Aquaponics Digest - Mon 07/23/01



Message   1: Re: Outside Aquaponics
             from pablo obiaga 

Message   2: Place for off-topic discussion groups
             from Michael Olson 

Message   3: Re: Outside Aquaponics
             from "Leslie Ter Morshuizen"


Message   4: NFT aquaponics
             from "Mark Allen Wells"


Message   5: RE: Outside Aquaponics- Spray efficiencys
of pumps
             from "Hurst, Steve ( China)"


Message   6: Re: Watercress postharvest handling
             from "gutierrez-lagatta"


Message   7: Re: NFT aquaponics
             from "gutierrez-lagatta"


Message   8: Re: NFT aquaponics
             from "Attie Esterhuyse"


Message   9: Re: Watercress postharvest handling
             from S & S Aqua Farm


Message  10: Re: Outside Aquaponics
             from "Attie Esterhuyse"


Message  11: Re: Outside Aquaponics
             from dreadlox 'at' cwjamaica.com

Message  12: Re: NFT aquaponics
             from "gutierrez-lagatta"


Message  13: hydroponics in National Geographic
             from "Arlos"


Message  14: Re: Outside Aquaponics
             from "Attie Esterhuyse"


Message  15: Re: Outside Aquaponics
             from Lynn Wigglesworth 

Message  16: Re: Watercress postharvest handling
             from "gutierrez-lagatta"


Message  17: Re: hydroponics in National Geographic
             from "gutierrez-lagatta"


Message  18: Re: NFT aquaponics
             from "Attie Esterhuyse"


Message  19: Re: "Kool Ray" liquid shade
             from Andrei.Calciu 'at' hn.va.nec.com

Message  20: RE: NFT aquaponics
             from "Mark Allen Wells"


Message  21: RE: mushrooms
             from Andrei.Calciu 'at' hn.va.nec.com

Message  22: Re: NFT aquaponics
             from kris book 

Message  23: mushrooms
             from "Carlos R. Arano"


Message  24: Re: Outside Aquaponics
             from "gutierrez-lagatta"


Message  25: organic hydroponics
             from "gutierrez-lagatta"


Message  26: Re: Outside Aquaponics -Correction
             from "gutierrez-lagatta"


Message  27: Re: "Kool Ray" liquid shade
             from kris book 

Message  28: Re: organic hydroponics
             from kris book 

Message  29: Re: Outside Aquaponics
             from "gutierrez-lagatta"


Message  30: Re: mushrooms
             from Raul Vergueiro Martins


Message  31: Outside aquaponics
             from "Leslie Ter Morshuizen"


Message  32: Re: Outside Aquaponics
             from "Leslie Ter Morshuizen"


Message  33: RE: mushrooms
             from "Carlos R. Arano"


Message  34: Re: mushrooms
             from Raul Vergueiro Martins


Message  35: Re: Fish Species for Aquaponics
             from "STEVE SPRING" 

Message  36: Re: Let's leave a list for Paula

             from dreadlox 'at' cwjamaica.com

Message  37: Re: On and Off Topic Ponderings (Not Too
Long)
             from marc 'at' aculink.net

Message  38: Re: Let's leave a list for Paula

             from "Arlos"


Message  39: Re: my system diagrams
             from "David Atkinson"


Message  40: Luminescence on Fish body
             from dreadlox 'at' cwjamaica.com

Message  41: Re: On and Off Topic Ponderings (Not Too
Long)
             from kris book 

Message  42: Fw: Re: lists
             from kris book 

Message  43: Re: Luminescence on Fish body
             from S & S Aqua Farm


Message  44: Attachments and graphics & lists
             from S & S Aqua Farm


| Message 1

Subject: Re: Outside Aquaponics
From:    pablo obiaga 
Date:    Mon, 23 Jul 2001 02:35:33 -0300

At 20:59 22/07/01 EDT, you wrote:

Perhaps is a newbie question but. Isn't the velocity
given by the second
pump, the violence of water movement in the return to
the fish tank wich
provides the necesary O2 by surfacing new water layers
while opperating? 

How do you solve the matter just by gravity?. I'M very
interested because
two pumps in these latitudes may mean that you can't
do the thing.

