Aquaponics Digest - Thu 10/07/99




Message   1: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant

             from wills/nachreiner 

Message   2: grow beds/biofilters

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta

Message   3: Re: grow beds/biofilters

             from "Wendy Nagurny" 

Message   4: Re: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant

             from "Wendy Nagurny" 

Message   5: Algae,yuck

             from Bagelhole1

Message   6: Re: Algae,yuck

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta

Message   7: Re: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant

             from Ronald Polka 

Message   8: RE: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant

             from "Ronald W. Brooks" 

Message   9: Fwd: Aquaculture

             from Sunpeer

Message  10: Re: grow beds/biofilters

             from "Barry Thomas" 

Message  11: Re: Important new advances

             from "Barry Thomas" 

Message  12: Re: Important new advances

             from "Barry Thomas" 

Message  13: Re: Important new advances

             from Debra Jaramillo 

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| Message 1                                                           |

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Subject: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant

From:    wills/nachreiner 

Date:    Thu, 07 Oct 1999 00:44:07 -0500

We at Cedar Grove Cheese have been operating a "living machine" to clean

our wash water.  Several extentions/experiments are being attempted or

planned.  

1.  Adding fish.  If we can finish the regulatory issues about potential

release, we are interested in bluegills, talapia and coi.  We need to

consider feed issues.  Is there a recipe for fish food containing cheese

that would utilize our scraps,  is mold a problem?)  What requirements are

needed for "organic" fish?  (We do make organic cheese. Any surefire ways

to keep exotics from escaping that will satisfy the DNR? 

2.  Plant diversification and economic value.  We have a lot of tropical

plants.  The plants grow like crazy and their root structure provides

several useful properties in the water cleansing.  However, they have

little economic value.  Perhaps with a "soil" equivalent we could harvest

the ginger roots.  Calla lillies bloom too infrequently and the irises have

so far failed to blossom.  We are looking for other alternatives.

Especially plants that will uptake salts and phosphorus. But we want to

maintain a root structure in the water over 1 foot deep.  

3.  We would like to improve the efficiency of oxygenation of the water.

Diffusers in bottoms of tanks don't seem like they are as energy efficient

as they could be. Too big of utility bills.  Ideas? Thanks

Box185 Plain,Wi 53577

(608) 546-2712

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| Message 2                                                           |

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Subject: grow beds/biofilters

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:54:38 -0400

> Whoa, Adriana.  Your bio-filter is where your fish waste is converted to

> plant food.  Why do you want to disconnect it?

Wendy,

Don't the gravel beds in the Sperraneos sytem function as the

bio-filter?  So once you set up growing beds your existing biofilter

will become extraneous?

Adriana

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| Message 3                                                           |

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Subject: Re: grow beds/biofilters

From:    "Wendy Nagurny" 

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:41:12 -0400

>

>

>> Whoa, Adriana.  Your bio-filter is where your fish waste is converted to

>> plant food.  Why do you want to disconnect it?

>

>Wendy,

>

>Don't the gravel beds in the Sperraneos sytem function as the

>bio-filter?  So once you set up growing beds your existing biofilter

>will become extraneous?

>

>Adriana

>

Yes they do.   I would use a gravel trickle or ebb/flow

(preferable)biofilter right from the start as my biofilter.  If you don't

have room/funds for a bank of shallow grow-bed type bio-filters, I would put

in one big deep one at first, then add shallower ones for growbeds later,

but still leaving your initial one in the system.  There is no such thing as

too much filter.  (There can be too many plants for the nutrients.  The

plants won't do well then.) Disrupting the biofilter after your tank is

stable and is holding a  moderate to heavy waste load is asking for trouble

i.e. dead fish.  Even if you plan to run through hydro type tubes, I would

have one big gravel biofilter.  I would avoid commercial biofilters,

especially ones with powered moving parts.

I think starting with a hydroponics system and trying to add aquaculture

later would be difficult.  You will have a nutrient "dead" period until the

nutrients build up in the water and I don't think one can be sure that the

commercial nutrient plant mixes would be safe for the fish since there would

probably be a bit of residue in the hydro system at change over unless you

plan to tear down the hydro portion and clean it first.

Wendy

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| Message 4                                                           |

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Subject: Re: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant

From:    "Wendy Nagurny" 

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:02:59 -0400

>We at Cedar Grove Cheese have been operating a "living machine" to clean

>our wash water.  Several extentions/experiments are being attempted or

>planned.

>1.  Adding fish.  If we can finish the regulatory issues about potential

>release, we are interested in bluegills, talapia and coi.

