Aquaponics Digest - Sat 06/02/01
Message 1: Re: BASIL
from "bennett"
Message 2: Re: Basil
from "gutierrez-lagatta"
Message 3: Re: affordable beds
from "gutierrez-lagatta"
Message 4: Product selection/Marketing
from "gutierrez-lagatta"
Message 5: Re: BASIL
from "gutierrez-lagatta"
Message 6: Re: BASIL
from "gutierrez-lagatta"
Message 7: Re: BASIL
from "TGTX"
Message 8: Re: apricots
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 9: Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
from "Stan Clayton"
Message 10: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 11: Re: Basil
from LC543119 'at' aol.com
Message 12: Re: Help anyone!!
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 13: Another thought on affordable beds. from "Arlos"
Message 14: Re: mushrooms
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 15: Re: Help anyone!!
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 16: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
from "Arlos"
Message 17: Re: BASIL
from "Claude Gelinas agr."
Message 18: Re: Aeration
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 19: RE: Temperature ranges
from "Charlie Shultz"
Message 20: Re: Temperature ranges
from "Arlos"
Message 21: Re: Aeration
from dreadlox 'at' cwjamaica.com
Message 22: RE: Aeration
from "billevans"
Message 23: Re: BASIL
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 24: RE: Pond Aerator Solutions
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 25: Re: Temperature ranges
from "TGTX"
Message 26: Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 27: Re: BASIL
from "gutierrez-lagatta"
Message 28: Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
from "TGTX"
Message 29: Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 30: RE: Pond Aerator Solutions
from "billevans"
Message 31: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 32: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
from "TGTX"
Message 33: Re: Help anyone!!
from RalphMcl 'at' aol.com
Message 34: Re: Help
from RalphMcl 'at' aol.com
Message 35: Re: BASIL
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 36: Re: BASIL
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 37: Fwd. milk and roses
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 38: Re: Proposed Organic Standards for Aquatic Animals
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 39: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
from "STEVE SPRING"
| Message 1
Subject: Re: BASIL
From: "bennett"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 01:38:38 -0400
>Well, mature to some botanical minds might mean going to seed
.you can
>easily start harvesting basil in 28 to 35 days and continue to cut the tops
>for continuous harvest, racing against the flowering phase, and still
>harvest even while it is flowering. Basil went absolutely crazy in my
>system during the warm months. Just nuts. Out of control
I couldn't
>sell it all. I think the market was saturated, but people loved it
I
There are soooo many varieties of basil available in some of the catalogs!
Please recommend one or a few good varieties.
I live in Ohio and have a small greenhouse. Might I be able to grow basil
year-round?
Donna
| Message 2
Subject: Re: Basil
From: "gutierrez-lagatta"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 04:31:15 -0500
http://montepkg.com/index.asp
> Thanks for the info but I cant find a web site for Monte Packaging,
You
> wouldn't know the address by any chance.
| Message 3
Subject: Re: affordable beds
From: "gutierrez-lagatta"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 04:51:33 -0500
Steven,
These have a nice design, especially with the built-in rack. However,
I would check with the manufacturer of this trough to see if it can
support the weight of gravel + water which would be considerably
heavier than dry animal feed. If you find out, please let us know.
Adriana
> > I looked for some animal troughs that might be suitable
> > for use as growbeds. I found the Long Feed Trough shown
> > here:
> > http://rubberlineinc.com/FEEDERS.htm
| Message 4
Subject: Product selection/Marketing
From: "gutierrez-lagatta"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 05:09:42 -0500
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Katy and Donna,
One thing is growing and another is selling. If you don't want to make =
a huge investment in large greenhouses, walk-in coolers, delivery =
trucks, etc. so that you can supply the needs of a large grocery chain, =
which might imply butting heads with established companies, I would go =
with something that you can sell locally, just to get started. Once you =
get experienced at growing and selling you can expand either vertically =
to other geographic markets or horizontally to other crops.
Given that we presume you are going to stay local I would suggest that =
you look into herbs, lettuces and tomatoes. I all depends on who is =
growing and selling what in your area. This requires some basic market =
research, calling restaurants, supermarket produce buyers and produce =
distributors. If somebody already has an established herb growing =
business but nobody is supplying locally grown hydroponic lettuces or =
tomatoes, you might go with one of those. If buyers are unhappy with the =
wuality of a particular product, you might concentrate on that. When I =
lived in Sarasota somebody was ahead of me setting up a hydro herb =
business, so I got started growing mesclun salad mix and specialty =
greens. I learned a lot and actually made some money, but not as much =
as I would like. Now that I'm in Birmingham, nobody is supplying =
locally grown herbs so I am going that route as the mesclun arena is =
very labor intensive and has a limited market due to the availability of =
fairly high quality mesclun from California for under $3.00/#.
If you have the right market, mono-cropping, producing one crop in large =
quantities, is a possibility. There is a business in Florida which has =
40,000 sq ft of arugula greenhouses. There is one in Texas which =
supplies chives to Houston, Denver and one other large city.
It's ALL about marketing. Once you get the basics down, ANYBODY CAN =
GROW STUFF. The key to success is selling it. You might want to check =
out Selling What You Sow by Eric Gibson and Selling and Marketing Fresh =
Cut Herbs, by Sandie Shores.
Adriana
Kevin Katy, what I advise my clients to do is to start with a =
hydroponic=20
system and learn all its ins and outs then when you are comfortable =
with the=20
hydroponics then I would venture into aquaponics , if you need to =
make a=20
living from your venture hydroponics is much more profitable=20
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Katy =
and=20
Donna,
One thing is growing and another is =
selling. =20
If you don't want to make a huge investment in large greenhouses, =
walk-in=20
coolers, delivery trucks, etc. so that you can supply the needs of =
a large=20
grocery chain, which might imply butting heads with established =
companies, I=20
would go with something that you can sell locally, just to get =
started. =20
Once you get experienced at growing and selling you can expand either =
vertically=20
to other geographic markets or horizontally to other crops.
Given that we presume you are going to =
stay local I=20
would suggest that you look into herbs, lettuces and tomatoes. I =
all=20
depends on who is growing and selling what in your area. =
This=20
requires some basic market research, calling restaurants, =
supermarket=20
produce buyers and produce distributors. If somebody =
already=20
has an established herb growing business but nobody is supplying locally =
grown=20
hydroponic lettuces or tomatoes, you might go with one of those. If =
buyers=20
are unhappy with the wuality of a particular product, you might =
concentrate=20
on that. When I lived in Sarasota somebody was ahead =
of me=20
setting up a hydro herb business, so I got started growing mesclun salad =
mix and=20
specialty greens. I learned a lot and actually made some money, =
but not as=20
much as I would like. Now that I'm in Birmingham, nobody is =
supplying=20
locally grown herbs so I am going that route as the mesclun arena =
is very=20
labor intensive and has a limited market due to the availability of =
fairly high=20
quality mesclun from California for under $3.00/#.
If you have the right market, =
mono-cropping,=20
producing one crop in large quantities, is a possibility. There is =
a=20
business in Florida which has 40,000 sq ft of arugula greenhouses. =
There=20
is one in Texas which supplies chives to Houston, Denver and one other =
large=20
city.
It's ALL about marketing. Once =
you get the=20
basics down, ANYBODY CAN GROW STUFF. The key to success is selling =
it. You might want to check out Selling What You Sow by Eric =
Gibson and=20
Selling and Marketing Fresh Cut Herbs, by Sandie Shores.
