Aquaponics Digest - Fri 10/08/99
Message 1: Re: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant
from "Sam Levy"
Message 2: Re: grow beds/biofilters
from "Wendy Nagurny"
Message 3: Re: USERS MANUAL!! HOT off the press..
from "Jewel" <1mastiff@amigo.net>
Message 4: Re: Important new advances
from marc
Message 5: Salmon aquaponics?
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 6: Fwd. Re: aquaponics in Indonesia
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 7: Re: Important new advances
from marc
Message 8: Re: Fwd. Re: aquaponics in Indonesia
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 9: Q-ponic Tilapia growth
from "Jewel" <1mastiff@amigo.net>
Message 10: Re: Salmon aquaponics?
from "Jewel" <1mastiff@amigo.net>
Message 11: Visits
from pegnem
Message 12: Aquaponics in Indonesia, was Re: Visits
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 13: Emmett's system
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 14: Re: Fwd. Re: aquaponics in Indonesia
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 15: Re: Salmon aquaponics?
from S & S Aqua Farm
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: adding fish to our botanical treatment plant
From: "Sam Levy"
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 22:12:56 PDT
as far as using cheese for aquafeeds, there's a question of stability &
additional fouling of the water although you might want to look at the NRC's
"nutritional requirements of warmwater fish" to compare protein, lipid &c.
molds can be a problem if they cause the fish to go off their feed or if
they are toxic.
efficient oxygenation wil depend upon configuration, pressures, organic
load. air diffusers hooked up to blowers can be very effective in most
freshwater systems. if the system intensity requires pure oxygen, there are
devices for supersaturating w/o2 under pressure. for low head situations,
zeigler bros used to produce a low head oxygenator that was reasonably
efficient/
sam
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Subject: Re: grow beds/biofilters
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:07:48 -0400
>Hi Wendy,
>
>> Yes they do. I would use a gravel trickle or ebb/flow
>> (preferable)biofilter right from the start as my biofilter. If you
>don't
>> have room/funds for a bank of shallow grow-bed type bio-filters, I
>would put
>> in one big deep one at first, then add shallower ones for growbeds
>later,
>> but still leaving your initial one in the system.
>
>Do you know (or can you point to info) how the two filter types compare?
Ebb and flow filters are more efficient if the ebb and flow is timed right.
When you just trickle water through a medium, it will usually take a
preferred path every time leaving dry spots, so the entire filter is never
utilized. Also the water is only in contact with the bacteria surface
during the time it takes to trickle through. In an ebb/flow type the
entire filter is flooded and held for a little while then drained. The
entire filter is wetted and the bacteria have more time to act on the water.
During the drain cycle, fresh air is pulled through the media allowing
thorough oxygenation of the filter. I don't have exact numbers in front of
me comparing the same filter used as a trickle and an ebb/flow, but if you
think about it, it just makes sense.
>
>With a "big, deep" biofilter aren't the bacteria lower down not only
>getting less to eat but sitting in wastes produced by the ones higher
>up? Shallower filters with the plant roots in amongst the filter media
>and able to remove the wastes (now nutrient) as they're produced seem
>worth aiming for even if they do take up more space?
I recommended a big deep biofilter if one was doing just aquaculture and
then intended to add plants later. One big deep gravel biofilter would take
up less floor space and would be less expensive than a bunch of shallower
growbed type biofilters. If one were starting with fish/plants right from
the start, I would build growbeds from the start.
I would actually prefer a deep trickle filter over a shallow. Remember, one
bug's waste is another's dinner. The bacteria would develop in layers
depending on what nutrients are available. If, by the time the water
reached the bottom portion, the water was bacteria nutrient depleted, there
would just be no bacteria growing there. It would just be reserve space in
case you developed a higher waste load.
>
>Plants seem to be able to affect their rhyzospheres to a significant
>degree, is this helpful or harmful in this situation?
I would think it would depend on how that particular plant effected its
rhizosphere. Some plants actually put out a type of antibiotic. Some put
off chemicals that encourage bacterial activity. I think that is too broad
a question. :-) Perhaps we could search for a plant that sucked up tons of
nitrates, could metabolize ammonia directly (in case of a filter "crash"),
secreted a chemical that increased fish metabolism resulting in massive
growth rates with absolutely yummy melt-in-your-mouth filets, was self
pollinating, and produced fruits that made a great side-dish or sauce for
fish. (Boy, you can sure tell I didn't sleep last night and haven't had
breakfast yet)
Wendy
>
>Not arguing - interested. :)
>
>Barry
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Subject: Re: USERS MANUAL!! HOT off the press..
