Aquaponics Digest - Wed 04/25/01
Message 1: Re: Unlinking Systems - Biodigestor construction
from "Meir Leshem"
Message 2: Unlinking Systems - Biodigestor construction
from
Message 3: RE: Greenhouses
from "Carlos Arano"
Message 4: RE: Greenhouses
from "Carlos Arano"
Message 5: RE: Greenhouses
from "Carlos Arano"
Message 6: RE: Greenhouses
from "Carlos Arano"
Message 7: Re: Unlinking Systems - Biodigestor construction
from "Juan C. Bobeda"
Message 8: Kudzu Compost Grows 26 ft tall tomatoe plant
from "TGTX"
Message 9: Re: Unlinking Systems
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 10: Re: Unlinking Systems
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 11: RE: Kudzu Compost Grows 26 ft tall tomatoe plant
from "billevans"
| Message 1
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems - Biodigestor construction
From: "Meir Leshem"
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:30:56 +0200
Adriana
Can you post sites where Ican find instruction to constract a Biodigester
for biofertilizer.
thanks
meir
-----------------------------------------------------
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----- Original Message -----
From: Adriana Gutierrez
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems - Biodigestor construction
> Juan,
>
> Simple biodigesters don't completely digest the manures, leaving some
> residual slurries. Complete, or multi-phase digesters provide
> complete disgestion leaving biofertilizer. Most of the simple
> biodigesters in the literature are intended for gas production rather
> than biofertilizer production. Even so, a multi-phase digester is
> not too expensive either.
>
> Adriana
>
> > Building and operating a simple biodigestor isn't expensive or
> complicated
> > as you can find out at the following sites.
>
>
| Message 2
Subject: Unlinking Systems - Biodigestor construction
From:
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:50:08 +0200
Hi,
Ran a search on Google, came up with this site
http://gate.gtz.de/isat/default.asp?dis=/biogas/appldev/design/parts.html&tit=AT%20Information%20-%20Biogas%20Digest%3A%20Parts%20of%20Plants&nav=1
. I found it to be quite educational, especially around the construction of
dome-type biodigestors. Unfortunately, these are all single stage biodigestors.
I remember seeing a schematic of a seven stage biodigestor some time back, but I
haven't found it again. I will keep on looking.
Craig
| Message 3
Subject: RE: Greenhouses
From: "Carlos Arano"
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:39:04 -0300
Adriana:
I'm sending to you, out to the list, .zip heavy copies of the three
pages of my actual book (in progress). I feel you will be able to post them
in English but I don't know how you will do to post the drawings I made for
my book. As you can see, they are fundamentals to understand the concept.
I hope you will find the way to do it.
Regards,
Carlos
----- Original Message -----
From: Adriana Gutierrez
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: Greenhouses
> Carlos,
> I would love to hear more about Mohapatra's greenhouses. I'm sure
> others on the list will be too. If you want to e-mail them to me in
> Spanish I will translate it and post it to the list for you.
>
> Adriana
>
>
> > Dear Adriana:
> > If you still don't a greenhouse, do you know about Mohapatra's
> mini
> > greenhouses ? They are easy to build and very creap. Also, you will
> be able
> > to modify them to your requirements. I did it and they work.
> > If you don't know and you need more information, let me know.
> I'm
> > describing then, with the permission of Subhas Mohapatra, in my
> "ABC" in
> > Spanish.
>
>
>
| Message 4
Subject: RE: Greenhouses
From: "Carlos Arano"
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:40:28 -0300
Donna:
Please see my message to Adriana.
Carlos
----- Original Message -----
From: bennett
To:
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: Greenhouses
> I'd like to know about them!
> Donna
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carlos Arano
> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> Date: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:22 PM
> Subject: Greenhouses
>
>
> >Dear Adriana:
> > If you still don't a greenhouse, do you know about Mohapatra's mini
> >greenhouses ? They are easy to build and very creap. Also, you will be
able
> >to modify them to your requirements. I did it and they work.
> > If you don't know and you need more information, let me know. I'm
> >describing then, with the permission of Subhas Mohapatra, in my "ABC" in
> >Spanish.
