Aquaponics Digest - Tue 12/21/99




Message   1: Re: Speraneo system

             from "Robert Claytor" 

Message   2: Re: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1497

             from Dave Miller 

Message   3: Re: Speraneo system

             from Borva

Message   4: Re: MFA Speadsheet Excel

             from Shyloah

Message   5: Re: Speraneo system

             from Shyloah

Message   6: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

             from Jim Sealy Jr 

Message   7: Industry Front Websites/JunkScience

             from mmiller@pcsia.com

Message   8: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

             from William Evans 

Message   9: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

             from mmiller@pcsia.com

Message  10: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

             from Jim Sealy Jr 

Message  11: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

             from William Evans 

Message  12: Re: Industry Front Websites/JunkScience

             from "F. Marc de Piolenc" 

Message  13: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

             from Tom Alexander 

Message  14: Re: Industry Front Websites/JunkScience

             from Marc & Marcy 

Message  15: we need "Genetic Engineering"  to save the  forests? that's lame

             from William Evans 

Message  16: OT..Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

             from William Evans 

Message  17: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

             from Vik Olliver 

Message  18: Re: Speraneo system

             from "Robert Claytor" 

Message  19: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

             from Shyloah

Message  20: Re: Industry Front Websites/JunkScience

             from Mrki 

Message  21: Speraneo system documentation

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Message  22: Re: Speraneo system

             from Borva

Message  23: Re: about feeding catfish

             from Bagelhole1

Message  24: Re: Speraneo system documentation

             from Dave Miller 

Message  25: My New Years Wishes-Without Genetic SCARES!

             from Dave Miller 

Message  26: Re: about feeding catfish

             from MUDDTOO

Message  27: Lemna -" Duckwwed" as protein suppliment

             from "KevinLReed" 

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| Message 1                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Speraneo system

From:    "Robert Claytor" 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 03:47:03 PST

Would only like to say "amen" to Ralph, I have grown these plants and have 

long seen their "E.P." ability.  I just want more details.... I have grown 

these plants as ornamentals for years.  Would love to grow them as part of a 

food production system.

Where (I'm stupid") is a better detailing of their design available? , if it 

is?  Obviously there is a very high interest.

Apparantly, the thing works. As an IT guy, my motto for years has been 

"Whatever WORKS !"

bc

rclaytor@hotmail.com

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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| Message 2                                                           |

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Subject: Re: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1497

From:    Dave Miller 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:01:36 -0500

My wishes for the NEW YEAR:

Junk Science or Bunk?

http://www.junkscience.com/dec99/benjerr2.htm

http://www.junkscience.com/nov99/bjpress.htm

Junk Science is a website that I believe to be QUITE dangerous in

dissemination of reverse results, ie. they find the one study that

refutes and hype it. DDT is OK!

          "Many children enjoy Ben & Jerry's ice cream," said Milloy,

"but by the

          company's own standards, its ice cream is not safe. Are they

are choosing

          corporate profits over children's health?" he asked.

Milloy appears here to be a stooge not questioning what other ice cream

companies are doing (or not doing). A quote by B&J over the "no safe"

level of dioxin is taken out of context.     And within a breath or two:

The DDT debunk scares the pants off me:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/991227/carson.htm debunks Carson

author of "Silent Spring" So now we are to believe that "all other

reasons" are for the thinning of the bald eagle shells.

While banned decades ago in industrialized countries, thousands of tons

of the deadly pesticide DDT are still produced each year, causing health

and environmental hazards in the U.S. and throughout the world because

of its long life and ability to travel great distances. It also converts

to DDE and other slightly less noxious forms. It has a half life of 8

years meaning it will take 16 years to dissipate if death does not

occur.

DDT the first of the chlorinated organic

insecticides, was originally prepared in 1873,

but it was not until 1939 that Paul Muller of

Geigy Pharmaceutical in Switzerland

discovered the effectiveness of DDT as an

insecticide he was awarded the Nobel Prize in

medicine and physiology in 1948 for this

discovery).

