Aquaponics Digest - Mon 07/26/99
Message 1: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
from MUDDTOO
Message 2: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
from Bagelhole1
Message 3: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
from "Jim Sealy Jr."
Message 4: Pest Control - Virus that attacks worms
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 5: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
from "grizzly"
Message 6: RE: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
from "Ronald W. Brooks"
Message 7: Re: Pest Control - Virus that attacks worms
from Jon Hays
Message 8: Re: Pest Control - Virus that attacks worms
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 9: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
from Bagelhole1
Message 10: Re: RE: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
from Bagelhole1
Message 11: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
from Bagelhole1
Message 12: Re: changing my address
from dfranks@principia.edu (Doug Franks)
Message 13: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
from "grizzly"
Message 14: Y2K Preparation
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 15: RE: Y2K Preparation
from "Ronald W. Brooks"
Message 16: Re: Pest Control - Virus that attacks worms
from Jon Hays
Message 17: Re: Pest Control - Virus that attacks worms
from Jon Hays
Message 18: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
from "TGTX"
Message 19: Re: Pest Control - Virus that attacks worms
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 20: Re: Pest Control - Virus that attacks worms
from Jon Hays
Message 21: Message length
from S & S Aqua Farm
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
From: MUDDTOO
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 01:43:30 EDT
Hello Tom,
Good luck to you. I grow a lot of vegetables in 2-liter bottles and think it
may work if they're cheap, like free, because you'll need a bunch. If you
secured them all around the edge of your trench (imagine a picket fence made
with inverted 2-liter bottles), fed from 1/2 black pvc pipe sold at Walmart
for garden misters, you could just let them drain back down into the fish
water without the return piping. Keep them spaced 8 inches apart and they'll
allow you to grow nearly anything from lettuce to tomatoes. And buy fish
food that taste good 'cause you may have to eat it too. It will take a whole
lot of fish food to feed the number of fish needed to create the nutrient
level needed to grow loads of vegetables. If the fish die so do the
vegetables. The problem I see with fish is that you'll have to buy their
feed and that may be very difficult if it gets as bad a you think. You don't
want to get trapped having to trade your food for fish feed to allow you to
grow more food.
I'd recommend instead buying goats, let them eat weeds, take their poop and
fertilizer the vegetables planted in the trenches in the greenhouse.
Joel
In a message dated 7/25/99 8:59:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Bagelhole1 writes:
> I intend to inventory/stockpile, anyway. But I want to be a model for
> low-tech, sustainability, and make community food security a reality.
> Thinking about raising insects to eat. But no one has addressed any of my
> latest questions about
> fishfarming. In the meantime, spent the day doing the backbreaking work of
> digging up the trenches and shoring up the walkway in the middle. I was
> going
> to build a frame for the door, but that's now another few days away. Did
> find
> a suitable door in my basement ( I do hauling ), so I've got all my wood
for
>
> free, so far.
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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
From: Bagelhole1
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 02:29:37 EDT
Dear Joel,
Thanks for your response. The 2 liter bottles I can get for free
from the recycle place nearby. Thanks for the pvc tip. I intend to pump the
fish water maybe with some seaweed powder or compost tea mist thru the tube
to the plants and have the liquid drip back into the trench. The bottles will
be suspended over the water from the greenhouse structure (found pipe, bent).
Spent the day shoring up the walkway in the middle, since that didn't look
strong enough, and was afraid it might slip slowly in the trench after it was
all set up and that would be a mess. Still have more to do tomorrow. Still
don't know which type of tilepia, where to buy them, how big they should be
to be ready to eat by 1/1/2000. I suspect that I shall eventually need a
separate trench for fry and or fingerlings, later, after 2000, for breeding
too.I think I read that its better to get all males.
Can I expect algae to form from sun hitting water? And won't the fish eat it?
Don't forget that I'm hoping to be a model so that others can copy/improvise
to help create community food security and self-reliance in the urban
environment. That is why the internet will hopefully serve to minimalize
errors and save time learning. Grateful for all the help, so far.
Fish dreams,
Tom O (bagelhole1)
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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
From: "Jim Sealy Jr."
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 01:26:30 -0500
Tom,
In order to run an aquaponic greenhouse operation you need to remember that
this
isn't a perpetual motion machine. You have to have feed of some sort as an
input.
You've possibly missed the biggest question you need answered if you want to
make
this work as a survival food supply: Where will I get feed for the fish?
This suddenly dawned on me with your remark below about being a vegetarian but
compromising for the protein. The fish have to have protein to make waste to
supply
the vegetables. Lots of it.. If you raise earthworms or crickets, they'll need
food.. Aquaponics can be big fun, and a good business if you're a good
salesman and
gardener, but what you need is land. Think about the average density of
crickets,
worms, or fish in a natural area. That points out the size grow area you'll
need if
you can't take advantage of the technology for commercial feed production.
