom,

If you're serious about food production I suggest you give up the idea

of growing individual plants in soda bottles.  A good growing system

maximizes the yield per square foot and the soda bottle approach is very

limiting.  You should plan to grow in beds with some sort of media in

them which gives you the ultimate flexibility for plant spacing.  Paula

and Tom use gravel beds, I use perlite but don't have fish in my

system.  Others have used sand or even styrofoam sheets floating on the

water.  Some people make the beds out of plywood with liners in them. 

These are typically 4' wide by 8' long.  Mine are made from aluminum

roof pans.  There is no single solution.

Adriana

         I was hoping for some more help. I am constructing a low-cost

> greenhouse with trenches around the perimeter to grow tilepia and organic

> vegetables, in vertical structures made out of 2 liter plastic pop bottles to

> hold the plants, with tubing going thru the bottles to the fish water and

> back again.

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| Message 3                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

From:    "Brett Deiser" 

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:01:29 -0500

>I am trying to be a model for low-tech sustainability. I am under a

>non-profit and am working to create community food security. Also, the

>project is developing an ever-improving list of low-tech ideas/methods to

>share over the internet to help individuals become relatively

>self-sustainable before 2000 and to be a model for their neighborhoods.

   Your to late at this point IMHO its only 6 months away.

>My take on y2k is that no one can tell what is going to happen, but the

>possibility that it could be big is not remote enough to ignore. I think

>there is a lot of denial around.

   The worste thing that I think is going to happen is that the stock market

will take a TEMPORARY dip then all the people who bought generators and

dried food will be looking to unload stuff at prices very much lower than

the purchase price they paid.

Keep your eye on the ball, your nose to the

grindstone, an ear to the ground, and your

shoulder to the wheel.

Now try to work in THAT position!

Brett :-}

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| Message 4                                                           |

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Subject: misc questions and intro

From:    "tbird2" 

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:37:25 -0500

Hi,

My name is Mary, and I just usually read the posts, stockpiling the things I

want to keep for that date when we will begin our own.

In Mexico, they used to have floating gardens, and I was wondering if anyone

knows what they used, and how?

Also, I have been offered a used greenhouse for sale. It is 20 by 50, with

only the metal supports---no heater, visquine, etc.     What should I expect

to pay for this?

 We first saw this at Epcot, where they have the aquaponic---tilapia,

veggies----set up, and it was beautiful. But of course, I don't have the

funds of Disney .  Do they ever have any input to you all, or has anyone

ever talked to them?  They do have an all day background tour of their set

up, but I couldn't bring the kids to something like that. Oh , well.

Thanks for your help----I hope to get to Missouri one day to see this is

action!

Mary

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| Message 5                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

From:    Bagelhole1

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:56:48 EDT

In a message dated 7/25/99 11:25:43 AM, gutierrez-lagatta@home.com writes:

< greenhouse with trenches around the perimeter to grow tilepia and organic

> vegetables, in vertical structures made out of 2 liter plastic pop bottles 

to

> hold the plants, with tubing going thru the bottles to the fish water and

> back again.

>>

Dear Adriana,

                        Thanks for your response. But, I have the feeling 

that it may be hard for you to visualize the plastic bottle idea. Because 

this technique is to utilize the maximum amount of space. Once I get it up, 

I'll post a photo. I am aware of the slanted bed technique, where the fish 

water, thru perforated tubing at one end, enters the soil/perlite /whatever 

and drains thru until it falls out, oxygenated and clean back into the 

fishwater.

                                                                                

                                                        Kind Regards,

                                                                                

                                                        Tom O

                                                                                

                                http://bagelhole.hypermart.net                  

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| Message 6                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

From:    PDOSSJR

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:41:19 EDT

In a message dated 7/25/99 8:03:32 AM Central Daylight Time, 

bdeiser@missouri.org writes:

<<   The worste thing that I think is going to happen is that the stock market

 will take a TEMPORARY dip then all the people who bought generators and

 dried food will be looking to unload stuff at prices very much lower than

 the purchase price they paid. >>

I can't imagine why anyone who owned a generator and dried food would want to 

sell them after the first of the year. It is insurance. If you go through a 

hurricane season without a storm you don't cancel your insurance and you are 

certainly not disappointed that there wasn't any damage done.