The use of DDT increased enormously on a

worldwide basis after World War II, primarily

because of its effectiveness against the

mosquito that spreads malaria and lice that

carry typhus. The World Health Organization

estimates that during the period of its use

approximately 25 million lives were saved.

DDT seemed to be the ideal insecticideit is

cheap and of relatively low toxicity to

mammals (oral LD50 is 300 to 500 mg/kg).

However, problems related to extensive use of

DDT began to appear in the late 1940s. Many

species of insects developed resistance to

DDT, and DDT was also discovered to have a

high toxicity toward fish.

Also from http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm

But mosquitoes were killed which is a good thing or so we think.

And somewhere along the line, "ORGANIC FARMING" returned, revitalized!!!

-- 

Happy Solstice, Prosperous New Century!

_______________________________________

互户互户互户户互户



Recycler Dave

A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker

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| Message 3                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Speraneo system

From:    Borva

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 08:56:35 EST

I don't know what plants you are talking about (must have missed a post) and 

I have no idea what an E.P. is (please forgive my ignorance). However, I did 

pick up on the I. T.  and the request for an information source.  Go to 

theVirginia Fish Farmers Association Web Page

http://www.vffa.ova.net/home.htm

You will find the S and S web page with a system description on our links 

page.

Ed

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| Message 4                                                           |

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Subject: Re: MFA Speadsheet Excel

From:    Shyloah

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:05:35 EST

In a message dated 12/20/99 11:37:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, 

OOWON@netscape.net writes:

<< OOWON@netscape.net >>

Bill

The info from Jacky Foo at the IBS Internet Site referenced on this board is 

what I know about and I find it very exciting.  I think this is one of the 

directions of the future in agriculture. (and I certainly prefer this to the 

direction the Monsanto's would take us)

As you may have figured out I am doing something else for a living now and am 

trying to learn about what systems in agriculture will be economically and 

environmentally viable in the future.  

I could probably figure out excell (or my children can) but I don't know what 

figures to plug in or how to measure the nutrient contents to obtain these 

figures.  This is probably ordinary info to you.

Plan to visit an aquaponics site in Jan, I hope, which  info on IBS nutrient 

flows 

Appreciate any info you post.

Thanks

Lee

   

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| Message 5                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Speraneo system

From:    Shyloah

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:25:11 EST

Hi Ralph

Can see that you are ready for action.

The VFFA link you provided is a good source of info.

I need to understand some more details (number of fish to support how many 

plants, essential nutrients for which plants) 

It is great to have internet access to the info on systems that other 

countries will share with us.

Please keep us up to date on the system you and your brother already have up 

and running.

Hope for faster progress

Lee

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| Message 6                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

From:    Jim Sealy Jr 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:09:44 -0600

Then again if they were in bad financial shape, they might sell their

tech to whoever would pay for it and you'd see companies with _less_

controls in the GE biz. Not a pretty thought, even though I do support

(and grow) controlled GE crops. GE/high tech crops are not going to just

go away. There are too many potential benefits. The choice we have is

either grow genetically engineered pesticide free crops, or pour on the

chemicals. Either way we're planting soybeans and corn come spring

because people have to eat and it's simply not possible to fill the

volume needed with pure organic. We'd have to plow under the world.

Which prairies, and forests do you want cleared and planted if we give

up chemicals and GE?

Jim

A little grumpy due to a 3 broken tractors this weekend and a threatened

ice storm today.

Dave Miller wrote:

> 

> As Monsanto announces a merger, what to do with their division

> responsible for genetic engineering of soy, corn, rape(canola) and other

> seeds is up for speculation. This upcoming year might be an opportune

> time to lay blow to a company weakened by public pressure and enormous

> debt on a division that is not making enough profit.