If you're going to raise enough fish for just you to live on.. Let's say 2 nice
fillets per day, which would be less than I like, but maybe enough to live
on with
the vegs you raise in a greenhouse or garden, you're talking about 365 fish
at 1.5
lb. per fish. These fish will need roughly 2.25 lb of feed if you hit a good
feed
conversion ratio of 1.5:1, so we're talking 821 lb/yr of high quality processed
feed.
But... You'll need quite a bit more than 365 fingerlings to start up veg
production.
And you'll get pretty hungry waiting that first 9 months to a year on them
to grow
up so you can have that first fillet for dinner and it'll probably be a little
skimpy that early.
So.. Let's assume you start tomorrow with a visit to the fish farm and buy
enough
mostly grown fish to do you until their offspring start to reach table size..
That'll give you a good base for the grow tables.. Oops, I forgot to factor
in how
much grow bed you'll be able to supply with nutrients... So let's see..
Following
the generally accepted ratios, you need about 7 lb of fish per foot of
growbed which
gives us about 26 cu ft of growbed to start with based on 365 fish assuming
1/2 lb
starter stock. That's about _1_ 4' x 8' grow table if you run the gravel a
little
lean early on.
I like a well rounded meal, so how about some corn , peppers, or tomatoes with
those fillets. To give the benefit of the doubt to production quality
benefits of
the aquaponic system, I'll quadruple the figures I use for figuring a first
harvest
of outdoor crops (c=13,000#/ac.,p=2,500#/ac.,t=13,000#/ac, production in 60-70
days). That gives 20 lb. of corn, 4 lb of peppers[OK so I _don't_ grow a
very heavy
pepper], or 20 lb of tomatoes in about 2 months if everything works out right.
By then you'll have fed about 150 lb of feed and your fish will be big
enough you
could have a pretty good fish fry if you invite the neighbors, and they
don't mind
small fillets. If you're working on survival, I'd stick to sacks of corn
meal and
soy products, lots of canned goods, buy a fishing pole, and move to the
country. But
if you're looking for a fun way to spend some time, build a greenhouse.
Jim
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Subject: Pest Control - Virus that attacks worms
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 05:43:14 -0400
Thanks Jon,
I know that Gardens Alive! has a beneficial nematode that attacks
worms. Other than that there is Naturalis-O BotaniGard which have
beauveria bassiana which makes them stop eating almost immediately. Is
that what you are thinking of?
My local extension agent recommended a book published by Cornell called
Natural Enemies of Vegetable Insect Pests by Michael Hoffman and Anne
Frodsham. At $14.95 it may be a good investment.
Adriana
Jon Hays wrote:
>
> Hello Adriana: I am having a mental block right now but there is a virus
> that attachs worms and I can't think of it now but I bet you ask and you
> will get all kinds of help.
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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
From: "grizzly"
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:21:21 -0400
HiTom,first I would like to say,I'm not trying to rain on your party,I think
your idea is admirable,so here are a few points to help you succeed.1The
design of your trenches,will pose a few problems,you will need aeration,it
will have dead water spaces,in the corners,if possible round of the corners
like a oval racetrack,cleaning is another concern,you should have a slant in
the bottom design,with the pump in the lowest part if you want to utilize
the solids for plants,because of poor circulation,you will need to
distribute air evenly along the length of the trench,if you don't the fish
will stack up at the point of aeration,in your part of the country,you
probably won't have to be concerned,but in colder climes,the trenches will
have tremendous heat loss thru the ground.2.You need to
consider,ventilation,shading,lighting,insect control,heating and
cooling,fish and plant disease control.3.You will need to educate people,in
aqua culture,agriculture,carpentry,heating and cooling,plumbing,electrical
wiring,and especially patience.4.you will need to divide the world into
regions,and give the people a basis to get started,with what materials that
are available in their region,and to grow what they already have available
locally,because if your fears come true,i don't believe they will be able to
order seeds from Jerry's.5. you will need to translate your ideas into many
different launguages,and how you will get the information to them,if the
power goes down so will the web.Tom your mission should you decide to accept
it is tremendous,this tape will self-destuct in 5 months.It is truly sad and
ironic,that this high technology,which is supposed to improve upon
everything,is like a two headed snake.I said a long time ago,one day the
computer will go down and the world will stop,maybe in the future,man can
make all of his high-tech toys out of edible materials! Godspeed Tom! Griz
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Subject: RE: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
From: "Ronald W. Brooks"
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:48:39 -0400
Tom Been away from the computer for a few days so I will try to answer your
concerns point by point
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: aquaponics
-> [mailto:aquaponics]On Behalf Of Bagelhole1
-> Sent: Saturday, July 24, 1999 9:08 PM
-> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
-> Subject: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
->
->
-> I am hoping
-> that you might have a moment to respond with a little guidance.
