Aquaponics Digest - Mon 11/08/99
Message 1: Re: Big thinkers, help small guys start.
from Marc & Marcy
Message 2: Processing Licenses
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 3: Re: Processing Licenses
from Marc & Marcy
Message 4: Re: OT paulowinia..Re: Nerdie Newbie, Wanna-be's, Co-Op Help
from mmiller@pcsia.com
Message 5: Re: OT paulowinia..Re: Nerdie Newbie, Wanna-be's, Co-Op Help
from William Evans
Message 6: Short Humor
from Marc & Marcy
Message 7: Re: tomatoes! & fish
from Gordon Watkins
Message 8: Re: Nerdie Newbie, Wanna-be's, Co-Op Help
from Gordon Watkins
Message 9: Newbie Help partially answered
from Bill
Message 10: Re: Magnetic Fields
from Marc & Marcy
Message 11: Neem
from Peggy & Emmett
Message 12: Re: tomatoes! & fish
from "TGTX"
Message 13: Re: Processing Licenses
from wills/nachreiner
Message 14: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Sun 11/07/99
from DAVEINBHAM
Message 15: Re: tomatoes! & fish
from steve spring
Message 16: Re: tomatoes! & fish
from mmiller@pcsia.com
Message 17: Re: tomatoes! & fish
from Marc & Marcy
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: Re: Big thinkers, help small guys start.
From: Marc & Marcy
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 23:01:24 -0700
..snip..
My soil test kit ($15 for ten tests of P,K,N & pH)
> should work, as you make a water-solution from the soil for the test anyway!
> Rapitest, Inc. Product, same name, #1601.
> Distrib by Luster Leaf Products
> POB 1067, Chrystal Lake, Il 60039-1067
> It's a common product around here.
> As Jonny 5 said, "INNNNPUT! MORE INNNPUT!" :>)
> Sincerely, Bill OOWON@Netscape.net
>
What are you trying to sell, er, oops, do?
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Subject: Processing Licenses
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 01:12:54 -0500
Hi Marc,
Thanks for the report. Can you expand more on the processing license
issue? Does this deal with control and definition of processing as it
relates to things like sprouts and salad mix? Did they address the
issue of labelling a product as "washed" relative to specific standards
and oversight?
> Lots of useful stuff for small farmers. An
> increase in conversation about processing licenses from USDA
> and State agencies was prevalent.
Adriana
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Subject: Re: Processing Licenses
From: Marc & Marcy
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 23:37:58 -0700
Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:
>
> Hi Marc,
>
> Thanks for the report. Can you expand more on the processing license
> issue?
One exhibitor conversed how there was no government
"organic" inspector for them so they actually paid a non
government group to perform the certification (organic) and
they use that organizations stamp. This idea really is
exciting since the volunteer inspection/inspector idea is
nothing new to the feds. For example the FCC has turned over
amateur and some professional license testing to amateurs
radio licensee's as well as some enforcement and
investigation proceedings.
This takes my imagination on groups or associations
inspecting their own and having the feds or states accepting
the results!!
In areas that already have state rules it could be a bear to
implement but in areas where the state has not implemented
control, possibly only counties, cities or farmers markets
an association inspection program could prove attractive to
cash strapped governments. Currently Missouri is having
urban sprawl with the associated increase in government
regulation. In MO it is still at the city and county level,
the state still supports various federal exemptions for
small farmer/producers. The thing is when enough local
governments get the approx. same regulations going then the
state will be pressured to adopt the similar regs much like
the federal process due to a certain percentage of states
already passing the thing. This the state personnel were
making hints about.
> Does this deal with control and definition of processing as it
> relates to things like sprouts and salad mix?
No, I heard no mention of these concepts. I know a
greenhouse (dirt floor growing beds) grower I visited
earlier this year spoke of his processing prior to
restaurant delivery in Kansas City and he definitely washed
so as to be city "approved" but he also had to have a
refrigerated truck as "they" would check temperature. He
also had to bag and box the produce. He was delivering salad
fixings such as lettuce, radish, etc.
> Did they address the
> issue of labelling a product as "washed" relative to specific standards
> and oversight?
No. I didn't know enough to ask.
The main thrust of the processing conversations was the
general attitude the feds had. It seems they were perceived
as asking a lot of "what if this happens? How will you
handle it?" stuff. Specific questions were not addressed in
the conversations I attended. I will keep these points in
mind for the next seminar.