> 

> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:53:17 -0800

> From: Charles Benbrook 

> Subject: Monsanto Merger

> 

> I am sure everyone has heard the news that Monsanto and Pharmacia-Upjohn

> are going to merge.  I have had several press calls re this already;

> people are wondering what this means for ag biotechnology and Monsanto's

> agchemical and seed division.  A few observations --



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| Message 7                                                           |

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Subject: Industry Front Websites/JunkScience

From:    mmiller@pcsia.com

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:35:24 -0600

Dave, you found just another act of a play that is a few years old now and

has many manifestations. =20

Do you remember when congress did away with the Office of Technology when

those pesky do gooders kept telling the truth about various issues before

congress?  The OTA is no more due to government funding cuts during  The

Contract On America.  See below. =20

The number of industry sponsored front groups, spewing New Age Victorian

claptrap, is growing expotentially and this is just another one of these. =

=20

The withdrawal of public funding from University research and the

replacement of adcademic research with industry-quality research.

Reference the CBS 60 Minutes last sunday.  This has cast doubt on all

University research to such an extent many authors feel compelled to

include funding disclosures with their article.  The lingering questions is

"Are they telling the truth or telling us what the secrecy contract

sponsors tell them they can tell us?"  Would you by a used car (or your

child's healthcare) from this type of system???

I think when the history of our age is written, it will mention a

self-performed lobectomy of our knowledge base similar in scope to the

buring of the Library of Alexandria by the Christains in acient Egypt.

Mike Miller

The following is from http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~ota/ .

 " The Congressional Office of Technology Assessment closed on September

29, 1995. During its 23-year history, OTA provided Congressional members

and committees with objective and authoritative analysis of the complex

scientific and technical issues of the late 20th century. It was a leader

in practicing and encouraging delivery of public services in innovative and

inexpensive ways, including distribution of government documents through

electronic publishing. This site honors that legacy by making available in

electronic form the complete collection of OTA publications along with

additional materials that illuminate the history and impact of the agency."

At 08:01 21-12-99 -0500, you wrote:

>My wishes for the NEW YEAR:

>

>Junk Science or Bunk?

>

>http://www.junkscience.com/dec99/benjerr2.htm

>http://www.junkscience.com/nov99/bjpress.htm

>

>

>Junk Science is a website that I believe to be QUITE dangerous in

>dissemination of reverse results, ie. they find the one study that

>refutes and hype it. DDT is OK!

>

>          "Many children enjoy Ben & Jerry's ice cream," said Milloy,

>"but by the

>          company's own standards, its ice cream is not safe. Are they

>are choosing

>          corporate profits over children's health?" he asked.

>

>Milloy appears here to be a stooge not questioning what other ice cream

>companies are doing (or not doing). A quote by B&J over the "no safe"

>level of dioxin is taken out of context.     And within a breath or two:

>

>The DDT debunk scares the pants off me:

>

>http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/991227/carson.htm debunks Carson

>author of "Silent Spring" So now we are to believe that "all other

>reasons" are for the thinning of the bald eagle shells.

>

>While banned decades ago in industrialized countries, thousands of tons

>of the deadly pesticide DDT are still produced each year, causing health

>and environmental hazards in the U.S. and throughout the world because

>of its long life and ability to travel great distances. It also converts

>to DDE and other slightly less noxious forms. It has a half life of 8

>years meaning it will take 16 years to dissipate if death does not

>occur.

>

>

>DDT the first of the chlorinated organic

>insecticides, was originally prepared in 1873,

>but it was not until 1939 that Paul Muller of

>Geigy Pharmaceutical in Switzerland

>discovered the effectiveness of DDT as an

>insecticide he was awarded the Nobel Prize in

>medicine and physiology in 1948 for this

>discovery).

>

>The use of DDT increased enormously on a

>worldwide basis after World War II, primarily

>because of its effectiveness against the

>mosquito that spreads malaria and lice that

>carry typhus. The World Health Organization

>estimates that during the period of its use

>approximately 25 million lives were saved.

>DDT seemed to be the ideal insecticideit is

>cheap and of relatively low toxicity to

>mammals (oral LD50 is 300 to 500 mg/kg).

