Aquaponics Digest - Wed 09/29/99
Message 1: Re: sonic bloom
from Carolyn Hoagland
Message 2: Re: sonic bloom
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 3: Re: processing
from Joy Pye-MacSwain
Message 4: Tilapia mail group at ONElist
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 5: tomatoes and nitrogen
from "Mark Brotman"
Message 6:
from
Message 7: RE: sonic bloom
from Conrad von Zirkwitz
Message 8: RE: sonic bloom
from Conrad von Zirkwitz
Message 9: RE: dumb question
from Conrad von Zirkwitz
Message 10: Re: dumb question
from Glen Seibert
Message 11: Re: nitrogen
from Jon Hays
Message 12: Re: dumb question
from dreadlox@cwjamaica.com (michael kent barnett)
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: sonic bloom
From: Carolyn Hoagland
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 02:26:00 -0500
Conrad,
Did you do any controlled tests?
There was no need, the results were beyond obvious.
How can the need for a controlled experiment be eliminated? I don't
doubt that your
plants did remarkably better after the sonic bloom treatment, but without a
control group
(plants that couldn't hear the tape), the cause of the better growth remain
in question.
The bird noises causing a reaction in the plants makes sense to me. I'd
like to see
it proven by the usual methods.
Call me Missouri Mary....
Carolyn Hoagland
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Subject: Re: sonic bloom
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 06:23:20 -0400
Could it have been the placebo effect? :>)...
> How can the need for a controlled experiment be eliminated?
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Subject: Re: processing
From: Joy Pye-MacSwain
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:08:34 -0300
Hummmmm with youngest son living in Alberta .._and_ a neat course in
aquaponics
sounds like it has potential. Add me onto your mailing list for
registration and course info. Thanks.
Joy Pye-MacSwain
Future Aqua Farms
vpage wrote:
> We have almost completed arrangements for a workshop on recirculation and
> aquaponics. It will be held in July 2000 at Lethbridge community College
> here in Alberta Canada.
> We will cover all aspects of land based aquaculture and hence my note.
> We are trying to find a good and up to date speaker on the processing
> component. It must be processing with recirculation in mind.
> ?? Thanks Victoria
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Subject: Tilapia mail group at ONElist
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 08:13:02 -0500
A couple of the subjects posted here in the last two weeks have also shown
up on the tilapia mail list...specifically marine systems and floating
feces. I believe the archives of the list are limited to members only, but
it's very simple to subscribe.
The original information I have shows this URL as the location for the list
subscription info for anyone who's interested.
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/tilapia
The subjects are primarily for recirculating aquaculture systems growing
tilapia, and of course much of what's discussed has relevance here as well.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: tomatoes and nitrogen
From: "Mark Brotman"
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:37:57 -0400
Too much nitrogen will give too much leaf growth and less fruit on both
tomatoes and strawberries. That said, Charley at UVI had some outstanding
tomatoes growing on one plant I saw down there. Perhaps the key is to limit
the number of tomato plants and use, e.g., leafy greens to soak up the excess
nitrogen.
mmiller@pcsia.com wrote:
> I think this is a sign of too much nitrogen when they are all leaves and no
> fruit. I grew some Presto's from Totally Tomatoes this year in the garden
> and am quite pleased with the result. Nice shape and color and moderate in
> size so not to much internal fiber like you see on massively large
> tomatoes. Mike Miller
>
> At 12:32 28-09-99 -0600, you wrote:
> >
> >Hi! Has anyone had success with tomatoes and what varities were most
> successful? We
> >have planted Cherry 100's, but the plants got huge with very little fruit!
> Any
> >suggestions as to where our errors are? We pollintaed heavily, but they
> still didn't
> >do a thing. We have had some luck with cucumbers hydroponically - just
> trying to
> >steer clear of basil as it really doesn't have a lot of value in our area!
> >Mike
> >
> >P.S. Other crop suggestions????????????
> >
> >
--
Mark J. Brotman
Aquaculturist
CropKing
5050 Greenwich Rd.
Seville, OH 44273
Tel: 330/769-2002, Fax: 330/769-2616
Email: mbrotman@cropking.com
On the web at http://www.cropking.com
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Subject:
From:
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:23:45 + 5 EST
Thanks for the tomatoe info. Nitrogen is/must be our culprit. What crops
can we
plant that thrive on nitrogen - spinach? kale? arugala? Please let me
know. What
about crops such as cucumbers etc? Any thoughts -
Also, what is the best way that you have tried to stake such tomato cages.
