Aquaponics Digest - Thu 12/09/99




Message   1: Re: Spinach germination

             from Jeff 

Message   2: Re: Spinach germination

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Message   3: Re: Copper - was Aloha

             from ESohm

Message   4: Re: Seeding

             from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message   5: Spinach, Hydro Links

             from Bill 

Message   6: Spinach, Hydro Links

             from Bill 

Message   7: Dealing with wholesalers

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Message   8: More thoughts on wholesalers + packaging question

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Message   9: Re: garlic shoots

             from Vik Olliver 

Message  10: Packageing

             from Peggy & Emmett 

Message  11: Re: Packaging

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Message  12: Re: Spinach germination

             from Dave Miller 

Message  13: Packaging

             from Peggy & Emmett 

Message  14: Re: Packaging

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Message  15: (no subject)

             from Shyloah

Message  16: Re: Packaging

             from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message  17: Re: fish feed aloha

             from Bertmcl

Message  18: Re: fish feed aloha

             from Jim Sealy Jr 

Message  19: Re: fish feed aloha

             from dbenhart@essex1.com (David Benhart)

Message  20: Re: Packaging

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Message  21: "Alex ,I'll take "FISH FOOD" for 1000.....Re: fish feed aloha

             from William Evans 

Message  22: fish feed

             from Shyloah

Message  23: Re: Spinach germination

             from Jeff 

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| Message 1                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Spinach germination

From:    Jeff 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 05:21:22 -0700

Ronald Polka wrote:

> 

>         I have recently tried to germinate spinach for a floating raft system but

> have had dismal results regarding the germination rate. I switched to

> distilled water but saw no improvement. I have read of spinach seed

> treatments that work well but require chemicals that are not readily

> available and are expensive. Does anyone have any suggestions for spinach

> seed germination treatments that are relatively simple yet effective. TIA

> for any suggestions.

> 

> Ron Polka

> Southwest Technology Development Institute

> New Mexico State University

> Box 30001, Dept 3SOL

> Las Cruces, NM  88003

> rpolka@nmsu.edu

try placing the seed in a sealed plastic bag with an apple or two. When

apples ripen they give off actylene(spelling?) gas which helps

germination of seeds. I have recently tried this and it seems to make a

difference with my spinach germination rate.

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| Message 2                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Spinach germination

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 11:50:39 -0500

Ron,

According to Gordon Creaser, getting spinach to germinate is a classic

problem which field growers overcome by massive overseeding.  Is the gas

given off by the apples the same one used to ripen bananas?

Adriana

> try placing the seed in a sealed plastic bag with an apple or two. When

> apples ripen they give off actylene(spelling?) gas which helps

> germination of seeds.

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| Message 3                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Copper - was Aloha

From:    ESohm

Date:    Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:39:23 EST

Rf copper may have a protective lacquer coating on it which would act like an 

insulator.

Evan

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| Message 4                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Seeding

From:    S & S Aqua Farm 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 11:39:47 -0600

At 07:15 AM 12/08/1999 -0600, Jay wrote:

>Paula

>

>Do you seed crops like lettuce and basil directly into your pea gravel ?

We do, and each has a little different "behavior".  You can generally expect

good germination in the gravel, but you'll have to be sure to cover your

lettuce seeds - most of them are shaped like little boats and can't wait for

the chance to float away should your bed water level get too high.  As long

as you pinch some gravel over the top, you'll be fine.

Basil, on the other hand, has such a thick gel coat that you can germinate

on top the gravel if you want.  Just be sure to wet the seeds when you put

them out - you'll see the get coat soften almost immediately and adhere to

the gravel, holding the seeds in place.  I usually seed real thickly, then

take the healthiest of the "starts" for transplanting.

Don't forget that basil will want higher air temps than your lettuces for

good growth.  Low temperatures will make the basils susceptible to all kinds

of problems.

>Solved my pumping problems and gas water heaters being installed Thursday,

>so I'm maybe a week away from fish.

>

>Jay

Hurray for you!!  Keep us posted.

Paula

S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124

Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

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| Message 5                                                           |

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Subject: Spinach, Hydro Links

From:    Bill 

Date:    9 Dec 99 09:55:12 PST

>>Subject: Spinach germination

 ... Does anyone have any suggestions for spinach seed germination treatm=

ents

that are relatively simple yet effectiveRon Polka

>Subject: Re: Spinach germination

 in cool location. cooler weather crop. friend tried =

rockwool NFT but too warm in the greenhouse.

Marlan

*Ortho says 70 optimim, 75 max, 32 minimum.