>However, problems related to extensive use of

>DDT began to appear in the late 1940s. Many

>species of insects developed resistance to

>DDT, and DDT was also discovered to have a

>high toxicity toward fish.

>

>Also from http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm

>

>But mosquitoes were killed which is a good thing or so we think.

>

>And somewhere along the line, "ORGANIC FARMING" returned, revitalized!!!

>--=20

>Happy Solstice, Prosperous New Century!

>_______________________________________

>=AB=A4=BB=A5=AB=A4=BB=A7=AB=A4=BB=A5=AB=A4=BB=A7=AB=A4=BB=A5=AB=A4=BB=A7=AB=

=A4=BB=A7=AB=A4=BB=A5=AB=A4=BB=A7=AB=A4=BB

>=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=

=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF

>Recycler Dave

>

>A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker

>

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| Message 8                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

From:    William Evans 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:09:51 -0800

Jim Sealy Jr wrote: The choice we have is

> either grow genetically engineered pesticide free crops, or pour on the

> chemicals. Either way we're planting soybeans and corn come spring

> because people have to eat and it's simply not possible to fill the

> volume needed with pure organic. We'd have to plow under the world.

> Which prairies, and forests do you want cleared and planted if we give

> up chemicals 

 Gee only two choices? , dont you think that's a little limited in

scope? Or , in your view, it's just not feasable to go organic, balance

the soil , and restore fertility, and meet demand?

 I say it is, and is happening on farmland all across this country.

bill evans

who realizes there's more to organic ag than manure

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| Message 9                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

From:    mmiller@pcsia.com

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:06:20 -0600

At 10:09 21-12-99 -0600, you wrote:

snip

GE/high tech crops are not going to just

>go away. There are too many potential benefits. The choice we have is

>either grow genetically engineered pesticide free crops, or pour on the

>chemicals. Either way we're planting soybeans and corn come spring

>because people have to eat and it's simply not possible to fill the

>volume needed with pure organic. We'd have to plow under the world.

>Which prairies, and forests do you want cleared and planted if we give

>up chemicals and GE?

These are straw man arguments from Dennis Avery of the Hudson Institute,

another one of those industry sponsored front groups.

A simple look at the price for corn and soybeans compared to the cost of

production with these new wundercrops and the level of hunger in the world

and you will see that hunger is not a function of the amount of arable land

but of the distribution of the wealth generated by the society.  

Even now when using GE crops and pesticides and herbicides out the kazoo,

so that I cannot even drink the water from my well, farmers in the midwest

are still paying with income from their off farm jobs for the priviledge of

farming.

What farmers need now is not more production, but less production so crop

prices rise enough that can pay both the license fees and herbicide costs

for the new GE herbicide resistant crops and put food on the table for

their own families.  Mike Miller

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| Message 10                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

From:    Jim Sealy Jr 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:16:38 -0600

Yes, 2 commercially viable choices from a producer standpoint, rather

than spot efforts.

Jim

William Evans wrote:

> 

> 

>  Gee only two choices? , dont you think that's a little limited in

> scope? Or , in your view, it's just not feasable to go organic, balance

> the soil , and restore fertility, and meet demand?

>  I say it is, and is happening on farmland all across this country.

> bill evans

> who realizes there's more to organic ag than manure

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| Message 11                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

From:    William Evans 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:27:58 -0800

Jim Sealy Jr wrote:

> 

> Yes, 2 commercially viable choices from a producer standpoint, rather

> than spot efforts.

> Jim

> Gee Jim, and I thought you wanted to learn.

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| Message 12                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Industry Front Websites/JunkScience

From:    "F. Marc de Piolenc" 

Date:    Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:32:50 +0800

mmiller@pcsia.com wrote:

> I think when the history of our age is written, it will mention a

> self-performed lobectomy of our knowledge base similar in scope to the

> buring of the Library of Alexandria by the Christains in acient Egypt.