I am in the process of designing a system of beds in a
GH and have the fish
>tanks in the ground and let the water return by
gravity. 1/2 the number of
>pumps and 1/2 the electricity .
>
>ps: you are right in having a cover over the beds,
the rains will really
>dilute your nutrients.

Thanks, Bert.

Richard

| Message 2

Subject: Place for off-topic discussion groups
From:    Michael Olson 
Date:    Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:31:38 -0700 (PDT)

Kris,

There is a nice, independent place that you can set up
a discussion group for free. I like the format much
better than this email list:

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/

click on Add Topic to start the process for setting up
a new group.

__________________________________________________

Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute
with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

| Message 3

Subject: Re: Outside Aquaponics
From:    "Leslie Ter Morshuizen"

Date:    Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:51:02 +0200

Hi Richard

It would be cheaper to operate a single, slightly
larger pump, to provide a
side-stream return of water to the fish tank for
aeration, than to have a
second water pump purely for the purpose of aeration.
My suggestion (having
never done aquaponics, but having an understanding of
recirculating
aquaculture) would be to use a single, external,
continuous rated, water
pump to get the water to the highest point from where
it gravity flows back
to the sump, which is also the fish tank in the case
of aquaponics.  If you
want an irregular water flow, use a self-priming
siphon to produce this
effect.

Regards,
                    Leslie

> Perhaps is a newbie question but. Isn't the velocity
given by the second
> pump, the violence of water movement in the return
to the fish tank wich
> provides the necesary O2 by surfacing new water
layers while opperating?
> How do you solve the matter just by gravity?. I'M
very interested because
> two pumps in these latitudes may mean that you can't
do the thing.

| Message 4

Subject: NFT aquaponics
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Mon, 23 Jul 2001 02:07:00 -0500

Hi folks,

I've read lots of stuff since I have been here
about beds and rafts.  I was wondering if anyone
is using an NFT system with their fish tanks.
thanks,
Mark

ps
.thanks to those who contributed to the digester
thread.  It was like talking about an old friend.  I'm
sorry if it seemed off topic for some.  For me, it was
about how to convert aquaponic waste to energy.  I
look
forward to being a part of another list on that
subject.

| Message 5

Subject: RE: Outside Aquaponics- Spray efficiencys of
pumps
From:    "Hurst, Steve ( China)" 
Date:    Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:10:47 +0800

Interested in the same point. 
My experiments with trying to save electricity
by cutting down on the pump size/velocity has resulted
in me having to
start up my aerators again. 
100 watt pumps can distribute the water across the
system okay ( both ways
),
( thats 100 watts  'at'  220V, Philipinne Voltage )
but the aeration effect of the shower head is almost
negligible compared
to my 1/2 HP pump I was using.( as per S&S
recomendations, good advice ! )

As my total goal is still to run the entire operation
on Solar/alternative
energy, I still might be able to attain a net
reduction in power
requirements.

Other possibility I am looking into is the reverse of
this idea, which is
actually to build
the tanks on top of the Pigstys, to give enough head
to the liguid to spray
out of the distribution grid on the grow bed. (
running from a standpipe
in the tank, and emptying using a timed/actuated valve
to growbeds ),
However, It might require even bigger pumps to return
the water to the 
higher elevation, and spray, without having to use the
aerators.
Altogether there may be little or no net gain in power
reduction
requirements,
with the additional expense of more expensive tanks
and buildings.

Incidentally the best I am able to achive using 100
watt pumps in my tanks
is about 48% DO.( without aerators ) I have tried
various configurations
using the shower head,
spray bar and even steps. Shower head and spray bar
appear to work similarly
well.

I need to be able to maintain Tilapia levels at the
higher stocking densitys
to
make it viable, so I beleive I may have to live with
the higher power
requirements
of the larger pumps.

Still working the numbers out on all this. Not been
running long enough yet
to come up with an answer.

Steve H

SNIP
>Perhaps is a newbie question but. Isn't the velocity
given by the second
>pump, the violence of water movement in the return to
the fish tank wich
>provides the necesary O2 by surfacing new water
layers while opperating? 

>How do you solve the matter just by gravity?. I'M
very interested because
>two pumps in these latitudes may mean that you can't
do the thing.

