Aquaponics Digest - Mon 11/15/99
Message 1: Re: heating revisted
from "TGTX"
Message 2: Re: heating revisted
from "Wendy Nagurny"
Message 3: Re: Totally Jazzed!
from Ronald Polka
Message 4: raft culture aquaponics setup
from John Shannonhouse
Message 5: Re: raft culture aquaponics setup
from Jennifer Maynard
Message 6: Reference on herbs disease
from "Claude Gelinas"
Message 7: Re: raft culture aquaponics setup
from Ronald Polka
Message 8: Re: raft culture aquaponics setup
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 9: Test for Gordon - one more time
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 10: Re: heating revisted
from Marc & Marcy
Message 11: Fiddleheads
from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Message 12: Re: Fiddleheads
from Dave Miller
Message 13: Re: heating revisted
from "TGTX"
Message 14: Re: heating revisted
from "Jewel" <1mastiff@amigo.net>
Message 15: Re: heating revisted
from "Jewel" <1mastiff@amigo.net>
Message 16: Re: heating revisted
from Borva
Message 17: Re: heating revisted
from mmiller@pcsia.com
Message 18: Re: heating revisted
from "Barry Thomas"
Message 19: RE: Fiddleheads
from "William Brown"
Message 20: Details, but Gentlemen, & is this the place?
from Bill
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: "TGTX"
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 06:41:51 -0600
> Ted - I think I've found the one you're referring to - under Solar Heat,
in
> the file under equipment/components - just where it should be. Just not
at
> the "when" of your first recollection. If it's any consolation, it's been
> that kind of year for us also. And just in case no one remembers the
> comment, last February seems to Ted like it was 1-1/2 to 2 years
> ago....yeah, I can relate. Anyway, here's the post I think he's referring
> to. If not, send me out again. Paula
Thanks Paula, for the date and post. Sorry for the far flung time
estimate....Whew...last February does seem more like a decade ago...I'm
tuckered out.
Ted
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: "Wendy Nagurny"
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:03:25 -0500
Ted,
You're a sick puppy. This, I assume, is a relative of
http://www.hamsterdance.com .
Wendy
>
>Have a Great Weekend, All.
>
>http://www.fishydance.com
>
>
>Ted
>
>
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Subject: Re: Totally Jazzed!
From: Ronald Polka
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:39:19 -0700
At 01:56 AM 11/14/1999 PST, you wrote:
>Pardon the vulgarity...
>>900 btu/sq ft in the winter and about 2500 btu/sq ft in summer.
>
>Without going into details, I plugged these numbers into an
>Excel speadsheet. I used the 1600 gal tank, 50 and 80
>degrees F, assumed 4 sq ft of direct collector surface
>area on a 1x4 ft water heater tank core and an equal
>amount of mirrors for 8 sq ft of total collector surface area.
>
>With 4 to 8 hours of sun (that's the hard part for my area)
>the tank reaches temp in 2.25 to 12.5 days. With a 50%
>heat loss and 4 hrs, it would get hot in a month and
>stay hot, free. This, isn't so hard, after all.
Bill
These numbers seem to be causing confusion, they are undoubtably total
radiation integrated over the course of an entire day, and probably refer
to radiation incident to a horizontal surface. In Florida you will probaby
not see an instantaneous value for solar radiation greater than about 360
Btu/ft2 hr, and a value that high would be fleeting.
The solar constant at the mean sun-earth distance is 1353 W/M2 which is
428 Btu/ft2 hr. This is extraterrestial radiation at a mean distance of one
astronomical unit.
If you are using solar collectors for heating the tilt angle of the
collector can increase the total radiation that is received. The angle can
be set to deliver maximum energy in the winter (more vertical) or a more
horizontal angle will increase the yearly total output.