That would have been very tricky indeed. Christianity didn't exist yet

when that library was burned.

Marc de Piolenc

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| Message 13                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

From:    Tom Alexander 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:32:24 -0800 (PST)

The response below sounds more like something a grower would have said

twenty years ago. The microbilogical, enzyme and other research done by

Dr. Elaine Ingham at Oregon STate University and her Soil FoodWeb Inc.

show otherwise. Now that organic food demand is growing close to triple

digits per year, there is money in it. So the land grant colleges have

some money to do research and show proof that not only yields can be

highly profitable but disease and pest resistance can be had with organic

methods. Organics has come a long way from hauling manure and compost onto

the field. There are much more modern ways to deliver the sustainable

nutrients and microbes to the soil. Open minded growers are

checking out the latest college research and at least considering it.

Growers who are beholden to Monsanto and the rest will tow their

age old corporate line and continue to add to their billions in sales. 

 

What is really ironic is farmers grow enough food now for the world. Huge

quantities go to waste in landfills. It is delivery systems and cultural

class systems that make people go hungry. For decades Monsanto and the

rest have put out the propaganda that if we just grow more, starvation

would go away; meanwhile their profits go through the roof. Well we are

growing more than ever and more people are starving than ever.

In that vein, check out the Garden Writer Association of America's Plant a

Row for the Hungry program. Contact Jacqui Heriteau, phone (860.824.1018)

or email jacquiheriteau@MNS.com  or visit the web site:

http://www.gwaa.org/services/par/par.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom Alexander, Publisher                        PO Box 1027

Growing EDGE magazine                           Corvallis, OR 97339

talexan@peak.org                                541.757.8477

=================     http://www.growingedge.com     =================

On Tue, 21 Dec 1999, William Evans wrote:

> Jim Sealy Jr wrote: The choice we have is

> > either grow genetically engineered pesticide free crops, or pour on the

> > chemicals. Either way we're planting soybeans and corn come spring

> > because people have to eat and it's simply not possible to fill the

> > volume needed with pure organic. We'd have to plow under the world.

> > Which prairies, and forests do you want cleared and planted if we give

> > up chemicals 

>  Gee only two choices? , dont you think that's a little limited in

> scope? Or , in your view, it's just not feasable to go organic, balance

> the soil , and restore fertility, and meet demand?

>  I say it is, and is happening on farmland all across this country.

> bill evans

> who realizes there's more to organic ag than manure

> 

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| Message 14                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Industry Front Websites/JunkScience

From:    Marc & Marcy 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:37:40 -0700

..snip..

> The withdrawal of public funding from University research and the

> replacement of adcademic research with industry-quality research.

..snip..

I suspect that the academic community cut it's throat when

they decided they should be societal leaders rather than

societal members. I have voted against tax increases and

have urged the reduction of current programs for that reason

alone.

I am obviously not alone.

Marc

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| Message 15                                                          |

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Subject: we need "Genetic Engineering"  to save the  forests? that's lame

From:    William Evans 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:52:37 -0800

 it's simply not possible to fill the

> volume needed with pure organic. We'd have to plow under the world.

> Which prairies, and forests do you want cleared and planted if we give

> up chemicals and GE?

> 

> pulled this off the web, odesnt appear this guy needs chemicals...

hmmm...

"ORGANIC SOYBEANS FOR SALE, no man made chemicals used on our farm

since 1989, no tillage or cultivation since 1995. We now have NO soil

erosion.

We grow our beans in a polyculture of grasses & clovers. We have NO

foxtail, or jimson weed. Our fields ALWAYS are covered with a carpet of

green 

Our production methods are a high technology version of "The One Straw

Revolution". High tech meets organic farming!

Our 1997 crop should yield about 30 bu./acre. or 2500 bu. The beans have

a dark hilum. Call for a sample. "

 hows that yield, low? high? for yellow springs ,ohio in 1997?

even w/ all the chemicals applied today, there is still the same amount

( if not more) of impact by insects

upon our crops,  , as when we first started applying pesticides decades

ago.

