Aquaponics Digest - Wed 12/22/99




Message   1: Good Heavens is this where we are going?

             from Dave Miller 

Message   2: RE: Speraneo system

             from Rodger Duffett 

Message   3: 32 ways to stop slugs, Aztec Red Spinach

             from Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Message   4: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

             from Dave Miller 

Message   5: speraneo system

             from Jacky Foo 

Message   6: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? Take 2

             from Dave Miller 

Message   7: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? Take 2

             from "Robert Claytor" 

Message   8: calcium in biofilter

             from "KevinLReed" 

Message   9: Re: 32 ways to stop slugs, Aztec Red Spinach

             from "KevinLReed" 

Message  10: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

             from "KevinLReed" 

Message  11: System description

             from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message  12: Re: aquaponics system of Paula and Tom Speraneo

             from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message  13: Re: calcium in biofilter

             from Vik Olliver 

Message  14: Re: Speraneo system

             from William Evans 

Message  15: Re: Lemna -" Duckwwed" as protein suppliment

             from "Mark Brotman" 

Message  16: Re: Organics can't keep up?

             from Carolyn Hoagland 

Message  17: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue  12/21/99

             from DAVEINBHAM

Message  18: Re: calcium in biofilter

             from "KevinLReed" 

Message  19: Natures Way Organic Farm

             from "Dave Bok" 

Message  20: Re: calcium in biofilter

             from "Donald W. Trotter" 

Message  21: Re: calcium in biofilter

             from Joe_Myers@mail.mda.state.mo.us

Message  22: Re: OT. GMOs, prions, other festive cheer.

             from "Barry Thomas" 

Message  23: Re: Natures Way Organic Farm

             from Shyloah

Message  24: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? Take 2

             from "F. Marc de Piolenc" 

Message  25: Ins & Outs / Mushrooms as 'Beneficials'/Product

             from Bill 

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| Message 1                                                           |

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Subject: Good Heavens is this where we are going?

From:    Dave Miller 

Date:    Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:17:02 -0500

By PHILIP BRASHER 

WASHINGTON (December 20, 1999 5:42 p.m. EST

http://www.nandotimes.com) - Don't throw away the

lawnmower yet, but scientists have found out a

way to stunt the growth of grass and other plants

and keep them greener longer by tinkering with a

single gene. It could be a dream come true for

suburbanites weary of the weekly mowing ritual. 

The gene regulates production of a steroid hormone

that causes plants to grow, much the same way

similar steroids work in animals. Scientists have now

succeeded in manipulating the gene to create dwarf

versions of standard plant species, according to

research published Tuesday in the journal

Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 

A tobacco plant that would normally grow 6 feet tall

was engineered to mature at 12 inches by

scientists at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies

in San Diego. The same technique worked with the

Arabidopsis plant, a member of the mustard family

that, like tobacco, is frequently used in genetic

studies. 

"It very much parallels the steroids in football

players. Plants buff up on it," Joanne Chory, the

Salk study's senior researcher, said of the newly

manipulated plant gene. "If you do something ... so

it isn't expressed, you get these little dwarfy guys."

The dwarf versions are identical to the standard

plants in every way but size, she said. 

Plant breeders have long searched for ways to slow

the growth of grass to reduce maintenance on golf

courses, as well as lawns and parks. But

conventional breeding by cross-pollinating different

varieties is far more time consuming and less

exacting than engineering specific genes. 

Golf courses are sprayed with chemicals to slow

grass growth, but they still must be mowed

frequently. 

Tim Norris, the golf course superintendent at the

Army-Navy Country Club in Fairfax, Va., likes the

idea of slow-growing grass. 

"We're mowing every other day to try to keep

conditions as good as we can," Norris said. "If we

could have something that would cut down on the

amount of mowing we do, it would be a great help.

We could use our labor somewhere else." 

The plants the Salk Institute scientists used in their

study are more similar to trees, so there may be

difficulties in getting the technology to work with

grass, said Andy Hamblin, a turf geneticist at the

University of Illinois. But it's only a matter of time

before scientists develop grass that only needs to

be mowed once or twice a year, he said. 

Conventional varieties of grass take an average of

13 years to develop, and the latest breeds have

reduced the number of mowings by only one or two

times a year, he said. 

Gene-engineered grass also raises environmental

questions. Dwarf plants could cross-pollinate with

standard plants and stunt the growth of their

offspring, Hamblin said. The federal government

would have to approve any new varieties of grass

and could limit their use to avoid such problems.

Hamblin said the approval process for a biotech

grass could take several years. 