> > Regards,
> >Carlos
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
| Message 5
Subject: RE: Greenhouses
From: "Carlos Arano"
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:41:32 -0300
Meir:
Please see my message to Adriana.
Carlos
----- Original Message -----
From: Meir Leshem
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: Greenhouses
> Carlos/Adriana
> Details of the Greenhouses will be appreciated.
> Meir
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Click here for Free Video!!
> http://www.gohip.com/free_video/
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Adriana Gutierrez
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:53 PM
> Subject: Re: Greenhouses
>
>
> > Carlos,
> > I would love to hear more about Mohapatra's greenhouses. I'm sure
> > others on the list will be too. If you want to e-mail them to me in
> > Spanish I will translate it and post it to the list for you.
> >
> > Adriana
> >
> >
> > > Dear Adriana:
> > > If you still don't a greenhouse, do you know about Mohapatra's
> > mini
> > > greenhouses ? They are easy to build and very creap. Also, you will
> > be able
> > > to modify them to your requirements. I did it and they work.
> > > If you don't know and you need more information, let me know.
> > I'm
> > > describing then, with the permission of Subhas Mohapatra, in my
> > "ABC" in
> > > Spanish.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
| Message 6
Subject: RE: Greenhouses
From: "Carlos Arano"
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:02:57 -0300
----- Original Message -----
From: Adriana Gutierrez
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: Greenhouses
> Carlos,
> I would love to hear more about Mohapatra's greenhouses. I'm sure
> others on the list will be too. If you want to e-mail them to me in
> Spanish I will translate it and post it to the list for you.
>
> Adriana
>
>
> > Dear Adriana:
> > If you still don't a greenhouse, do you know about Mohapatra's
> mini
> > greenhouses ? They are easy to build and very creap. Also, you will
> be able
> > to modify them to your requirements. I did it and they work.
> > If you don't know and you need more information, let me know.
> I'm
> > describing then, with the permission of Subhas Mohapatra, in my
> "ABC" in
> > Spanish.
>
>
>
| Message 7
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems - Biodigestor construction
From: "Juan C. Bobeda"
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:21:53 -0400
Hello Raul:
I was wondering what happened to you during the seminar, it was too
bad you didn't comment because I think your participation would have enriched
the very interesting discussions, specially since several participants
were experts in the field of anaerobic digestion.
The reason I sent the addresses for the biodigester manuals was simply
to demystify the subject of anaerobic digestion, and at the same time show
that it can be done at a low cost.
I agree that no anaerobic biodigester will completely digest normal
agricultural waste biomass. As you know, the most we can expect with a
anaerobic digester is around an 85% removal of BOD5. However, we can easily
mineralize most of the remaining unmineralized biomass if we use an extended
aeration tank. This aeration tank would only need a retention time of 6
to 24 hours, and since the volumes we are talking about are relatively
small, the cost will also be acceptable.
If you read Step 7 in Francisco Aguilar's manual, for a 10 meter long
(33 feet) biodigester treating 18 kilograms (40 pounds) of cow dung per
day, we only need to treat about 100 liters per day or some 27 gallons,
so a 55 gallon plastic barrel will work OK. To this tank we would only
need to add a small aeration device such as a small pump with a venturi
to reasonably finish the process.
I know you will tell me that you are using many more steps with your
method and I won't argue if your system treats the agricultural biomass
more completely, but please remember that we are talking about an aquaponic
system that Adriana thought should be unlinked and I agree with her.
All I am saying is that if before we send the fish tank effluent to
the gravel beds we first treat the dilute fish waste with a low cost anaerobic
digester such as an anaerobic filter, an Upflow Anaerobic Sludge Bed (USAB)
digester or an Anaerobic Biofilm Fluidized Bed Reactor (ABFBR), and then
we aerate the effluent 6 to 24 hours, we will obviously have a better mineralized
effluent than if we simply send the fish waste to a gravel grow bed such
as used in the S & S System. With this system we could also use other
feed to increase the volume of nutrients for our plants when we harvest
the fish or for any other reason.