You are right about one thing the stock market will almost certainly that a 

dip. Y2K is very real. No one out there is saying that the rest of the world 

will be alright. Like it or not we are very dependent on the rest of the 

world. Many experts right here in the US are saying that people are not 

taking this serious enough. They are talking but not many are listening. Too 

much good press coming from the government in hopes of averting a panic. This 

is the real problem. They can't really tell us to prepare without the risk of 

a panic.

When I first heard of Y2K, about 2 years ago,  I thought that it was some 

kind of hoacus poacus (spelling) because of the millinium roll over. It is a 

fixable problem. It is, given enough time and money. Computers and imbedded 

chips don't care that a new millinium is about to begin except for the fact 

that they were programed in a way that makes it a problem. You have to 

understand the interconnectivity of everything to really understand the 

problem.

When the Red Cross tells you that it would be a good idea to stock up a week 

or two of supplies, when the people at Global Solutions (an international IT 

consulting corp.) says it would be a good idea to stock up 90 days worth of 

supplies, for my families sake I have better listen. It would be 

irresponsible of me not to. Then hope that I don't need it. 

Not many people will know, if this turns out not to be a problem, just how 

close we came to having a total break down. It will only be because a few 

people raised enough of a stink and an awful lot of people worked very hard 

day and night to fix a problem that many experts said there wasn't enough 

time to fix. Did they make it? We'll have to wait and see.

Sorry for the rant but if this turns out to be a problem not much else will 

matter.

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| Message 7                                                           |

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Subject: Re: misc questions and intro

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:52:16 -0400

Hi Mary, welcome to the group.  

About stockpiling information, be sure to download it to a disk.  I had

some wonderful information, almost a year's worth, on my hard drive

before it crashed.  It brought home the need to back up files.

> My name is Mary, and I just usually read the posts, stockpiling the things I

> want to keep for that date when we will begin our own.

My landlord just sold a 30x100 foot metal greenhouse for $400.  It has

end panels but no fans, etc.  Three guys worked all day to dismantle it

this week and I would guess they have at least one more day to finish. 

Set-up will take a good couple of days as well.  Think long and hard

abut buying a used one.  There is a lot of effort required.

> Also, I have been offered a used greenhouse for sale. It is 20 by 50, with

> only the metal supports---no heater, visquine, etc.     What should I expect

> to pay for this?

Adriana

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| Message 8                                                           |

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Subject: Ceviche

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:04:36 -0400

> There are as many ceviche recipes as there are households. Let's hear some

> others...

Victoria,

Thanks for the report on the VI aquaponics course.  I would have loved

to have been there.  I love ceviche and have tried many different

recipes.  I finally settled on this one as the very best.

CEVICHE

-------

1.  Cut 1 1/2 - 2# mild fish into 3/4" cubes

2.  Cover it with the juice of 2 large lemons and 2 limes (if you can

get ahold of some calamondins, sort of like a tiny sour orange, throw in

the juice of 6-8 of them)

3.  Add to the fish:

        1/2 cup finely chopped onion

        1 garlic clove, chopped

        1 fresh jalapeņo, sliced

        1 tsp salt

4.  Refrigerate fish for 2-4 hours

5. In a separate container mix and refrigerate

        1 medium tomato, chopped

        1/2 onion, sliced

        1/4-1/2 cup chopped cilantro

        Lemon/lime juice to cover

6.  Just before serving combine the fish and the tomato mixtures. 

Keeping the two separate until this point allows the tomato to retain

its flavor better, providing a great contrast with the fish.

