Aquaponics Digest - Tue 09/07/99
Message 1: Re: A few more questions
from "JAY MYERS"
Message 2: Re: A few more questions
from "Tunji Ladoja"
Message 3: RE: A few more questions
from "Ronald W. Brooks"
Message 4: Re: A few more questions
from "JAY MYERS"
Message 5: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Fri 09/03/99
from "JAY MYERS"
Message 6: Re: Greenhouse cooling in Florida
from Ronald Polka
Message 7: Re: Greenhouse cooling in Florida
from "William Brown"
Message 8: Re: Greenhouse cooling in Florida
from William Evans
Message 9: abstracts/papers wanted
from Jacky Foo
Message 10: Re: abstracts/papers wanted
from "vpage"
Message 11: Re: Greenhouse cooling in Florida
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 12: Re: Greenhouse cooling
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 13: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Fri 09/03/99
from Jennifer Maynard
Message 14: Looking for the best deal for hybrid Tilapias (half grown)
from Bagelhole1
Message 15: Re: Greenhouse cooling
from "Paige"
Message 16: Need off grid advice
from "Jewel Lopez"
Message 17: Re: aphid control
from "SULFERCREEK"
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Subject: Re: A few more questions
From: "JAY MYERS"
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 07:19:00 -0500
Ron
I have some of Mike Sipes brood stock and so far they are making babies at a
very nice rate. The largest are now about an inch long (from new eggs in
her mouth 7 Aug 99) and are growing well. They don't seem to have 3 eyes or
anything like that. I don't know that I would expect to continue breeding
these new guys - they are hybrid and designed to grow & eat. I'm new at
this so I don't know how that compares to the rest of the world, but I'm
happy so far.
I bought a male and 5 females. He gave me a extra male and an extra female,
a manual on breeding, and a video on large scale raising for $300. Maybe
that's high - don't know - but he spent the better half of a day with me -
teaching & showing me how to, and planting a lot of seeds in my brain on all
kinds of ideas.
I was familiar with his work at the Tropicana orange juice wastewater plant
in the late 70's and got to understand his views of what went on. If they
did it again now it would work like gangbusters due to their plant
improvements and controls.
At any rate, this is one guy who is happy with Mike Sipes fish.
Jay
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Subject: Re: A few more questions
From: "Tunji Ladoja"
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 13:46:28 -0700
Thanks for the information Jan,
I havent't bought Mike Sipe's Fish yet but am still considering them.
Do you have specific growth rates or any other information
Tunji
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Subject: RE: A few more questions
From: "Ronald W. Brooks"
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:52:09 -0400
Jay
Glad to hear some positive feedback. I have been playing around with the
idea of calling Mike to arrange a visit to check out what he is doing. I
think $37 a fish is expensive. I know he has a lot of research and time into
these hybrids. But in the real world I think he would have a lot more takers
if his fish were in the range of $15 - $20 a piece . I know at that price I
could afford to trial some of his fish. For a lot of us smaller farms cost
is a big issue. Even if he would sell some non-breeding size at a reduced
price . Oh well to early in the morning to make sense :)
Ron
The One Who Walks Two Paths
ICQ 44271371
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Subject: Re: A few more questions
From: "JAY MYERS"
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 07:58:00 -0500
Tunji
>From 7 Aug til today they have grown from new eggs in her mouth to about 1".
That's about as scientific as I've been. I'm not sure that I have the "new"
hybrid that is being talked about on this list, but I have asked Mike today.
They're also very cute !
Jay
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Fri 09/03/99
From: "JAY MYERS"
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 07:50:49 -0500
Gail -
>I use Citricidel diluted in the cooling water for my greens, sprouts and
>herbs.
Q-How do you mean you use it in the cooling water - do you inject it into a
misting system ?
>Citricidel is a product that can be used internally.
Q- By the plants, or humans ?