(soil temp for germination, best error on low side of 70?)

Bill

-----------------------

>Subject:Also could use info on sources for making or buying an indoor sm=

aller

aquapoonics system. Thank you

Lee

*Compiling a list

(Would like others also, folks...

A sustainable school has requested links.)

Will send it direct, Lee, or others.

Bill

____________________________________________________________________

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=

ail.netscape.com.

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| Message 6                                                           |

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Subject: Spinach, Hydro Links

From:    Bill 

Date:    9 Dec 99 10:20:58 PST

>Subject: Spinach germination

From:    Ronald Polka 

>Does anyone have any suggestions for spinach

seed germination treatments that are relatively simple yet effective.

Ron Polka

rpolka@nmsu.edu

----

>try cool location. cooler weather crop.

friend tried rockwool NFT but too warm in greenhouse.

Marlan

* Ortho says for siol germination, 32 min, 70 ideal, 75 max.

------------------------------

Subject: fish feed

Also could use info on sources for making or buying an indoor smaller =

aquapoonics system. Thank you Lee

(Was afraid TIA [Thank You in Advance] was 'To Individual Addressor')

Had to look it up. lol

Have a list I'll send direct.

I'd like more, folks, for myself and a sustainable school effort

which an organization has asked for.  Once a list of links is made, I cou=

ld

post it for a neat FAQ entry, rather than scattered.

Bill

____________________________________________________________________

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=

ail.netscape.com.

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| Message 7                                                           |

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Subject: Dealing with wholesalers

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 12:58:31 -0500

In planning ahead for the next year I'm considering trying to produce

larger volumes of a few selected greens and marketing through a

specialty wholesaler.  I've asked my chefs to recommend a wholesaler. 

Now that I have one identified, can you give me any advice on

establishing a relationship with them, including:

-  My first telephone calls have gone unanswered.  My thought is to

treat them like I do chefs and ask the receptionist if I could drop off

a sample for them to look at.

- What is the best way to approach them and present them with my

products - for example, I find that my chefs are very dissatisfied with

the quality of the arugula that they get from the wholesalers.  They are

delighted to have excellent, clean, fresh unblemished arugula available

and are happy to pay a premium for it.  My theory is that the wholesaler

should also be happy to substitute the inferior product that he is

carrying if he can find a reliable source, correct?

-What can I expect in terms of price - I'm comfortable with what our

market will bear at the end-user level.  What is a typical or reasonable

mark-up for wholesaling of specialty items?  

Any advice would be appreciated.

Adriana

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| Message 8                                                           |

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Subject: More thoughts on wholesalers + packaging question

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 13:48:30 -0500

Here are a couple of more thoughts on dealing with a prospective

wholesaler.

I have in mind an approach to help him or her penetrate the target

market with my products.  In the case of established products like

arugula or tarragon, I suspect that simply providing them with samples

which they can distribute to established customers should be sufficient.

In the case of introduction of new products which are new to the area

such as unusual oriental greens, what is the usual modus operandi of

produce wholesalers:

1. Samples plus product information

2. Samples plus recipe suggestions

3. Visits to prospective customers with the wholesaler's sales rep to

introduce the product (and train the rep)

4.  Setting up a demonstration somewhere and inviting the local chefs

5.  Making contact with the local chef's organization

6.  All of the above

On a different topic, I'm looking for a packaging alternative to plastic

bags or Ziplocks which will hold 1# of greens like tatsoi, mizuna or pea

vines.  The ideal package would be a clear plastic box about the size of

a larfe shoe box.  It would similar to the containers used for takeout

salads. I've contacted several packaging representatives and it appears

that there is no stock item this size.  My objectives in switching to

this package are:

1.  Protect the product in storage from crushing whle providing good

shelf life, this requires a good seal

2.  Allow chefs to stack it in their cooler, keeping them from getting

lost behind other thngs

3.  Provide a good presentation to justify a premium price

So far the largest container I've been able to locate holds one gallon,

which will only accomodate maybe half a pound. (With the exception of

muffin containers which have a domed lid which is not appropriate) Does

anybody have any suggestions on alternative packaging or suppliers to

check with?

Adriana

Adriana

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| Message 9                                                           |

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Subject: Re: garlic shoots

From:    Vik Olliver 

Date:    Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:11:23 +1200

Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:

> So...in order to qualify for your project the plants have to be "out of

> this world"?  I assume you're familar with NASA's Controlled Ecological

> Life Support Systems studies of various plants?