If you visited the Ocean Arks page, you will see that they do exactly
the same thing using plants to remove almost all nutrients from wastewater.
As for the biogas, if you don't want to use it, simply burn it.
There is however a point where I don't agree with you and it is where
you say: "To use the biofertilizer produced by one of these biodigesters
in hydroponics, is not feasible, and will bring lots of problems for those
who try to do that. I would never advise someone to do so. ... snip
... But to use it in hydroponics, it is a great adventure, that certainly
will carry its user and others that talk with him, to a complete discredit
in biodigestion technology. It would be a very bad propaganda,
based in the poor knowledge of the actual technology of agricultural biodigestion."
Although I must recognize that I haven't tried this yet, I do recall
having read in Practical Hydroponics & Greenhouses some months ago
about a hydroponic grower that simply put fish waste in a tightly closed
tank and after a couple of months used this as his only nutrient in a gravel
bed flood and drain system. If I remember correctly, he has been doing
this for several years with excellent results.
Anyway, I am now in the process of designing and afterwards building
a small anaerobic digester followed by extended aeration to obtain an organic
nutrient solution for lettuce and tomato plants. The lettuce will be grown
in 9 six meter long NFT channels and the tomatoes will be grown in Autopots.
I will keep the list informed about my results and send photos and detailed
information to anyone interested at no cost.
Juan C. Bobeda
jcbobeda 'at' telesurf.com.py
Raul Vergueiro Martins wrote:
Hello Juan:
I have recently participated of a e-seminar about these biodigesters,
as you did too.
I made no comments during all the e-seminar, because, as I told to
Jackie Foo by that
time, all I wanted was to know about the stage of development of agricultural
biodigestion
practice at this momment.
What I can say here, is that those biodigesters are not sufficient
developed as to give us
a complete biodigested biomass.
The principle goal of those biodigesters, as the major part of them
around the world, is
the production of biogas, and not for the production of a high quality
biofertilizer (in
terms of complete biodigestion).
To use the biofertilizer produced by one of these biodigesters in hydroponics,
is not
feasible, and will bring lots of problems for those who try to do that.
I would never advise someone to do so.
As for the use of that biofertilizer in soil, it is a good practice,
as the final
decomposition will be carried in soil.
Even for the use of the biogas from such a biodigester, it will be
very dangerous, as it
is stocked in a poliethilene film bag.
In one of the manuals furnished during the e-seminar, we can see a
photo of large sized
bags with biogas, placed in the ceiling of a laboratory.
I would never make that. Imagine the ceiling of a laboratory,
completely covered with
biogas (and this means methane) filled bags, with people working under
them.
Where are the minimum concepts of safety?
If somebody wants to try the use of biofertilizer in soil, he can build
such a
biodigester. But to use it in hydroponics, it is a great
adventure, that certainly will
carry its user and others that talk with him, to a complete discredit
in biodigestion
technology. It would be a very bad propaganda, based in
the poor knowledge of the actual
technology of agricultural biodigestion.
I don't want to say here that the poliethilene biodigester doesn't
work. It works, and
very well, once you want small ammounts of biogas to be burned in a
small single fired
stove, and some incomplete digested biofertilizer.
Raul Vergueiro Martins
rvm 'at' sti.com.br
| Message 8
Subject: Kudzu Compost Grows 26 ft tall tomatoe plant
From: "TGTX"
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:50:28 -0500
Take some kudzu vine biomass, the scourge and nuisance plant of many areas
in the South USA. Compost it. Biodigest it. Anaerobically digest it, as you
wish.
Grow the most popular garden fruit, the "love apple" in that compost or
decomposition product. The tomato goes up and up, 26 feet high, like unto
Jack and the Bean Stalk.
This is anecdotal, possibly tabloid "news". Perhaps popular fad or modern
myth, or perhaps only correlation without proven cause and effect.
But....and this is a big but.... if cause and effect is there, then we
should try to explain it. And if cause and effect is there then we have
more evidence that complex organic molecules cross the root membrane, and if
that is the case, then same can carry plant nutrients.Hmmm.
Happy Joy.