We thought
of buying just palin old tomatoe cages and anchoring them in the medium.
Any thoughts
on this one?
Mike
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Subject: RE: sonic bloom
From: Conrad von Zirkwitz
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:23:35 -0700
>Conrad,
> How can the need for a controlled experiment be eliminated? I don't
doubt that your
>plants did remarkably better after the sonic bloom treatment, but without a
control group
>(plants that couldn't hear the tape), the cause of the better growth remain
in question.
Yes, this is true, but through my faculties of observation and intuition I
was able to get all the scientific evidence that
I needed. I had to merely look at the growing tips of the plants and notice
how happy they were, pointing up towards the sun.
> The bird noises causing a reaction in the plants makes sense to me.
I'd like to see
>it proven by the usual methods.
Well, then by all means you should run a battery of tests with all sorts of
controls, gauges, tests, numbers, charts, etc.
if thats what it takes.
Conrad
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Subject: RE: sonic bloom
From: Conrad von Zirkwitz
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:25:04 -0700
maybe...maybe not
>Could it have been the placebo effect? :>)...
>> How can the need for a controlled experiment be eliminated?
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| Message 9 |
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Subject: RE: dumb question
From: Conrad von Zirkwitz
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:32:14 -0700
>A holder of spiritual forces?
>By that, do you mean a container?
yes
>Or, perhaps a vessel?
yes
>Or, a sepulchre?
yes...good word
>Or a crock?
yes
>Or a dumpster?
no
>Just Curious.
so am I, so am I
Conrad
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Subject: Re: dumb question
From: Glen Seibert
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:31:12 -0700
ranchos@sol.racsa.co.cr wrote:
>
> I assume the purpose of the medium (perlite, vermiculite, gravel, etc) is
> basically to hold up the plant while the roots get the nutrient, is there
> any reason why you can't just use dirt to do the same thing, assuming it's
> good, clean, maybe sterilized earth. The dirt could even be a source of
> trace elements missing from conventional nutrient formulas. Where I am
> (Costa Rica) those mediums are either not available or expensive.
>
> Jose
Hello Jose, with nods to William and Conrad:
(I'm not too familiar with the concepts of Biodynamics, Conrad; but the
idea that soil contains spiritual forces required by plants for growth
isn't so metaphysical as it first seems. Maybe its just a matter of
definitions afterall... In any case it is an elegant and beautiful
idea.)
Jose, the thing about soil is its much more than a support for plant
roots. Let's take a quick look at the interactions of
soil-nutrients-water-plant and then apply those relationships to
hydroponics.
PLANT NUTRIENT UPTAKE
Plants gather their nutrition from water-born elements dissolved by and
suspended in the water surrounding their root systems. (They use
atmospheric carbon and light through their leaves, too, but thats beyond
the scope of our interest here.)They also need air around their roots
The smallest tips of the roots grow "hairs" who's cell walls are
semi-permiable; that is, water and very small nutrient molecules can
pass through, driven by two forces: Osmotic Pressure and Water
Potential.
Osmotic Pressure is nature's desire for a balance of dissolved elements
is a solution. If there is more Nitrogen, Potassium or Phosphorous in
the water outside a plant root's cell wall, for example, than inside,
osmotic pressure will drive these elements through the cell wall and
into the more dilute solution inside the cells. Conversly, too high a
concentration of nutrients outside the cell walls can actually draw
water out of the plant, since nature wants that balance of solvent and
solute on each side of the cell membrane.
Water Potential is similar to osmotic pressure in that water tends to
move to areas of lower concentrations from areas of higher
concentrations. If you've ever left a wash rag in a wet sink you've
seen it "soak up" the water until it was saturated. This is water
potential moving the water from a high concentration (the wet sink) to a
lower concentration (the dry rag).