Ron Polka
Southwest Technology Development Institute
New Mexico State University
Box 30001, Dept 3SOL
Las Cruces, NM 88003
rpolka@nmsu.edu
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Subject: raft culture aquaponics setup
From: John Shannonhouse
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:28:24 -0600
Hello,
I know conceptually how different kinds of aquaponic systems are
designed, plus I remember a few details (esp. from this list), but I'm not
sure what I am missing. Does anybody know where I can find a design of an
aquaponics system growing the plants on rafts? For what I have in mind,
gravel or other substrate would not be suitable.
Thanks,
John Shannonhouse
Department of Genetics
University of Wisconsin-Madison
jlshanno@students.wisc.edu
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Subject: Re: raft culture aquaponics setup
From: Jennifer Maynard
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:58:48 -0400
John, Please share it wiht me if you find it.
Jennifer
John Shannonhouse wrote:
>
> Hello,
> I know conceptually how different kinds of aquaponic systems are
> designed, plus I remember a few details (esp. from this list), but I'm not
> sure what I am missing. Does anybody know where I can find a design of an
> aquaponics system growing the plants on rafts? For what I have in mind,
> gravel or other substrate would not be suitable.
> Thanks,
>
> John Shannonhouse
> Department of Genetics
> University of Wisconsin-Madison
> jlshanno@students.wisc.edu
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Subject: Reference on herbs disease
From: "Claude Gelinas"
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 22:13:41 +0000
Maybe a little out of aquaponic but I'll ask anyway because some herbs like
basil are grown hydroponically.
Could you tell me where to find good reference on herbs disease and insect.
Thank you,
--
Claude Gelinas Agr., D.T.A.
PHYTO Ressources
Varennes, Quebec, Canada Tel: (450) 652 9764 Fax : (450) 652 6182
Des questions sur les insectes et maladies des plantes ornementales ?
Want to know more about ornamental plant pest ?
http://www.phyto.qc.ca
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Subject: Re: raft culture aquaponics setup
From: Ronald Polka
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:24:04 -0700
At 03:28 PM 11/15/1999 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello,
> I know conceptually how different kinds of aquaponic systems are
>designed, plus I remember a few details (esp. from this list), but I'm not
>sure what I am missing. Does anybody know where I can find a design of an
>aquaponics system growing the plants on rafts? For what I have in mind,
>gravel or other substrate would not be suitable.
>Thanks,
>
>John Shannonhouse
>Department of Genetics
>University of Wisconsin-Madison
>jlshanno@students.wisc.edu
>
>
John
Check out this link to the Cornell Controlled Environmental Agriculture
site. It is quite comprehensive.
http://www.cals.cornell.edu/dept/flori/cea/programs.html
Ron Polka
Southwest Technology Development Institute
New Mexico State University
Box 30001, Dept 3SOL
Las Cruces, NM 88003
rpolka@nmsu.edu
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Subject: Re: raft culture aquaponics setup
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:33:44 -0500
John and Jennifer,
Jim Rakocy of the University of the Virgin Islands and head of the
extension service in St. Croix is the guru of floating raft systems.
Check his site at http://rps.uvi.edu/AES/Aquaculture/aquaponics.html
If you e-mail him he will send you additional information.
Adriana
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Subject: Test for Gordon - one more time
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:30:01 -0600
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: Marc & Marcy
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:30:21 -0700
I now understand why Al Gore claims to have invented the
internet.
Marc
Wendy Nagurny wrote:
>
> Ted,
> You're a sick puppy. This, I assume, is a relative of
> http://www.hamsterdance.com .
> Wendy
> >
> >Have a Great Weekend, All.
> >
> >http://www.fishydance.com
> >
> >
> >Ted
> >
> >
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Subject: Fiddleheads
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:49:31 -0500
Has anybody ever looked into growing fiddleheads? A chef asked me about
them last week. For those of you who have never been to Nova Scotia,
they are the unfurled fronds of ferns, which are quite a delicacy.
They supposedly taste like asparagus...
