Aquaponics Digest - Sun 11/14/99
Message 1: H20 Heat, Long but EZ Read
from Bill
Message 2: Totally Jazzed!
from Bill
Message 3: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Sat 11/13/99
from "Bruce Van Roekel"
Message 4: Re: heating revisted
from "TGTX"
Message 5: Re: heating revisted
from PDOSSJR
Message 6: Re: heating revisted
from MUDDTOO
Message 7: Re: Totally Jazzed!
from MUDDTOO
Message 8: Re: heating revisted
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 9: Re: heating revisted
from "TGTX"
Message 10: Re: heating revisted
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 11: Re: heating revisted
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 12: Re: heating revisted
from "TGTX"
Message 13: Re: heating revisted
from mmiller@pcsia.com
Message 14: Re: heating revisted
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 15: Re: heating revisted
from MUDDTOO
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| Message 1 |
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Subject: H20 Heat, Long but EZ Read
From: Bill
Date: 14 Nov 99 00:39:04 PST
>So, water it is then.
But I suppose that anything you add to the water is going to
reduce the capacity of the sink, most likely cancelling the gain?
*Well, no. Just fill a 2 liter bottle with water, remove one cup... about
12%,
(then measuring as you go) add salt (and recall the olc cook's adage, "a
pint's a pound, the world 'round) and see how MUCH you can add, w/o capac=
ity
reduction. (Use sugar, add to drinks later. ;>)
> 1 Btu/lb deg F =3D 4.187 Kj/Kg deg K
900 btu/sq ft winter and about 2500 btu/sq ft summer.
That's instantaneous radiation, ot a daily total.
*I have to take issue with the term, 'instantaneous.'
That implies less than a minute, less than a second, as
stuffed into a calculation, will result in infinite energy.
Though I'm sure this was just a hurriedly mis-chosen word.
I've read this somewhere & can't refind it,
but I think that's per hour, & that's needed to be known.
It feels right, at this late, no, EARLY hour.
Kj up there, Kilojoule... joule, a unit of work,
which requires time as a component.
Like hp=3D33,000 ft/lb/min or 550 ft/lb/sec
Rushing to the privvy library I found, in it's place,
"The Intelligent Man's guide to the Physical Sciences"
by Issac Asimov, which yielded...
no helpful information at all. (Hold up laughter cue card.)
OK...
force =3D mass x acceleration
work =3D force x distance, so work =3D m x a x d
1 Kg/meter/sec^2 =3D 1 newton meter =3D 1 joule
Heat Energy to raise 1 gm of water 1 d=B0C =3D 1 calorie
Heat Energy to raise 1 lb of water 1 d=B0F =3D 1 Btu
1 Btu =3D 252 cal. (We'll skip this math. OK?
or do you want to calculate how much heat is liberated when
the water returns to the tank at ___ gpm and falls 6"? :>)
to raise 1 Kg of water from 10=B0C to 27=B0C (50=B0F to ~80=B0F)
requires (27-10) or 17 x 1000grams =3D 17,000 cal =
to raise 7.48 lb of water (1 gal) from 50=B0F to 80=B0F
requires ~7.5 x (80 - 30) =3D 7.5 x 30 =3D 225 Btu
If you built your tank, 8.34 gal per ft^3,
or 231 in^3/gal, ^3 means third power or 'cubic'
to raise 1600 gal from 50=B0F to 80=B0F requires
1600 x 7.5 x 30 =3D 360,000 Btu
My house is small, in a temperate climate.
The heater is about 60,000 Btu per hr.
(Old, 60,000 Btu INPUT, 70%(?) eff.)
Of course, once to temp, with GOOD insulation,
little additional heating (?)of the tank will be required.
But I'm looking at solar (natural) gain now, =
to calculate required additional 'synthetic'
(fossil/elec) needs, to be on standby.
>Just a thought - couldn't the heat storage water in winter
also be the same water used to grow the fish? I think so.
The symbiosis of this is my thrust. Dual purpose, triple,
eventual quazi-biospherical. Heat fish? Or at least help
to reduce your heating bill. Maybe heat an outside
insulated inground (cheap) tank. Maybe warm the surrounding
air, filled with tomatoes!!! Solar greenhouse.