>I am in the process of designing a system of beds in
a GH and have the fish
>>tanks in the ground and let the water return by
gravity. 1/2 the number of
>>pumps and 1/2 the electricity .
>
>>ps: you are right in having a cover over the beds,
the rains will really
>>dilute your nutrients.

| Message 6

Subject: Re: Watercress postharvest handling
From:    "gutierrez-lagatta"

Date:    Mon, 23 Jul 2001 02:30:30 -0500

Paula,

What I saw was a carton of greens in a local
restaurant that had been
delivered by a produce wholesaler.  Most produce in
this area comes
through Atlanta.
> producer direct selling to a restaurant.  Sometimes
the term
"wholesale" has
> a lot of different meanings.

Would you recommend a light misting before bagging or
something more
subtantial like dipping the watercress in fresh water,
giving it a
like shake and then bagging?
> As I said, we had good storage life (1-2 weeks) from
packaging in
sealed
> poly bags with some moisture .  No way you should
let watercress dry
out

Adriana

| Message 7

Subject: Re: NFT aquaponics
From:    "gutierrez-lagatta"

Date:    Mon, 23 Jul 2001 02:51:48 -0500

Mark,

There is a USDA research station in West Virginia
(sorry, forgot the
name of the town, possibly Kearneysville or
Shepherdstown) which has
done research growing NFT strawberries and lettuce in
trout effluent.
This wasn't a recirculating system, however. It was a
demonstration of
the ability of the hydroponic component to remove
nutrients from the
effluent, rendering it clean enough to discharge into
the local
waterways.
> I was wondering if anyone
> is using an NFT system with their fish tanks.
Adriana

| Message 8

Subject: Re: NFT aquaponics
From:    "Attie Esterhuyse" 
Date:    23 Jul 2001 10:56:18 +0200

The researcher who did this was Dr Paul Adler. Fumiomi
Takeda was also
involved. Dr Adler's paper was discussed on an
internet conference held by
the IBSnet (Integrated Bio Systems).  For more
information on the IBS net,
you can contact
Jacky Foo at foo 'at' SWIPNET.SE

Regards

Attie

gutierrez-lagatta wrote:

> Mark,
>
> There is a USDA research station in West Virginia
(sorry, forgot the
> name of the town, possibly Kearneysville or
Shepherdstown) which has
> done research growing NFT strawberries and lettuce
in trout effluent.
> This wasn't a recirculating system, however. It was
a demonstration of
> the ability of the hydroponic component to remove
nutrients from the
> effluent, rendering it clean enough to discharge
into the local
> waterways.
> > I was wondering if anyone
> > is using an NFT system with their fish tanks.>
> Adriana

| Message 9

Subject: Re: Watercress postharvest handling
From:    S & S Aqua Farm 
Date:    Mon, 23 Jul 2001 06:49:37 -0500

At 02:30 AM 07/23/2001 -0500, Adriana wrote:
>
>What I saw was a carton of greens in a local
restaurant that had been
>delivered by a produce wholesaler.  Most produce in
this area comes
>through Atlanta.

If I were looking to supply that same customer, I'd
ask the buyer how he
likes that arrangement.  Unless they intend to work
straight from the
carton, I'd think it unnecessary to supply extra
packaging that's going out
the back door so they can put the product in the
cooler.

>Would you recommend a light misting before bagging or
something more
>subtantial like dipping the watercress in fresh
water, giving it a
>like shake and then bagging?

I think either way would work fine.  As long as your
product doesn't need
rinsing, there's no need for excessive drenching.
Picked, misted, bagged
and cooled should work the best, I'd think, and
eliminate too much moisture.
You can always experiment to see if one works better
over the other.  We
always picked early in the morning when the product
was still moist from
overnight.  With the heat difference in our locations,
you may not have that
much moisture.  If you do try both ways, I'd be
interested in what you find.
We always need input from other climates to balance
out what we know.

Thanks,
Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO
65775  417-256-5124
Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

| Message 10

Subject: Re: Outside Aquaponics
From:    "Attie Esterhuyse" 
Date:    23 Jul 2001 14:19:09 +0200

Hi Leslie

I was thinking of using the same method that you just
described. Do you
think one will get enough aeration with the return
flow?