I would not attempt to raise bluegills, tilapia and Koi in the same set-up.

Bluegills and koi are cold water species.  Tilapia are tropical.  No matter

where you set the temp, someone will be unhappy with you.

We need to

>consider feed issues.  Is there a recipe for fish food containing cheese

>that would utilize our scraps,  is mold a problem?)

Fish like cheese.  They will take it right out of your hands.  Makes a good

fishing bait especially for catfish.  I don't know how well they will thrive

on it.  Never fed much of it to them because it makes the water nasty.   I

wouldn't worry too much about the mold cultures.  Molds are everywhere

anyhow.  Try it on a small scale and include some greens to balance the

diet.  I would include LOTS of filter feeders like clams and mussels because

of the mess.  Crayfish like cheese too.  So do turtles.  I wonder what

cheese-fed fresh water clams taste like.  Sounds like a fun experiment.

What requirements are

>needed for "organic" fish?  (We do make organic cheese.

I think the "jury" is still out on that issue.

Any surefire ways

>to keep exotics from escaping that will satisfy the DNR?

Someone else needs to answer this.

>2.  Plant diversification and economic value.  We have a lot of tropical

>plants.  The plants grow like crazy and their root structure provides

>several useful properties in the water cleansing.  However, they have

>little economic value.  Perhaps with a "soil" equivalent we could harvest

>the ginger roots.  Calla lilies bloom too infrequently and the irises have

>so far failed to blossom.

Iris need a dormant period to bloom.  If they are kept in a greenhouse

environment all year, they won't bloom.  Some varieties need cold dormancy,

some will accept a drought period as their dormancy.  Some will bloom for

both.  I apparently have some that belong to the latter group.  After this

summers drought, some of my iris are blooming again.  Last night we got our

first frost.  It looks funny to see frost on the irises. Also, if they are

planted too deeply they won't bloom.  I believe callas also need a dormant

period to bloom their best.

Have you tried water lilies or lotus?  Some varieties have a good market.

Lotus seed pods also have a market.  Have you tried water sprite or any of

the other plants sold in the aquarium trade.  Most are bog plants anyhow.

Madagascar lace plants bring a good price and have a reasonable demand.

We are looking for other alternatives.

>Especially plants that will uptake salts and phosphorus. But we want to

>maintain a root structure in the water over 1 foot deep.

>3.  We would like to improve the efficiency of oxygenation of the water.

>Diffusers in bottoms of tanks don't seem like they are as energy efficient

>as they could be. Too big of utility bills.  Ideas? Thanks

How about a standard pond fountain.  You know the ones that spray water up

into the air in pretty patterns.  They will provide better aeration than

underwater air diffusers.

Wendy

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| Message 5                                                           |

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Subject: Algae,yuck

From:    Bagelhole1

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:55:25 EDT

Thank you all for you generous advice. One major problem, I see, is the algae 

is taking over. Its sticking to the plastic, blocking the pump, and the holes 

in the 1/2 inch tubing overhead which is supposed to let the fish water come 

down into the plastic pop bottles holding the plants. So, does anyone have 

any idea how to stop the algae?

                                                        Thanks,

                                                        Tom O

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| Message 6                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Algae,yuck

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Thu, 07 Oct 1999 14:07:42 -0400

Tom are your tanks in sun?  Cover them.  The fish don't need the sun and

the algae loves it.   Unfortunately your soda bottles, being translucent

or clear also are little algae factories.  Floating a mesh bag of straw,

barley if you can get it, will work to prevent algae in the future.  If

I were you I would do a 100% changeout of the water in the system,

isolate the growing beds from the fish and run a chlorine mixture

through your pipes to kill the existing algae.  This implies taking out

your seedlings or at least disconnecting all of the piping to get it

cleaned up.  Is your pipe clear or standard PVC?  You also might

consider painting your soda bottles.  Common recommendations are a coat

of balck paint underneath and one of white over the top to block light.

Remember, you are learning TONS from this and it will serve you well in

the future.

Adriana

> Thank you all for you generous advice. One major problem, I see, is the algae

> is taking over. Its sticking to the plastic, blocking the pump, and the holes

> in the 1/2 inch tubing overhead which is supposed to let the fish water come

> down into the plastic pop bottles holding the plants.

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| Message 7                                                           |

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Subject: Re: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant

From:    Ronald Polka 

Date:    Thu, 07 Oct 1999 12:05:52 -0600

At 10:02 AM 10/7/1999 -0400, you wrote:

>>We at Cedar Grove Cheese have been operating a "living machine" to clean

>>our wash water.  Several extentions/experiments are being attempted or

>>planned.