From: "Jewel" <1mastiff@amigo.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:52:02 -0600
Where can one find the book?
> ancient, but often overlooked book, one that carries the name of the
> reed bed cleaning system my friend and I have set up (similar to Todds
> system) to deal with raw sewage, its called GENESIS!!
>
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Subject: Re: Important new advances
From: marc
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 12:00:33 -0600
>
> Some of the root systems I've seen from hydro grown plants have been
> substantial to say the least - what effect (if any) might this have on
> your fish (or vice versa)?
>
> So, I suppose it boils down to: How much of an increase in plant/fish
> density does this offer over just an unassisted, natural pond? Did the
> guy you spoke to give you any idea? Anyone know or care to hazard a
> guess?
I went through a fun experimentation phase where I established a "natural
self supporting" 32 inch deep 800 gallon pond of goldfish (comets) inspired
by a Colorado State University pamplet. It was outdoors, no artificial heat
or cover, planted with reeds and various oxygenators, no food, chemicals or
pumps, epdm liner in the ground. Started out with 3 baby comets in June, two
fingerling catfish of a common breed I can't remember the name of, a couple
of snails and around a cubic foot box of common aquarium oxygenators via
mailorder.
After two years had around 30 fish. In summer I would remove a 5 gallon
bucket of algae and plants every week or two. I could usually see the
bottom. Three original fish developed faded looking "gold". Babies hatched
and grew into around a dozen medium (2 to 3 inch) with good color and some
babies that stayed small. Catfish stayed around 6 inches and slender but
lively. Several inches of sludge on the bottom during fall cleaning. The
large fish and catfish survived the winter, 2 or 3 mediums died and the
small guys had around 75% die off over the winter. The die-offs seemed to
occur during/after a warm spell. No losses during consistent cold weather. A
quite natural looking little pond and it's attractiveness depended on your
tastes.
Next year with no inputs save the addition of food it went up to 1 to 2
buckets of fair quality aquarium plants mixed with algae per 1 to 2 weeks
with a couple of weeks of 2 to 3 buckets/week. The yield was starting to
taper down and quality decreasing even though the weather was still good.
Fish population went up to around 50, (same three big ones, around 20
mediums grew out of the small ones and the rest were minnow sized smaller
guys). Catfish got fat and were around 10 inches and sluggish. Green water,
stringy algae, couldn't see the bottom. Slowed the feeding way down and did
major water change but did not clean. Catfish died during end of year
cleaning in around a foot of bottom sludge as water drained down, found
ulcers on some fish. Stopped feeding during winter and same die off as no
food pond. Not an attractive pond that year to anyone.
My final experiment was aeration with 2 air stones, 2 gpm fountain from a
submersible pump under a pile of mixed size gravel on the bottom (under
gravel filter theory), water tests, fertilizers, pH adjustment, water
changes, morning and evening food addition, organic trash removal (leaves,
grass, etc.). The population exploded with new little guys. 1 to 2 buckets
of excellent virtually algae free plants per week with some growth periods
greater than that. Water was clear to the bottom but you had to move the
surface plants to see it. Stringy algae was almost non-existent. Lots of
little flowers from water plants. Frogs, birds and snakes and cats appeared.
Lots of bugs, dragonflies, etc. Large fish got larger and went pet shop
quality. Around 50 mediums grew out of the small guys and first batch of
that years babies. The previous mediums went large and I gave/sold 20 to 25
of them away, some to a pet shop. The later hatches stayed small. Added two
50 watt heaters to pond. Around 6 inches sludge during cleanout but gravel
added to sludge height. Fed a little bit during ice melt off/ warm spells.
Little winter die off. Extremely attractive pond, lots of complements. Lots
of work. Commercial interest infected/infested me. On to Aquaponics now.
Marc Nameth
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Subject: Salmon aquaponics?