Adriana
Kevin Katy, what I advise =
my clients to=20
do is to start with a hydroponic
system and learn all its ins =
and outs=20
then when you are comfortable with the
hydroponics then I would =
venture=20
into aquaponics , if you need to make a
living from your venture =
hydroponics is much more profitable=20
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| Message 5
Subject: Re: BASIL
From: "gutierrez-lagatta"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 05:14:46 -0500
Thanks Claude for explaining the varous causes of basil black spot.
Do you know if there is a treatment for psedomonass bacteria,
corynespora fungus or the foliar nematodes that you mentioned?
> On basil large black spot are caused by pseudomonass bacteria. they
produce
> large black spot very fast
> smaller black spot are caused by corynespora fungus or simply by
potassium
> deficiency.
> In some country foliar nematode are a serious problem and produce
small black
> spot that enlarge very fast
Adriana
| Message 6
Subject: Re: BASIL
From: "gutierrez-lagatta"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 05:59:47 -0500
If I could only grow one variety of basil it would be Johnny's
Selected seeds genovese Basil. If you have room for a couple of
others I would add a few plants of thai basil, purple ruffles, Mrs.
Burns Lemon Basil and Cinnamon Basil. Yes, you should be able to grow
basil year-round in tyour greenhouse if it is stays warm enough.
> There are soooo many varieties of basil available in some of the
catalogs!
> Please recommend one or a few good varieties.
> I live in Ohio and have a small greenhouse. Might I be able to grow
basil
> year-round?
| Message 7
Subject: Re: BASIL
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 08:23:04 -0500
> If I could only grow one variety of basil it would be Johnny's
> Selected seeds genovese Basil.
I totally agree with A.G. on that count. And here is why: The appearance,
the aromatic strength, the vigorous growth, and the strength of the leaf
tissue both during and after harvest of the Genovese Basil are superior,
compared with the Italian Large Leaf variety, in my opinion. Genovese
variety is the quintessential pesto type, it comes right from Italy. Large,
dark structurally robust leaves are about 2 inches long. My choice above
all others. Italian Large Leaf variety tends to be more fragile, frail,
membranous almost, it seems.
Don't let your greenhouse get too cool at night. If you are dancing around
55-50 degrees F at night you are dancing around risk for Basil. Not that
they will 100% die at that temperature, but you may find an increased
incidence of the black necrotic spots.
I attribute this in part to condensation on the leaves that stand there in
dew beads on the leaf and at those micro-spots of tissue wilting, come
opportunistic pathogens into the damaged tissue points, such as the
psuedomonas, etc. mentioned earlier. Best to prevent these conditions in
the first place, rather than to react to the disease conditions with some
kind of spray, in my opinion. At cooler temps, the leaves are subject to
the tissue damage. It is just a fact of plant physiology and ultrastructure
for the poor old basil plant genome. In fact, you will find that basil may
not hold up as well after harvest and packaging, in walk-in cooler
temperatures that are set too low at the restaurant, whereas a salad greens
mix will do just fine in terms of shelf life, at the same low temperature.
Be aware of that. Usually the chefs are aware of that.
Think about what the market will carry before you decide to plant 100% of
your greenhouse in basil. Depending on the size of your operation, the
local demand for basil versus some other crop types, the time and labor you
can afford to put into packaging the basil, and the lucky breaks you get
with the right connections to the right buyers (will the same buyers always
buy every bit of it, or will you have lots of competitors selling the same
thing??), you may consider the options of planting some basil and some salad
greens. I sold a lot of salad greens.
I sold over 200 lbs of custom mixed, washed salad greens a week, at
prices averaging about
.$4.00 to $6.00/lb
.in both bulk and serving sized
packages. 40% of my sales was bulk salad greens in cardboard boxes lined
with a plastic bag, at $4.00/lb, mostly to large chain grocery stores. 35%of
sales were 7oz salads in plastic clamshells averaging $5.80/lb. I also sold
8oz bags of salad greens at an average of $5.46/lb, to health food stores,
etc
My basil went for $6.00/lb, but was only about 5% of my sales. I also
sold a smattering of Rainbow Chard
.Giant Rainbow Chard leaves to haute
cuisine chefs, mostly, who liked it for garnishing up the main dish
.plate
presentation, and all that fancy schmancy stuff.
Hope this helps.
Ted
| Message 8
Subject: Re: apricots
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:37:38 -0500 (CDT)
Adriana Yes I mean espallier. I forgot to mention that you
should not use the standard size of apricots next to your house they get
to big.But if you use any dwarfed stock in your planting you will love
the results.
Bruce
| Message 9
Subject: Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
From: "Stan Clayton"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 07:43:59 -0700
"Glen E. Morrow wrote:
> I would argue profusely with the statement " Water receives oxygen
.> never from aeration bubbles" --snip
in response to.
Bruce Schreiber writing:
> Mike Water receives oxygen by surface contact movement at the pond or
> tank surface and never from aeration
. --snip--
I didn't mean to start an argument over aeration systems when I suggested
that Mike from Jamaica try an inexpensive bubble aerator. The EPA is widely
recognized as THE experts on bubble aeration as this is the prevalent
technique used in municipal water treatment centers. Their research shows
that MOST oxygen transfer (better than 90%) occurs as surface gas transfer,
and that less than 10% is from the bubbles themselves.
This is almost certainly the case with the Oase Pond-Air 30
(http://www.plumbingsupply.com/oaseair.html) that I recommended to Mike,
since it injects just 30 gph of air into the water -- hardly enough to
aerate a large tank with high fish density. What is does do is draw water
from near the bottom up to the top, where it can undergo surface gas
transfer.
All other things being equal (and when are they
.? ;), gas transfer is
primarily a function of exposed surface area. And that is where a bubble
aerator has the advantage over paddle aerators (and other surface agitators)
in still ponds greater than 18" deep. The column of bubbles creates a
vertical current of water that continuously exposes oxygen-poor bottom water
to the surface for gas transfer -- effectively increasing the surface to
volume ratio. The transfer from the bubbles that does occur is a nice
bonus.
This same phenomenon is what makes the "shower head" return line so
effective in the S&S system. By forcing the water to form small droplets
that draw air into the fish tank, the effective surface area of the tank is
dramatically increased, which increases the amount of oxygen that can
transfer into the fish tank -- thereby allowing us to stock higher densities
of fish
. ;)
Viola, virtuous circle
.! :^)
Stan
| Message 10
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:52:51 -0500 (CDT)
Mark The air bubbles from an aireator contribute very little to the
oxygen content of the water directly.Instead they help to cause an up
swelling of water from lower in the tank to the water surface were the
REAL OXYGEN EXCHANGE takes place. Any way that you can circulate water
up to the surface works as good as air driven
Bruce
| Message 11
Subject: Re: Basil
From: LC543119 'at' aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:53:52 EDT
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Donna, it all depends on your market you must check with your produce
managers in your area and see what is in short supply and what is been used
in the market place, I find that herbs and lettuce are the best for quick
profits ,Gordon
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Donna, it all depends on your market you must
check with your produce
managers in your area and see what is in short supply and what is been used
in the market place, I find that herbs and lettuce are the best for quick
profits ,Gordon
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| Message 12
Subject: Re: Help anyone!!