Yup, the CELSS website was most useful. I take a slightly different

approach to the problem than they do: I think it may be possible to use

locally manufacture materials to produce a better payback than their

figures suggest, and there are problems with maintining plants through

the lunar night with limited power supplies that need solving. The

recycling system I have in mind is slightly different too, and I hope to

be able to test some prototypes this (NZ) summer.

Vik :v)

-- 

A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com

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| Message 10                                                          |

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Subject: Packageing

From:    Peggy & Emmett 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 15:05:50 -0500

Adriana,

Try www.montepkg.com they have variously shaped one quart clam-shell

containers.

On another note I think it ethylene gas that's given off by ripening

apples..Em

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| Message 11                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Packaging

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 15:27:33 -0500

> Try www.montepkg.com they have variously shaped one quart clam-shell

> containers.

I already buy my boxes from Monte so that was the first place I checked.

What I'm looking for in the way of "clamshells" is more in the 6 qt

size, which as far as I can tell doesn't exist unless you have it made

as a special-order, where you pay set-up charges, etc., etc. big

$$$...The large sizes that DO exist are intended for bakery items and do

not provide an airtight seal.

> On another note I think it ethylene gas that's given off by ripening

> apples..Em

I think you're right. Acetylene is used in torches...

How are your tomatoes, fish, greenhouse, etc. coming along?

Adriana

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| Message 12                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Spinach germination

From:    Dave Miller 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 16:15:35 -0500

Ethylene is the gas

-- 

_______________________________________

互户互户互户户互户



A remodeler, drummer, Kindred Spirit...

Put a pebble in your pocket and a penny in your shoe!

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| Message 13                                                          |

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Subject: Packaging

From:    Peggy & Emmett 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 18:05:10 -0500

Adriana,

A friend of mine has a Food Saver.  She buys the bulk rolls and fits the

size of the bag to the need.  She could package a whole mackerel if need

be.  I don't know how the package would look but bulk buyers are not

probably very particular. Especially if the vacuum sealing were stressed

giving your product greater shelf life.  If you think this is worth trying,

and you haven't access to a Food Saver, come on up and I'll impose on my

friend. She's a close friend and know she wouldn't mind.  And if you do

come up----well the rate at which the greenhouse is

progressing-----hmmmmmmm---at this rate the Lord might be coming back for

the second time before I get it finished....Em

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| Message 14                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Packaging

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 18:19:32 -0500

Emmett,

I think we discussed vacuum packing before and the consclusion is that

it hurts the greens.  I'm trying to avoid bags which can get lost and/or

crushed by big produce boxes in coolers.  That's why I'm looking into

the clear boxes.  When somebody is paying $12-15/# for "fancy greens" he

IS particular (I use the word passionate) and deserves a fancier

package, I believe.  

> A friend of mine has a Food Saver.  She buys the bulk rolls and fits the

> size of the bag to the need.  She could package a whole mackerel if need

> be.  I don't know how the package would look but bulk buyers are not

> probably very particular. 

Especially if the vacuum sealing were stressed

> giving your product greater shelf life.  

My stuff has at least a 7 day shelf life amd I deliver up to 3 x a week

so shelf life is not really an issue.

Are you aware of the Open House at the Suwanee Valley Extension Service

office on January 8?  There will be educational programs on Specialty

produce and direct marketing.  I'm planning to go.  Let me know if

you're interested.

Adriana

(sounds like you need to fire your contractor and get a whole new labor

force :>)

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| Message 15                                                          |

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Subject: (no subject)

From:    Shyloah

Date:    Thu, 9 Dec 1999 18:36:42 EST

Thankyou for the information you are sharing.

Enjoying the message  group.

Thanks

Lee

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| Message 16                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Packaging

From:    S & S Aqua Farm 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 18:05:17 -0600

Sorry I haven't kept up on this thread (and it will be hours before I get

back here), but you might want to check out Berlin Packaging's website:

http://www.berlinpackaging.com

I don't have a current catalog in front of me, but they carry all types of

food packaging items and don't have minimum order restrictions.  And if they

have something you think would work they're usually willing to send samples.

Paula

S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124

Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

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| Message 17                                                          |

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Subject: Re: fish feed aloha

From:    Bertmcl

Date:    Thu, 9 Dec 1999 19:16:55 EST

Tilipia LOVE "Duck Weed" my brother calls it "Tilipia Ice cream" . I want to 

set a couple of aquariums and feed one regular fish feed and the other Duck 

Weed  and compare the growth rates, etc. this may be still a month away 

depending on availablity of  some FRY. I will let you know the results.