7.  Serve on crackers.  Yum!

Option:  Use shrimp or scallops instead of fish.

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| Message 9                                                           |

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Subject: How are you doing?

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:08:04 -0400

Hi Gail,

How are your ailments doing?  I just got back from a week at the beach

and feel somehat relaxed and ready to tackle life and business again. 

The beach where we stayed is just 30 minutes from here so I went back

and forth to the greenhouse every day.  It was a nice change of pace.

I just introduced my lacewings and trichogramma (for army worms) into my

greenhouse this week.  Other than staying away from pyrethrins are there

any precautions?  

Adriana

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| Message 10                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

From:    "Jim Sealy Jr." 

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:58:36 -0500

Hi Tom,

I tend to avoid Y2K survival discussions, but I was wondering: For how long

a term

are you talking about needing to provide food with your system? For how many

people? 

If you're talking years (catfish growth cycle from eggs to table), or even

months

(many vegs) then you're going to need a much larger greenhouse than you've

described

if you plan to feed a family full time from it, much less have any surplus.

 During the ice storm of '94, we were without grid power for 6 weeks at the

farm and

survived well enough, but only because we were able to purchase replacement

fuel.

We've since increased our fuel capacity to a 6 month supply, but only due to

economies of scale in purchasing, rather than a need for that kind of long term

supply. I'm also expecting to pick up some good deals on generators about

March of

2000.

As an aside: Our worst case plan for Y2K involves our farms full production

being

gone in 12 weeks And I'm talking about not just our family's combined 60

acres of

catfish, 700 head of cows, and 22 greenhouses (11,000 sq.ft.) of vegs, but

all local

production within 50 miles of Memphis. This is term is due to expected

demand from

the community rather than long term production capacity. We expect that if

anarchy

comes, we'll need an army to defend the property (ThunderDome scenario),

which isn't

likely.

Jim

Bagelhole1 wrote:

> 

> Hi,

>         I was hoping for some more help. 

> 

>                 Tom Osher

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| Message 11                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

From:    Bagelhole1

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:27:54 EDT

In a message dated 7/25/99 5:42:18 PM, PDOSSJR writes:

<>

Not to misdirect the purpose of this list-serve, because I am interested in 

fishfarming alot. But y2k is also my specialty. Just remember, no one can 

know what percent will not be compliant before 2000, and there will be some, 

since its impossible for them all to be fixed in time, and no one can know 

what percent could cause collapse of the infrastructure. The possibility of 

infrastructure collapse is not remote enough to ignore. So its prudent to 

inventory/stockpile, and make yourself as self-sustainable as possible, and 

to be a model for your neighborhood, because you don't want to be the only 

one prepared if things get heavy, you want everyone around you to be equally 

prepared.

                                                                                

                                        Good luck,

                                                                                

                                        Tom O

                                                                                

                        http://bagelhole.hypermart.net  

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| Message 12                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

From:    "Brett Deiser" 

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:49:07 -0500

>I can't imagine why anyone who owned a generator and dried food would want

to

>sell them after the first of the year.

    The thought being that most people are preparing  for the end of society

as we know it and this won't happen. the only reason for the stock to dip is

imagination and nothing more. the y2k "bug" wil be no worse than any other

glitch that computers have had or ever will have. The majority of people

probaly won't even know about most of the glitches that occur,power won't

fail world wide, prison gates won't open, and pace makers won't stop

working. life will go on as it has when every other dooms day predition has

been made.

>Too much good press coming from the government in hopes of averting a

panic.

    A panic based on impresions and not on facts.

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| Message 13                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline

From:    Carolyn Hoagland 

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:26:25 -0500

Tom,

I agree with grizzly.  Your aquaponics experiments should proceed after you have

aquired enough rice/beans/dried greens and vitamins to assauge your concerns.