Marc
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Subject: Re: OT paulowinia..Re: Nerdie Newbie, Wanna-be's, Co-Op Help
From: mmiller@pcsia.com
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 06:25:11 -0600
It was mentioned on SANET a while back that this species can be invasive to
natural habitats in warmer parts of the country. Don't need another kudzu
turned loose in those environments. Mike Miller
At 19:47 07-11-99 -0800, you wrote:
>William Evans wrote:
>>
>> dsensity of balsawood, deeply taprooted, fodder(big leaves), lightweight
>> hardwood, finishes like mahogany,no dimensional changes w/ changes in
>> humidity, easy to mill, grows to 70-80 feet in 8 years(16 inch caliper),
>> grows repeatedly from the stump, strong, can grow 20 feet first year,
>> etc.
>> bille
>
>I challenge anyone to disprove the above- its all true and documented
>
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Subject: Re: OT paulowinia..Re: Nerdie Newbie, Wanna-be's, Co-Op Help
From: William Evans
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 04:51:53 -0800
mmiller@pcsia.com wrote:
>
> It was mentioned on SANET a while back that this species can be invasive to
> natural habitats in warmer parts of the country. Don't need another kudzu
> turned loose in those environments. Mike Miller
>
So dont start your plantation wetland in someones natural habitat
start it in/near a sewage lagoon
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Subject: Short Humor
From: Marc & Marcy
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 12:18:04 -0700
Just so you know I have not lost my sense of humor...
Two robins were sitting in a tree. "I'm really hungry," said
the first
one.
"Me, too" said the second. "let's fly down and find some
lunch."
They flew to the ground and found a nice plot of plowed
ground full of
worms. They ate, and ate and ate and ate 'til they could eat
no more.
"I'm so full I don't think I can fly back up to the tree",
said the first
one.
"Me either. Let's just lie here and bask in the warm sun",
said the
second."
O.K" said the first. They plopped down, basking in the sun.
No sooner had they fallen asleep, a big fat tom cat snuck up
and
gobbled them all up. As he sat washing his face after his
meal, he
thought,
"I love baskin' robins." ~~~Groan~~~
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Subject: Re: tomatoes! & fish
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:50:15 -0600
Bill wrote:
> Indians used to bury a fish
> under EACH corn seed. tomatoes don't need that much protein,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but tomatoes don't really need protein at all -they
need nitrogen
which is a by-product of protein degradation. Proteins, such as that found
in bone meal, blood
meal, soybean meal, etc, serves as a food for microorganisms which convert
it into ammonia,
nitrite, nitrate, etc.
>
> Bonemeal is a SLOW release fertilizer, which is (normally) meant to be dug in
> with the soil, before planting, due to poor migration.
Actually, bone meal is relatively fast-acting compared to other organic
forms of P, such as
colloidal or rock phosphate, or Ca such as limestone. This is why it is more
effective at
controlling blossom end rot on tomatoes, a short season crop. Of course if
one is comparing it
to synthetic forms such as super phosphate, then yes, it is slow release.
> Sterilize the meal if you wish... 140-150 in oven, spread thinly,
> measure center temp to be sure, 30 min.
I guess you're referring to the aforementioned connection with diseases?
Most bone meal is
steamed at higher temps than you mention but prions, the culprits in mad cow
disease and CJD,
are not afected by temp. In fact, they have found no means of destroying
prions, including
radiation. This, and its long incubation period, is why it is of such concern.
Gordon Watkins
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Subject: Re: Nerdie Newbie, Wanna-be's, Co-Op Help
From: Gordon Watkins
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 14:57:38 -0600
For a good overview of the system I'm using, get a copy of the doctoral
dissertation,
"Performance of an Integrated Aquaculture-Olericulture System as Influenced
by Component
Ratio", by Mark Richard McMurtry, 1990, order #9023395 available from UMI
Dissertation
Services 1-800-521-0600. It describes system design and operation and
presents the results of
several experiments on fish:plant ratios, growth:feed:temp rates, etc. Lots
of hard data.
Gordon Watkins
Bill wrote:
> To whit:
> I'd like to recieve info on your systems. I THINK, this would be of general
> interest... but am most willing to recieve the info to my e-mail, direct.