Ted
| Message 9
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:55:06 -0500
At 11:05 PM 04/22/2001 +0100, Raul wrote (in part):
>You are right till a certain point. Nitrogen can react very rapidly and
can be
>transformed in compounds that dissolve and ionize in water, so being
immediatly used by
>plants.
>But the same doesn't happen with all the Calcium and with all the Magnesium.
>It is a common problem the Magnesium and Calcium deficiencies in plants
(specially with
>fruit plants like tomatoes), when using fish efluents.
>If you analyse the solution, these elements are there in good quantities,
but in forms
>that are not taken by plants.
>If you make a good analisys, you will generally find these elements as
organo-mineral
>compounds, that are dissolved but not ionized. They are in large chain
organic and
>organo-mineral compounds, that plants can't absorb.
>That is why in Aquaponic systems you produce very well the greens, but
fruits become a
>problem.
>I don't mean that you can't produce tomatoes, peppers or similar ones.
But for a large
>commercial production that would be a problem.
>Just for curiosity, Jim Rackocy in his system, corrects the pH of the water
with Calcium
>Hydroxide.
Raul, I'm not disagreeing with your statements -- I'd be overstepping my
knowledge to say that I can completely follow all the discussions. I'm
trying to understand what you're saying, but let me just ask -- if your
particular water and/or gravel has the components to correct the pH, does
that make a difference?
Raul said:
I agree with all you said here, but if you can avoid the discharge of the
solid part of
>the efluent into the gravel beds, it would provide you a cleaner bed. You
can even avoid
>the use of earthworms in the system to increase its efficiency.
>You can concentrate the solids in a closed anaerobic biodigester, and then
discharge the
>biofertilizer in the system.
>I am not saying that the aerobic biodigestion would not do the job, because
it will do it.
>
>But the anaerobic biodigestion can be carried in a more compact system,
more rapidly, with
>a larger efficiency, and wit les losses of nutrients, specially those
capable of forming
>volatile compounds like Nitrogen is.
>And if you consider a large commercial system, you can take advantage of
that small
>byproduct called biogas.
>Biogas means methane and CO2, and this means energy and carbonic fertilization.
I understand the benefits (energy production-wise) of biogas production, and
I can see that if you have hydroponic equipment that does not allow for most
any solids to pass without clogging, this would be of benefit. But other
than the energy by-product, is there a need to add another process to
monitor into a system that basically works by itself (I mean the gravel
growbed biofilter and the natural actions that take place there)?
I admit I've not had time to read your and Melvin Landers article in the new
Growing Edge, so perhaps I should study it more closely before asking.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
| Message 10
Subject: Re: Unlinking Systems
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:15:14 -0500
At 11:42 PM 04/22/2001 +0100, Raul wrote in part:
>From S&S Aqua Farm:
>> I can't say that we claim to "maintain an exquisite balance" in our system,
>> but we've found that most problems can be attributed to oversupply or
>> undersupply -- overfeeding at start-up, undersizing of the grow beds, or
>> less plant growth than is necessary for the size of fish stocked. Most of
>> these problems can be corrected by cycling the system with reduced input for
>> a few days, allowing the system to balance itself. And actually I can't say
>> that we can take credit for that -- allowing the natural systems time to
>> recover is the most intervention that's usually necessary. It's when we
>> overengineer (humans love to do this!) that we've seen problems.
Raul:
>I think that to accomplish this, we need a lot of skill from the system's
operator.
>For a high scale commercial unit, this would be a problem.
I still feel that it's not a matter of a "lot of skill" as much as
evaluation and common sense. In a "high scale commercial unit", I think
that a certain degree of skill or experience would be a requirement before
committing the amount of money that would entail.
>Protection in case of a system crash
I wrote:
>> As you know, the process in a gravel-based system is constantly composting.
>> The fish effluent pumped into the beds today is not what the plants are
>> uptaking, so even though the input side is "immediately affected", the
>> nutrient supply is not. Unless you have a long shut-down time of fresh
>> effluent being input, or if you completely stop watering the grow beds, the
>> one need not necessarily cause a system "crash".