Carolyn

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| Message 14                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:21:51 -0400

Ditto,

If your objective is to survive Y2K you can't gamble with untried

systems.  So you should provide adequate stored food for 3-6 months. In

the interim you can set up your aquaponic system and work the bugs out.  

If you want an aquaponic system up and running in the least amount of

time you should go "turn-key" following plans such as Paula and Tom have

to offer.  Later you can experiment with different variations.  Even if

you go with an existing system, no two greenhouses or cities are exactly

the same.  What works well in one doesn't always work well in another.

A good model of sustainability requires adequate planning and testing of

a prototype system, something you don't have the time for if you're

serious about the need to plan for survival.  I've had my hydroponic

system up and running for 6 months and every month has brought a

different challenge and a new learning experience.  It would be really

scary if my family had to survive on it given all of the unknowns.

However, I feel much more qualified to do it now than I did 6 months

ago.

A couple of other thoughts.  1.  Have you checked with zoning and fish

and wildlife regulators regarding tilapia species allowed and the

approval process required to set up this type of operation?  You should

do so sooner rather than later as there are different restrictions in

different states.  2.  Growing Edge Magazine published an excellent

article in the last 2 months with specific recommendations for survival

gardening.  It listed the amount of square footage and number of plants

of different varieties required to provide a balanced diet for a family

of four.  They specifically recommended that grains be purchased since

it is more cost-effective to buy rice and wheat than to raise it

hydroponically.

Adriana

> I agree with grizzly.  Your aquaponics experiments should proceed after

you have

> aquired enough rice/beans/dried greens and vitamins to assauge your concerns.

> 

> Carolyn

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| Message 15                                                          |

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Subject: Re: misc questions and intro

From:    atkindw@cwjamaica.com (david w atkinson)

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:26:03 -0500

Hi Mary,

Have you ever thought of building a greenhouse?

I cannot help you with prices, but consider what you will pay for the shell

and then add the cost to get the basic infrastructure in place to get the

buidling to a stage where it can function.

Compare the cost to building one yourself.  I found some plans over the

internet where you can build one yourself, or with the help of friends, if

your are not do-it-yourself inclined.

As soon as I can the address in my archives, I will post it to the group.

Maybe others out there in the group have some ideas too.

David (from Jamaica West Indies)

atkindw@cwjamaica.com

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| Message 16                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline

From:    atkindw@cwjamaica.com (david w atkinson)

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:50:57 -0500

Hi Tom,

I understand your idea to try and develop a low-cost system that is

sustainable that depends very little on the system in the event of the

millemium bug crisis hitting.

The point I want to focus on is the idea of sustainability.  There are many

ideas out there for aquaponics and they are all neither correct nor

incorrect.  Because they all work to some degree to provide food for the

'owner(s)' of the system.

If the focus is economic sustainability, then you would have to examine the

profitability of the system by focusing on the most efficient system in

terms of cost and the most productive one.  In other words strike the

balance between profitability and productivity.

If the focus is on sustainability and food production for the

family/community, then by all means explore your ideas & develop them (with

the help of the group).

As one who lives in a developing country, cost is the single most

prohibitive factor in hindering production.  Cost of land acquisition,

whether by purchase &/or leasing, to start.  Followed by equipment

acquisition.  We are already in the hole maybe JA$1M - JA$2M.  Production

has not even started.

There was a German living here who was into the hydroponic production of

vegetables.  He has packed up earlier this year and deceided to start over

in another Caribbean country, because it is easier there.

I myself have not ven acquired land to start my own operation yet and I have

been searching for over five years now.  In the meantime, I continue to read

and share and develop the knowledge base for that day, ...:-)

Therefore Tom, I do not know if the few apparent 'negative' comments are

discouraging to you, but keep on keeping on.  People like me will benefit

from the ideas you bring to this group.  When we all share, we all learn and

we all grow.  There have been a few constructive criticisms, let them come,

we need those too.