As for its safety, the researchers said there should

be no danger to children or animals from eating the

grass, since it is essentially the same as

conventional grass. 

Lawnmower manufacturers are not worried, at least

for the time being. Even with a government seal of

approval for biotech grass and its widespread

availability on the market, homeowners are unlikely

to go through the hassle of digging up their old turf

and planting an entirely new yard. 

And many homeowners cut their grass regularly

because they like the way it looks, said Don St.

Dennis, a spokesman for The Toro Co., which makes

Toro and Lawn Boy mowers. 

"It's not just the fact that it's long that makes it

look like it needs to be mowed, but it's because

individual blades of grass grow at different rates.

Part of the reason people mow it is so that it has

an even, uniform look to it," said St. Dennis. 

The steroid that the Salk researchers manipulated

primarily regulates the growth of a plant's stems.

It's release is ordinarily triggered by changes in light

Chory said scientists expect eventually to be able

to pinpoint and alter other genes that that control

the growth of leaves and flowers, enabling them to

regulate the appearance of an entire plant. 

-- 

Happy Solstice, Prosperous New Century!

_______________________________________

互户互户互户户互户



Recycler Dave

A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker

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| Message 2                                                           |

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Subject: RE: Speraneo system

From:    Rodger Duffett 

Date:    Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:23:26 +0200

Greetings from Cape Town, South Africa,

> The plants are good old water hyacinth.... the roots hang 

> ...snip...

> grow and.. well, they are just amazing plants.  I really want 

In Southern Africa they do not occur naturally and have become a serious

pest where they have "escaped" into local waterways. The prolific growth

soon covers all available water surface reducing O2, light etc. 

Just for interest...

Cheerio

Rodger Duffett

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| Message 3                                                           |

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Subject: 32 ways to stop slugs, Aztec Red Spinach

From:    Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta 

Date:    Wed, 22 Dec 1999 03:36:42 -0500

> Do tell us about the 26 slug/snail alternatives (short of breading and

> frying).

I like the breading/frying idea.  I've had snails in my basil lately and

I'll bet they would be mighty tasty if I could get them to grow to 1/2".

Here goes; "32 Success Secrets of Super Slug Slayers!" from the April

1991 issue of OG:

1.  Cleanliness is better than slugliness!  - remove plant and other

debris from the garden

2.  Beat their path to the garden!  avoid using boards as paths, the

slugs love to hide under them

3.  Keep slug food at a distance!  put garden trash/compost far from the

garden,a slug can travel 3 blocks in a day

4.  Don't compound the problem in your compost!  don't compost

slug-infested litter, they will spread from there, burn it or feed it to

animals instead

5.  Design them out!  Plant far from walls and fences, avoid rocks

boards and other hiding places

6.  Till them a million times!  slice 'em and dice 'em

7.  Prune away their paths!  prune bushes so they don't touch the ground

or brush against fences, this limits their paths

8.  Elbow them out with elbow room!   avoid crowding plants

9.  Don't deck 'em!  keep areas under decks weed free or dissolve the

critters by sprinkling rock salt under the deck

10. Forgo kinder, gentler mulches!  leaves and straw encourages slugs to

hide, bark, cocoa hulls and rock are sharp and uninviting

11. Use the barrier method!   a 2" wide barrier of wood ash (best

choice), saw dust or crushed egg shellsand/ot table salt will melt them

12.  Pick 'em!  hand picking for 5-10 minutes daily for 2 weeks will

reduce the breeding stock

13.  Pitch 'em!  throw them in the middle of the road (only in OG:>))

14.  Take 'em for a ride!  feed to pigs, put in soapy water or take to a

remote location

15.  Fork 'em!  if you can't pick them up, use a fork (nice, yuck)

16.  Can 'em!  use empty cans and jars sunk into the ground as traps

17.  Bait 'em!  fill traps with salty or soapy water and sprinkle bait

around them.  Lettuce, cabbage, fermenting bread dough are fatal

attractions.  Slug dough:  1 T molasses, 3 T cornmeal, 1/2 cup H2O, 1/2

T yeast.  Keep leftovers in fridge.

18.  Suds 'em!  It's not the alcohol in beer that attracts them, it's

the yeast.  Colorado State did a taste test and the winner was

non-alcoholic Kingsbury Malt Beverage.  Among regular brews Michelob and

Bud scored highest, PBR was the least favorite.

19.  But keep a head on it!  cover the traps to keep rainwater from

diluting the bait.

20.  And buy by the case!  beer will only attract slugs for 48 hours,

then you need fresh brew.