Solar aquaponics. Maybe a (don't say it...) Solar System!
In Alaskan Greenhouses 'self-sufficients' use a tank for =
just this purpose. (As well as angling forward and =
rear walls for optimum solar gain.)
They throw fish in as an after-thought! And SOMETIMES
use the detritis as fertilizer SUPPLIMENT for the plants.
Thanks for the solar btu input info. I've got easy
derivatives allowing someone to use a camera as a
light meter. Should be able to calc heat gain from
this, say on scrap water heater tanks used, or 55 gal
drums, etcetras, blackened as a heat trap/source.
Bill OOWON@Netscape.net
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Subject: Totally Jazzed!
From: Bill
Date: 14 Nov 99 01:56:40 PST
Pardon the vulgarity...
>900 btu/sq ft in the winter and about 2500 btu/sq ft in summer.
Without going into details, I plugged these numbers into an
Excel speadsheet. I used the 1600 gal tank, 50 and 80
degrees F, assumed 4 sq ft of direct collector surface
area on a 1x4 ft water heater tank core and an equal
amount of mirrors for 8 sq ft of total collector surface area.
With 4 to 8 hours of sun (that's the hard part for my area)
the tank reaches temp in 2.25 to 12.5 days. With a 50%
heat loss and 4 hrs, it would get hot in a month and
stay hot, free. This, isn't so hard, after all.
Thanks all!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bill OOWON@Netscape.net
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Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Sat 11/13/99
From: "Bruce Van Roekel"
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 05:35:27 -0800
unscribe
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 08:08:14 -0600
About a year or two ago, I posted a description and references for a solar
water heater described in an article in the Progressive Fish Culturist. It
involved coiling 1/2 inch black poly pipe into 2 coils inside a 4 x 8
fiberglas glazed and insulated "box". The other end was an underground tank
for heat storage as I recall. They specified the type of pump, but I can
recall now. The reference photocopy is in a box somewhere between here and
Timbuktu.
This system was used successfully in a hybrid striped bass hatchery which
had several of these solar collectors outside a greenhouse, with the
underground tank being inside the greenhouse.
If anyone saved that post (I didn't), you can forward it to the group for
renewed discussion/review
Ted
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: PDOSSJR
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:25:13 EST
Ted,
I can't help you with a copy of the post you refered to. But if you are
interested in the pumps; I have an old Sierra Solar catalog. It shows Hartell
Hot Water DC Circulating Pump. "Designed to pump water between a solar
collector and a tank..." "operate directly from a PV module or from a
battery." Several models in the $200-300 range. They are at 109 Argall Way,
Nevada City, Ca. 95959. Technical Info 916-265-8441. Mc Master-Carr has many
models of hot water circulating pumps. They are at: Customer Service
404-346-7000 or www.mcmaster.com.
Paul
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: MUDDTOO
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:30:55 EST
In a message dated 11/14/99 10:25:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,
PDOSSJR writes:
> I can't help you with a copy of the post you refered to. But if you are
> interested in the pumps; I have an old Sierra Solar catalog. It shows
> Hartell
> Hot Water DC Circulating Pump. "Designed to pump water between a solar
> collector and a tank..." "operate directly from a PV module or from a
> battery."
Hi all,
Better yet, set up the solar collector so you don't need a pump to move the
hot water. The hot water will rise to the top of the collector, overflow
into the storage tank, and pull in cooler water from the bottom for free.
And it will do it at the optimum exchange rate too.
Joel
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Subject: Re: Totally Jazzed!
From: MUDDTOO
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:52:05 EST
In a message dated 11/14/99 1:57:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
OOWON@netscape.net writes:
> With 4 to 8 hours of sun (that's the hard part for my area)
> the tank reaches temp in 2.25 to 12.5 days. With a 50%
> heat loss and 4 hrs, it would get hot in a month and
> stay hot, free. This, isn't so hard, after all.
Your right Bill, the btu values per sq ft should have been PER HOUR. The
trick is to size your storage tank so it can continue to supply heat for X
number of cloudy days. You come up with the X value. The greenhouse itself
radiates heat when it's cooler outside then in. Finding a way to control
these losses will make your storage tank last much longer.