>
> I'd like to know everything, and in a quantifiable way as reasonable, or as
> you have time or inclination. I.e,:
> Tank size, dimentions of planters, 'soil' type, plant type, fish type (# size,
> anything you can tell me), how much they eat, (5 lbs in 3 weeks?, etc) pump
> size or rate, timers, timing cycles.
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Subject: Newbie Help partially answered
From: Bill
Date: 8 Nov 99 17:56:03 PST
>From: Marc & Marcy Add To Address Book Add To Jun=
k
Mail Blocker List =
>> My soil test kit ($15 for ten tests of P,K,N & pH)
>>As Jonny 5 said, "INNNNPUT! MORE INNNPUT!" :>) =
> What are you trying to sell, er, oops, do?
ANS.: 'Tanks," for asking... Sell? 1) Eco 2) Do your own thing 3) =
'Victory Gardens 4) Helping your neighjbor thru' information pass-a-;on=
g 5)
Doing some of the above by (loosely) organized methodology, including
plotting and 'trending' results, to be compiled & regurgitated to the gro=
up
2nd ANS.: Discover 'basic' #'s, In/Out, for hydroponics, of which hydrop=
onics
is a subsystem.
> Indians used to bury a fish
> under EACH corn seed. tomatoes don't need that much protein,
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but tomatoes don't really need protein at all=
=2E..
(Does corn...?)An example of how hungry SOME plants can be, (which includ=
es
tomatoes to a degree, tho' not for protein) and a joke about what fish ar=
e
for... too oblique, I guess.
G., You 'give' so well, it bore repeating. Not many know the chemistry b=
ehind
nitrites, nitrates, etc.
> > Bonemeal is a SLOW release fertilizer, which is (normally) meant to =
be
dug in
> > with the soil, before planting, due to poor migration.
NOTE: I read this in a tomato/vegetable book.
> Of course if one is comparing it to synthetic forms such as super phosp=
hate,
then yes, it is slow release.
G. So many use those (outside of aquaponics, at least,) I can forget tha=
t in
THIS group, THIS section you are more knowledgeable about. A guy asked a=
bout
using it w/fish, showing the need to address it, more than what was done.=
> > Sterilize the meal if you wish... 140-150
>but prions, the culprits in mad cow disease and CJD, are not afected by=
temp. In fact, they have found no means of destroying prions, including
radiation. This, and its long incubation period, is why it is of such
concern.
!!! I missed this somehow! Burn before bury???Thanks! Hat's off to: Gord=
on
Watkins
>> For a good overview of the system I'm using, get a copy of... Gordon
Watkins
'Tanks' agin'!
Bill OOWON (Noted, because of the per'funderance of Billy's, Billo's Wm.'=
s,
etc)
____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.
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Subject: Re: Magnetic Fields
From: Marc & Marcy
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 20:08:48 -0700
..snip..
> water heaters are significantly altered? So that we all ought to all go out
> and buy a GMX magnetic water conditioner?
>
..snip..
Hi Ted,
At the small farms conference there was one softener magnet
salesman, a non-boothed wandering water treatment couple
trying to sell a water aeration scheme with a one page
single sided black and white flyer, an ozone/electrostatic
air cleaner booth and one obnoxious know-it-all. (No, I am
not referring to meself, laddie.)
Last year there were around twice that number and several
floor "cheaters" circumventing the vendors fee. Much more
professional this year.
No debates about magnets or ozone. As a matter of fact the
ozone air purification folks had test results from a lab
about their machine and were talking epa, ppm, mg/l and
electrostatic cleaning. The carbon impregnated kitchen hood
style pre-filter from last year was no longer claimed to
"clean harmful chemicals" out of the air, just big chunks. I
was so impressed with their good science I almost bought
one. Those guys have learned, changed and are going to make
it.
Only one debate about water. The notion that distilled or
pure water is "lifeless" and "removes" important minerals
from the body vs pure water isn't bad for you. Lasted 30
seconds with a 3 count both shoulder pin.
Marc
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Subject: Neem
From: Peggy & Emmett
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 18:07:33 -0500
Adriana:
Neem-Away sold by Gardens Alive is .09% Azadirachtin. The concentrations
of other Neem products would allow you to compare apples to apples. Em
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Subject: Re: tomatoes! & fish
From: "TGTX"
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:28:29 -0600
> I guess you're referring to the aforementioned connection with diseases?