 I was thinking of using Vertigro pots just before the
water returns to
the fish tank. Since one has a flow rate of about 4
l/h down one column
of pots, the water should be exposed to a lot of air.
This is if one can
use gravel, or some other loose material, in the pot
as the grow medium.
If there would be enough air movement in the pot
column is another
question, since only a small surface area per pot is
exposed to the
atmosphere.  The way I would do this is to first let
the water flow
through the gravel beds by means of gravity. Here one
must configure the
piping such as to allow for an ebb and flow cycle in
the gravel bed.
This is crucial for the bacteria living on the gravel
as well as for
aeration of the plant roots.  After the gravel bed I
would place a sump
with the water pump. An advantage would be that the
water at this point
is clean and without any solids and filamentous
materials whish can
cause blockages. From the sump, the water is pumped to
the top of the
Vertigro pots and than allowed to trickle back to the
fish dam. Care
should be taken, with designing of the system, to make
sure that the
fish dam water can never drain to a level hazardous to
the fish.

The only unknowns to me are the level of aeration one
can accomplish in
this way and the maximum time the gravel beds can be
flooded before
damage to the plant roots or bacteria occurs.

Regards

Attie

Leslie Ter Morshuizen wrote:

> Hi Richard
>
> It would be cheaper to operate a single, slightly
larger pump, to provide a
> side-stream return of water to the fish tank for
aeration, than to have a
> second water pump purely for the purpose of
aeration.  My suggestion (having
> never done aquaponics, but having an understanding
of recirculating
> aquaculture) would be to use a single, external,
continuous rated, water
> pump to get the water to the highest point from
where it gravity flows back
> to the sump, which is also the fish tank in the case
of aquaponics.  If you
> want an irregular water flow, use a self-priming
siphon to produce this
> effect.
>
> Regards,
>                     Leslie
>
> > Perhaps is a newbie question but. Isn't the
velocity given by the second
> > pump, the violence of water movement in the return
to the fish tank wich
> > provides the necesary O2 by surfacing new water
layers while opperating?
> > How do you solve the matter just by gravity?. I'M
very interested because
> > two pumps in these latitudes may mean that you
can't do the thing.

| Message 11

Subject: Re: Outside Aquaponics
From:    dreadlox 'at' cwjamaica.com
Date:    Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:45:34 -0700

Hi ATTIE,

Nice to see you again. I set up my rainwater system on
Saturday,
spanning 150 feet, traversing a road, and going UNDER
a road, all
working off gravity flow
. NOTHING beat having it in
your head and then
actually doing it.

What I am (laterally) trying to say is
. DO AN
EXPERIMENT!!:> Try
stacking a few hanging flowerpots full of gravel over
each other, and
rig your pump to the top of the stack and let her
wheel
if you have a
DO meter, and such already
.do a few readings
 I can
tell you, and Im
sure the others much further into this than I will
tell you

The feel good factor seeing your own results will give
you a rush for
days
.  you seem to have more pep in your step, and
you just keep
going. AQUAPONICS IS ADDICTIVE>>!!! :) THAT you wont
get out of a list
or table.Ive built large water cleaning equipment based on
aquaponics, and the
outcome can never be really evaluated till it runs.
Try it
. youll like it!

Mike
JAMAICA

PS. CAPS DENOTE EXCITEMENT LEVELS
.not
shouting
.hehehe

Attie Esterhuyse wrote:
> 
> The only unknowns to me are the level of aeration
one can accomplish in
> this way and the maximum time the gravel beds can be
flooded before
> damage to the plant roots or bacteria occurs.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Attie
>

| Message 12

Subject: Re: NFT aquaponics
From:    "gutierrez-lagatta"

Date:    Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:56:00 -0500

You're correct Attie,

It was Paul Adler and Dr. Takeda; I visitied Dr. Adler
at the USDA
research facility in West Virginia in the early stages
of my research
about 3 years ago.  One lingering question I have
about using NFT in
conjunction with aquaculture has to do with the
ability to process
large volumes of effluent.  In Paula's flood and drain
beds every inch
of the gravel surface area plus the plant roots serve
as the biofilter
for the effluent.  In NFT you use much less effluent.
Therefore the
ratios of  fish to plants may need to be modified for
this application
and the density of fish in #/gallon of water needs to
be studied
carefully to ensure an adequate level of nutrients in
the water.