After some preliminary research it appears that they may offer some
potential for utilizing the space under benches to produce a premium
priced, once a year(?) crop. Here is some of what I came up with:
"Ferns are not particularly difficult to cultivate, as long as you
duplicate the natural conditions suitable for most ferns: a fairly
moist, rich, humusy shaded area. Most highly prized ferns for
fiddleheads are cinnamon and ostrich ferns, though bracken fern is often
used, too." (I would stay away from the latter because of cancer
issues...)
http://catalog.dutchbulbs.com/z427.22717.html offers Ostrich ferns at 3
for $5.00. They are supposed to grow from 48-60 inches but since they
are not being grown for ornamental uses and lots of the incoming fronds
will be cut off I suspect that it would not be a problem under lower
benches if the foliage was cut back.
It might be worth a try. Who knows if you could induce production of
fiddleheads more than once a year if they are put outside in the cold
and brought back into the greenhouse again. My findings state that they
will grow in zones 3-8 so it might be a stretch for me since I straddle
9/10. I'm crazy enough to try it with a few plants.
Adriana
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Subject: Re: Fiddleheads
From: Dave Miller
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:15:28 -0500
Sauted fiddleheads are SO delicious in the spring!
Dave
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: "TGTX"
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:34:04 -0600
> Ted,
> You're a sick puppy. This, I assume, is a relative of
> http://www.hamsterdance.com .
> Wendy
> >
> >Have a Great Weekend, All.
> >
> >http://www.fishydance.com
> >
> >
> >Ted
Wendy, you got me pegged. And you just stole my thunder in that I was going
to spring the hamsters on the group in the near future. The problem was
how to segway an aquaponics aspect to the hamster dance site.
Keep smiling, all.
Tedzo.
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: "Jewel" <1mastiff@amigo.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:38:08 -0700
The Solviva book explains a couple of systems that were actually put into
place and operated successfully by the author, in her New England
greenhouse. I believe she sells plans also. One was running black poly
tubing in the rafters of the greenhouse, and the other was a "water wall" of
heavy duty black poly bags - this was pumped to a storage tank for release
when heat was needed. It was essentially turning the greenhouse into a
solar collector "shell". We will be trying lining the back of our
greenhouse with recycled/used commercial solar collectors, and pumping to a
storage tank/hydronic heating system. If we could do it passively though,
using the thermosiphon concept, it would be great. If anyone knows how that
could really be acheived, please let me know.
Jewel
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: "Jewel" <1mastiff@amigo.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:28:27 -0700
> Better yet, set up the solar collector so you don't need a pump to move the
> hot water. The hot water will rise to the top of the collector, overflow
> into the storage tank, and pull in cooler water from the bottom for free.
> And it will do it at the optimum exchange rate too.
>
> Joel
I'd really like to know more and perhaps implement something like that.
Have you actually done this Joel, or know someone who has? I read about
something like this in the Jade Mountain catalog, but it was too vague to be
of use.
Jewel
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: Borva
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:08:01 EST
I have been following the discussion of greenhouse heating and would
appreciate some feedback on the following.
Some great calculation methods and hopefully some practical ideas.
http://metalab.unc.edu/london/renewable-energy/solar/Nick.Pine/maillist.html
Ed
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: mmiller@pcsia.com
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:59:26 -0600
Jewel, the simplest system would be the water wall concept. You fill
barrels, pyrex tubes or whatever with water and expose them to sunlight.
You could insulate the back if you like. The thermal mass will even out
the temperature variations in the greenhouse. A passive system is the best
from an engineering and maintenance point of view. I have one fairly
recent book that may still be in print called Passive Solar Energy, 2nd Ed.
by Bruce Anderson and Malcolm Wells ISBN 0-931790-22-0. It covers all the
common concepts of passive solar. Mike Miller
At 17:38 15-11-99 -0700, you wrote:
>The Solviva book explains a couple of systems that were actually put into
>place and operated successfully by the author, in her New England
>greenhouse. I believe she sells plans also. One was running black poly
>tubing in the rafters of the greenhouse, and the other was a "water wall" of
>heavy duty black poly bags - this was pumped to a storage tank for release
>when heat was needed. It was essentially turning the greenhouse into a
>solar collector "shell". We will be trying lining the back of our
>greenhouse with recycled/used commercial solar collectors, and pumping to a
>storage tank/hydronic heating system. If we could do it passively though,
>using the thermosiphon concept, it would be great. If anyone knows how that
>could really be acheived, please let me know.