Most bone meal is
> steamed at higher temps than you mention but prions, the culprits in mad
cow disease and CJD,
> are not afected by temp. In fact, they have found no means of destroying
prions, including
> radiation. This, and its long incubation period, is why it is of such
concern.
>
> Gordon Watkins
Gordon, I agree with most of what you just posted up to the point of the
claim...excuse me...where you said.... that the "concern" about bone meal
relates to indestructible prions, in which case I just have some questions
about these prions...which are proteins or at least peptides or
polypeptides. So I must say "Whoa there, and hold.... whatever it is you
are holding onto at the moment."
As I understand it, Spongiform Encephelitis is "caused" by these prions,
which are not living cells.... they are not pathogens in the traditional
sense...and they are not viruses. They are merely proteins (or peptides, or
polypeptides, depending on where you draw the line for those categories)
which can incorporate into the brain tissue- specifically the
neurons...brain cells.... of animals that have injested them (their stomach
acid and proteolytic enzymes in their gut do not phase these prions it is
claimed...or said...) and somehow these prions act to change the protein
synthesis of those neural cells from that point in time forward until the
brains of these animals are about as useful to them as having a mass of
tapioca pudding between their ear lobes.
What I do not understand, based on my very limited knowledge of protein
chemistry, is how any protein can be ABSOLUTELY UNAFFECTED and TOTALLY
IMPERVIOUS to being denatured by heat at some critical temperature. When
you claim...sorry...when you say...that prions are not affected by
temperature...I wonder if you mean any reasonable heat treatment temperature
whatsoever.. in which case, I find that extremely hard to understand.
The tertiary structures of proteins especially are very sensitive to heat,
and it is that very tertiary structure (the 3D twisting and coiling of the
protein chain into a particular shape, which is dependent upon comparatively
weak hydrogen bonding ) that renders it's specific designed function within
the cell...like a key for a lock. We know that the albumin in the hard
boiled egg changes its tertiary structure when it is boiled, resulting in an
increase of compaction, density and solidification of the protein, and the
transparency is reduced to that appealing white color in my eggs in the
frying pan...Sunny Side Up!
I would agree that some simple peptides or polypeptides that do not possess
that extra tertiary structure to begin with might not be "denatured" of
their tertiary structures or any other structural aspect at low
temperatures, but surely we must expect that at some temperature, something
in any given protein, peptide or polypeptide molecule must break, twist,
cleave, snap, or become oxidized beyond recognition from the original shape
or chemistry. That just makes sense to me, but maybe I am so infested with
prions that my neurons are coalescing into the last stages of dementia
here....What was that stuff that just dribbled out of my ear? Looks like
tapioca!
I guess we are not really disagreeing but talking about differences in
degrees...literally...of sensible heat. When do these "prions" no longer
become biochemically hazardous?...(If in fact they are the culprit...which I
am somewhat skeptical about, but willing to learn more about the evidence)
Along the lines of honest skeptism....How do these simple, supposedly
indestructible prions totally take over the protein synthesis machinery of
neurons? How do they survive in tact after composting microorganims, heat
treatments, stomach acid, and proteolytic digestive enzymes attack them? I
suspect the animal rights lobby would argue that there is no safe
temperature to treat prions....nothing in nature can destroy them......so
that would be just one more reason not to consume meat of any kind......just
as many environmentalists on the extreme end of the spectrum would argue
that there is no safe concentration of compound XYZ...so that would be just
one more reason never to produce compound XYZ under any circumstances
whatsoever, no matter what the benefits to humanity........but I cannot face
the truth, knowing what we know about nature, and be a cheerleader for those
kinds of claims all at the same time.
Tedzo
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Subject: Re: Processing Licenses
From: wills/nachreiner
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 21:26:29 -0600
At 11:37 PM 11/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:
>>
>> Hi Marc,
>>
>> Thanks for the report. Can you expand more on the processing license
>> issue?
>One exhibitor conversed how there was no government
>"organic" inspector for them so they actually paid a non
>government group to perform the certification (organic) and
>they use that organizations stamp. This idea really is
>exciting since the volunteer inspection/inspector idea is
>nothing new to the feds. For example the FCC has turned over
>amateur and some professional license testing to amateurs
>radio licensee's as well as some enforcement and
>investigation proceedings.
>
>This takes my imagination on groups or associations
>inspecting their own and having the feds or states accepting
>the results!!