Adriana

> The researcher who did this was Dr Paul Adler.
Fumiomi Takeda was
also
> involved. Dr Adler's paper was discussed on an
internet conference
held by
> the IBSnet (Integrated Bio Systems).

| Message 13

Subject: hydroponics in National Geographic
From:    "Arlos" 
Date:    Mon, 23 Jul 2001 07:02:53 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hola Amigos,

  There is an artists conception in a National
Geographic issue from =
about 1968 showing a large domed hydroponic farm of
the future =
(1990's?). If anyone has a copy of this (I'm working
off of memory =
here). It would make a great post.What made this stick
between my ears =
was a statement about the future where we would only
work 3-4 hours per =
week. Yea, right, when pigs learn to operate heavy
equipment too.

Arlos
"Will do calculus for spare change"

=_NextPart_000_000D_01C11345.7E511A00
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Hola Amigos,
 
  There is an artists = conception in a=20 National Geographic issue from about 1968 showing a large domed = hydroponic farm=20 of the future (1990's?). If anyone has a copy of this (I'm working off = of memory=20 here). It would make a great post.What made this stick between my ears = was a=20 statement about the future where we would only work 3-4 hours per week. = Yea,=20 right, when pigs learn to operate heavy equipment too.
 
Arlos
"Will do calculus for spare=20 change"
=_NextPart_000_000D_01C11345.7E511A00-- | Message 14 Subject: Re: Outside Aquaponics From: "Attie Esterhuyse" Date: 23 Jul 2001 16:02:30 +0200 Thanks Mike, I am busy putting prices together and sourcing the few things that i will need for a test run. I just found a fish dam at a reasonable price this afternoon. So soon I want to have that pep in my step. Attie | Message 15 Subject: Re: Outside Aquaponics From: Lynn Wigglesworth Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:06:13 -0400 At 02:19 PM 7/23/2001 +0200, Attie Esterhuyse wrote: >Hi Leslie > >I was thinking of using the same method that you just described. Do you >think one will get enough aeration with the return flow? This is an interesting discussion for me, too, since I'm still in the planning stage. I have a related question: how do you determine the square (or is it cubic) footage of growbeds and sumps needed to handle the amount of effluent coming from the tank? The amount of water coming from the tank isn't too hard to calculate, as 'X' water changes per hour are recommended and I'll know the gph of the pump(s). I understand that stocking density determines the level of nutrients in the effluent, but that's easy to change, compared to making the growbeds bigger or smaller once they are in place. How do I figure out much growbed it takes to handle, say, 10 gallon per minute flow? Lynn Wigglesworth Peasant Farmer Tioga County, PA | Message 16 Subject: Re: Watercress postharvest handling From: "gutierrez-lagatta" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:08:16 -0500 I did, I asked him if it was OK to give it to home loose in plastic bags and he said "fine" which makes me happy, happy. It saves at least $1 - 1.50 per box and is good for the environment as well. > If I were looking to supply that same customer, I'd ask the buyer how he > likes that arrangement. Unless they intend to work straight from the > carton, I'd think it unnecessary to supply extra packaging that's going out > the back door so they can put the product in the cooler. I'll try to do some shelf life testing as soon as my refrigeration capabilities are improved. By way of educating prospective growers .one of the costs that you should think about when setting up one of these operations is a walk-in cooler. I had one in Florida and don't have one in Alabama yet and miss it desperately. Cooling your product down as soon as possible after cutting is probably the most critical factor in the shelf life of greens. > With the heat difference in our locations, you may not have that > much moisture. If you do try both ways, I'd be interested in what you find. > We always need input from other climates to balance out what we know. Adriana | Message 17 Subject: Re: hydroponics in National Geographic From: "gutierrez-lagatta" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:11:24 -0500 Yeah and obviously there are no aphids in this "future farm" :>).