>Jewel
>
>
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Subject: Re: heating revisted
From: "Barry Thomas"
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 02:21:27 -0000
Hi Ed,
Just had a quick peer around. Looks interesting, thanks for the pointer.
Grabbed a few articles to read later.
Have to ask: _Why_ did you not mention this particular store of info
before now - like to see a man flailing about in the dark or what? ;)
Barry
barrythomas@crosswinds.net
> I have been following the discussion of greenhouse heating and would
> appreciate some feedback on the following.
>
> Some great calculation methods and hopefully some practical ideas.
>
>
http://metalab.unc.edu/london/renewable-energy/solar/Nick.Pine/maillist.html
>
> Ed
>
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Subject: RE: Fiddleheads
From: "William Brown"
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:25:15 -1000
Fern shoots are quite commonly consumed here in Hawaii. The fern itself
grows like a weed and ours is not particular to soil conditions, can reach 6
feet high but can be harvested when much smaller. I'd be interested in some
web sites to identify which type of fern we have here. Perhaps ours are of
inferior quality but they have little to compare with asparagus except in
concept. However they are great as a lightly vinegared salad or cooked
slightly as a green in other dishes. Send me the chefs name and I'll send
him a sample, it's available year round.
William Brown mahiwai@cmpmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: aquaponics
[mailto:aquaponics]On Behalf Of Adriana Gutierrez &
Dennis LaGatta
Sent: Monday, November 15, 1999 12:50 PM
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com; Jorg D. Ostrowski
Subject: Fiddleheads
Has anybody ever looked into growing fiddleheads? A chef asked me about
them last week. For those of you who have never been to Nova Scotia,
they are the unfurled fronds of ferns, which are quite a delicacy.
They supposedly taste like asparagus...
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Subject: Details, but Gentlemen, & is this the place?
From: Bill
Date: 15 Nov 99 21:23:33 PST
>Guess I am getting too grey in hair and too long in tooth, 'cause I just
can't recollect exactly when I posted it or what the e-record subject was
launch off on wild tangents at the spur of the moment....
Ach..aye! What shall become of us?
>Does this list need an FAQ or what?
***OK. This is sure borderline O.T.
So I'd like you all to recall the person (not as an individual...) who
complained we were talking hydroponics, not aquaponics... Probably it was just
a poor choice of words. Obviously they are subsystem and system, as
aquaponics goes. But you get the idea. We covered the quanity of heat
required. And that solar could easily do it for many. Now we are mixing that
with greenhouses. I'm delighted. But how shall the site(s0 be constructed?
One site to cover ALL aspects, and in detail? Or a central site, and related
subsystems, 1) on another site, 2) off plist, which is harder for all to
listen in and join in, 3) FAQ??? Where do we get the answers to begin with.
When I asked my earliest questions, I wanted (amongst many ?'s) to know
heating requirements. It took me 2 wks to discover Tilapia need 80F, and then
that they can tolerate 54F, with a slower but perhaps acceptable growth rate.
I want you guys who have been here longer, to appaise this, as this site is
concerned. As a newcomer, I want to respect your groundwork, your fishin'
hole. And move over a little if you'd like.
>In Alaskan Greenhouses 'self-sufficients' use a tank for
just this purpose. (As well as angling forward and
rear walls for optimum solar gain.)
>Off the top - I would think the greatest loss of heat in a sealed greenhouse
it through the North Facing wall
>The panel can be placed outside your aquaponic
greenhouse and faced south at a 45 degree angle.
Greenhouses I have lots of questions about. Yet, I have read and graphed so
much about them, lots of this I know, tho' may be rusty on. Sure North is
cold. No sun. Standard is to insulate that like heck!!! in Alaska, R-30 or
so.