21.  Make 'em a drink!  make your own liquid bait: 1 cup water 1

teasppoon sugar 1/4 teaspoon yeast

22.  Hang their little heads on pikes! (OK maybe toothpicks)  make a

barrier with the carcasses which will repulse newcomers

23.  Appease 'em!  plant a "sacrifice roow" , afree salad bar to allow

peaceful coexistence

24.  Repel 'em!  geranium leaves and horseradish roots are most

repulsive so consider planting a border with these

25.  Use the bones of long-dead dinosaurs to make them extinct! 

diatomaceous earth's sharp edges will puncture and dehydrate them

26.  Lime 'em!  a 2-4" barrier will dissolve them on contact, reapply

after rain

27.  Trap 'em!  commercial traps such as Slug Saloon, Snailer and Garden

Sentry

28.  Get 'em with a copper top!  copper stripping sold as "Snail Barr

Number 1" by Custom Copper of Venture California will make slugs sizzle

and foam when they touch it

29.  Draw a line in the salt!  a salt-embedded plastic stip called Slug

Defence from Down to Earth Organics in Eugene (Or?)

30.  Make 'em do a Tippi Hedren impression!  scatter birdseed in the

garden to invite birds to dinner

31.  Turn 'em into eggs and fertilizer!  ducks love snails, slugs and

other garden insects

32.  Plan a two-pronged duck attack!  let ducks roam free in the winter

to eradicate most of the problem; in the growing season fence them out

of lettuce and seedling beds.

Phew!  Sources for some of the commercial products mentioned: 

Gardener's Supply, Mellingers, The Natural Gardening Company and

Peaceful Valley Farm Supply.

> As to yard sales, you will never have a basement sale nor a tag sale.

What's a basement?

 

> The Aztec Red Spinach sounds interesting. Assuming that you find it, is

> this for your salad mix? Perhaps this is now an heirloom crop.

I've been told that you can get Aztec Red Spinach from Redwood

City Seed Company, PO Box 361, Redwood city, CA, 94064, 650-325-7333,

website www.ecoseeds.com  I haven't contacted them yet.  Let me know if

you try it.

May you all have a happy slug-free holiday,

Adriana

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| Message 4                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out?

From:    Dave Miller 

Date:    Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:58:44 -0500

Jim Sealy Jr wrote:

 

> even though I do support (and grow) controlled GE crops. GE/high tech

> crops are not going to just go away. There are too many potential

> benefits.

Jim, could you share with us the mentioned benefits so that we are all

less scared? I still envision a pig organ being put into a human or a

fish gene put into a plant without our knowledge. And cows are now

receiving human genes to make them more like us.

Maybe you could fairly and safely bring us into the year 2000?

Recycler Dave

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| Message 5                                                           |

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Subject: speraneo system

From:    Jacky Foo 

Date:    Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:17:27 +0100

To Raul Vergueiro Martins 

Raul Vergueiro Martins 

>Have you considered the high potential of anaerobic bio-digestors?

>You can get methane, and this means heat.

>Besides this, you have a high grade nutrient solution, and a nutrient slurry to

>use in soils.

I responded

>this could be an option for an aquaponics greenhouse system. An example of 

>such a system is at Stensund (Sweden) where an anaerobic filter is used.

RalphMcl wrote:

>Would only like to say, why continue to look a gift horse in the mouth?  The 

>system has been proven to work and why not accept it at face value and grow 

>instead of picking everything apart.  

I dont understand what you meant by "to look a gift horse in the mouth" 

when you wrote:

>The system has been proven to work.....

do you mean an aquaponics greenhouse system with bio-digestors and the use of methane for

heating ?

I woudl appreciate more information on this.

regards

jacky

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| Message 6                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? Take 2

From:    Dave Miller 

Date:    Wed, 22 Dec 1999 02:35:38 -0500

Jim Sealy Jr wrote:

>

> Either way we're planting soybeans and corn come spring

> because people have to eat and it's simply not possible to fill the

> volume needed with pure organic. We'd have to plow under the world.

> Which prairies, and forests do you want cleared and planted if we give

> up chemicals and GE?

> 

Jim, I might be way off base here but last I checked, provisions to feed

the world are not the problem, food distribution and politics are. We

have the land space to feed the world only most of it goes toward

feeding cattle, a serious mismanagement of said land use. Without the

cattle (used for meat and milk) we could use the grains to feed billions

and ALL without a genetic engineering need.

As yet, I await a rational arguement that defines the reasons for

harvesting grains and taxing our water supply (not to mention excess

methane and runoff from animal waste) all for the purpose of feeding

animals for slaughter.

Fish farming in the aquaponic sense seems a much saner route. Anything

that is a fairly closed loop works for me.