Raul:
>In the case of some fish diseases, for insurance, you must shut down the
water flow to the
>plants, as you are undesr the risk of contaminating plants with microbes
that can be
>harmfull to humans.
>But, if you have an anaerobic biodigester, these microbes are destroyed during
>biodigestion and in a final sanitizing of the biofertilizer ( a normal
procedure), and you
>can continue feeding your plants, with a paralell feeding system.
But fish diseases, in most cases, are not developed in mid-stream, or at
least I believe that to be the case. Normal quarantine of new fish stocks,
buying from reputable suppliers, and maintaining water quality should
prevent this situation in the first place. We've certainly raised enough
ornamentals over the years to be aware of the problems that result from fish
diseases that require treatment that would harm the total system if it were
still interconnected, but we have not had any occurrences of these types of
problems in our aquaponics systems....only in our previous aquarium set-ups.
May I ask what specific diseases you refer to?
>
>> It is also possible for the plant side of an operation to
>> >crash - aphids or pest problems or a freeze or pump breakdown
>> >sometimes require a premature clearing of growing beds to eliminate a
>> >problem. An unscheduled reduction in plant volume will affect the
>> >filtration of the fish effluent and could affect the water quality and
>> >health of the fish.
>>
>> This can be the case, and would be most likely in a mono-crop situation. If
>> you have mixed crops (which we usually encourage), most insect problems
>> would not affect all of the multiple beds attached to one tank.
>
>But if you have a fish disease in a tank, all the beds attached to that
tank will be
>affected
>
>> Again, I'd like to suggest that the balance does not have to be as "fine" as
>> you might think. We've found the systems to be very forgiving in many cases
>> where our planning was not perfect.
>
>I agree with you here, but is this possible in large commercial units?
I guess I don't know precisely what you mean by large commercial units --
could you elaborate?
I wrote:
>> We encourage fish production, as you know, as a secondary product, with the
>> primary being the plants/produce grown on the other side, and don't ever
>> work to clear a system of fish at any time. If we do a mass harvest from a
>> specific tank, we generally will have enough fish in another to split and
>> still supply both systems.
Raul wrote:
>Here is a point that many newbies don't understand.
>We use fishes to produce our organic nutrient solution.
>There are situations where we must be clear.
>The first is the production of hydroponic "organic" plants, using fishes as
the producers
>of the "organic" nutrient solution. You sell plants, not fishes. Fishes
are no more
>than a byproduct.
>The second, is the production of fishes, using plants to clean the water
they live in.
>You sell fishes, not plants.
>And here, plants are no more than a byproduct.
>One thing I have seen in all Aquaponic systems. Your profits with plants
selling are
>much larger than the profits with fish selling.
I understand that you see the biodigester addition as a way to improve
profits in aquaponics. What we have always promoted is production using the
simplest, least costly methods. I suppose I am just finding it hard to
accept the inclusion of additional equipment, labor, monitoring, etc. as
being necessary.
>No, Paula. You don't need an experience in biodigesting systems.
>Biodigestion really incorporates a delicate sequence of activities, but
these activities
>are those normally encoutered in nature. We only put some order in those
activities, for
>them to be under our control. And we make this by means of a biodigester.
>Once you have a biodigester setted, your only work you will have is to feed
it, and
>operate it closing or shutting two or three valves. It takes no more than
half an hour a
>day to do this.
>
>Raul Vergueiro Martins
>rvm 'at' sti.com.br
Thank you, Raul for your input.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
| Message 11
Subject: RE: Kudzu Compost Grows 26 ft tall tomatoe plant
From: "billevans"
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:16:55 -0700
And if cause and effect is there then we have
more evidence that complex organic molecules cross the root membrane, and if
that is the case, then same can carry plant nutrients.Hmmm.
Happy Joy.
Ted
..
Your correct. the term/s regarding transport of complex "stuff" across cell
membranes
is called endo/exo cytosis. I've a great organic reference w/ many
electron micrographs , that shows this process.... One even shows iron
particles INSIDE the cell after only a few minutes exposure.,,, it aint just
ions anymore.
billevans
|