SNIP

>Any surefire ways

>>to keep exotics from escaping that will satisfy the DNR?

To answer this definitively you will need to check out your state

regulations. In New Mexico we addressed this by convincing the  state Fish

and Wildlife Dept that our facility was completely isolated from the local

watershed. It is a closed system where waste water goes to an evaporation

pit. This is easy to do in a desert environment where perennial streams are

the exception. We are located about three miles from the Rio Grande across

desert basin so the chance of accidental release is quite remote. If your

system waste water goes to municipal waste water lines, storm sewer lines,

or a natural body of water there is no way that you can prevent release at

some point. Sooner or later something will escape, especially fry. To give

you an example I have had tilapia fry swim through a subsurface flow

artificial wetland and emerge into the sump at the far end.

>>3.  We would like to improve the efficiency of oxygenation of the water.

>>Diffusers in bottoms of tanks don't seem like they are as energy efficient

>>as they could be. Too big of utility bills.  Ideas? Thanks

>From an electrical use point of view it is more efficient to aerate by

pumping air into water via airstones or airlifts than to pump water into

air with fountains. If water needs to be pumped into the air for operations

than use spray heads designed specifically for aeration or cooling where

you have a conical spray pattern with small droplets at a low pressure drop

to maximize your aeration per kilowatt. 

Have you looked at your 5 day BOD in these tanks? Is there something there

that is eating your oxygen as fast as you can get it into the system? If so

than you may have to address that issue separately.

Ron Polka

Southwest Technology Development Institute

New Mexico State University

Box 30001, Dept 3SOL

Las Cruces, NM  88003

rpolka@nmsu.edu

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| Message 8                                                           |

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Subject: RE: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant

From:    "Ronald W. Brooks" 

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:11:17 -0400

-> -----Original Message-----

-> From: aquaponics

-> [mailto:aquaponics]On Behalf Of wills/nachreiner

-> Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 1:44 AM

-> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com

-> Subject: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant

->

-> 1.  Any surefire ways

-> to keep exotics from escaping that will satisfy the DNR?

Usually a three stage drain , using a gravel sump then flow into a grass

type dry sink.

The best way is to contact the Wisconsin DNR and ask them what they want to

see

-> 2.  Plant diversification and economic value.

How about adding Taro and water chestnuts and maybe a water spinach that

would expand into the Chinese food market.

Papyrus is also a good plant that is in demand by florists

then there is all the pond plants that can be grown and sold to ponders or

pond stores , cardinal flower , arrow leaf , Japanese water iris ,

variegated reed , etc..

Ron

The One Who Walks Two Paths

ICQ 44271371

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| Message 9                                                           |

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Subject: Fwd: Aquaculture

From:    Sunpeer

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:58:13 EDT

FYI ,this is from the list at cornell univ.

In a message dated 10/7/99 12:33:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

cac29@cornell.edu writes:

<< 

 I received the following information from Gordon Mengel at The National 

Council

 for Agricultural Education.  Please pass it on to anyone whom you believe may

 be interested.  Thanks, Carol Conroy

 

 >Subject: 

 >Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:36:23 -0500

 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)

 >

 >To:  Supporters of Secondary Aquaculture Programs (Please relay to secondary

 >teachers)

 >From:  Gordon J. Mengel, Special Projects Director, The Council

 >A (National)AQUACULTURE COMPETITION has been organized for SECONDARY SCHOOL

 >STUDENTS by AQUACULTURE AMERICA 2000 and its sponsors, the US Chapter of the

 >World Aquaculture Society, National Aquaculture Association and the US

 >Aquaculture Suppliers Association. (Announcement received from USDA-CSREES

 >10/05/99) 

 >AQUACULTURE AMERICA 2000 has developed a contest for secondary school

 >(grades 9-12) aquaculture programs to compete for the award for the best

 >project for 1999. 

 >BEST SECONDARY SCHOOL AQUACULTURE PROJECT CONTEST: The selected winner will

 >receive a trip to New Orleans for AQUACULTURE AMERICA 2000 (February 2-5,

 >2000) for the teacher and top student with airfare, hotel and registration

 >provided. Applications due November 1, 1999!! 

 >CONTEST RULES AND APPLICATION can be found at the National Council for

 >Agricultural Education's web site(www.teamaged.org). 

 >Click on Aquaculture Education Logo. 

 >Click on Announcements. 

 

 

 

 

 Carol A. Conroy, Ph.D. 