Thanks
Jay
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Subject: Re: Greenhouse cooling in Florida
From: Ronald Polka
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:23:59 -0600
At 09:00 AM 9/5/1999 +1000, you wrote:
>On Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 06:20:47AM -0400, Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis
LaGatta wrote:
>
Adrianna
Regarding you cooling problem for a greenhoue in Florida. I would have to
suggest that evaporative cooling is out of the question for you due to the
high relative humidity. I have worked with evap cooling in greenhouses for
many years in the desert southwest and am acquainted with the limitations
for practical use. The psychrometric parameter that drives the
effectiveness of evaporative cooling is the wet bulb depression. That is
the temperature difference between the dry bulb temperature (standard air
temperature) and the wet bulb temperature (dew point) at a given relative
humidty and barometric pressure. Let's make some assumptions for Florida.
If the dry bulb temperature is 90 deg and the relative humidity is 70 %
which I guess is a pretty good day weatherwise and we use the sea level
psychrometric chart the maximum possible temperature decrease when the air
is cooled evaporatively is 11.5 degrees, from 90 to 78.5 degrees at
saturation. In practice greenhouse evaporative coolers can only achieve 50
to 80 % of the wet bulb depression. In this scenario it would be something
on the order of 6 to 9 deg which is not a lot of cooling. Here in New
Mexico we see evaporative cooler performance degrade substantially when the
relative humidity goes above 50 %. Evap coolers really shine when the
relative humidty is in the 10 to 30 % range.
To address your immediate problem of cooling in humid climates I would
guess that the most cost effective solution is to size up your exhaust
fans. Because you cannot easily reduce the greenhouse inlet air temperature
the other option is to increase the air flow through the greenhouse. A more
rapid air change rate will reduce the buildup of heat. The other often used
option is to use shade cloth or shade compound to reduce the solar heat
input. This is only practical if you can afford to allow less light into
the greenhouse. Generally this is okay for ornamental growers but not
desirable for field crops such as most vegetables. The short answer to this
problem is to move more air through the greenhouse. The long answer
requires a few inputs into greenhouse equipment sizing procedures.
Cooling with the use of your water table is problematic due to high
capital costs for the large liquid to air heat exchanger that would be
needed. It is doubtful that your greenhouse capital returns can make this
type of equipment cost effective. Due to the large cooling load of a
greenhouse the mass and heat transfer logistics may be overwhelming. This
type of approach cannot be considered without careful system design and
analysis before any attempt on construction is made.
Ron Polka
Southwest Technology Development Institute
New Mexico State University
Box 30001, Dept 3SOL
Las Cruces, NM 88003
rpolka@nmsu.edu
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Subject: Re: Greenhouse cooling in Florida
From: "William Brown"
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 07:06:14 -1000
Have similar problems in Hawaii as Florida, humidity runs around 76%.
Thanks for the discourse on evap. coolers. What I would like to know now is
how we calculate the heat generatedin a greenhouse and how fast it can
escape. There seems to be greater heat buildup in larger greenhouses than
smaller ones. I'm looking for that magic formual which will let me match
the heat generation to dissipation and give me an optimum size greenhouse
with natural cooling. As a rule of thumb we use 50 to 60 feet long by 20
feet wide, a greenhouse of this size stay fairly cool, close to ambient
temperature. After that the heat generation starts raising the interior
temperature above ambient. Any tips greatly appreciated.
William Brown mahiwai@cmpmail.com
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Subject: Re: Greenhouse cooling in Florida
From: William Evans
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:42:01 -0700
a practical magical formula....a thermostatically controlled fan maybe,
thermostat in the center of the g/ house, shaded, aand at least 5-6
feet off the ground, , to get a representative reading of the temp.