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:08:15 -0500 (CDT)
Ralph It sounds like shipping shock.While transporting in the bags you
can get wide swings in conditions low Oxygen,high Ammonia, Temp.swings
etc. especially when cramming to many in one bag occurs. The survivors
are then more susceptible to bugs in your system.How do they look now?
Bruce
| Message 13
Subject: Another thought on affordable beds.From: "Arlos"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 08:06:58 -0700
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To those looking to keep the profile smaller than an Olympic pool =
consider horizontally ripping (with a saw of course) large diameter =
schedule 40 PVC Pipe ( actually SDR [side dimension ratio] 11 would =
work in the application here). Appropriate to task of supporting bedding =
material I.e.; gravel, ceramic foam or sintered glass plus water might =
be ADS or NDS pipe which is quite inexpensive and has an interior smooth =
wall with external ribs. When you look at a per foot cost and then the =
cost becomes half when you've cut the pipe horizontally. ADS and NDS are =
made from HDPE (high density polyethylene). PVC fittings can be likewise =
horizontally split and glued to create corners and tees to fabricate =
rows. Since both ADS and NDS pipe have O rings, joints would have to be =
sealed with a solvent appropriate to aquaculture use as many flexible =
adhesives are leaching and toxic to fish (an aquarium grade silicon =
would bond to ADS and NDS.
In flowing water, round is good, square is bad as it disrupts flow =
characteristics and causes a pump to work overtime. In calculating pump =
choice; volume, head (elevation and length) plus bends which in small =
diameter pipe are considered 1 vertical ft in additional lift.
FYI, all pipe manufactures and the IAPMO code book has engineered =
support criteria for horizontal runs of pipe which apples to the =
application in here.
In my work, life cycle engineering is an important factor in designing =
a system. If I were going to build an aquaponics to last less than a =
year I might consider some of the less expensive solutions. If a system =
is to last several years without spending time chasing leaks, the above =
solution may work out. Just a suggestion
Its great to read the daily international posts in here. to bad =
governments can't work with this level of cooperation. Perhaps heads of =
large multinational and world leaders should farm at home with the S&S =
method and then they'd have a refreshed view of world issues.
Good Hunting,
Arlos
Blue Lotus Aquatics
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To those looking to keep the profile smaller than an =
Olympic=20
pool consider horizontally ripping (with a saw of course) large diameter =
schedule 40 PVC Pipe ( actually SDR [side dimension ratio] 11 =
would work=20
in the application here). Appropriate to task of supporting bedding =
material=20
I.e.; gravel, ceramic foam or sintered glass plus water might be ADS or =
NDS pipe=20
which is quite inexpensive and has an interior smooth wall with external =
ribs.=20
When you look at a per foot cost and then the cost becomes half when =
you've cut=20
the pipe horizontally. ADS and NDS are made from HDPE (high density=20
polyethylene). PVC fittings can be likewise horizontally split and glued =
to=20
create corners and tees to fabricate rows. Since both ADS and NDS pipe =
have O=20
rings, joints would have to be sealed with a solvent appropriate to =
aquaculture=20
use as many flexible adhesives are leaching and toxic to fish (an =
aquarium grade=20
silicon would bond to ADS and NDS.
In flowing water, round is good, square =
is bad as=20
it disrupts flow characteristics and causes a pump to work overtime. In=20
calculating pump choice; volume, head (elevation and length) plus bends =
which=20
in small diameter pipe are considered 1 vertical ft in additional=20
lift.
FYI, all pipe manufactures and the IAPMO code =
book has=20
engineered support criteria for horizontal runs of pipe which apples to =
the=20
application in here.
In my work, life cycle engineering is an =
important=20
factor in designing a system. If I were going to build an aquaponics to =
last=20
less than a year I might consider some of the less expensive solutions. =
If a=20
system is to last several years without spending time chasing leaks, the =
above=20
solution may work out. Just a suggestion
Its great to read the daily international =
posts in=20
here. to bad governments can't work with this level of cooperation. =
Perhaps=20
heads of large multinational and world leaders should farm at home with =
the=20
S&S method and then they'd have a refreshed view of world=20
issues.
Good Hunting,
Arlos
Blue Lotus Aquatics
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| Message 14
Subject: Re: mushrooms
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:33:22 -0500 (CDT)
Carlos Any information that I ever receive from you will be treated
with the highest regard . Its to bad we live so far apart because I
think that I could learn a lot with your guidance
Bruce
| Message 15
Subject: Re: Help anyone!!
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:44:32 -0500 (CDT)
I know it will sound strange but if the koi are much larger than the
catfish and they have been in the system for a while they can be
aggressive to new additions to the tank .This happens with goldfish and
other carp besides koi so just a thought that you should consider.
Bruce
| Message 16
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
From: "Arlos"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 09:18:51 -0700
Bruce,
Not to split hairs or create an endless string on the subject but
diffusion of gas through plate diffusers and especially regenerative blowers
work just fine. I work at the Monterey Bay Aquarium / Stanford
Universities' Tuna Research and Conservation Center )TRCC) where we have 4
large aeration towers supported by recirculation systems and regenerative
blowers that when measured at the influent of each holding tank have
readings of 100-107% of DO. This provides a 100% distribution of DO through
out the water column in high stocking densities of both blue and yellow fin
tuna which have extremely high metabolic rates. Though surface transfer of
gas is not to be argued. You can't beat spray bars either in the right
application.Sub surface systems for aquaculture and waste treatment have
more than enough data to support their continued use. It boils down to the
cost of gas transference being the core of the issue. O&M costs drive the
design process.
Bringing science and engineering to the subject of aquaponics will help
everyone make a more qualified choice as to the appropriately applied level
of technology.
Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Schreiber
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Date: Saturday, June 02, 2001 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
Mark The air bubbles from an aireator contribute very little to the
oxygen content of the water directly.Instead they help to cause an up
swelling of water from lower in the tank to the water surface were the
REAL OXYGEN EXCHANGE takes place. Any way that you can circulate water
up to the surface works as good as air driven
Bruce
| Message 17
Subject: Re: BASIL
From: "Claude Gelinas agr."
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:37:49 -0400
Le sam, 02 jun 2001, vous avez écrit :
> Thanks Claude for explaining the varous causes of basil black spot.
> Do you know if there is a treatment for psedomonass bacteria,
> corynespora fungus or the foliar nematodes that you mentioned?
>
For pseudomonas spot, copper fungicide are excellent but that problem is really
cultivar dependant. some cultivar are very sensitive to that disease and other
are résistant. I can't tel which one to chose but by experiance the large leaf
cultivar are more sensitive.
For nematode, avoid wetting the leaf or splashing water on them and it should
be enough. that problem is also cultivar dependant.
Corynespora can be controled with most fongicide available.
Claude Gélinas Agr., D.T.A. PHYTO
Ressources
========================================================================
Varennes, Québec, Canada Tél: (450) 652 9764 Fax : (450) 652 6182 Des
questions sur les insectes et maladies des plantes ornementales ?