Off the top - I would think the greatest loss of heat in a sealed greenhouse
it through the North Facing wall (for folks north of the equator). It
provides no heat gain, very little light, and continues to lose heat
throughtout the day and night. If that wall could be made more insulated,
perhaps with an additional sheet of plastic, I believe your storage tank
would last much longer. As always, I could be wrong :-)
Joel
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 23:02:55 -0000
Hi Joel,
> > Can't help thinking about adding some kind of antifreeze to the
heat
> > sink though, mainly to allow it to operate at lower average temp,
> > reducing gradient across insulation (this is for the system using
heat
> > pumps).
> The real trick is capturing and keeping the solar radiation
> when it's needed and getting rid of it when you don't.
Did you see the proposed Active GH description I posted a while back? In
that kind of setup, the GH captures the solar radiation. The heat that
accumulates transfers to the loop of water-filled tubing and so to the
heat sink (large, well-insulated tank of water outside or under GH)
where it is stored. At night (or just when cold), heat is transferred in
the other direction.
An important point is that the two bodies of water (GH loop and sink)
are connected by a two-way heat pump only - no water transfers between
them. When the pump isn't operating, no heat transfers either. When the
pump is on it can produce a large temp diff between the GH loop and
surrounding air - speeding heat transfer whether it's heating or
cooling.
The reason I'm asking about antifreeze is this:
When used for cooling the GH, the heat pump can continue to transfer
heat to the sink even when the sink temp is _higher_ than that of the
GH. When heating, energy can be tranferred to the GH even though the
sink is colder. Antifreeze would let you take more heat out but
(perhaps) more importantly, should allow you to reduce average temp of
the sink and so reduce the amount lost through the insulation.
Temp control of fishwater is effected by another heat pump but using
same sink.
Well, that's the plan anyway. Any thoughts?
> In Florida this solar radiation is equal to about 900 btu/sq ft in
the winter and about 2500 btu/sq ft in
> summer. That's instantaneous radiation, not a daily total. No wonder
the
> greenhouse gets Soooo hot in the summer!
Indeed, but like Bill, I believe that this rate must be over some time
interval. Haven't been able to find definate figures yet.
Does this list need an FAQ or what?
> 55 gallon barrels painted flat
Passive sinks do make good temp dampers. But that is all they can do.
The hope is that a GH with active sink might not only reduce running
costs while keeping better temp tracking but be a better "chassis" for
further integration.
> Just a thought - couldn't the heat storage water in
> winter also be the same water used to grow the fish?
> I think so.
How much could you actually use it as a "store" though? Presumably the
fish would limit available temp swings?
All the above is based on my current (mis)understanding and is offered
for discussion. All thoughts and critisisms welcome.
Sorry this is so long but thought I'd better explain _why_ I'm asking
about this. Thanks for all the info so far.
Barry
barrythomas@crosswinds.net
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:19:20 -0600
> Hi all,
>
> Better yet, set up the solar collector so you don't need a pump to move
the
> hot water. The hot water will rise to the top of the collector, overflow
> into the storage tank, and pull in cooler water from the bottom for free.
> And it will do it at the optimum exchange rate too.
>
> Joel
Right-y-O, Joel, thanks for that.
This is called thermosiphoning and it is the key feature of a solar water
heater which was tauted as the simplest and most reliable on the domestic
market, that being the Copper Cricket. It plumbs into a conventional hot
water heater via a heat exchange box that fits underneath the HWH. The
Copper Cricket has a closed loop thermosiphon system with a water/methanol
mixture (to prevent freezing). The collected heat on the roof goes through
the heat exchange box underneath the HWH and thermosiphons back up to the
roof again and again. Closed loop. No co-mingling of methanol with your
water supply, happily. Supposed to pay for itself in reduced utility bills
within 4 years...the rule of thumb for investing in such purchased devices,
according to the Rocky Mountain Institute info that I had several years
back.
Personally, I would prefer to bang and pound and hurt myself out in the
workshop with my own black poly pipe funky solar collector thingy...but that
is just me.
Good Luck.
Ted
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 23:30:12 -0000
> About a year or two ago, I posted a description and references for a
solar
> water
> If anyone saved that post (I didn't), you can forward it to the group
for
> renewed discussion/review
>
> Ted
Sounds interesting Ted. I for one, like to see more about this if you or
anyone else can find the info.