>
>
A brief observation on the wonderful world of independent agencies. Our
experience with organic certifications has been very frustrating due to
lack of agreement on standards (minor), and politics and self
interest(major). We attempted and paid 250 smackers for one agency to
issue a document review recognizing the certification of another agency so
that we could combine the milk from two farms for organic processing of
cheese. After 11 months, we received a letter that the dociment review had
been rejected because of insuffiecient information. period. Two phone
calls were needed to find out what was missing. Still no progress. Each
agency wants all the bucks. Cross recognition is not automatic. This is
what leads to calls for uniform national standards.
Box185 Plain,Wi 53577
(608) 546-2712
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Sun 11/07/99
From: DAVEINBHAM
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:44:48 EST
In a message dated 11/07/1999 11:54:14 PM Central Standard Time,
aquaponics-digest-request@townsqr.com writes:
<< How do I compare the $39.00 / qt from Dynagrow to the
$27/qt stuff from Aloha farms. Is there anything on the Dynagro label
which specifies % of Neem oil and whether it has been concentrated?
> Adriana, >>
>>*************************************************************************
******
Adriana,
All it says on the label is "Active ingredients Neem Oil 100% ". That,
presumably, means nothing in the bottle except oil just as it came from the
little Neems.
By the way, there appears to be one hell of a markup on Dyna-Gro products. I
asked for and got a VERY hefty discount from the $39.50 suggested retail
price. I am not sure it would be cricket to post the prices I actually pay
for Dyna-Gro here on the list. If you want to know, email me privately and I
will tell you.
Dave
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Subject: Re: tomatoes! & fish
From: steve spring
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 22:03:55 -0800
--------------531E36E0B48CB4ABA8919BB1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
WOW!!!
I have a pretty good education. I'm pretty good with chemistry, biology,
flow-dynamics, etc., & I was able to follow what you guys were saying, but I had
to really think about it.
I, now, have both of you guys mentally "bookmarked". If I ever disagree with
either one of you, I will be sure to have my homework done.
I would like to ask a rather "mundane" question. Please follow the K.I.S.S.
(Keep It Simple Stupid.) format.
I am breeding and raising Tilapia. I will have my 1600 gal system set up within
a few days. I want to raise "summertime" tomatoes in the "wintertime" in
Wisconsin. I printed the plans for a 11-plant system from "Ron" (one of our
associates) that appears to be quite synergistic with the Tilapia system. I have
been told, however, that I will probably run into a P & K deficiency...in
dealing with the tomatoes. Do either of you have any suggestions as to how I can
overcome this deficiency w/o hurting the Tilapia?
Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks a lot.....(Bob, I really enjoy your response to articles that are
posted.)
You may respond via "aquaponics" or you may email me directly @:
careplus@execpc.com
Yours...........Steve
TGTX wrote:
> > I guess you're referring to the aforementioned connection with diseases?
> Most bone meal is
> > steamed at higher temps than you mention but prions, the culprits in mad
> cow disease and CJD,
> > are not afected by temp. In fact, they have found no means of destroying
> prions, including
> > radiation. This, and its long incubation period, is why it is of such
> concern.
> >
> > Gordon Watkins
>
> Gordon, I agree with most of what you just posted up to the point of the
> claim...excuse me...where you said.... that the "concern" about bone meal
> relates to indestructible prions, in which case I just have some questions
> about these prions...which are proteins or at least peptides or
> polypeptides. So I must say "Whoa there, and hold.... whatever it is you
> are holding onto at the moment."
>
> As I understand it, Spongiform Encephelitis is "caused" by these prions,
> which are not living cells.... they are not pathogens in the traditional
> sense...and they are not viruses. They are merely proteins (or peptides, or
> polypeptides, depending on where you draw the line for those categories)
> which can incorporate into the brain tissue- specifically the
> neurons...brain cells.... of animals that have injested them (their stomach
> acid and proteolytic enzymes in their gut do not phase these prions it is
> claimed...or said...) and somehow these prions act to change the protein
> synthesis of those neural cells from that point in time forward until the
> brains of these animals are about as useful to them as having a mass of
> tapioca pudding between their ear lobes.