Want to know more about ornamental plant pest ?
http://www.phyto.qc.ca
| Message 18
Subject: Re: Aeration
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:37:51 -0500 (CDT)
Mike the paddle wheel Aerator proves my point it moves water across the
surface efficiently.And it will not fool you into thinking that pumping
air into your water column under pressure is doing the job. You can
safely keep thousands more fish in a wide and long tank one foot deep
than you can in the same volume of water one foot square and hundreds or
thousands of feet deep where you can safely only keep one fish only
because of the greater surface exchange of the wider tank's surface
area
Bruce
| Message 19
Subject: RE: Temperature ranges
From: "Charlie Shultz"
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 17:06:37
Jim,
I agree with your temperature ranges for tilapia (28-31C optimal), but not
your temperature for fruit set on strawberries. We are currently "playing"
with some strawberries in our floating raft system at UVI. Water temps are
currently about 81F and we are actually getting our strawberry plants to set
fruit. I agree that a cooler climate may be suited for most varieties of
strawberries, but obviously there are cultivars that will set fruit above
low 60Fs.
What concerns us the most about temperature is the occurance of fungal
pathogens like Phytium. The fungus is notorious in hydroponic systems,
especially when temps increase above 75F. What we have noticed is an
outbreak of one species of Phytium (P. dissotocum) when temps rise above
75F. Next as temps increase to above 85F, we get nailed with P.
myriotylum(sp?). This species of Pythium will completely turn roots to mush
and can destroy a crop within days.
Therefore, temperature ranges are an area we are currently researching. In
most aquaponic systems, the plant component produces the majority of the
profits, roughly 75% may be from plant sales. The fish sales are minimal
compared to the plant revenue. (Although Steve S. may turn these numbers
around with his ornamental fish) Let me continue talking tilapia aquaponics
for now. To discourage the outbreak of Pythium here in the tropics we are
looking at two options:
1) Identify plant species resistant to these root fungus species at high
temps. Most of the lettuce varieties we've tested all are susceptable to a
degree to Pythium. So, during the past two summers we began looking at a
completely different crop. Although not replicated or analytically tested,
we saw great results with crops such as Okra, Cucumbers, Chives, Melons
(yes, lotsa Cruzian cantaloupes), and even flowers. I realize some farmers
need to keep a consistant product year round for their customers, but if it
is possible to switch to a more productive product in the summer then the
profits will follow.
2) If the producer wishes to continue production of say lettuce in the hot
summers months, we are looking into temperature regulation of our systems.
We have six replicated floating raft systems which are slated to conduct
temperature experiments this summer. We are attempting to chill the water
below 76F in an attempt to reduce damage from root fungus. Obviously now,
this takes us out of our optimum growing range for tilapia. Remember they
prefer 82-88F. We realize this will slow the growth of our fish component.
Also remember though, the plants are making most of our profits. In our
case then, we are choosing to provide optimum growing temps for our plants
rather than our fish.
Either way, your thoughs about temperature compatablity between your plants
and fish are valid.
Not only should you consider temp ranges for your plants and fish. You also
have to keep in mind that your nitrifiers (good bacteria) also need to be
within a certain range to provide consistant and effective conversion of
ammonia and nitirites. Unfortunately, I don't have any of my text books
available here, so maybe Tejas Ted can chime in with optimum temp for
nitrification. Ted, maybe you can also enlighten us on the optimum temps
for mineralization??? Sorry to put you on the spot, but you are the man
(just let us know when the book is available).
Finally Jim, you are also going to have to compromise optimum ranges for pH
levels as well. Most hydroponic plants enjoy a pH in the 5.5-6.5 range
while tilapia prefer pH of closer to 8. Nitrifiers also come into play, so
we compromise for all life and keep a pH close to 7 in our aquaponic
systems.
Hope some of this helps,
Charlie
St. Croix, USVI
PS - any other comments? ideas?
<<>>>
Here's my concern: If, for example, you grow Tilapia which have a ideal
temp range in 80s(F), if you try to grow strawberries, the plants are
likely to thrive but there'll be no fruit because the blossoms require, I
think, low 60s to set. I realize I'm talking air temp and water temp but
I'm assuming that if water is moving constantly between tank and beds all
the time those temps are going to be pretty close.
So that would mean, I think, that the plants you grow have to matched
somewhat to the temps the particular fish like.
Comments? Ideas?
Thanks,
Jim
| Message 20
Subject: Re: Temperature ranges
From: "Arlos"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:18:54 -0700
Charlie,
I live about 5 miles north of Watsonville, CA where the overwhelming
amount of the US domestic market strawberries are grown. There are a few
hydroponic operations and I will try and get them to post here. They should
be a good source of experience.
Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie Shultz
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Date: Saturday, June 02, 2001 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Temperature ranges
>Jim,
>
>I agree with your temperature ranges for tilapia (28-31C optimal), but not
>your temperature for fruit set on strawberries. We are currently "playing"
>with some strawberries in our floating raft system at UVI. Water temps are
>currently about 81F and we are actually getting our strawberry plants to
set
>fruit. I agree that a cooler climate may be suited for most varieties of
>strawberries, but obviously there are cultivars that will set fruit above
>low 60Fs.
>
>What concerns us the most about temperature is the occurance of fungal
>pathogens like Phytium. The fungus is notorious in hydroponic systems,
>especially when temps increase above 75F. What we have noticed is an
>outbreak of one species of Phytium (P. dissotocum) when temps rise above
>75F. Next as temps increase to above 85F, we get nailed with P.
>myriotylum(sp?). This species of Pythium will completely turn roots to
mush
>and can destroy a crop within days.
>
>Therefore, temperature ranges are an area we are currently researching. In
>most aquaponic systems, the plant component produces the majority of the
>profits, roughly 75% may be from plant sales. The fish sales are minimal
>compared to the plant revenue. (Although Steve S. may turn these numbers
>around with his ornamental fish) Let me continue talking tilapia
aquaponics
>for now. To discourage the outbreak of Pythium here in the tropics we are
>looking at two options:
>
>1) Identify plant species resistant to these root fungus species at high
>temps. Most of the lettuce varieties we've tested all are susceptable to a
>degree to Pythium. So, during the past two summers we began looking at a
>completely different crop. Although not replicated or analytically tested,
>we saw great results with crops such as Okra, Cucumbers, Chives, Melons
>(yes, lotsa Cruzian cantaloupes), and even flowers. I realize some farmers
>need to keep a consistant product year round for their customers, but if it
>is possible to switch to a more productive product in the summer then the
>profits will follow.
>
>2) If the producer wishes to continue production of say lettuce in the hot
>summers months, we are looking into temperature regulation of our systems.
>We have six replicated floating raft systems which are slated to conduct
>temperature experiments this summer. We are attempting to chill the water
>below 76F in an attempt to reduce damage from root fungus. Obviously now,
>this takes us out of our optimum growing range for tilapia. Remember they
>prefer 82-88F. We realize this will slow the growth of our fish component.
>Also remember though, the plants are making most of our profits. In our
>case then, we are choosing to provide optimum growing temps for our plants
>rather than our fish.
>
>Either way, your thoughs about temperature compatablity between your plants
>and fish are valid.
>
>Not only should you consider temp ranges for your plants and fish. You
also
>have to keep in mind that your nitrifiers (good bacteria) also need to be
>within a certain range to provide consistant and effective conversion of
>ammonia and nitirites. Unfortunately, I don't have any of my text books
>available here, so maybe Tejas Ted can chime in with optimum temp for
>nitrification. Ted, maybe you can also enlighten us on the optimum temps
>for mineralization??? Sorry to put you on the spot, but you are the man
>(just let us know when the book is available).