as for more cooling ....what about recirculating water in 1/2 poly
pipe, - a few thousand feet, shaded... we dont want it absorbing direct
radiant in the summer(would just add to the heat were trying to get rid
of) so it would have to be built in below the growing beds , or
tables,,would be great to have an alternate system in winter to take
advantage of direct sunlite on the poly -into a below ground
"sink"(1000 gals or so) of water..Only power would be smalll
recirculation pump- it would have some degree of cooling in the summer,
and would keep warm in the winter. Come to think of it would moderate
day to night swings as well.Water by volume is i think 10 times better
heatsink than stone.
billevans
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Subject: abstracts/papers wanted
From: Jacky Foo
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:45:01 +0200
Hi Everyone
I am looking for authors who are interested to present their work at the
Internet Conference on Material Flow Analysis of Integrated Bio-Systems
(March-Oct 2000) http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ic-mfa. An
abstract of the paper (1 page max) needs to be submitted first and upon
approval, the author(s) can then start to prepare the paper. There will be
awards of 150 USD (pending availability of funds) to authors from
developing countries to cover the additional costs for communication.
The themes that are of special interest to you are:
(a) Integrated Wastewater Treatment and Utilisation Systems that use plants
are used to clean the wastewaters.
(b) Constructed Building Complex, greenhouse and Eco-house Systems in/on
buildings for food production through hydroponics or aquaponics; and/or
waste water treatment and recycling.
The focus of the Internet Conference and thus your paper is on the material
flows of your system - i.e. to quantify inputs and outputs of the
sub-systems and to analyse such data to demonstrate economic-environmental
viability/sustainability.
Please contact me if you have questions or need more information
Jacky Foo
foo@swipnet.se
---
see http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ibs/ibsnet/e-sem-rose.html
for electronic seminar on : "Community-Based Technologies for Domestic
Wastewater Treatment and Reuse: options for urban agriculture"
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Subject: Re: Greenhouse cooling in Florida
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 13:36:55 -0400
Hi Ron,
Thank you for an excellent discussion on the subject of greenhouse
cooling. You sound like you have more than a passing expertise on the
subject. You confirmed my assumption that the maximum cooling that can
be expected from evaporative coolers is about 5 degrees in the summer.
For now I'm not using fans but will consider them in a permanent
greenhouse (I'm leasing a house now). Last May I put up 30% shade cloth
and I expect to be able to take it down in the middle of October. In a
permanent location I would like to look into a combination of reflective
aluminum shade cloth and fans (although I hate the noise). I understand
that while the black shade cloth blocks the passage of sunlight, it does
absorb heat into the fabric which is then slowly released into the
house.
Others have reported good results with Arizona Mist systems for
cooling, but I suspect that the same limitations of evaporative coolers
apply here too, is that correct?
Adriana Gutierrez
Green Cuisine
Sarasota, Florida
> Regarding you cooling problem for a greenhoue in Florida. I would
have to
> suggest that evaporative cooling is out of the question for you due to the
> high relative humidity.
> To address your immediate problem of cooling in humid climates I would
> guess that the most cost effective solution is to size up your exhaust
> fans.
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Subject: Re: Greenhouse cooling
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 13:48:16 -0400
Hi Joel,
When I lived in Virginia there was a builder who was heating an cooling
houses with this system. It looked like a very logical approach.
The well at the greenhouse is 400 feet deep and about 1,000 feet from
the house and is probably beyond messing with. It is ve-e-e-ery old and
the equipment needs to hold up until the beginning of next summer when
progress comes in the form a a new subdivision.
> A fluid is pumped through the underground hoses and the fluid comes out cold.
> In the winter when it's 30 deg F outside the system only has to heat the
> fluid from the ground temperature of 55 to 75 instead of from 30 to 75.
Out of pure curiosity, if the well water is 75 degrees, what
configuration would be required to cool 3,000 square feet from 100
degrees to 85 degrees? I suspect a pretty big one.
> Some where I have a program that could help calculate the amount of plastic
> pipe or volume of water needed to achieve a desired output. Holler if you
> need anything.
Adriana
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Fri 09/03/99
From: Jennifer Maynard
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 17:47:50 -0300
Jay, I imagine that it is being used in the water that is used to field cool the
crop immediately after it is harvested.