>
> What I do not understand, based on my very limited knowledge of protein
> chemistry, is how any protein can be ABSOLUTELY UNAFFECTED and TOTALLY
> IMPERVIOUS to being denatured by heat at some critical temperature. When
> you claim...sorry...when you say...that prions are not affected by
> temperature...I wonder if you mean any reasonable heat treatment temperature
> whatsoever.. in which case, I find that extremely hard to understand.
>
> The tertiary structures of proteins especially are very sensitive to heat,
> and it is that very tertiary structure (the 3D twisting and coiling of the
> protein chain into a particular shape, which is dependent upon comparatively
> weak hydrogen bonding ) that renders it's specific designed function within
> the cell...like a key for a lock. We know that the albumin in the hard
> boiled egg changes its tertiary structure when it is boiled, resulting in an
> increase of compaction, density and solidification of the protein, and the
> transparency is reduced to that appealing white color in my eggs in the
> frying pan...Sunny Side Up!
>
> I would agree that some simple peptides or polypeptides that do not possess
> that extra tertiary structure to begin with might not be "denatured" of
> their tertiary structures or any other structural aspect at low
> temperatures, but surely we must expect that at some temperature, something
> in any given protein, peptide or polypeptide molecule must break, twist,
> cleave, snap, or become oxidized beyond recognition from the original shape
> or chemistry. That just makes sense to me, but maybe I am so infested with
> prions that my neurons are coalescing into the last stages of dementia
> here....What was that stuff that just dribbled out of my ear? Looks like
> tapioca!
>
> I guess we are not really disagreeing but talking about differences in
> degrees...literally...of sensible heat. When do these "prions" no longer
> become biochemically hazardous?...(If in fact they are the culprit...which I
> am somewhat skeptical about, but willing to learn more about the evidence)
> Along the lines of honest skeptism....How do these simple, supposedly
> indestructible prions totally take over the protein synthesis machinery of
> neurons? How do they survive in tact after composting microorganims, heat
> treatments, stomach acid, and proteolytic digestive enzymes attack them? I
> suspect the animal rights lobby would argue that there is no safe
> temperature to treat prions....nothing in nature can destroy them......so
> that would be just one more reason not to consume meat of any kind......just
> as many environmentalists on the extreme end of the spectrum would argue
> that there is no safe concentration of compound XYZ...so that would be just
> one more reason never to produce compound XYZ under any circumstances
> whatsoever, no matter what the benefits to humanity........but I cannot face
> the truth, knowing what we know about nature, and be a cheerleader for those
> kinds of claims all at the same time.
>
> Tedzo
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Subject: Re: tomatoes! & fish
From: mmiller@pcsia.com
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 22:07:23 -0600
Ted, this is a really strange one with a lot yet to be learned. Nova had a
good program some time back and the transcript can be addressed at
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/madcow/. What is known about this agent does
indeed seem to go against our past knowledge. Mike Miller
At 19:28 08-11-99 -0600, you wrote:
>> I guess you're referring to the aforementioned connection with diseases?
>Most bone meal is
>> steamed at higher temps than you mention but prions, the culprits in mad
>cow disease and CJD,
>> are not afected by temp. In fact, they have found no means of destroying
>prions, including
>> radiation. This, and its long incubation period, is why it is of such
>concern.
>>
>> Gordon Watkins
>
>Gordon, I agree with most of what you just posted up to the point of the
>claim...excuse me...where you said.... that the "concern" about bone meal
>relates to indestructible prions, in which case I just have some questions
>about these prions...which are proteins or at least peptides or
>polypeptides. So I must say "Whoa there, and hold.... whatever it is you
>are holding onto at the moment."
>
>As I understand it, Spongiform Encephelitis is "caused" by these prions,
>which are not living cells.... they are not pathogens in the traditional
>sense...and they are not viruses. They are merely proteins (or peptides, or
>polypeptides, depending on where you draw the line for those categories)
>which can incorporate into the brain tissue- specifically the
>neurons...brain cells.... of animals that have injested them (their stomach
>acid and proteolytic enzymes in their gut do not phase these prions it is
>claimed...or said...) and somehow these prions act to change the protein
>synthesis of those neural cells from that point in time forward until the
>brains of these animals are about as useful to them as having a mass of
>tapioca pudding between their ear lobes.
>
>What I do not understand, based on my very limited knowledge of protein
>chemistry, is how any protein can be ABSOLUTELY UNAFFECTED and TOTALLY
>IMPERVIOUS to being denatured by heat at some critical temperature. When
>you claim...sorry...when you say...that prions are not affected by
>temperature...I wonder if you mean any reasonable heat treatment temperature
>whatsoever.. in which case, I find that extremely hard to understand.