>
>Finally Jim, you are also going to have to compromise optimum ranges for pH
>levels as well. Most hydroponic plants enjoy a pH in the 5.5-6.5 range
>while tilapia prefer pH of closer to 8. Nitrifiers also come into play, so
>we compromise for all life and keep a pH close to 7 in our aquaponic
>systems.
>
>Hope some of this helps,
>Charlie
>St. Croix, USVI
>
>PS - any other comments? ideas?
>
><<>>>
>
>Here's my concern: If, for example, you grow Tilapia which have a ideal
>temp range in 80s(F), if you try to grow strawberries, the plants are
>likely to thrive but there'll be no fruit because the blossoms require, I
>think, low 60s to set. I realize I'm talking air temp and water temp but
>I'm assuming that if water is moving constantly between tank and beds all
>the time those temps are going to be pretty close.
>
>So that would mean, I think, that the plants you grow have to matched
>somewhat to the temps the particular fish like.
>
>Comments? Ideas?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jim
>
>
>
__________________
>
>
>
| Message 21
Subject: Re: Aeration
From: dreadlox 'at' cwjamaica.com
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 12:47:52 -0700
Thanks Bruce,
I have never said out loud but Im learning to speak out what I think in
terms of praise
.I think your posts are very very good,and I learn a
lot from them each time. They keep me coming back for more
.:>
Stan too wrote a great piece
.showing the "flip" side!!
WE are all on the same boat I think, just saying the same thing
differently. I understand what you are saying re the surface area, and
being a techie, why it is that the bubble stream causes a greater
exposure surface! One group is so focussed on bubbles being good that
the might forego seeing that even a SUBMERGED bubble is actually a
little "bomb" that will hurtle a lot of water in the air at the
surface, and like Stan said U get the effect of gas exchange as a bonus
as the bubble rises.
The "bubble" guys are saying that you (Bruce) shouldnt say it doesnt
work because it does
. and I think they are so incensed by the initial
thought, that they oversee that the bubbles
.bubbling say through a 4
foot pond cause an immense surface area.
You both are right
. I had a document that shows somewhere guys that
paddle wheels are about the most efficient open pond method of
oxygenation
. that exclude high tech oxygen injection and oxygen cones
etc. So guys, Bruce is right
. paddle whells for as clumsy and banal a
jod as they do
. they are still tops because the not only sling the
water in the air
they also cause a pond circulation that is good for
the water volume mixing.
Do we realise that our lungs alone have a surface area of maybe a few
ACRES??
Good stuff guys.
Right now I am dissapointed by the responses on other groups (solar,
microhydro, wind) re buffering air in tanks
maybe I need to work on a
wind driven aerator
. that CAN buffer
. hmm, a battery powered
compressor thingee that compresses air via a windmill powered generator
jig
using (battery) electricity instead of wind as the "storage"
device
.OR
. some old tanks holding compressed air to bubble in the
ponds
I have a file that was sent to me a while back
.that explains how to
calculate oxygen transfers etc
and all the math and tables. If someone
needs this I am willing to send it to you.
Just pop me a mail OFFLIST please
Have a blessed weekend all
. it could be worse
.!!
:)
Mike
JAMAICA.
Bruce Schreiber wrote:
>
> Mike the paddle wheel Aerator proves my point it moves water across the
> surface efficiently.And it will not fool you into thinking that pumping
> air into your water column under pressure is doing the job.
| Message 22
Subject: RE: Aeration
From: "billevans"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:37:49 -0700
by moving new volumes of water to the surface, the water is able to
give off gasses other than O2, thus being more accepting for increased DO
levels.
bille
just my own personal opnion
| Message 23
Subject: Re: BASIL
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:56:56 -0500 (CDT)
Margi Its hard to say what you might have on your plants .The reason is
the plant diseases in Africa are likely to be far different than here in
the US. But its likely to be fungal in nature so if you go to your
garden center and bring a sample see if you can get some thing Anti
fungal and ask a lot of questions .
I once saw in the National Geographic magazine about 35 years ago
that along the Zambezi river lived a giant earth worm that grew to about
6 feet in length that the natives cut up into steaks about six inches
across and cooked. Do they still exist? If you could get some now that
would be a worm bed worth having.
Bruce
| Message 24
Subject: RE: Pond Aerator Solutions
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:12:20 -0500 (CDT)
Glen The air injection method used to Aerate Aquarium systems works
by creating an up flow of water from the tank bottom to the surface for
air exchange. The the air bubbles being lighter than water push the
water before them to the surface and contribute little of them selfs to
the actual usable oxygen content of the water .This method is not in use
as much as it one was in single tanks due to the frequent need to
replace bubble diffusers and pump diaphragms often causing die offs. I
know that it does not look like it works in the way that way i am
telling you but I am shure of my facts!
Having said that I must tell you that I own 2 air systems. A 1/2 and
3/4 horse and kept A 3000 gal. Tropical fish hatchery going strong with
hundreds of tanks and they work fine but not in the way that you have
believed. WE USE AIR TO PUMP WATER to the surface
Bruce
| Message 25
Subject: Re: Temperature ranges
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:14:30 -0500
> Not only should you consider temp ranges for your plants and fish. You
also
> have to keep in mind that your nitrifiers (good bacteria) also need to be
> within a certain range to provide consistant and effective conversion of
> ammonia and nitirites. Unfortunately, I don't have any of my text books
> available here, so maybe Tejas Ted can chime in with optimum temp for
> nitrification. Ted, maybe you can also enlighten us on the optimum temps
> for mineralization??? Sorry to put you on the spot, but you are the man
> (just let us know when the book is available).
Hey Charlie.
Paraphrasing Wheaton, Hochheimer, and Kaiser here
we know that
temperature affects bacterial growth RATES probably more than any other
variable. In an aquaponic system, the temperature at which a nitrifying
biofilter operates is usually determined by the needs of the fish or other
aquacultured animal crop, not by the nitrifying bacteria's needs. When
oxygen and micro-nutrients, pH, etc, is all sufficient and optimal, the
growth limiting substance for Nitrosomonas is ammonium and for Nitrobacter
is nitrite. Since nitrification proceeds from ammonia oxidation to nitrite
oxidation, and since Nitrobacter grows faster than Nitrosomonas, the overall
kinetics of nitrification is usually controlled by ammonia oxidation. The
Monod equation can describe the rate of ammonia oxidation and therefore the
overall kinetics of nitrification there is a negative feedback on the
specific growth of nitrififers per day when the substrate, that is ammonium,
is in excess, and that is why the presence of the plants is so beneficial
and in fact work well in tandem with the nitrifiers, because they are taking
up some of the inorganic nitrogen in all three substrate types (ammonia,
nitritie, and nitrate).
A study conducted by Brune and Gunther demonstrated that for a fixed inlet
ammonia concentration between 0.02 to 0.05 mg NH3-N/L, the ammonia removal
rate (oxidation rate to NO2) is higher at shorter filter detention times,
which is equivalent, in this case, to a higher flow rate through the filter.