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:18:43 -0500
There's an ongoing discussion right now on the "RECIRC - Water Recirculation
and Re-use in Aquaculture" list concerning biofilters and design changes for
a salmon smolt production facility using fluidized sand biofilters. While
the discussion is quite interesting and actually indicative of the variety
of activities in the aquaculture field, I was wondering if anyone on this
list had ever produced or experimented with salmon in an aquaponics system.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 6 |
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Subject: Fwd. Re: aquaponics in Indonesia
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:37:17 -0500
Here's some more questions for our friend in Indonesia. I've posted my
responses, but would be happy to forward any other comments (or we could
just copy her on the replies if not too extensive - she's borrowing computer
time).
---------------------------------------------------
>Here's some questions: what are tanks made of??? what are the options?
We use tanks (and grow beds) from Polytank, which are a heavy-duty
polyethylene. If you have access to a manufacturer, this would be my
personal choice, but I know there are alternatives. We also use black tanks
to maximum solar gain through the winter, but you might not find it
necessary in your location.
Others use fiberglass, coated concrete, plastic-lined wooden construction
(or use pond liners), and I'll let the group explain other options.
>who's tried growing lettuce or salad crops? how does it go?
Lettuce and salad crops do well in aquaponics systems. Specific varieties
will perform better in one climate/environment over another. What are some
of the specific conditions where your proposed system(s) will operate?
>AND - where can i visit when i return to the states this november? i'll be
>coming home to gather funding and information and get ready for a longer
>haul in the tropics. Any working systems i can see will be helpful. My
>home range includes Tennessee and Florida, though i can probably travel a
>little.
I'll make a couple of contacts, but perhaps someone in the group will
volunteer their site for your visit.
>Also, if you know of any organizations that like to fund projects like
>this - there's so much good work to do, and I really think there's an
>opportunity to get a foot in the door for sustainability here, before too
>much industry moves in.
>terimah kasih banyak - thanks so much for your help.
>
>sincerely,
>
>coree white
>c/o YPK
>Kotak Pos 125
>Abepura 99351
>Irian Jaya INDONESIA
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Thanks to the group for any help.
Paula Speraneo
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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| Message 7 |
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Subject: Re: Important new advances
From: marc
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:00:08 -0600
The following Colorado State Website has the links to the relevant
agencies you will be involved with if you decide to be a food producer
or use it's water resources.
http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/govmenu.html#state
I suggest you call and talk to the Health, Agriculture and Natural
resources departments about meat processing, weights and measurements,
state licensed meat processing facilities, and water discharges into
state waters.
I also suggest you talk with your local codes people wherever you decide
to live. The counties in the state of Colorado, in spite of media hype,
are very socialist and many will treat you like an irresponsible child.
The State of Colorado Ag Department is very consumer protection oriented
and is not an advocate for the small farmer.
The Colorado Ag department is responsive to BIG AGRI Buisiness, not the
small farmer. This means chemicals, sprays, hormones, big money, big
programs etc. Even though they talk about environment the don't really
mean it. It's buisiness as usual. I have written three emails to the Ag
commisioners office with no response. They just don't care about the
little guy, small farms or sustainable ag.
This leads to what we did. We found out about the backwardness of
Colorado AFTER we bought our farm. Rules that even the Federal
Government and many well known and successful ag states have discarded
years ago are still strongly in effect here and are respected and
enforced by the ag department.
Be careful and investigate in depth what you want to do or you could end
up spending a LOT of money to build a special facility, buy permits and
inspections and hire professional engineers to support your dream.
The whining about the Federal government you may hear is bogus. The
federal government is in support of the small farm and sustainable
agriculture and has put it's money where it's mouth is. The state has
decided to play socialist and you saw what that did to Russia's farming
during the communist era.
I suggest you get in contact with your represenaives and push to get you
way when you run into a roadblock from your regulators.
Mar
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Subject: Re: Fwd. Re: aquaponics in Indonesia
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 17:10:08 -0400
Paula,
She's welcome to see me in Sarasota if she wants to see a fishless
system. Emmett in Tampa and Jay in Pensacola should be operational soon
too if she wants to make a long circuit. If she hasn't been to ECHO in
Ft. Myers that would be a good idea too. They don't do aquaponics or
hydroponics but boy do they know their tropical agriculture!
Adriana
> >AND - where can i visit when i return to the states this november? i'll be
> >coming home to gather funding and information and get ready for a longer
> >haul in the tropics. Any working systems i can see will be helpful. My
> >home range includes Tennessee and Florida, though i can probably travel a
> >little.