>What made this stick between my ears was a statement about the future where we would only work 3-4 hours per week. >Yea, right, when pigs learn to operate heavy equipment too. | Message 18 Subject: Re: NFT aquaponics From: "Attie Esterhuyse" Date: 23 Jul 2001 16:22:25 +0200 Hi Adriana In one of Dr Rakocy's reports he mentions that the surface area of the Styrofoam rafts that he is using is large enough to house enough bacteria for the nitrification process. He is also making use of airstones, placed below the rafts to make sure that there is enough Oxygen present for the bacteria. So maybe the same sort of principal will apply with NFT. They also remove the solids from their system and still grow nice crops. One thing that I remember from Dr. Adlerís report was that they first grew the lettuce in a normal hydroponic mixture before placing it in the NFT system. Maybe I have it a bit wrong but it canít be to much. He mentioned something about luxurious uptake of nutrients and that the small plant then actually has enough stored nutrients to survive in the low nutrient content water from the fish farm. Attie | Message 19 Subject: Re: "Kool Ray" liquid shade From: Andrei.Calciu 'at' hn.va.nec.com Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:41:09 -0400 Guys, I have a small problem with the liquid shade. Why use it instead of a shade cloth? It stays on permanently (more or less) so when you have less sun out there, you cannot pull it down to compensate. Etc, etc, etc. Sure it is cheaper than a cloth, but there is labor involved in putting it on, then it wears out, needs to be reapplied, it may block more than you want it to, etc. etc, etc. So, although it may be cheap to acquire the basic paint, after all the labor and shortcomings it has, you end up spending more than on a good shade cloth and you get lesser results. Why bother? -_______________ Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270) NEC America, Inc. 14040 Park Center Dr. Herndon, VA 20171-3227 Voice: 703-834-4273 Fax: 703-787-6613 This message and any attachment are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete the message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the contents to any other person. dreadlox 'at' cwjamaica.c om To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com Sent by: cc: aquaponics-request 'at' t Subject: "Kool Ray" liquid shade ownsqr.com 07/22/01 03:05 AM Please respond to aquaponics Dave could you expand a bit more as to what this is supposed to be and what this was related to?? Is this a paint thingee that one uses on greenhouse glass? Mike. DAVEINBHAM 'at' aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 7/16/01 11:11:37 PM Central Standard Time, > aquaponics-digest-request 'at' townsqr.com writes: > > << For a commercial mix you can buy "Kool Ray" liquid shade. It comes > in Regular and Easy-Off. It is always diluted to achieve the desired degree > of shading, with average dilution of 8 to 1. I have used the Easy-Off and > found it can be washed off with some scrubbing after being baked in the New > Mexico sun. I don't know how well it stands up in high rainfall climates. >> > **************************************************************** > I have used "Kool Ray " here in Alabama where we average 55 inches of rain a > year and it works rather well. > Regards, > Dave | Message 20 Subject: RE: NFT aquaponics From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:50:50 -0500 Thanks for the info! Very interesting and much appreciated. Any thoughts on how it effects DO? Mark | Message 21 Subject: RE: mushrooms From: Andrei.Calciu 'at' hn.va.nec.com Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:10:39 -0400 Guys, stay away from Crop King! They are the most outrageously priced outfit I have ever seen. If you want to do mushrooms you do not have to spend 200+ thousand dollars with Crop King. Why on earth would anybody buy a greenhouse from them for 100 grand, then spend another 100 grand to outfit it, when you can go in your own basement (if big enough and produce mushrooms, and all you need is to install a fan and a heater and a bunch of hooks on the joists to support your mushroom logs. It takes about 2 square feet of space for each mushroom log, so a 500 square foot basement will allow you to have up to 250 logs. That will give you some 4000 pounds of mushroom production. Can you deal with it? -_______________ Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270) NEC America, Inc. 14040 Park Center Dr. Herndon, VA 20171-3227 Voice: 703-834-4273 Fax: 703-787-6613 This message and any attachment are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete the message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the contents to any other person. | Message 22 Subject: Re: NFT aquaponics From: kris book Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:17:59 -0600 It seems to me that a NFT system connected after the effluent leaves the grow bed, would allow a grower to use biofertilizer in conjunction with effluent and then flush the NFT system with a little clean water so the fish tank would never know that the NFT system had been added. That rinse water would be beneficial to an outside garden. This should allow aquaponics growers to raise any plant desired, even the heaviest feeders included. To the untrained mind this seems possible, what do you folks with experience think. Hey Ted are you OK, I haven't heard hardly a peep out of you since your speaking ordeal. kris P.S. Adriana, in the off-list message you sent me on the new