Thanks
Barry
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:56:20 -0600
At 11:30 PM 11/14/1999 -0000, Barry wrote:
>Sounds interesting Ted. I for one, like to see more about this if you or
>anyone else can find the info.
Ted - I've not been able to find your older post yet, but if you can
remember the topic it might have been related to (or not, since many times
our topics slide one into another without subject line change), I'll look again.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 18:59:35 -0600
> Ted - I've not been able to find your older post yet, but if you can
> remember the topic it might have been related to (or not, since many times
> our topics slide one into another without subject line change), I'll look
again.
>
> Paula
Hi Paula. Gee I just cant seem to dredge it up from memory.
Seems like we were talking with our good buddy Mike? or Michael? in
Australia? about this very same subject...? I feel pretty sure there was a
Down Under current to that discussion which I found very interesting so I
chimed in with the Progressive Fish Culturist reference.
Guess I am getting too grey in hair and too long in tooth, 'cause I just
can't recollect exactly when I posted it or what the e-record subject was.
Sorry, folks, for my yammering on..but that is what I do here.... and
there..and everywhere...
And yes you are so right...Paula, we do seem to do a lot of free association
as the chatter swarms around multi-various topics simultaneously...without
formally announcing the subject changes...it kind of morphs before you can
say Jack Robinson. Don't know how to get around that bit, since we all seem
to launch off on wild tangents at the spur of the moment.... as the muse
strikes us...Especially yours truly, but, that can be a good thing depending
on the direction and territory we explore....
Ach..aye! What shall become of us?
Well, as long as we have admitted the all too human tendency to get
tangential, then I have to introduce you all to the following strange
website which can only be appreciated ....or feared....or
loathed...depending on your stamina and perspective.....if you have an audio
software thingy installed in your computer box, which I do, and don't
understand, but there you go.. That being said, since we do grow fish in
our aquaponics projects and eat them....hopefully...I thought you all might
appreciate this website.
Have a Great Weekend, All.
http://www.fishydance.com
Ted
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: mmiller@pcsia.com
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 19:15:47 -0600
Unless your collector is inside the greenhouse you want to keep warm be
sure and include some type of flow check valve in the system because at
night your water tank will be warmer than the collector and the flow will
reverse. If your collector is on the roof, you heat the sky, but no
problem if it is in the greenhouse. You could even put in a gate valve to
control the water/heat flow from your water tank into your
collector/radiator or get really fancy with a theromstatically controlled
valve of some sort. Mike, having a flashback to earlier days, Miller
Joel said:
>Better yet, set up the solar collector so you don't need a pump to move the
>hot water. The hot water will rise to the top of the collector, overflow
>into the storage tank, and pull in cooler water from the bottom for free.
>And it will do it at the optimum exchange rate too.
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 19:57:33 -0600
At 06:59 PM 11/14/1999 -0600, Ted wrote:
>Guess I am getting too grey in hair and too long in tooth, 'cause I just
>can't recollect exactly when I posted it or what the e-record subject was.
>Sorry, folks, for my yammering on..but that is what I do here.... and
>there..and everywhere...
Ted - I think I've found the one you're referring to - under Solar Heat, in
the file under equipment/components - just where it should be. Just not at
the "when" of your first recollection. If it's any consolation, it's been
that kind of year for us also. And just in case no one remembers the
comment, last February seems to Ted like it was 1-1/2 to 2 years
ago....yeah, I can relate. Anyway, here's the post I think he's referring
to. If not, send me out again. Paula
From: "Ted Ground"
Subject: Re: Solar Heat
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:12:44 -0600
> From: KLOTTTRUE
> To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
> Subject: Re: Solar Heat
> Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 4:40 AM
>
> I'm open for suggestions on solar heat collectors and storage.Any ideas
from
> anyone would be greatly apreciated.Thanks Ken
Ken,
I assume you meant solar water heaters?
For direct solar heating of water, try contacting Geo Trading Company 2220
W. 27th Ave. Eugene, OR 97405 phone 503-343-6071. They distribute a
practical solar hot water heater for the home called the Copper Cricket.