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Subject: Q-ponic Tilapia growth
From: "Jewel" <1mastiff@amigo.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:46:07 -0600
Here's a snip from an email I got today regarding the Q ponics effect on =
Tilapia. I could probably find out more if anyone is really interested.
"There is an Asian company, I don't know the name, but they are raising =
Tilapia in charged reservoirs. Mr. Salo says that the fish have a more =
voracious appetite, therefore grow faster."
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Subject: Re: Salmon aquaponics?
From: "Jewel" <1mastiff@amigo.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:53:11 -0600
You might want to talk to that guy I mentioned who is a second generation
aquaculturist. He said most trout, definitely the "rainbow"" and "brown",
are really salmon, not a true trout. He is doing the natural pond
environment with a foot of gravel on the bottom in which he pulls the water
through that for oxygenation and bacteria action. I think he's done
floaters directly on the ponds.
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Subject: Visits
From: pegnem
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 19:56:33 -0400
Paula, Adriana, ....yes. Whoever we're talking about is welcome to visit.
The building, at last, is finished. I'm working on the plumbing now. The
electrician was expected to show up today at 9:30 but no-showed. It looks
like I'll be doing the wiring under his direction and he'll do the final
hook-up (bids for the job ranged from $1500 to $3000). As soon as the
electricity is in we can put the plastic on. It shouldn't be too much longer.
I'm vague about whom we're talking because I've lost some messages this
last week due to a major computer failure. Last Saturday the fan motor and
video card went. Monday the hard drive crashed. Am I having fun or what?
.....Em
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Subject: Aquaponics in Indonesia, was Re: Visits
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 19:08:03 -0500
At 07:56 PM 10/08/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>Paula, Adriana, ....yes. Whoever we're talking about is welcome to visit.
>
>I'm vague about whom we're talking because I've lost some messages this
>last week due to a major computer failure. Last Saturday the fan motor and
>video card went. Monday the hard drive crashed. Am I having fun or what?
Em - the visitor would be Coree White. Here's the jist of her first message:
>
>Now i'm in irian jaya, indonesia (the west half of the island of new
guinea), contemplating an aquaponic project for small-scale agriculture
demonstration and education, in tandem with a business management course for
natives here.
>
>i'm looking for more basic information. , and there will be so many more
questions, too. whatever i make here with be custom fit to the lay of the
land (we're three degrees south of the equator here). i'm trying to use the
absolute minimum of exotic materials. i may not even use tilapia. has
anything else been tried?
-------------------------------------------------
I'll forward your contact info to her. Thanks
Paula
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Subject: Emmett's system
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 19:09:42 -0500
At 07:56 PM 10/08/1999 -0400, Em wrote:
>The building, at last, is finished. I'm working on the plumbing now. The
>electrician was expected to show up today at 9:30 but no-showed. It looks
>like I'll be doing the wiring under his direction and he'll do the final
>hook-up (bids for the job ranged from $1500 to $3000). As soon as the
>electricity is in we can put the plastic on. It shouldn't be too much longer.
Great news Em!! Glad to see all your efforts finally coming together.
Paula
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Subject: Re: Fwd. Re: aquaponics in Indonesia
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 19:12:37 -0500
At 05:10 PM 10/08/1999 -0400, Adriana wrote:
>Paula,
>
>She's welcome to see me in Sarasota if she wants to see a fishless
>system. Emmett in Tampa and Jay in Pensacola should be operational soon
>too if she wants to make a long circuit. If she hasn't been to ECHO in
>Ft. Myers that would be a good idea too. They don't do aquaponics or
>hydroponics but boy do they know their tropical agriculture!
>
Thanks, I'll pass the word along. I hope to see the ECHO operation someday
myself.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: Salmon aquaponics?
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 19:17:24 -0500
At 05:53 PM 10/08/1999 -0600, Jewel wrote:
>You might want to talk to that guy I mentioned who is a second generation
>aquaculturist. He said most trout, definitely the "rainbow"" and "brown",
>are really salmon, not a true trout. He is doing the natural pond
>environment with a foot of gravel on the bottom in which he pulls the water
>through that for oxygenation and bacteria action. I think he's done
>floaters directly on the ponds.
Do you have any contact information? I don't see where you gave us his name.
Paula
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