 AS far as yields, chem ag has certainly enabled (for a time) the farmer

to boost production. But the soil eventually rebels/ fails.Collapse due

to no more OM. At that point the soils only  function is a matrix to

hold the roots so the fertilizer can feed the plant...

in this context "Chemical ag" feeds the plant, not the soil, hwich is

it's downfalll.

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| Message 16                                                          |

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Subject: OT..Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

From:    William Evans 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:58:51 -0800

http://www.ifbf.org/

Organic soybeans post-CRP option May 11,

1997 

Iowa farmers with land coming out of the 10-year conservation reserve

program and farmers with winterkill in alfalfa are looking at production

options on the land. 

Organic production of food grade soybeans is one option, says Gary

Bogenrief, general manager of ProfiSeed International in Hampton. 

Bogenrief has been involved for four years in exporting whole

organically-grown soybeans to Japan. And he says the market is not being

met with existing production. 

"I can't get enough beans," he says. Frequently, he has to arrange to

purchase organically-grown soybeans out of South Dakota and Minnesota

rather than from Iowa. 

"With land coming out of the CRP and winterkill in alfalfa, this may be

an

opportune time for farmers to look at producing organically-grown

soybeans," he says. 

Organically-grown soybeans must be produced without the use of farm

chemicals. Fields on which the beans are grown must not have had any

chemical applied for the three previous years. 

Bogenrief says yields of food-grade soybeans average 35-40 bushels per

acre and farmers are paid between $17 per bushel for unclean beans to

$20 per bushel for clean beans. 

Farmers raising the beans have to be certified by either the Organic

Crop

Improvement Association in Lincoln, Neb. (402-477-2323) or the Organic

Growers and Buyers Association headquartered in Fridley, Mn.

(612-572-1967). Both groups, as well as Bogenrief, aid in marketing the

crop. 

Bogenrief says he welcomes inquiries on organic soybean production and

can be reached at 515-456-5955.

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| Message 17                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

From:    Vik Olliver 

Date:    Wed, 22 Dec 1999 07:51:46 +1200

Jim Sealy Jr wrote:

> 

> Then again if they were in bad financial shape, they might sell their

> tech to whoever would pay for it and you'd see companies with _less_

> controls in the GE biz. Not a pretty thought, even though I do support

> (and grow) controlled GE crops. GE/high tech crops are not going to just

> go away. There are too many potential benefits. The choice we have is

> either grow genetically engineered pesticide free crops, or pour on the

> chemicals.

Actually, GE crops use 20% more agrochemicals than conventional crops.

> Either way we're planting soybeans and corn come spring

> because people have to eat and it's simply not possible to fill the

> volume needed with pure organic.

Again, a misconception of GE crops. Typical yeilds are 5% lower than

conventional crops.

Why would people grow GE crops if they use more agrochemicals and give a

lower yeild? Because they were sold a line by the supplier; watch

Monsanto merge with Pharmacia & Upjohn now that farmers have noticed the

discrepancy and avoid Monsanto's products. Monsanto is no longer capable

of running as a business.

> We'd have to plow under the world.

I believe we currently grow more food than we need anyway, we just don't

have the transportation systems. We'd need to employ more labourers to

manage crops if we turned away from the standard monocultures, but we've

got rampant unemployment too. Other techniques such as good old crop

rotation and greenhouses increase yeild.

> Which prairies, and forests do you want cleared and planted if we give

> up chemicals and GE?

These are being cleared out of greed and ignorance, not need.

Vik :v)

-- 

A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com

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| Message 18                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Speraneo system

From:    "Robert Claytor" 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:38:13 PST

Hello!