That field cooling step is a critical part of postharvest handling of
green/leafy vegetables to maintian a reasonable post harvest shelf life.
Jennifer
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Subject: Looking for the best deal for hybrid Tilapias (half grown)
From: Bagelhole1
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:05:59 EDT
What I was thinking of was a recent ( 2 weeks ago ) press blurb he released
about a new hybrid. I too am slightly skeptical , that is why I said I have
not tried these Hybrids. Plus I think his breeding pairs are just way to
expensive. I will stick to my Aurea X Nile cross :~)
Ron
_______________________
I think I would like to go with Aurea x Nile cross, maybe about 400 or so
that will be full grown (at least 25 %) by 1/1/2000. Still looking for the
best deal out there, if anyone has any more suggestions. The raceway is full
of water, we will be trying a few test fish, the 2 liter plastic bottles are
hung for the first group of seedlings. I wanted to buy a pump today and a
timing device, but that's falling thru, the tubing above is in place, but
still needs holes for the raindrip 1/4" to fit in above the vertical plastic
bottle structures over the trenches. The seedlings are about the right size
(some of them to go into the structures). We are almost there. I want to take
some pictures, once the plants are in to post on the website,
http://bagelhole.org, which for some reason isn't getting fixed up as per
webdesigner. Our goal, to help everyone become food independent, and to help
create a self-sustainable world. Aquaponics seems like a great way.
Kindly,
Tom O
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Subject: Re: Greenhouse cooling
From: "Paige"
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:07:03 -0400
> I've been reading your post discussing cooling your greenhouses. I spent
> some time in the midwest where it's also hot and humid. There the most
> efficient way to cool and heat is with a heat pump system. Plastic hose
is
> buried deep in the yard where the earth maintains a constant 55 deg F or
so.
> A fluid is pumped through the underground hoses and the fluid comes out
cold.
> In the winter when it's 30 deg F outside the system only has to heat the
> fluid from the ground temperature of 55 to 75 instead of from 30 to 75.
You
> can also easily see the advantage in the summer.
This system is called an earth loop. I've been doing some research on this
with residential applications and it seems like a logical greenhouse option
as well. Check out http://www.iaheatpump.org/lake.html for options. They
may also be able to answer the question about length of loop and greenhouse
square footage.
Aaron
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Subject: Need off grid advice
From: "Jewel Lopez"
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:04:40 -0600
Hello everyone!
We're starting an unusual experimental greenhouse project off the grid at
about 9000 ft. in the Rockies of So. CO. It's cold, but one of the best
areas in the country for solar. We're planning on using solar electric to
an extent, but the
more we can cut the better. Has anyone experimented with passive ways to
move the water around for the S&S system? We're building what are called
"pit" greenhouses for energy efficiency, and will heat it with a combination
of passive solar, and hydronics/solar hot water panels with a wood or
probane boiler back up system. The pit design is terraces cut into the
hillside. The only exposed area/glazing, is the roof. The terraces inside
the greenhouse make it so we could put all the tanks on the top terrace, and
gravity feed the beds, or the beds on the top terraces, and the tanks at the
bottom. We can at least cut out one direction of pumping, but we'd like to
figure out a way to do it with some daily manual pumping, and perhaps
gravity drip feeding?
Any ideas or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
thanks,
Greg
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Subject: Re: aphid control
From: "SULFERCREEK"
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:12:07 -0400
Bad bugs can't belch
Each plant has its own brix (sugar) reading when the bugs eat a high brix
plant it turns to alcohol
and kills them They can tell a high brix plant and stay away. So we give
the plant a false reading by spraying black strap molasses on the plant. We
use 1 qt per 100 gal on our hay to drive leaf hoppers away. We farm
organically and this has worked for us many times Also the molasses does
have some nutrient value
Dve Bok
Natures way Organic Farm
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