While I choose to generally avoid animal products/derivitives I do

understand that the world needs to eat AND that not all folks feel as I

do.

When you ask me to believe that we must "plow under the world" I sense

that we either have a population explosion in which case I state that we

must be prepared to die like all other species on the planet, or modify

our reproduction mechanisms or at least temper our diet.

I find the latter the easiest though birth control is also possible

short of pissing off some religious beliefs.

I respect and expect the opinions of those who can convince me

otherwise.

Recycler Dave

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| Message 7                                                           |

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Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? Take 2

From:    "Robert Claytor" 

Date:    Wed, 22 Dec 1999 03:55:00 PST

Lots of folks have some very good points here, and I find an irresistable 

urge to toss in a few of facts/opinions (not sure of the difference):

Cows don't just grow on grain.  They live on grass around my house, and 

their famous seven (?) stomachs harbor incredible sets of bacteria that can 

turn cellulose into energy.  We, of course, cannot digest grass.  We can 

digest the flesh of animals that grow with the aid of those bacteria.  I 

call the cattle growers around me "grass farmers".

Two of my four children are vegetarians, and I totally support them in that 

effort. But I point out to them that cattle grow on land that is not tilled, 

tractored or sprayed with poison (usually).  I know it just ain't that 

simple, since a lot of pasture around my house is fertilized with litter 

from chicken houses ( in other words, recycled grains).

But I don't think growing cattle on pasture is a waste of good farmland.  If 

you turn the ground,  you MUST plant something else immediately. If you are 

trying to grow something to make a living, you will get weeds (there are 

lots here in GA, such as coffeweed, which is really indigo, which was tried 

as a substitute for old king cotton).  You gotta kill those weeds or they 

will take away any profit.  In the larger scale, most farmers THINK they 

must use herbicides.  Monoculture will bring pests (the dreaded boll 

weevil?) so these same farmers believe they must use pesticides.

I believe the main problem is the fact that in GA the topsoil is long gone, 

due to poor farming practices during the cotton era. Ever try to grow 

something in plain Georgia red clay?  The only thing found so far is pine 

trees, which I call a 20-year stalk of corn. Until we work hard to replace 

topsoil, organic FARMING is almost impossible.

enough already

bc

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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| Message 8                                                           |

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Subject: calcium in biofilter

From:    "KevinLReed" 

Date:    Wed, 22 Dec 1999 02:52:36 -1000

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Aloha,

I am trying to increase the " footprint" of the effective growth area of =

our bioponics by overproducing nutrients and letting much of the =

effluent run out of the grow house into the open fields while keeping =

nitrite/nitrate, pH levels  etc. good for the fish and plants in the =

grow house. Our lab tests show that the soil is about 5.5pH and the =

calcium levels are in parts per/ million when the calcium levels should =

be an order of magnitude higher at least.

Can I use washed, crushed coral or something else that will leech =

calcium from the biofilter into the open fields? Some form of calcium =

carbonate? Any suggestions?