The plants are good old water hyacinth.... the roots hang deep into the 

water and have an Electrostatic Precipitator ability (sorry bout that, the 

term is used in furnace filters, anything to purify air   (or , in this 

case, water)) by using an electrostatic charge to atttract solids.  Water 

hyacinth attract solids in the water (such as fish waste) and , basically 

eat them.  Baby fish hide amongst the roots.  They are amazingly fast to 

grow and.. well, they are just amazing plants.  I really want to know more 

about the Speraeo system....

bc

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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| Message 19                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

From:    Shyloah

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:07:54 EST

In a message dated 12/21/99 11:09:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, 

jimsealyjr@who.net writes:

<< jimsealyjr@who.net >>

would like to share a favorite resouce

Acres USA  1 800 355 5313

When chem ag took over post war to keep the chem co s going   -

this very undept thinking group has educated in biological ag

will send you a free issue

I am reading the Non-Toxic Farming Handbook now  Its excellent  Wheeler and 

Ward

Arden Anderson  Niel Kinsey  are also two people who understand the 

conversion back to biological farming  

bio farmers are making money  and good food

Lee   

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| Message 20                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Industry Front Websites/JunkScience

From:    Mrki 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:34:41 +0100

F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> mmiller@pcsia.com wrote:

>

> > I think when the history of our age is written, it will mention a

> > self-performed lobectomy of our knowledge base similar in scope to the

> > buring of the Library of Alexandria by the Christains in acient Egypt.

>

> That would have been very tricky indeed. Christianity didn't exist yet

> when that library was burned.

>

> Marc de Piolenc

I think it was the moslem's achiewment...

Sascha Mrkailo

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| Message 21                                                          |

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Subject: Speraneo system documentation

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 18:48:13 -0500

Several recent posts make me think that some newcomers to the list might

not know that they can obtain a package of detailed system installation

and operating instructions from Paula and Tom for a very reasonable

cost.  Go to http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/ for more information.

Random question:  Is anybody familiar with Aztec Red Spinach,a North

American native plant, a red-leafed relative of quinoa.  I came upon a

stack of back issues of Organic Gardening at a yard sale (yes, we have

those in December in Florida :>)) which mentioned it.  There are some

other interesting things I've come across, such as 26 alternatives to

beer for comabatting slugs and snails.

Adriana

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| Message 22                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Speraneo system

From:    Borva

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 18:46:39 EST

Yep Robert,

The water hyacinth is amazing for sure.  FYI

You can find out everything you need to know about Tom and Paula Speraneo's 

(sustainable, environmentally freindly, non-Monsanto connected) bioponics 

system on their web site:

 S & S Aqua Farm Bioponics 

System

They even have a simple mechanical drawing, in addition to more than enough 

information to give a clear idea of its operation.  In addition, I understand 

they will send you a detailed manual and a video of the operation at their 

farm for far less than I spent on I T books this week. The quality of the 

video isn't all that great but it will very definitely leave a deep 

impression on you. By the way, you can see some photograghs of a water 

hyacinth filtering system as it is used in a large commercial(200,000Lbs of 

fish/year) operation, on the Virginia Fish Farmers Association web page. Just 

click on the trip photos button on the events page VFFA WEB 

Ed

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| Message 23                                                          |

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Subject: Re: about feeding catfish

From:    Bagelhole1

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 21:51:17 EST

Thanks Jim and Brian for your kind suggestions. Now it is Dec. 21, the 

catfish are alive and well, subsisting on what they find in the raceway so 

far. It is a mystery to me what they are eating, but I have not been feeding 

them. Slowly, I will add more.

Best Fishes,

Tom O

http://bagelhole.org

In a message dated 11/28/99 2:48:36 AM, bgracia@rtripp.com writes:

<Question: I have added 7 - 2 lb catfish to my raceway, along with water 

>hyacinth, watercress, and a few other plants, a long roll of hay in mesh, 

>some clams and clamshells. Do I need to feed them something or will they

find 

>enough in the raceway? So far they have existed about a week with no

feeding. 

>They hide under the roll of hay. Any ideas?