At these rather low concentrations, 95 to 99% ammonia oxidation was acheived
with detention times as short as 3 minutes. The investigators claimed that
the increase in efficiency at low ammonia levels was due almost exclusively
to the increased bacterial biomass carried on there high surface area
biofilter media (polyurethane). This media also allowed for the high
hydraulic loading rate needed to obtain such high rates of ammonia
oxidation. In this particular scenario, the experiment supported the notion
that the nitrifier growth rate and the nitrification rate were not functions
of the concentration of the liminting substrate (NH3), but were, in macro
performance results, based on the mass load of the limiting substrate. Mass
load = Q x C where Q is flow rate through the filter, and C is the
concentration of the limiting substrate. This principle has been applied to
NH3 concentrations as high as 10mg/L.
There can be a negative feedback by substrate abundance, but also, I
believe, in by product abundance. Imagine that you are a Nitrobacter and in
this thought experiment you are taking a pile of bricks (nitrite) and you
are throwing them onto a pile of another bricks
.in mid air, the nitrite
brick turns into a nitrate brick, but the rule is that you have to toss the
brick on to the very top of the brick pile
here is what I mean
Back in October 2000, I posted this:
"I believe that as the nitrate is taken up by plants, the nitrifiers have an
easier job of converting ammonia to nitrite and then nitrite to nitrate. I
use the analogy of a guy moving bricks from one pile to another pile. Assume
that the rule is that you must throw the nitrite brick to the top of the
pile of the nitrate bricks. The higher and higher the pile of nitrate
bricks, the harder and harder it gets to reduce the nitrite brick pile in
size and height. (this is a very crude example or analogy of how
accumulation of metabolic by products can inhibit the enzyme kinetics in
microbes) Same analogy can be used with the ammonia to nitrite conversion
process. The aquaponics scenario is more complex than this, however, since
plants can assimilate all 3 forms of inorganic nitrogen. Oh, well, I
tried."
Estimates for maximum growth rates of Nitrosomas have been found
experimentally, but there is some range among various investigators.
Nitrosomonas at 30C will grow at about double the growth rate that it does
at 20C, and at 20C it will grow at about double the daily growth rate that
it does at 10C. This rule of thumb applies to many different types of
microorganisms, and some folks call it the Q10 rule, or the like. A very
common "optimum" temperature range reported for Nitrosomonas is 30-35C, and
about the same for Nitrobacter. Srna and Baggaley studied the kinetics of
nitrification in seawater aquariums. They found a rise of 4C increased
ammonia and nitrite oxidation by 50% and 12%, respectively, and lowering the
temperature 1C slowed down the oxidation rate of ammonia by 30%, and a 1.5C
decrease reduced the rate of nitrite oxidation by 8%.
One thing to consider in biofilters based soley on nitrifying bacteria, is
to try to minimize light exposure. Light intensitiess less than 1% of
sunlight intensities
.only 200-300 lux, were found to be inhibitory (full
sunlight is about 100,000 Lux. Light is believed to oxidize cytochrome C in
both species of nitrifying bacteria. Nitrobacter is more sensitive to light
because it contains less cytochrome C than Nitrosomonas. So, if you are
thinking of putting your biofilter media in a translucent fiberglass tower,
for example, you might do better to wrap that rascal in black plastic and
cover the top loosely with same, as long as gas exchange can take place.
Tested pH optima ranges have been reported from about 7.2 to 9.0 for
Nitrosomonas, and about 6.3 to 9.4 for Nitrobacter. Saeki found that the
oxidation of ammonia in freshwater aquariums was inhibited by low pH. The
ideal pH was 7.8 for ammonia oxidation and 7.1 for conversion of nitrite to
nitrate. Srna and Baggaley determined that the marine nitrifiers used in
their study functioned best at pH 7.45, with an effective range of 7.0-8.2.
Kawai et. al found that there were 10^5 ammonia oxidizing bacteria per gram
of sand in the top portions of the filter bed in a seawater aquarium,
(that's 100,000 CFU or colony forming units, assumed to be single cells) and
that the number of nitrite oxidizing bacteria was 10^6. (one million) The
populations of each type fell by 90% at a depth of only 5 cm. Bill Patrick
once asked me about the bacterial populations in aquaponic gravel. How
about 1 x 10^7 aerobe bacteria per gram for aquarium sand which is 2-5 mm in
diameter? Kawai found that the total aerobic bacterial count in his
aquarium sand increased 10 fold within 2 weeks after the addition of fishes.
The maximum population density of 10^* organisms per gram of filter sand was
reached after 2 weeks, and the population stabilzed at 10^7/g after 3
months.
Mineralization rates can vary by temperature and aeration (Dissolved oxygen
concentrations) as well. In a 21 week aerobic incubation of a low nitrogen
content trout manure (0.8% of dry matter) with soil, Westerman, Hinshaw and
Barker found that there was a steady mineralization of organic nitrogen for
about 16 weeks, indicating that the trout manure is a good "slow release"
fertilizer. But at elevated temperatures suitable for Tilapia culture, that
feces mineralization rate may be quadruple, or better, than the rate of
trout feces mineralization. Mineralization is the first stage in biological
filtration or treatment or transformation. In the case of nitrogenous
organic compounds, mineralization may begin by the decomposition of proteins
and nucleic acids to produce amino acids and nitrogenous organic bases.
De-amination is a mineralization process in which an amino group is split
off to form ammonia. An example of de-aminationis the breakdown of urea to
produce free ammonia (NH3). So, mineralization by the heterotrophic
bacteria is the first stage of biological transformation of the fish feces
nitrogen, and nitrification by the nitrifying bacteria are the subsequent
stages.
Nitrification can be inhibited by certain antibacterial agents and
paraciticides. Perhaps surprisingly, oxytetracycline at 50 mg/L has no
measurable inhibition, whereas erythromycin at the same concentration has
100% inhibitory effects. Formalin at 25 mg/L, equivalent to 10 mg/L of
formaldehyde, has little or no inhibitory effects, copper sulfate at up to 5
ppm has no effect, but the reports of potassium permanganate having
inhibitory effects were mixed
.at 4ppm zero effects were reported by one
investigator, and at 1 ppm, 86% inhibition was reported by another
investigator.
Hope some of that helps, or was entertaining.
Gotta go do stuff now.
Have a grand weekend!
Ted
| Message 26
Subject: Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:31:48 -0500 (CDT)
Stan Im not arguing. Just stateing the not so obvious facts so mistakes
are not made by the less informed newbies on the list
Bruce
| Message 27
Subject: Re: BASIL
From: "gutierrez-lagatta"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:57:55 -0500
Merci, Claude.
> For pseudomonas spot, copper
> For nematode, avoid wetting the leaf or splashing water on them
> Corynespora can be controled with most fongicide available.
| Message 28
Subject: Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:05:16 -0500
> Glen The air injection method used to Aerate Aquarium systems works
> by creating an up flow of water from the tank bottom to the surface for
> air exchange. The the air bubbles being lighter than water push the
> water before them to the surface and contribute little of them selfs to
> the actual usable oxygen content of the water .This method is not in use
> as much as it one was in single tanks due to the frequent need to
> replace bubble diffusers and pump diaphragms often causing die offs. I
> know that it does not look like it works in the way that way i am
> telling you but I am shure of my facts!
I changed out my airlifts for arrays of 12 inch air stones, but I think it
is good to use both, and even trickle towers. Actually, some degree of
aeration takes place in the gravel bed as water is trickled in, but if there
is a big BOD (biochemical oxygen demand) in the water itself as well as from
accumulated solids in the gravel, the O2 gained in the trickle can be
somewhat consumed in the gravel bed by biochemical respiration of roots,
bacterial, etc.