I hope you in the snow have not frozen yet ... come for a visit and thaw =

out!  SMILE

Kevin

Anahola, Kauai

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Aloha,
I am trying to increase the " footprint" = of the=20 effective growth area of our bioponics by overproducing nutrients and = letting=20 much of the effluent run out of the grow house into the open fields = while=20 keeping nitrite/nitrate, pH levels  etc. good for the fish and = plants in=20 the grow house. Our lab tests show that the soil is about 5.5pH and the = calcium=20 levels are in parts per/ million when the calcium levels should be an = order of=20 magnitude higher at least.
Can I use washed, crushed coral or something = else that=20 will leech calcium from the biofilter into the open fields? Some form of = calcium=20 carbonate? Any suggestions?
I hope you in the snow have not frozen yet = ... come for=20 a visit and thaw out!  SMILE
Kevin
Anahola, Kauai
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF4C27.9A6662E0-- .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 9 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: 32 ways to stop slugs, Aztec Red Spinach From: "KevinLReed" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 03:02:27 -1000 Adriana, That was the best list of ways to do in slugs and snails I have ever seen! I especially liked hanging their head on pikes! ( or toothpicks) I think I will hire myself out as a snail and slug hit man. lol Happy Holidays, Aloha Nui Loa, Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 10:36 PM Subject: 32 ways to stop slugs, Aztec Red Spinach > I've been told that you can get Aztec Red Spinach from Redwood > City Seed Company, PO Box 361, Redwood city, CA, 94064, 650-325-7333, > website www.ecoseeds.com I haven't contacted them yet. Let me know if > you try it. > > > May you all have a happy slug-free holiday, > > Adriana > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 10 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? From: "KevinLReed" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 03:20:54 -1000 Hi Again, On Kauai I am working on hardwood trees that have BT genetically inserted to protect them from boring bug the first five years of the tree's life. The trees I want to grow change from leaves to store chlorophyll which are susceptible to borers to modified petals that are not within a few years of growth ( the trees are related to acacia) I would also personally rather eat BT transformed vegi's than ones sprayed with BT or any other pesticide. Too much goes into aerosol and of off the fields. 200,005 tons of pesticide in California commercial farming last year with 80% to 90% of the pesticide migrating off of the fields and God knows how much by home users. Can you say emphysema and asthma in local school children? Maybe birth control, permaculture, organic in some form will work but not yet in a commercial form. Actually, I am studying ways to GE myself by adding telomere extensions to my cellular and mitochondrial DNA. Personally I think living about 2 or 3 hundred years looking and feeling 35 years old would be fun. Happy Holidays, Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Miller" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 8:58 PM Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? > Jim Sealy Jr wrote: > > > even though I do support (and grow) controlled GE crops. GE/high tech > > crops are not going to just go away. There are too many potential > > benefits. > > Jim, could you share with us the mentioned benefits so that we are all > less scared? I still envision a pig organ being put into a human or a > fish gene put into a plant without our knowledge. And cows are now > receiving human genes to make them more like us. > > > Maybe you could fairly and safely bring us into the year 2000? > > Recycler Dave > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 11 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: System description From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 07:47:53 -0600 At 07:28 AM 12/17/1999 EST, Lee wrote: > >Paula and Tom Speraneo have developed an aquaponics system which, I believe, >A does not filter the water before running it through the beds >B gravel grow beds are the filtration >C bacteria maintained in the grow beds for nutrient conversion >D functions with an aerator but much of the O2 is supplied by a shower >effect when the water is pumped back into the fish tank > >I am thinking that this system has less equipment involved than some and more >nutrient cycling. Since the Spenaneo's are hosts of this message board @ >townsqr, I know I will find out if this is the right information on their >system. It is, Lee, the right information in general. However, we do not have a separate aerator in our system. There is an oxygen increase as the water moves through the gravel, and again when the water is pumped back into the fish tank. Paula S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124 Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/ .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 12 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: aquaponics system of Paula and Tom Speraneo From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 08:04:06 -0600 At 09:31 AM 12/18/1999 +0100, Jackie Foo wrote: >I am particularly interested in the system too and wonder if any >quantatitive analysis of the material and nutrient flows has been done for >this system; i.e. what and how much inputs is made into the fish tank >(feed, water) and its output (water quality and fish) as well as the >nutrient flow for the beds. We have done analysis of the above over the years, although the data varies from one season to the next; and because it is an integrated system, the overall production analysis must take into account the volume from the grow beds as well. Is there some specific area you wanted to identify? >Is the bed a gravel bed that serves as a mic >robial filter or does it have plants on it too? We've found the plant production side of aquaponics to bring the best profit from the system, in addition to providing the necessary filtration for the fish. Paula S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124 Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/ .