> Thanks,

>Tom O

>http://bagelhole.org

> 

Tom,

You will need to feed them.  Unless your raceway sports insects, tadpols

and other small fish/animals, the catfish will starve.  I have seen catfish

eat algea, but I doubt that your raceway is loaded with the stuff.

Just want to acknowledge you efforts in making the world a better place!

Brian Gracia

__________

Tom,

Where did you get the catfish? Were they farm raised or wild? How large

is your raceway? How much hay did you add? Are there any clams left or

have the catfish eaten them already?  what sort of substrate is there

in your raceway? What sort of filter do you have now? Are these meant

for pets or table fare?

Off the cuff, if they're farm raised channel cats, I'd say feed the fish

a good handful (~3/4 cup) of floating 30% protein catfish feed, a little

at a time, morning and night and then increase the ration until there's

some left after 15 minutes.

If they're wild caught, try to get them to eat some liver and a little

processed feed until they're used to the pellets alone.

 

Jim Sealy

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| Message 24                                                          |

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Subject: Re: Speraneo system documentation

From:    Dave Miller 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:24:39 -0500

Adriana,

Do tell us about the 26 slug/snail alternatives (short of breading and

frying).

As to yard sales, you will never have a basement sale nor a tag sale.

The Aztec Red Spinach sounds interesting. Assuming that you find it, is

this for your salad mix? Perhaps this is now an heirloom crop. Try

"Seeds For Change" or other seed banks. Let us know if you can locate a

source. I would love to grow some for the year 2000!!!

BTW, Happy whatever to all on this list. You are my adopted family. Not

to sound fishy, (ouch) but I feel like I know your smiles and garden

secrets. I hope that Tedzo is okay with his move....

-- 

Happy Solstice, Prosperous Whatever!

_______________________________________

互户互户互户户互户



Recycler Dave

A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker

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| Message 25                                                          |

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Subject: My New Years Wishes-Without Genetic SCARES!

From:    Dave Miller 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 05:47:51 -0500

I chose not to cut and paste what I chose... when I REREAD this site I

realized how poorly we are in our trying to foment change. If I saw that

ALL farmers met these standards I would feel better about the

animals....

http://www.demeter-usa.org/TOUSDA.HTM

Your Comments (After Reading)?! PLEASE?

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| Message 26                                                          |

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Subject: Re: about feeding catfish

From:    MUDDTOO

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:50:34 EST

It won't be a mystery to us when they start to float.  Then you'll have 

plenty more room for more :-)

Joel

In a message dated 12/21/99 6:51:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, 

Bagelhole1 writes:

> Thanks Jim and Brian for your kind suggestions. Now it is Dec. 21, the 

>  catfish are alive and well, subsisting on what they find in the raceway so 

>  far. It is a mystery to me what they are eating, but I have not been 

feeding 

> 

>  them. Slowly, I will add more.

>  Best Fishes,

>  Tom O

>  http://bagelhole.org

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| Message 27                                                          |

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Subject: Lemna -" Duckwwed" as protein suppliment

From:    "KevinLReed" 

Date:    Tue, 21 Dec 1999 18:42:57 -1000

Aloha ( God I love writing that!),

I see the GE controversy rages on ........

In the mean time ...

I found some data about protein content and quality for duckweed.

It seems except for the fact that duckweed has higher fiber content than =

soy beans

( and therefore some negligible reduced ability to be digested ) that =

duckweed is equal to

soy as far as protein content. =20

If you have available sources of sugars and lipids in your respective =

areas of the world, it may be that working duckwed into the fish diet =

might be beneficial to the bottom line.  Can anyone say free fishfood? I =

will be trying to find the complementary sources to round out Lemna as a =

protein suppliment with what is locally avaiable but I think a protein =

source as good as soy is a very good start.=20

GOOD ONE BERT!!!!

Below is URL for a duckweed protein quality study

http://www.fao.org/ag/aga/agap/frg/LRRD/LRRD9/2/ANH92.HTM

Kevin

Anahola, Kauai, HI



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