Check out http://www.aerob-a-jet.com
Ted
| Message 29
Subject: Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:13:32 -0500 (CDT)
Arlos I must confess my ignorance. Could you please describe for me
what an Eductor manifold looks like?
How it operates ? and maybe how i would go about building one ?
Bruce
| Message 30
Subject: RE: Pond Aerator Solutions
From: "billevans"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 13:32:55 -0700
http://www.kinetic-therm.com/english/product/eductor/page01.htm
high pressure liquid moving past a venturi creates vacuum
| Message 31
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 15:53:46 -0500 (CDT)
Arlos I understand the spray bar and I do use them for surface
agitation being simple to make. But could you please explain for us the
how the Aeration tower,Plate diffuser and regeneration blowers work?
I think that the plate diffuser might be what is commonly used on top of
reef systems filtration in salt water set ups sort of a flat plate with
a lot of holes drilled in it but i am probably wrong .
What about the aeration tower is it something that I could make? does
It splash water down over a high pipe filled with netting or some other
medium to aerate the water?
I am guessing but I bet that a regenerative blower is to hard to build
with expedient materials
Bruce
| Message 32
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
From: "TGTX"
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 16:26:32 -0500
> I am guessing but I bet that a regenerative blower is to hard to build
> with expedient materials
> Bruce
See Lindsay Publications "How to Design & Build Centrifugal Fans" 112 pages
Catalog No. 4600. $9.95.
http://www.lindsaybks.com
| Message 33
Subject: Re: Help anyone!!
From: RalphMcl 'at' aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:33:31 EDT
Bruce,
Thanks for your comments.
All of the catfish died. Ich was found to be the culprit.
Thanks again
Ralph
| Message 34
Subject: Re: Help
From: RalphMcl 'at' aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:37:55 EDT
Charlie,
It was Ralph asking for help and I did get Dr. Crosby to come out and he
determined that ich was my problem.
Many thanks for your suggestion.
Ralph
| Message 35
Subject: Re: BASIL
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 21:11:13 -0500
At 10:45 PM 06/01/2001 +0200, Margi wrote:
>Today's problem:
>Basil: grown from seed sown in growing bed early March. Seed packet says it
>will mature in 120 days: Internet research says 30-35 days. How tall is
>mature?
>I have not actually seen a mature basil plant: just those dinky ones they
>sell in herb pots that die in the kitchen a week after purchase. Growth to=
3
>or 4 inches was really quick then about three weeks ago black spots (aka
>akin to those that appear on rose leaves) appeared on some of the leaves.
>Pinched out all leaves showing disease which has encouraged growth lower
>down the stem: but the black spot still pitches up on the more mature
>leaves, now with a yellowing of the leaf as well. How do I determine if the
>growth has slowed down because of disease or lack of nutrients? How do I=
get
>rid of the bug? I have looked up an amazing number of websites for basil=
but
>cannot find pictures or any in depth articles that deal with more than the
>basic facts.
Adriana responded:
>How great to expand the global range of this colorful group!
>How tall is mature basil? When it's big enough to cut and sell - I
>found this to be at about 45-50 days. It will be about 6" tall.
>REALLY mature basil, the ready-to-tear out stage, will get woody stems
>and the growth will not be as lush and beuatiful. Under heavy
>production this will happen at 4-5 months after seeding. Some people
>are using the single-cut and then tear out method to sell gorgeous
>first-cut tender basil every time, others allow it to grow back and
>recut until it gets woody. It's your choice. If you recut be sure to
>do so just above a node so that the plant will branch out for you.
>> Basil: grown from seed sown in growing bed early March. Seed packet
>says it
>> will mature in 120 days: Internet research says 30-35 days. How tall
>is
>> mature?
>
>Ah, those dreaded black spots. I got them on my basil in Florida, at
>first it was a spot then they got a "bull's-eye" pattern. I could
>never get a definitive diagnosis of the problem. I think we even
>e-mailed photos to the hydroponic gurus in the University. Just
>remove the leaves, and if a plant is very infested tear it out
>completely. Once a plant gets them you can't get rid of it on that
>plant.
]
about three weeks ago black spots
>(aka
>> akin to those that appear on rose leaves) appeared on some of the
>leaves.
>> Pinched out all leaves showing disease which has encouraged growth
>lower
>> down the stem: but the black spot still pitches up on the more
>mature
>> leaves, now with a yellowing of the leaf as well.
>
>
>If the color is off I would attribute it to nutrient issues. For
>yellowing, I would suspect either an iron or magnesium deficiency.
>Did you by any chance have your source water analyzed before you
>started this venture?
---------------------------------------------
Ted wrote:
>How tall is
>> mature?
>
>Well, mature to some botanical minds might mean going to seed
.you can
>easily start harvesting basil in 28 to 35 days and continue to cut the tops
>for continuous harvest, racing against the flowering phase, and still
>harvest even while it is flowering. Basil went absolutely crazy in my
>system during the warm months. Just nuts. Out of control
I couldn't
>sell it all. I think the market was saturated, but people loved it
I
>should have been more hip to the packaging and marketing
.I should have
>gone with mass marketing, but I didn't and there you go
.I made enough
>pesto to float a battleship
.and that was for my own consumption.>I LOVE BASIL, SO I GUESS THAT MAKES ME AN HONORARY TOMATO>>>
>
>> cannot find pictures or any in depth articles that deal with more than=
the
>> basic facts.
>
>Tell me about the actual temperature high and low in your greenhouse, and=
if
>you can, the humidity cycle from day to night. Cool nights with
>accompanying condensation might contribute to necrotic spots.
---------------------------------------------------
Claude contributed:
>>How tall is mature?
>
>mature basil can grow to about 3 feet
>
>> Once a plant gets them you can't get rid of it on that
>> plant.
>
>On basil large black spot are caused by pseudomonass bacteria. they produce
>large black spot very fast
>
>smaller black spot are caused by corynespora fungus or simply by potassium
>deficiency.
>
>In some country foliar nematode are a serious problem and produce small=
black
>spot that enlarge very fast
>> If the color is off I would attribute it to nutrient issues. For
>> yellowing, I would suspect either an iron or magnesium deficiency.
>
>yellow young leaf are often a manganese problem. the basal part of the=
young
>leaf turn yellow mainly between vein.
---------------------------------------------------
Ted says:
>Don't let your greenhouse get too cool at night. If you are dancing around
>55-50 degrees F at night you are dancing around risk for Basil. Not that
>they will 100% die at that temperature, but you may find an increased
>incidence of the black necrotic spots.
>I attribute this in part to condensation on the leaves that stand there in
>dew beads on the leaf and at those micro-spots of tissue wilting, come
>opportunistic pathogens into the damaged tissue points, such as the
>psuedomonas, etc. mentioned earlier. Best to prevent these conditions in
>the first place, rather than to react to the disease conditions with some
>kind of spray, in my opinion. At cooler temps, the leaves are subject to
>the tissue damage. It is just a fact of plant physiology and=
ultrastructure
>for the poor old basil plant genome.=20
-----------------------------------------
Claude:
>For pseudomonas spot, copper fungicide are excellent but that problem is=
really
>cultivar dependant. some cultivar are very sensitive to that disease and=
other
>are r=E9sistant. I can't tel which one to chose but by experiance the large=
leaf
>cultivar are more sensitive.