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 13 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: calcium in biofilter From: Vik Olliver Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 03:38:15 +1200 > KevinLReed wrote: > Can I use washed, crushed coral or something else that will leech > calcium from the biofilter into the open fields? Some form of calcium > carbonate? Any suggestions? Good, old-fashioned lime? Vik :v) -- A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 14 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: Speraneo system From: William Evans Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 06:52:43 -0800 I would wager that less pollutants/organic compounds / farm runoff makes it out to sea because of it.Its a great absorber. bill evans > > pest where they have "escaped" into local waterways. The prolific growth > soon covers all available water surface reducing O2, light etc. > > Just for interest... > > Cheerio > Rodger Duffett .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 15 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: Lemna -" Duckwwed" as protein suppliment From: "Mark Brotman" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:07:46 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3E8DC88FA95525947EA05CD1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kevin, Duckweed is an excellent choice. You may also wish to take a look at R. LeRoy Creswell's "Aquaculture Desk Reference" for the nutrient contents of many other plants that could complement the duck weed. Chapman and Hall publishers, 1993. It's an outstanding reference on many othe topics as well. Aloha fo'i ma a hiu hou, Mark KevinLReed wrote: > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: quoted-printable -- Mark J. Brotman Aquaculturist CropKing 5050 Greenwich Rd. Seville, OH 44273 Tel: 330/769-2002, Fax: 330/769-2616 Email: mbrotman@cropking.com On the web at http://www.cropking.com --------------3E8DC88FA95525947EA05CD1 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Mark Brotman Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Mark Brotman n: Brotman;Mark org: CropKing.com adr: CropKing.com;;5050 Greenwich Rd.;Seville;OH;44273;USA email;internet: mbrotman@cropking.com title: Aquaculturist tel;work: 330-769-2002, ext. 113 tel;fax: 330-769-2616 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------3E8DC88FA95525947EA05CD1-- .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 16 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: Organics can't keep up? From: Carolyn Hoagland Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:41:25 -0500 Jim Sealy Jr wrote: The choice we have is > either grow genetically engineered pesticide free crops, or pour on the > chemicals. Either way we're planting soybeans and corn come spring > because people have to eat and it's simply not possible to fill the > volume needed with pure organic. We'd have to plow under the world. > Which prairies, and forests do you want cleared and planted if we give > up chemicals If it is necessary to "plow under the world" or pour on the chemicals, then we have truly reached an impasse. Daniel Quinn makes a bold statement in his video tape on population (and in his other books) http://www.newtribalventures.com/market/category.cfm?Category=12 summary: In order to halt population growth, we must stabilize and gradually reduce the amount of food produced. Converting the biomass of the planet into human beings is a "no win" game. If Jim's statement (above) is true, then we have already greatly exceeded carrying capacity. Carolyn Hoagland .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 17 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 12/21/99 From: DAVEINBHAM Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:14:23 EST In a message dated 12/22/1999 12:04:17 AM Central Standard Time, aquaponics-digest-request@townsqr.com writes: << ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 6 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? From: Jim Sealy Jr Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:09:44 -0600 << it's simply not possible to fill the volume needed with pure organic. We'd have to plow under the world. Which prairies, and forests do you want cleared and planted if we give up chemicals and GE? Jim>> ****************************************************************************** ******** Jim, I have real difficulty with that statement. When you read the literature from any group--- hydroponic-- organic-- --- genetic modified---or conventional chemical proponents, they all claim their " system" is superior to everything else. My observation is that all systems ,when done well, produce about the same amount of food per unit of surface area. The problems come with the economics and politics of any particular "system" of agriculture. Conventional agriculture deplets and sterilizes the soil but as long as enough chemicals are used will continue to produce well. Organic farmers don't buy much from the chemical companies and labor input is higher. Hydroponics works well only with high profit crops and requires chemicals and lots of equipment. GM crops do not produce more food per unit area but MAY be somewhat more cost effective due to less labor. The first problem with GM crops is that no long term safety studies have been done on that "system" of agriculture. Roundup has been around a long time but residues in food were limited to less than 6ppm. To accomodate the Montsano Roundup Ready crops these limits were raised to 200 ppm without any safety study I can find. If you are aware of such a study published in a juried ,reputable journal, please let me and the rest of the list know. The second problem with GM crops is with the incorporation of BT insecticide directly into the plant. Bug eats plant, bug dies. Now, what happens when you eat the plant for the next 20 years ? Found a long term study on that one, Jim ? What happens with the exposure to both more Roundup and BT ? Bottom line is WE are the lab rats in this long term study, Jim, and I, for one, don't like it one damn bit. At least the US Department of Agriculture could have required labeling so that those of us who don't want to eat the stuff could avoid it. But, "No, that is not feasabile to label it and it is safe" says Dan Glickman. Well, at least Western Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zeland, and at long last, Japan are now saying they won't eat it either. Now the grain elevators are telling farmers they are responding to market forces and requiring farmers to do what USDA should have done all along, namely segrate the GM stuff. If Monsanto has financial problems as a result of trying to make people do what they don't want to do then perhaps other agribusinesses will take note and stop this stuff. I cannot say if GM foods are safe or not, but I can say I do not want to eat them. Organic produced foods are safe and I do not mind paying more for them Regards, Dave .