This happens because water molecules are both positively and negatively
charged. The positive end of one water molecule (the Oxygen part of
H2O) is attracted to one of the two negative ends of another water
molecule (the Hydrogens..the H2's in H2O). They form an unbroken chain
of molecules from the dryest part of the washrag straight to the
standing pool in the bottom of the sink. And as the first molecule moves
to dryer areas, it pulls the chain along step by step until a stasis is
achieved and every part of the washrag is equally wet. If the air
around the washrag is dry enough, the water will evaporate and move from
the wet rag to the dryer air, again pulling the water molecule chain
along with it until the sink is empty and the rag is totally dry.
This nutrient rich chain of water moves the same way into, through and
out of plants. Plants have tiny openings in their leaves called
STOMATA. Very simply put, a stoma opens and closes through water
pressure in the leaf tissue. When the plant is full, the stomata close.
When its thirsty they open. Water evaporates out of the stomata,
lowering the water potential in the plant and literally pulling the
unbroken chain of water from the soil, thru the semi-permiable cell
walls of the roots and up thru hollow cells called XYLOM TISSUE to the
leaves. The dissolved nutrients in the water move with it into the
plant.
SOIL CHARACTERISTICS
Soil is more than broken down minerals. A good soil is a balance of
"separates" called sand, clay and silt. "Sand" particles run from 2
milimeters down to .02mm; "Silt" partilces run from .02mm down to
.002mm; "Clay" particles run from .002mm down to submicroscopic sizes.
The proportions of these constituants is called the soil's TEXTURE.
Sand particles are the comparatively large units, with a huge volume and
small surface area. They help hold the smaller particles apart, making
spaces for air and water to move in the soil. Too much sand, however,
and the soil can't hold water or nutrients well. The water runs by
gravity off of the small surface area rather than "sticking" to it by
atomic attraction.
Silt and clay are tremendously smaller, with a proportionately larger
surface area. There are about 100 particles of sand in a gram, with a
surface area of about 10 cubic centemeters. There are over 100 TRILLION
particles of clay in the same gram with a surface area of 8 million cm2!
This tremendous surface area is negatively charged and attracts water
and nutrients, holding them in the soil. Too much silt and clay,
however, will form a sticky glop with no spaces between particles for
air to reach plant roots.
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| Message 11 |
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Subject: Re: nitrogen
From: Jon Hays
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:32:22 -0600
When you talk about too much nitrogen, it may not be too much nitrogen but
not enough carbon. You have a carbon nitrogen ratio that you have to
balance. On the nitrogen cycle ( when nitrogen is high) you grow plant
structure. When the carbon is high you set fruit, this is the reason for
CO2 injection.
Best regards
John Hays
At 09:23 AM 09/29/1999 , you wrote:
>Thanks for the tomatoe info. Nitrogen is/must be our culprit. What crops
>can we
>plant that thrive on nitrogen - spinach? kale? arugala? Please let me
>know. What
>about crops such as cucumbers etc? Any thoughts -
>
>Also, what is the best way that you have tried to stake such tomato
>cages. We thought
>of buying just palin old tomatoe cages and anchoring them in the
>medium. Any thoughts
>on this one?
>Mike
John Hays
1903 Pebble Hill Rd.
Carlsbad, NM 88220
1-505-887-0102
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Subject: Re: dumb question
From: dreadlox@cwjamaica.com (michael kent barnett)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 23:05:22 +0100
We have the same problem here in Jamaica... very expensive imports!!
Try 1/4 inch pea gravel, or river washed sand. (respect mining zones and
regulations!!)A friend of mine found a deserted beach with large stony
beach "sand", he uses this in his biotopes, and they work just well.
As someone said before, dirt + aquap = MUD!! Use the gravel for ease of
cleaning and speed. I have also had to compromise...away from expensive
inmport or foamboards...go local, and foolproof... or as a Turkish
engineer once told me... "MIke make it donkey standard!!"
ranchos@sol.racsa.co.cr wrote:
>
> I assume the purpose of the medium (perlite, vermiculite, gravel, etc) is
> basically to hold up the plant while the roots get the nutrient, is there
> any reason why you can't just use dirt to do the same thing, assuming it's
> good, clean, maybe sterilized earth. The dirt could even be a source of
> trace elements missing from conventional nutrient formulas. Where I am
> (Costa Rica) those mediums are either not available or expensive.
>
> Jose
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