certified organic hydroponic nutrient, Metanaturals, you said that all the ingredients were on the new organic guidelines list but, with a serious deficiency. Can you expand on this deficiency | Message 23 Subject: mushrooms From: "Carlos R. Arano" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:28:49 -0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. =_NextPart_000_00A3_01C11362.432F9880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Raul: Only one thing more about mushrooms. You said: > On the other side, carbon dioxide is a need for a plant, but it is a = poison to a mushroom, > though mushrooms "excrete" lots of it. > That is why in the ambients where you cultivate mushrooms, you need a = high level of > ventilation to clean air from that gas. To cultivate mushrooms (Agaricus) to high productivity conditions, it = is convenient to keep the CO2 at a level of about 1000 ppm. Higher it is = a poison to them. At that level they grow better. Carlos R. Arano http://www.geocities.com/c_arano c_arano 'at' bigfoot.com =_NextPart_000_00A3_01C11362.432F9880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
Raul:
Only one thing more about = mushrooms.
You said:
> On the other side, = carbon dioxide is=20 a need for a plant, but it is a poison to a mushroom,
> though = mushrooms=20 "excrete" lots of it.
> That is why in the ambients where you = cultivate=20 mushrooms, you need a high level of
> ventilation to clean air = from that=20 gas.
To cultivate mushrooms (Agaricus) to high productivity = conditions, =20 it is convenient to keep the CO2 at a level of about 1000 ppm. Higher it = is a=20 poison to them. At that level they grow better.
Carlos = R.=20 Arano
http://www.geocities.com/c_aran= o
c_arano 'at' bigfoot.com
<= /BODY> =_NextPart_000_00A3_01C11362.432F9880-- | Message 24 Subject: Re: Outside Aquaponics From: "gutierrez-lagatta" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:14:24 -0500 Lynn, Jim Rakocy's recommendation for the ratio of growbeds to fish is based on 3#'s of feed as the input. This eliminates fish density variations in different systems. A search of the archives should bring this information up, otherwise maybe Dr. R will break his loooooong silence and give us this information one more time. Adriana > ). I understand that stocking density > determines the level of nutrients in the effluent, but that's easy to > change, compared to making the growbeds bigger or smaller once they are in > place. How do I figure out much growbed it takes to handle, say, 10 gallon > per minute flow? | Message 25 Subject: organic hydroponics From: "gutierrez-lagatta" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:43:49 -0500 Kris, The organic regulations state that you can use the "sulfates" that are in the Metanaturals ingredient list but ONLY if you have a DOCUMENTED deficiency of that particular element in your soil. In other words, you can't just use it for any and all applications. Warning - hydroponic and aquaponic certification is not incorporated into the regulations and is viewed as "unnatural" by a number of organic producers .so use of an organic fertilizer will not ensure certifcation. > ingredients were on the new organic guidelines list but, with a serious > deficiency. Can you expand on this deficiency | Message 26 Subject: Re: Outside Aquaponics -Correction From: "gutierrez-lagatta" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:59:15 -0500 Sorry - there is a typo here, it should read "#'s of feed" NOT "3#'s of feed", typing is definitely not my forte. Adriana > Jim Rakocy's recommendation for the ratio of growbeds to fish is based > on 3#'s of feed as the input. This eliminates fish density variations > in different systems. A search of the archives should bring this > information up, otherwise maybe Dr. R will break his loooooong silence > and give us this information one more time. | Message 27 Subject: Re: "Kool Ray" liquid shade From: kris book Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:24:32 -0600 Shade cloth also takes a great deal of strain off of the poly covering of the greenhouse. I know that shade cloth tied to long metal(screed)stakes in the ground was the only reason my greenhouse was still standing after a 100 mph wind came along. kris | Message 28 Subject: Re: organic hydroponics From: kris book Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:29:40 -0600 Adriana, I have no interest in some bureaucracy's view of a product, only if it is safe and healthy to use. Do you see any red flags associated with Metanaturals? kris | Message 29 Subject: Re: Outside Aquaponics From: "gutierrez-lagatta" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:14:24 -0500 Lynn, Jim Rakocy's recommendation for the ratio of growbeds to fish is based on 3#'s of feed as the input. This eliminates fish density variations in different systems. A search of the archives should bring this information up, otherwise maybe Dr. R will break