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 18 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: calcium in biofilter From: "KevinLReed" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:38:52 -1000 I don't think lime will work as a biofilter on the edd and flow bed..If I use lime I have to buy two things lime and something for biofilter. Lime is always the first option to sweeten a field and fast but why would I use it in the bioponic system? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vik Olliver" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 5:38 AM Subject: Re: calcium in biofilter > > KevinLReed wrote: > > Can I use washed, crushed coral or something else that will leech > > calcium from the biofilter into the open fields? Some form of calcium > > carbonate? Any suggestions? > > Good, old-fashioned lime? > > Vik :v) > -- > A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 19 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Natures Way Organic Farm From: "Dave Bok" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:48:16 -0500 Merry Christmas To All I have been watching this group for a few months and have learned many things,but now I must ask this. How many of you actually farm organically? I'm small compared to some,(150 ac) but I am certified by OCIA,and when God and the weather is with us we do 30 to 40 bu./ac. County avg.is 35.we have also raised 120 bu corn,but the best part is the cows health has gotten better so much better that we spend $3000 per year less on vet bills,now if we can do that with 30 cows what could we do to help the human race???????? The cows eat less because whats in the feed now has all the vitimans and minerals that they need and can USE. This subject will take some time to explain and I hope to post some better explaintions soon, till then belive it chemicals are doing untold amounts of damage to us. Dave Bok Northwest Ohio,USA .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 20 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: calcium in biofilter From: "Donald W. Trotter" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:05:58 -0800 Kevin, Crushed coral is often used in biofilters for maintaining hard water systems in the aquarium industry. There is a very good material that I use made from crushed fossil kelp which is 40%+ elemental calcium. It is called Kelzyme and runs about 150.00US per ton plus shipping. I get it from a guy here in California but it is mined in Nevada. Very helpful in keeping calcium hardness in line as well as providing a number trace minerals to plants in micro quantity. It also has minute (250ppm) of iodine which I have found to keep some pathogens at bay as well. Does not degrade nearly as fast as limestone which I have found to be too harsh and rather ephemeral in liquids. I use the Kelzyme in a pea gravel size and in one small hatching system it is used for a bedding in my algal turf scrubbers. If you are interested in this fossil kelp material contact Douglas Gore at dcgore@earthlink.net At 09:38 AM 12/22/1999 -1000, you wrote: >I don't think lime will work as a biofilter on the edd and flow bed..If I >use lime I have to buy two things lime and something for biofilter. Lime is >always the first option to sweeten a field and fast but why would I use it >in the bioponic system? >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Vik Olliver" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 5:38 AM >Subject: Re: calcium in biofilter > > >> > KevinLReed wrote: >> > Can I use washed, crushed coral or something else that will leech >> > calcium from the biofilter into the open fields? Some form of calcium >> > carbonate? Any suggestions? >> >> Good, old-fashioned lime? >> >> Vik :v) >> -- >> A member of The Olliver Family http://olliver.penguinpowered.com >> > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 21 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: calcium in biofilter From: Joe_Myers@mail.mda.state.mo.us Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:36:44 -0600 > > KevinLReed wrote: I don't think lime will work as a biofilter on the edd and flow bed=2E=2E= If I use lime I have to buy two things lime and something for biofilter=2E L= ime is always the first option to sweeten a field and fast but why would I use= it in the bioponic system? Small limestone gravel should work fine as a biofilter/ ebb and flow, root-support media=2E Although it's heavy and does not have as high of= a surface area as other media, it's cheap=2E Regardless of which compone= nt of the calcium carbonate you are interested in increasing, hardness or alkalinity, it will dissolve slightly=2E =A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1= !=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1 Joseph J=2E Myers Aquaculture Specialist Missouri Department of Agriculture 1616 Missouri Blvd PO Box 630 Jefferson City MO 65102-0630 USA Joe_Myers@mail=2Emda=2Estate=2Emo=2Eus (573) 526-6666 1-800-419-9139 AQUA TOLL-FREE (573) 751-2868 FAX =A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1= !=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1!=A1= .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 22 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: OT. GMOs, prions, other festive cheer. From: "Barry Thomas" Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:57:37 -0000 Hi all, Can't resist throwing in a few thoughts about recent discussions. I personally am in favour of GM in principle but agree with fears expressed about past and current practise. Making plants resistant to pesticides certainly seems to me to be heading in the wrong direction. Mightn't be so bad if you modified everything else to be resistant to the increased levels of toxins that would be deployed as well. Is "feeding the hungry" a good argument for GM? I think not - in the short term at least. I believe the main problems to be faced have already been stated: politics and transportation. The transport side might be sorted by producing more where it is going to be consumed - technically not too difficult and could bring many other benefits also. The politics...hmm... On the other hand: One of the more obvious potential benefits of GM is to modify plants to produce particular substances or materials (medicines, fuels, fibres etc). Plants are incredibly good at using energy