>
>For nematode, avoid wetting the leaf or splashing water on them and it=
should
>be enough. that problem is also cultivar dependant.
>
>Corynespora can be controled with most fongicide available.
---------------------------------------
Bruce added:
>
>Margi Its hard to say what you might have on your plants .The reason is
>the plant diseases in Africa are likely to be far different than here in
>the US. But its likely to be fungal in nature so if you go to your
>garden center and bring a sample see if you can get some thing Anti
>fungal and ask a lot of questions .
--------------------------------------
Lots of good answers, Margi, on your basil questions. Not too much I can
add to the black spot discussion, as most of the subjects have been covered.
As we discussed earlier, it's probably more environmentally related at this
time of year for you there in the southern hemisphere.=20
As for the basil harvesting, we found it much more profitable to grow very
intensively from seedlings, with the basil maturing at 12" to 18" after 3-4
weeks. We'd harvest the entire crop, stems and all to the lowest healthy
leaves (to the base in most cases), then strip the beds and replant with new
seedlings. Growing from seed properly spaced took too long to harvest, and
cut-and-come-again is too labor intensive to be profitable. You've seen how
easily basil can germinate (in proper temperatures), and my own opinion is
that that's the way to produce it most efficiently. Even if you are growing
for a high-dollar, leaf-only, retail-packaged market, you'll still get the
fastest turn and most annual production from that method, I believe.
As for treating the basil that is growing poorly, has black spots, etc. I
think you would be well-advised (as Ted stated), unless you intend to add
supplement heat to the greehouse, to close out the basil crop and work on
lettuces and greens through your winter -- especially in this inaugural=
year.
Best of luck with your expansion, and be sure to keep us posted.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
| Message 36
Subject: Re: BASIL
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 21:18:24 -0500
At 08:23 AM 06/02/2001 -0500, Adriana, then Ted wrote:
>
>> If I could only grow one variety of basil it would be Johnny's
>> Selected seeds genovese Basil.
>
>I totally agree with A.G. on that count. And here is why: The appearance,
>the aromatic strength, the vigorous growth, and the strength of the leaf
>tissue both during and after harvest of the Genovese Basil are superior,
>compared with the Italian Large Leaf variety, in my opinion. Genovese
>variety is the quintessential pesto type, it comes right from Italy. Large,
>dark structurally robust leaves are about 2 inches long. My choice above
>all others. Italian Large Leaf variety tends to be more fragile, frail,
>membranous almost, it seems.
I'll third that, and I think you'll find the Genovese is the industry
standard. We sampled the basils we had, then surveyed the produce broker's
inventory before deciding on a final variety, so we "sideways" had help with
our decision. Too bad we didn't have this group to query then!
In fact, you will find that basil may
>not hold up as well after harvest and packaging, in walk-in cooler
>temperatures that are set too low at the restaurant, whereas a salad greens
>mix will do just fine in terms of shelf life, at the same low temperature.
>Be aware of that. Usually the chefs are aware of that.
The chefs may be, and the brokers "may be", but we found a lot of problems
develop because they only have so much space to store product -- and most of
that is in their one-temp cooler. Basil ships and stores best between 55-65
degrees, I believe. It's a difficult product to ship long distances without
risk of temperature fluctuations, and then once it's to it's final location,
you have to hope that they understand this or you end up with complaints
about your product turning black. Basil, in my opinion, is really best sold
locally or regionally where you can better control the shipping conditions
and speak to the end user about storage temps.
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
| Message 37
Subject: Fwd. milk and roses
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 21:21:20 -0500
>Sender: Organic Gardening Discussion List
>From: Deborah Turton
>To: OGL 'at' LSV.UKY.EDU
>
>I was talking to a friend of mine from North Carolina and one of her
>friends uses milk/water mixture on her roses. they haven't had any black
>spot of the roses this year. My friend doesn't know what dilution she's
>using. thought those of you with roses and milk would be interested to
>hear this.
This is forwarded from the Organic Gardening list. Does anyone have
information that would confirm this treatment for black spot on basil?
I know it's been used for treatment of tobacco mosaic virus on hydro
tomatoes with success. Is the black spot on roses related?
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
| Message 38
Subject: Re: Proposed Organic Standards for Aquatic Animals
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 21:33:30 -0500
At 07:24 PM 05/31/2001 -0500, Adriana wrote:
>The National Organic Standards Board will convene a meeting in La
>Crosse WI on June 6-7 at which time the Institute for Social, Economic
>and Ecological Sustainability Task Force will present their
>recommendations There will also be an open public comment period
>before and after the meeting. The proposed standards are posted on the
>ISEES website at http://www.fw.umn.edu/ISEES/
>
>Thanks go to Deborah J. Brister for keeping us informed. If you have
>any comments I would direct them to her.
>
>Deborah J. Brister
>Organic Aquaculture Project Manager
>Institute for Social, Economic and Ecological Sustainability
>University of Minnesota
>186 McNeal Hall
>1985 Buford Avenue
>St. Paul, MN 55108-6142
>djb 'at' fw.umn.edu
Thanks, Adriana, for posting this -- I had a more complete copy I'd intended
to send to the list, but I'm obviously days (weeks?) behind in my
"intended's". Deborah did forward a 97KB attachment that I'd be glad to
forward to anyone who needs it. Title is:
AQUATIC TASK FORCE RECOMMENDATIONS 5.25.01
The Federal Register notice on this has some additional information as well.
If you'd like a full copy of Deborah's message on the FR notice (with
recommendations attachment), contact me directly at snsaquasys 'at' townsqr.com
and I'll forward a copy.
Thanks
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
| Message 39
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 00:06:06 -0500
Hi Arlos,
I am running an O2 concentrator which is attached to 2 airstones. The O2
concentrator puts out apprx. 90-95% FIO2 'at' 6/lpm. I'm very happy with this
configuration, but with your experience, is there a better end application
than airstones?
I am currently running a 700 gal recirc. system with apprx. 100 Tilapia.
Thanks
.Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arlos"
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
Bruce,
Not to split hairs or create an endless string on the subject but
diffusion of gas through plate diffusers and especially regenerative blowers
work just fine. I work at the Monterey Bay Aquarium / Stanford
Universities' Tuna Research and Conservation Center )TRCC) where we have 4
large aeration towers supported by recirculation systems and regenerative
blowers that when measured at the influent of each holding tank have
readings of 100-107% of DO. This provides a 100% distribution of DO through
out the water column in high stocking densities of both blue and yellow fin
tuna which have extremely high metabolic rates. Though surface transfer of
gas is not to be argued. You can't beat spray bars either in the right
application.Sub surface systems for aquaculture and waste treatment have
more than enough data to support their continued use. It boils down to the
cost of gas transference being the core of the issue. O&M costs drive the
design process.
Bringing science and engineering to the subject of aquaponics will help
everyone make a more qualified choice as to the appropriately applied level
of technology.
Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Schreiber
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Date: Saturday, June 02, 2001 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Pond Aerator Solutions
Mark The air bubbles from an aireator contribute very little to the
oxygen content of the water directly.Instead they help to cause an up
swelling of water from lower in the tank to the water surface were the
REAL OXYGEN EXCHANGE takes place. Any way that you can circulate water
up to the surface works as good as air driven
Bruce
|