 Asst. Professor and Coordinator 

 Agricultural, Extension, and Adult Education 

 Cornell University 

 425 Kennedy Hall 

 Ithaca, NY  14853 

 (607) 255-7381, FAX: (607) 255-7905 

 e-mail: cac29@cornell.edu 

  

 Seek to give voice to your intuition! 

 

  >>

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| Message 10                                                          |

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Subject: Re: grow beds/biofilters

From:    "Barry Thomas" 

Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1999 02:56:34 +0100

Hi Wendy,

> Yes they do.   I would use a gravel trickle or ebb/flow

> (preferable)biofilter right from the start as my biofilter.  If you

don't

> have room/funds for a bank of shallow grow-bed type bio-filters, I

would put

> in one big deep one at first, then add shallower ones for growbeds

later,

> but still leaving your initial one in the system.

Do you know (or can you point to info) how the two filter types compare?

With a "big, deep" biofilter aren't the bacteria lower down not only

getting less to eat but sitting in wastes produced by the ones higher

up? Shallower filters with the plant roots in amongst the filter media

and able to remove the wastes (now nutrient) as they're produced seem

worth aiming for even if they do take up more space?

Plants seem to be able to affect their rhyzospheres to a significant

degree, is this helpful or harmful in this situation?

Not arguing  - interested.  :)

Barry

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| Message 11                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Important new advances

From:    "Barry Thomas" 

Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1999 02:19:07 +0100

Hi Jewel,



>> Still to consider is if it would be better to take the

> > raw water from the pond into the standard S&S type growing beds and

let the

> > bacteria do there work there, or hope that his system will be good

enought

> > to feed the plants.

> >

> > Jewel

The idea seems reasonable to me - the fact that none of the experts has

savaged it yet could be a good sign?  :)

But (sorry) although the gravel bed gives somewhere for helpful "things"

to live and seems better than without, can it produce enough to be

worthwhile? I'm not saying it can't but there are a few things that I

would want to know before giving it GH space and starting digging. I

suppose it depends on just how intensive a system you want. Can't really

offer any answers I'm afraid (big surprise!) just more questions - hope

they are of some help in your decision:

What area of the pond is covered by rafts? With the rafts (well, the

plants on them) absorbing oxy as well as reducing the surface area of

your ponds, when does aeration become necessary?

As has been mentioned recently, solids act as a big oxy sink - won't

this make the problem worse?

If transport of wastes/nutrients between each of your "symbionts" (fish,

bacteria, plants etc) is by diffusion only, doesn't this put a fairly

low limit on performance? If you look at systems in terms of simple

creatures, a circulatory system of some form generally makes things

happen more quickly and keeps their components better supplied with

things they need and ensures wastes don't hang around for too long. The

creature/system must use some of its energy to do so but the benefits

seem to outweigh the cost.

Some of the root systems I've seen from hydro grown plants have been

substantial to say the least - what effect (if any) might this have on

your fish (or vice versa)?

So, I suppose it boils down to: How much of an increase in plant/fish

density does this offer over just an unassisted, natural pond? Did the

guy you spoke to give you any idea? Anyone know or care to hazard a

guess?

If you need any more questions, let me know.   ;)

Barry

barrythomas@btinternet.com

(crosswinds temporarily down)

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| Message 12                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Important new advances

From:    "Barry Thomas" 

Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1999 02:59:42 +0100

Hi Debrah,

>   That system is being done and pioneered by Dr. John Todd Living

>Technologies --livingmachines.com

> If none of you have heard about this check it out, Dr. Todd and the

> Speraneos are of the same kind!

I checked out the website but it was somewhat lacking in hard info - not

surprising if they're selling systems/books etc - but it seemed that the

ponds they use are for remediation of wastes produced in other systems?

Does it all still work ok if the fish are actually in the pond?

Barry

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| Message 13                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Important new advances

From:    Debra Jaramillo 

Date:    Thu, 07 Oct 1999 19:13:05 -0700

Barry Thomas wrote:

> Hi Debrah,

>

> >   That system is being done and pioneered by Dr. John Todd Living

> >Technologies --livingmachines.com

> > If none of you have heard about this check it out, Dr. Todd and the

> > Speraneos are of the same kind!

>

> I checked out the website but it was somewhat lacking in hard info - not

> surprising if they're selling systems/books etc - but it seemed that the

> ponds they use are for remediation of wastes produced in other systems?

> Does it all still work ok if the fish are actually in the pond?

>

> Barry

  Yes - seek and you will find- how about asking those that are presently

using the system. how Hard must it Get!! Debrah



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