It works on thermosiphoning, therefore it has no pumps or electric valves
or electronic controls. It can furnish 45-95% of a home's hot water,
depending on climate and conservation practices. The relatively high price
of around $2700 works out pretty well as an investment for either the hard
core eco-warrior, or the penny wise home owner- paying for itself in 4 to 5
years or so, depending on local energy costs in your region of the world.
On the cheap end of the scale, there are simple collector panels you can
build if you can figure out a way to pump and store the hot water. One
design in particular was described by Marshall C. Ray, North Carolina
Wildlife Resources Commission, Fayetteville State Fish Hatchery,
Fayetteville, North Carolina 28304.
The panel is made of a 4x8 sheet of exterior plywood, a 4x8 sheet of clear
fiberglass, a 4x8 sheet of 3/4 inch styrofoam insulation, and some 2x4s to
make the outer frame.
He used 400 feet of 1/2 inch flexible black plastic water line made into 2
fairly tight coils placed adjacent to each other on top of the styrofoam
insulation. The fiberglas panel covers the whole affair as an airtight
glazing. The water can get pretty gosh darned hot using this contraption.
(110 to 120 degrees F) The panel can be placed outside your aquaponic
greenhouse and faced south at a 45 degree angle. (I intend to place
several of these on the existing frame above my evaporative cooling vent
panels on the south side of my green house, along with several photovoltaic
panels, whenever I get all that time I am hoping for)
He used one Continental water pump, Model EC-33A1/3M ($100), two old 41
gallon hot water heater tanks, a Repeat cycle timer Model C8865 ($50), a
thermostat with probe Penn Model A-19 ABC-24 ($30), and various 1/2 inch
gate valves. Every 15 minutes the cycle timer activates the water pump and
approximately 5 gallons of heated water is pumped from the solar panel into
one of the storage tanks. At night, the system is shut off to avoid
cooling the water mass.
This system was used to heat water for brine shrimp culture as part of the
striped bass fry hatchery operations there in North Carolina. It is
described in detail in a Technical Note that appeared on pages 283-285 of
an issue of the Progressive Fish Culturist, way back in 1982 or 1983.
Sorry I don't have the particular volume to refer you to, but a trip to
your local university library, an interlibrary loan, or a request for a
reprint from Marshall Ray directly by mail might get you a copy.
You can also get good solar hot water heater, photovoltaic (PV), and other
energy related information and products from Real Goods, 966 Mazzoni Stret,
Ukiah, CA 95482 phone 800 762 7325 in California call 707 468-9214. (I
think Real Goods also distributes the Copper Cricket, along with the 12 or
24 volt deep well submersible pump call the Solar Jack)
Other PV suppliers are
Kirkby Solar Electric, Catalog $2 from P.O. Box 12455, Scottsdale, AZ 85267
phone 602 433-8520....
Flowlight Solar Power Catalog & Handbook $6 from P.O. Box 5489 Santa Cruz,
NM 87567 phone 505 753-9699.....
Photocomm, Inc Energy Systems Catalog $5.95 from: Catalog Division, P.O.
Box 649, North San Juan CA 95960; phone 800 544-6466 or 916 292-3754.
An excellent resource and reference book is The New Solar Electric Home
(The photovoltaics How-To Handbook) by Joel Davidson. Available from AATEC
Publications P.O. Box 7119, Ann Arbor MI 48107; phone 313 995 1470.
Another handy little how to book is the RVer's Guide to Solar Battery
Charging by Noel and Barbar Kirkby, also from AATEC Publicatons.
A solar powered, solar-heated aquaponics greenhouse would be a thing to
behold.
Happy Plumbing, or Wiring!
Ted
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: MUDDTOO
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 22:26:07 EST
In a message dated 11/14/99 5:29:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mmiller@pcsia.com writes:
> Unless your collector is inside the greenhouse you want to keep warm be
> sure and include some type of flow check valve in the system because at
> night your water tank will be warmer than the collector and the flow will
> reverse. If your collector is on the roof, you heat the sky,
That's correct. In the summer this is what you want to do, force the heat out
of your storage system (that was collected during the day) at night and draw
in the cool. This new cool water is used to cool the greenhouse during the
day while drawing in the heat. Around and around we go.
joel
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