Panel angle... depends on design of collector and (if any) reflector (North
wall, sometimes, is used to reflect onto plants and aquapond/tank both.)
These angles depend on your latitude. And when you want max sun, or average
best sun, you design for one of those. Usually summer sun is so strong, it is
regarded less (for green houses.)
>The hot water will rise to the top of the collector, overflow
into the storage tank, and pull in cooler water from the bottom for free.
And it will do it at the optimum exchange rate too.
>This is called thermosiphoning and it is the key feature of a solar water
heater which was tauted as the simplest and most reliable on the domestic
market, that being the Copper Cricket. It plumbs into a conventional hot
water heater via a heat exchange box that fits underneath the HWH.
>Passive sinks do make good temp dampers. But that is all they can do.
It's ideal. But must be modified for less than ideal design parameters, ie.
lay of the land you've been given to deal with. Flow pipes have to be large,
like a radiator hose, to reduce shear-wall friction.
>Your right Bill, the btu values per sq ft should have been PER HOUR.
Indeed, but... Haven't been able to find definate figures yet.
As soon as he said 900-2500... he triggered my old mental notes.
>Did you see the proposed Active GH description I posted a while back?
Well, that's the plan anyway. Any thoughts?
Send me a copy sometime? Or was that the general outline very recently?
>How much could you actually use it as a "store" though? Presumably the
fish would limit available temp swings?
Like you limit turning your heater on. Thermostat control of this is cheap,
for pump control. And you decide the limits. Fish meet temp swings when they
travel and pass tributaries. They have some tolerance. They're people too,
you know.
>Personally, I would prefer to bang and pound and hurt myself out in the
workshop with my own black poly pipe funky solar collector...
>On the cheap end of the scale, there are simple collector panels you can
build if you can figure out a way to pump and store the hot water.
>The panel is made of a 4x8 sheet of exterior plywood, a 4x8 sheet of clear
fiberglass, a 4x8 sheet of 3/4 inch styrofoam insulation, and some 2x4s to
make the outer frame.
>He used 400 feet of 1/2 inch flexible black plastic water line made into 2
fairly tight coils placed adjacent to each other on top of the styrofoam
insulation. The fiberglas panel covers the whole affair as an airtight
glazing. The water can get pretty gosh darned hot using this contraption
(110 to 120 degrees )
These can easily supass 120 in, say Pheonix... They are called "flat panel."
They have design advantages for areas w/no direct sun. Also are temp limited
(if no heat pump is in ckt), but for 80F are OK. Require a lotta collector
space. More to build than a smaller, high performance system. More to
insulate in sunny areas that have cold winds. You pick, depending on needs,
solar resources, area defecits.
>(I intend to place several of these on the existing frame above my
evaporative cooling vent panels on the south side of my green house, along
with several photovoltaic panels, whenever I get all that time I am hoping
for)
Don't wait for PV's. That can be added later. Use battery and small carger,
on a cheap timer. Don't wait. Build one panel, w/o power, to test how many
you actually need... a proto-type.
A solar powered, solar-heated aquaponics greenhouse would be a sight to behold.
Done carefully, the tank is part of the system, maybe it's such a beautiful
design, you don't even see it. Like the earth... Passive-active?
SHALL this forum remain? We're on lovely ground, but if not OffTopic, barely
OnTopic. In Advanced Electronics my partner & I were the only team to have a
working ckt every time. We were organized, so were often the first done, too.
No waste, no stress. If we split the portions of the learning, like lawyers
do in school, become teams, then share notes, we'd be ahead perhaps. Or do
this is an Energy-ponics List, a sub-part of this List, after all, energy,
set-up or start-up costs are all part of overhead, and belong to aquaponics,
but is perhaps, not it's main thrust. I'd like to see fish here, collectors
there, associated systems another spot, or something. Or would we dilute
ourselves too much? (No pun intended.)
Host, all? No ego here. But I'd like to pursue this train further, however,
feel guilty that others may feel their main interest pushed aside.
Your friend, I like this bunch... Bill
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