I do not know if you have explored the S & S Aquafarms system by the

Speranos, but of all the systems I have come accross, their system seems to

give the best balance between productivity & profitability for commercial

use.  the good thing is that their system can also be used for community

development as well as providing food for single family use.

Please let us hear the opinion of others out there who can be of help to Tom.

David (from Jamaica West Indies)

atkindw@cwjamaica.com 

PS      I just re-read this message, and man is it ever emotive. :-)

        Sorry for the length.  You guys may get tired just reading this

post. :-)

Carolyn Wrote:

>Tom,

>

>I agree with grizzly.  Your aquaponics experiments should proceed after you

have

>aquired enough rice/beans/dried greens and vitamins to assauge your concerns.

>

>Carolyn

>

>

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| Message 17                                                          |

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Subject: Re: How are you doing?

From:    Jon Hays 

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:27:35 -0600

Hello Adriana: I am having a mental block right now but there is a virus 

that attachs  worms and I can't think  of it now but I bet you ask and you 

will get all kinds of help.

Good Luck John Hays

At 12:08 PM 7/25/99 , you wrote:

>Hi Gail,

>

>How are your ailments doing?  I just got back from a week at the beach

>and feel somehat relaxed and ready to tackle life and business again.

>The beach where we stayed is just 30 minutes from here so I went back

>and forth to the greenhouse every day.  It was a nice change of pace.

>

>I just introduced my lacewings and trichogramma (for army worms) into my

>greenhouse this week.  Other than staying away from pyrethrins are there

>any precautions?

>

>Adriana

John Hays

1903 Pebble Hill Rd.

Carlsbad, NM  88220

1-505-887-0102

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| Message 18                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming

From:    "Marcy L. Nameth" 

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:39:37 -0700

I`m gonna buy stock like crazy during the stock market dip

(if it happens) :>

-- 

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| Message 19                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline

From:    Bagelhole1

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:56:54 EDT

In a message dated 7/26/99 12:29:59 AM, choagland@connectec.com writes:

<>

I intend to inventory/stockpile, anyway. But I want to be a model for 

low-tech, sustainability, and make community food security a reality. 

Thinking about raising insects to eat. But no one has addressed any of my 

latest questions about 

fishfarming. In the meantime, spent the day doing the backbreaking work of 

digging up the trenches and shoring up the walkway in the middle. I was going 

to build a frame for the door, but that's now another few days away. Did find 

a suitable door in my basement ( I do hauling ), so I've got all my wood for 

free, so far.

                                                                                

                                        Vegetables and fish,

                                                                                

                                                Tom O (bagelhole1)

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| Message 20                                                          |

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Subject: Re: misc questions and intro

From:    "tbird2" 

Date:    Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:22:55 -0500

Thanks,

I would be interested. I will be watching for information.

Mary

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| Message 21                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline

From:    Bagelhole1

Date:    Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:25:15 EDT

David thank you for your kind support and I appreciate all the answers and 

interest so far even if they are cautionary sometimes, I do need to be 

cautious. My fishfarm/greenhouse will  be for food for myself and whoever 

else may be living here (seems like there are always guests) and maybe my 

neighbors too, if I can surprise everyone and grow more than I need.

Still trying to figure which type of tilepia ( I should probably eat one 

somewhere in Chinatown, to be sure I like them ). Where is the best source, 

how long do they take to get, what size (to be ready by 1/1/2000), where to 

get a good solar pump, will they eat algae, earthworms, insects, I know 

they'll eat some form of pellets, . I'm thinking about raising crickets, 

maggots, or mealworms for food (for the fish and myself). Gotta get past 

being squeamish. I'ma vegetarian, but I'm going to compromise a little for 

protein. 

I wish I had time to learn from my mistakes, and I probably will anyway, but 

of course, I'm trying to avoid that by having access to all the good people 

on this list-serve. 

                                                                                

                                                Synergistically,

                                                                                

                                                Tom O (baglehole1)

S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124

Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/



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