If anyone is interested in trying some Duck Weed please send me an E-Mail.

Keep up the good work.

Bert 

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| Message 18                                                          |

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Subject: Re: fish feed aloha

From:    Jim Sealy Jr 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 19:07:24 -0600

Judging by how well a few white carp keep it cleaned out of our catfish

ponds, duckweed won't be a very practical feed from a surface area

standpoint. I've looked into using something which doesn't require light

to grow as a home grown feed. Possibly growing fungi, yeast, or bacteria

of some sort _under_ the plant tables.

I'm working on getting the recycling rights for waste from the FedEx

WorldHub for use with my vermiculture project, but that could end up a

little overly ambitious since it's a matter of several tons per day

worth of paper (preshredded) and ~350 gal of food waste from the

cafeteria (12,000 employees) which is actually a lot less than I

expected, but more than I can handle now without more employees. What

would I do with 300 tons of red worms/year, much les all those castings

they'd produce. Nice problem to have though, don't you think?

Jim

Bertmcl wrote:

> 

> Tilipia LOVE "Duck Weed" my brother calls it "Tilipia Ice cream" . I want to

> set a couple of aquariums and feed one regular fish feed and the other Duck

> Weed  and compare the growth rates, etc. this may be still a month away

> depending on availablity of  some FRY. I will let you know the results.

> 

> If anyone is interested in trying some Duck Weed please send me an E-Mail.

> 

> Keep up the good work.

> 

> Bert

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| Message 19                                                          |

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Subject: Re: fish feed aloha

From:    dbenhart@essex1.com (David Benhart)

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 19:21:44 -0800

WOW      Jim

Lets go fishing!!!!!!!

Jim Sealy Jr wrote:

> Judging by how well a few white carp keep it cleaned out of our catfish

> ponds, duckweed won't be a very practical feed from a surface area

> standpoint. I've looked into using something which doesn't require light

> to grow as a home grown feed. Possibly growing fungi, yeast, or bacteria

> of some sort _under_ the plant tables.

> I'm working on getting the recycling rights for waste from the FedEx

> WorldHub for use with my vermiculture project, but that could end up a

> little overly ambitious since it's a matter of several tons per day

> worth of paper (preshredded) and ~350 gal of food waste from the

> cafeteria (12,000 employees) which is actually a lot less than I

> expected, but more than I can handle now without more employees. What

> would I do with 300 tons of red worms/year, much les all those castings

> they'd produce. Nice problem to have though, don't you think?

> Jim

>

> Bertmcl wrote:

> >

> > Tilipia LOVE "Duck Weed" my brother calls it "Tilipia Ice cream" . I want to

> > set a couple of aquariums and feed one regular fish feed and the other Duck

> > Weed  and compare the growth rates, etc. this may be still a month away

> > depending on availablity of  some FRY. I will let you know the results.

> >

> > If anyone is interested in trying some Duck Weed please send me an E-Mail.

> >

> > Keep up the good work.

> >

> > Bert

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| Message 20                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Packaging

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 21:00:12 -0500

Thanks Paula,

I wasn't familiar with Berlin.

Adriana

> back here), but you might want to check out Berlin Packaging's website:

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| Message 21                                                          |

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Subject: "Alex ,I'll take "FISH FOOD" for 1000.....Re: fish feed aloha

From:    William Evans 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 18:50:29 -0800

s. What

> would I do with 300 tons of red worms/year,

what is 'the best fish food'?

 

(applause)

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| Message 22                                                          |

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Subject: fish feed

From:    Shyloah

Date:    Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:16:59 EST

Would the worms come from composting the FedEx waste?  I believe worm 

castings sell well and are good for starting bedding plants (organic).  

? What are the basic elements of a fish diet?-- plants and animals (worms and 

insects and possibly some fish).  I guess the question is - how can you 

increase the concentration of fish and feed them close to naturally.   

Any info on what one would need to mix a fish food. 

Thanks

Lee

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| Message 23                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Spinach germination

From:    Jeff 

Date:    Thu, 09 Dec 1999 20:50:35 -0700

Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:

> 

> Ron,

> 

> According to Gordon Creaser, getting spinach to germinate is a classic

> problem which field growers overcome by massive overseeding.  Is the gas

> given off by the apples the same one used to ripen bananas?

> 

> Adriana

> 

> > try placing the seed in a sealed plastic bag with an apple or two. When

> > apples ripen they give off actylene(spelling?) gas which helps

> > germination of seeds.

yes same one



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