to construct large, complex molecules from simpler elements. Not only can they produce the stuff, they can move it around to well defined storage points - useful for actually retrieving the desired product and/or when the product may be harmful to the plant as a whole. Maybe a plant could produce a compound and and store it in modified "seeds" - just the (altered) seed case containing what you want instead of a seed? Whatever, the possibilities for good seem immense. Altering plants and simple animals (bacteria, protozoa etc) also offers potential for improved bioremediation of wastes. Bearing in mind (if it hasn't turned to cheese yet) the recent anouncements about BSE (definate link with CJD and that: Good news - only a portion of the (UK) population seem suceptible, apparently due to genetic differences. Bad news - that portion is estimated to be around 40%) and the rather casual way in which infected cattle were disposed of then, say, some soil-dwelling bacterium which could ingest and somehow destroy prions could well become desirable in the near future. To throw the huge potential gains offered by GM away simply because a few biotech companies abused the technology at the start seems a little hasty. At least as hasty and potentially damaging as allowing the research to continue to be driven in the direction of financial profit alone. Anyway, hope things improve for everyone - whatever the date. Barry barrythomas@btinternet.com PS Someone mentioned half-lives. If something has a half-life of 8 years, this does _not_ mean it will all be gone in 16. A half-life means that whatever quantity of material you have will be halved over that interval. Over the next interval, half of what remains will decay and the next interval it will halve again etc. So, if the half-life of the material is 8 years then after 16 years around 25% will still remain, 24 years = 12.5%, 32 years = 6.25% etc. It is a curve, not a straight line. Not being pedantic - just thought it worth pointing out that we can expect to enjoy the company of these materials far longer than the slightly deceptive 'half-life' title may imply. .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 23 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: Natures Way Organic Farm From: Shyloah Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:41:45 EST I don't farm - have been educating in farming so that I may be able to do an ag related carreer - I do consume food I am thinking that this chem revolution was never necessary for farms - and has made farming dependent on inputs that were never necessary until they killed the soil's micro-organisms Thankyou for being a food producer who takes care of the soil I believe that the farmers who last will be the ones who's lives (money) are not controlled by the chem co's Lee .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 24 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: Monsanto "Genetic Engineering" may sell out? Take 2 From: "F. Marc de Piolenc" Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:01:07 +0800 Dave Miller wrote: > As yet, I await a rational arguement that defines the reasons for > harvesting grains and taxing our water supply (not to mention excess > methane and runoff from animal waste) all for the purpose of feeding > animals for slaughter. The reason is simple enough - people choose to eat meat and are willing to pay enough for it to make the land use profitable. Quite aside from denying people free choice of food, forcing the use of pasture for growing crops other than grass is likely to yield poor results - arable land and pastureland are not always interchangable. Marc de Piolenc .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 25 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Ins & Outs / Mushrooms as 'Beneficials'/Product From: Bill Date: 22 Dec 99 20:59:28 PST << OOWON@netscape.net >> >I could probably figure out excell (or my children can) but I don't know what figures to plug in or how to measure the nutrient contents to obtain these figures. This is probably ordinary info to you. Appreciate any info you post. Thanks Lee **You should get a book on basics/intermeadiate parameters to give you an idea. A system book would do it. I.e. People require about 1.7-8 lbs. of oxygen in a standard municipal wasteewater plant per person per day, to treat their input. Sampls are taken and very carefully measured to gain a representative of the whole system. All inputs/outputs. I generalize here. Pros already know, and can skip a few steps to gain a feel for the whole, much faster. They get to know their own system. Equipment is both basic and advanced, i.e. Both general weight scales, and those which weigh a few hundred grams to an accuracy of at least 1 and preferably a thousanth of that. Depending on your need for efficiency. Is your purpose to grow? Or optimize against a control group? Compare two different fish? I suggest we palaver via direct email a bit ans well as here. I know methods and calcs for this from the experience in wastewater engineering and would transfer that to fish. Look at the example below. ******** >It is a mystery to me what they are eating, but I have not been feeding them. Slowly, I will add more. Best Fishes, Tom O >They hide under the roll of hay. Any ideas? ...in your view, it's just not feasable to go organic, balance > the soil , and restore fertility, and meet demand? *That leaves the chemical fertilizer and poison folks without a product base. To some, a new approach, being non-standard, is termed non-commercial. Re: amazing water hyacinth and forests and above. Re-awakened upon being reminded of compost piles being filled with molds (altho' I felt we were discussing more a sewage sludge with more bacterial decomposition-"methane formers," at the time)and following it to study mycology (to the point of inheriting managment of a List) I discover they are also good at certain toxin and soil remediation, and water polution removal. Also that 10% of soil may be mycelium (their 'roots') around trees in some forests, and are being found to be a cause in deforestation. They are apparently very beneficial to plant as decomposer/nutrient releasers. Cleaning tank flow, MAY be a hydroponic addition to aquaponics. They seem to have some appropriate attributes. Happppppppiest Holidays to you ALL!!! May the King of Fisherman Genrously Bless You As He Sees Fit! I will try to put in a good word, as I have enjoyed and benefitted from your company. Bill

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