-> I still need
-> to know where to buy the tilepia, which type, which size (need
-> to be ready by
-> 1/1 2000), whether they all need to be male, and how long it
-> usually takes to
-> get them.
You can buy the Tilapia from
Living Water Tilapia Farm
171 John Smith Road
Poplarville, MS 39470
601-795-8094
http://www.tilapia.net
they sell both all male and mixed sex Nile.
Getting 2 inch all male you should be able to start harvesting a few of the
biggest in 6 months under intensive feeding . If you want to sustainable you
will also need some breeders. I would think you would be able to get the
fish within a couple of weeks from order. The rule of thumb is 9 months from
egg to plate.
-> My trench is roughly 22'x 2'x 2 1/2'. I intend to cover the
-> trenches with a heavy plastic. I'm not sure what to feed the
-> fish - pellets,
-> worms, and/or algae (if that grows in the trenches).
When we talk about feed to growth rate we are talking about feeding a
complete pellet diet. I feed at 4% of body weight . While the fish will eat
all the algae that grows and certain greens that you throw in you should
expect to almost double the time to harvest if that is all that is feed. As
for worms , some people have had luck but Tilapia are vegetarians by
nature. Plus you would have to have a facility that is almost an acre to be
able to feed the amount of worms needed. I just don't think it would be
feasible in sustainable situation. I am running water hyacinth and water
cress in the settling tanks and the fish then are fed free choice of these
plants. It seems to stimulate the appetite.
->Whether or not I will
-> need a biofilter, I guess a timer for the pump ( how large a
-> pump, and which
-> one).
That depends on what type of media you plan on using in the soda bottles. If
you can include a gravel bench in the system also it would provide a place
for bio-filtration plus an area for growing. A 4' X 8' bench six inches deep
with pea gravel.
In the current issue of The Growing Edge Volume 10 # 6 there is an article
on survival gardens. It is very well done and includes calorie needs by age.
As far as running catfish in with the Tilapia , catfish will eat whatever
they can get in their mouths , so you would have to sort by size often.
Ron
The One Who Walks Two Paths
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Subject: Re: Pest Control - Virus that attacks worms
From: Jon Hays
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:38:31 -0600
Hello Adriana: I looked it up in the new Johnny's catalog and on page
102 Dipel Products.
The active ingredient, Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) var. Kurstaki.
I hope this helps. I know it works wonders on cabbage loopers.
Best regards
John Hays
At 03:43 AM 7/26/99 , you wrote:
>Thanks Jon,
>
>I know that Gardens Alive! has a beneficial nematode that attacks
>worms. Other than that there is Naturalis-O BotaniGard which have
>beauveria bassiana which makes them stop eating almost immediately. Is
>that what you are thinking of?
>
>My local extension agent recommended a book published by Cornell called
>Natural Enemies of Vegetable Insect Pests by Michael Hoffman and Anne
>Frodsham. At $14.95 it may be a good investment.
>
>Adriana
John Hays
1903 Pebble Hill Rd.
Carlsbad, NM 88220
1-505-887-0102
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Subject: Re: Pest Control - Virus that attacks worms
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:47:43 -0400
Hi Jon,
BT, of course! It's been part of my arsenal from day one so I didn't
even mention it. It works wonders on cutworms and cabbage loopers but
doesn't touch the armyworms. That's why I added the Naturalis-O which
is somewhat effective but does not completely eradicate them. My
extension agents sings hi praise for something called Spin-Tor but at
$500/gallon it's out of my reach. She says it works on most vegetable
pests and has recently been approved.
Adriana
Jon Hays wrote:
>
> Hello Adriana: I looked it up in the new Johnny's catalog and on page
> 102 Dipel Products.
> The active ingredient, Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) var. Kurstaki.
> I hope this helps. I know it works wonders on cabbage loopers.
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Subject: Re: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
From: Bagelhole1
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:09:11 EDT
In a message dated 7/26/99 3:49:26 PM, grizzly@monroeaccess.net writes:
<>
Great response Grizzly. Some great tips, especially, rounded corners and
slanted trench. Am concerned about heat loss thru soil, maybe I should put
something to insulate, under the 6 mil plastic, though in San Francisco it
doesn't usually ever snow. Maybe glass over the trench (with a little air
space) might help.
BTW, I intend to disseminate the info over the internet, linking my still
unfixed website, http://bagelhole.hypermart.net , all of course before 2000.