>
>The tertiary structures of proteins especially are very sensitive to heat,
>and it is that very tertiary structure (the 3D twisting and coiling of the
>protein chain into a particular shape, which is dependent upon comparatively
>weak hydrogen bonding ) that renders it's specific designed function within
>the cell...like a key for a lock. We know that the albumin in the hard
>boiled egg changes its tertiary structure when it is boiled, resulting in an
>increase of compaction, density and solidification of the protein, and the
>transparency is reduced to that appealing white color in my eggs in the
>frying pan...Sunny Side Up!
>
>I would agree that some simple peptides or polypeptides that do not possess
>that extra tertiary structure to begin with might not be "denatured" of
>their tertiary structures or any other structural aspect at low
>temperatures, but surely we must expect that at some temperature, something
>in any given protein, peptide or polypeptide molecule must break, twist,
>cleave, snap, or become oxidized beyond recognition from the original shape
>or chemistry. That just makes sense to me, but maybe I am so infested with
>prions that my neurons are coalescing into the last stages of dementia
>here....What was that stuff that just dribbled out of my ear? Looks like
>tapioca!
>
>I guess we are not really disagreeing but talking about differences in
>degrees...literally...of sensible heat. When do these "prions" no longer
>become biochemically hazardous?...(If in fact they are the culprit...which I
>am somewhat skeptical about, but willing to learn more about the evidence)
>Along the lines of honest skeptism....How do these simple, supposedly
>indestructible prions totally take over the protein synthesis machinery of
>neurons? How do they survive in tact after composting microorganims, heat
>treatments, stomach acid, and proteolytic digestive enzymes attack them? I
>suspect the animal rights lobby would argue that there is no safe
>temperature to treat prions....nothing in nature can destroy them......so
>that would be just one more reason not to consume meat of any kind......just
>as many environmentalists on the extreme end of the spectrum would argue
>that there is no safe concentration of compound XYZ...so that would be just
>one more reason never to produce compound XYZ under any circumstances
>whatsoever, no matter what the benefits to humanity........but I cannot face
>the truth, knowing what we know about nature, and be a cheerleader for those
>kinds of claims all at the same time.
>
>Tedzo
>
>
>
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| Message 17 |
'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------'
Subject: Re: tomatoes! & fish
From: Marc & Marcy
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 22:30:00 -0700
..snip..
>
> What I do not understand, based on my very limited knowledge of protein
> chemistry, is how any protein can be ABSOLUTELY UNAFFECTED and TOTALLY
> IMPERVIOUS to being denatured by heat at some critical temperature. When
> you claim...sorry...when you say...that prions are not affected by
> temperature...I wonder if you mean any reasonable heat treatment temperature
> whatsoever.. in which case, I find that extremely hard to understand.
>
..snip..
I visited a couple of web sites and the sterilization
procedures are pretty drastic. They mumbled the following
on http://medhlp.netusa.net/glossary/new/gls_2561.htm
"Standard disinfectants such as formalin, heat, exposure to
ultraviolet light or x-rays is ineffective to inactivate the
virus. Autoclaving to at least 132 degrees C. or immersion
in 4% sodium hydroxide or 10% sodium hypochlorite solution
for 1 hour is recommended for sterilization."
From: http://w3.aces.uiuc.edu/AnSci/BSE/prions.htm
The PrPsc protein is very resistant to endogenous protease
that would normally
destroy the protein. Because the PrPsc can't be broken down,
it builds up, aggregates, then precipitates forming plaques
and causing spongiform damage.
For the same reason that cells can not destroy PrPsc ,
prions are very heat resistant. While some loss of
infectivity occurs at temperatures above 100°C, 30 to 60
minutes at more than 130°C is needed for inactivation.
Prions remain infective after: sterilizing levels of
radiation, formalin, extremes of pH, non-polar organic
solvents, burying for years, passing through 0.1 µm filters
(2.2 µm filters remove bacteria).
Prions infectivity is destroyed by: 1M NaOH @ 55°C ,
chlorine bleach @ 20,000 ppm (household bleach is 50,000
ppm) hypochlorite.
Dis be one bad protein. Maybe Adrianna's cinnamite might
work?
Marc
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