I will have it ordered according to place, function, and alphabetically. This
is all about community contingency prep for y2k along with developing
self-reliance and community food security. Also, I hope to put some photos
out over the net, once there is something worth photographing.
Thanks again,
Tom O (bagelhole1)
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Subject: Re: RE: Hope this is all I'll need to know to start the fishfarming
From: Bagelhole1
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:57:03 EDT
Dear Ron,
As usual your answers are forthright and to the point, thanks
so much.
Tom O (bagelhole1)
One Who Tries To Stay On The Path
http://bagelhole.hypermart.net
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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
From: Bagelhole1
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:04:08 EDT
Dear Jim,
Thanks for your response. It looks like pellets and maybe
some vegetation growing in there as per Ron. I'll be using aeroponics as
opposed to soil beds with the hope of maximizing space, need to send
photo,once its built, though there is a drawing at my website,
http://bagelhole.hypermart.net in the projects section. I must try before I
fail or if I'm to succeed. And so I continue.
Unstoppably,
Tom O (bagelhole1)
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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
From: "grizzly"
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:18:38 -0400
I believe we would be wise to stock up now,because even if we don't have a
crisis,toward the end of the year,fears will rise,retailers will smell money
and prices will probably double or triple,so if there's not a crisis from
y2k there might be one from inflation.I hope the food producers don't sit on
it and cry shortage,but you never know,anything for a buck. griz
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Subject: Y2K Preparation
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:41:30 -0400
Thanks to Tom for bringing Y2K preparedness back to mind.
Whether we believe the situation will be drastic or not, those of us
with hydroponic or aquaponic systems should probably be thinking of
stocking up on feed, seed and fertilizers soon in order to avoid getting
caught in the end of the year panic.
Adriana
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Subject: RE: Y2K Preparation
From: "Ronald W. Brooks"
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:53:22 -0400
Lets not forget that if there are rolling blackouts , we need to make sure
our plans include an emergency power / aeration source. So top of oxygen and
fuel sources early. My local power company told me that they would not
guarantee power and that they expect rolling brownouts for a week or two .
And my fish would not be high on their priority list for getting power back
on , so to get a backup generator.
Ron
The One Who Walks Two Paths
ICQ 44271371
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Subject: Re: Pest Control - Virus that attacks worms
From: Jon Hays
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:02:43 -0600
Well Adriana we tried. If I run across anything (besides a hammer and
board)I will let you know.
Best regards
John hays
John Hays
1903 Pebble Hill Rd.
Carlsbad, NM 88220
1-505-887-0102
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Subject: Re: Pest Control - Virus that attacks worms
From: Jon Hays
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:11:38 -0600
Bordeaux mixture.
Add 3 ounces of cooper sulfate (blue stone) to 3 gallons of water and
dissolve thoroughly. Add 5 ounces of hydrated lime and mix completely.
Use without further dilution. This fungicide-insecticide can be stored but
is corrosive to metal containers. While primarily a fungicide, it is also
very repellent to many insects such as flea beetles, leafhoppers, and
potato psyllid, when sprayed over the leaves of plants.
Hope this helps.
John Hays
John Hays
1903 Pebble Hill Rd.
Carlsbad, NM 88220
1-505-887-0102
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Subject: Re: Tom's aquaponic deadline
From: "TGTX"
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:28:54 -0500
Jim wrote:
> small fillets. If you're working on survival, I'd stick to sacks of corn
meal and
> soy products, lots of canned goods, buy a fishing pole, and move to the
country. But
> if you're looking for a fun way to spend some time, build a greenhouse.
> Jim
Jim, I really appreciate your posts. I ALWAYS benefit in some way when I
read one of your contributions. So, thank you.
Ted
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Subject: Re: Pest Control - Virus that attacks worms
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:51:15 -0400
Bordeaux mixture, sounds like something good to drink. Oh one new pest
I have attracted is called a fleahopper (not flea beatle or leaf
hopper). It makes white stippled marks on the leaves. The best I've
been able to find out from my reasearch is that it is treated as you
would aphids. I may just try the Bordeaux.
Thanks again, Adriana
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Subject: Re: Pest Control - Virus that attacks worms
From: Jon Hays
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:05:33 -0600
Be sure to try the Bordeaux mixture on flee hoppers because they transmit
all kinds of diseases and maybe it will help.
John
John Hays
1903 Pebble Hill Rd.
Carlsbad, NM 88220
1-505-887-0102
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Subject: Message length
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:05:11 -0500
Members, please, when you repost an entire message for a short response, it
really adds to the total volume of the list (and especially the digest
version) without additional content.
Please snip the original message to just the section that would keep the
thought moving, then add your reply. It would be appreciated.
Thanks
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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