his loooooong silence and give us this information one more time. Adriana > ). I understand that stocking density > determines the level of nutrients in the effluent, but that's easy to > change, compared to making the growbeds bigger or smaller once they are in > place. How do I figure out much growbed it takes to handle, say, 10 gallon > per minute flow? | Message 30 Subject: Re: mushrooms From: Raul Vergueiro Martins Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:58:53 +0100 Hello Carlos: I know that. You are correct. But note that in my message, I said that I was talking in simple words, as things were much more complex than what I was talking about, and that I would not reccomend mushroom for beginners. In other side I told too that, for those who wanted to get in such a culture, I would recommend for them to study carefully the physiology of mushrooms, the traditional systems, and to be prepared for a lot of headaches. I want you to understand, as well as all the friends of this list, that my intention was to say that is is possible the hydroponic culture of mushrooms, as I made it. I told too, that A LOT OF RESEARCH IS NEEDED ON THAT SUBJECT. You know quite well how difficult is to produce QUALITY mushrooms in a comercial scale, for you to get profits with that. So difficult that after many years of work , research and lost money, you closed the doors. You, better than I, are well prepared to advise the friends of this list about mushroom producing. This list is devoted to Aquaponics, an Organic Hydroponic System, and I believe that any kind of system that can improove the basic system about wich we talk here, should have to be presented and discussed. That is why many times I spoke here about agricultural biodigesters. The biological filters used in Aquaculture, are biodigesters. The gravel grow beds used in Paula's system, are biodigesters. The floating beds in Jim Rackocy's system, include a biodigester inside them, though many people don't see it. The water in the Aquaponic System, is a diluted biofertilizer. Can we grow mushrooms Hydroponically? YES. Is it an easy task? NO. No mushroom culture is an easy task. If it was easy, anyone could produce them, and they would not be so expensive. To produce one or two pounds of mushrooms with ready kits as those sold by Crop King, is just a hobby, and not a commercial system. Look at the costs. And finally, correct me if I am wrong, with the money you expend to mount a laboratory and the rooms or houses to produce mushrooms, you can mount two or three greenhouses and related equipment to produce lettuce. Raul Vergueiro Martins rvm 'at' sti.com.br "Carlos R. Arano" wrote: > Raul:Only one thing more about mushrooms.You said:> On the other side, carbon dioxide > is a need for a plant, but it is a poison to a mushroom, > > though mushrooms "excrete" lots of it. > > That is why in the ambients where you cultivate mushrooms, you need a high level of > > ventilation to clean air from that gas. > To cultivate mushrooms (Agaricus) to high productivity conditions, it is convenient to > keep the CO2 at a level of about 1000 ppm. Higher it is a poison to them. At that level > they grow better.Carlos R. Arano > http://www.geocities.com/c_arano > c_arano 'at' bigfoot.com | Message 31 Subject: Outside aquaponics From: "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:06:51 +0200 Hi Attie > I was thinking of using the same method that you just described. Do you > think one will get enough aeration with the return flow? Not unless the water trickling down the pot column was exposed to sufficient air on the way down to become saturated with oxygen and the fish were stocked at low densities. Even then it would be better to buy a slightly larger pump and use the excess purely for spraying back into the water for aeration. In a small setup this is will work fine, but in a commerciaql operation I would recommend using a blower to supply sufficient aeration for the fish tanks. Can we purchase these vertigro type pots here in RSA? > I was thinking of using Vertigro pots just before the water returns to > the fish tank. Since one has a flow rate of about 4 l/h down one column > of pots, the water should be exposed to a lot of air. This is if one can > use gravel, or some other loose material, in the pot as the grow medium. > If there would be enough air movement in the pot column is another > question, since only a small surface area per pot is exposed to the > atmosphere. The way I would do this is to first let the water flow > through the gravel beds by means of gravity. Here one must configure the > piping such as to allow for an ebb and flow cycle in the gravel bed. How have you thought of doing this? > This is crucial for the bacteria living on the gravel as well as for > aeration of the plant roots. Beneficial for both, but not crucial for the bacteria provided that the water has a sufficiently high dissolved oxygen level. > After the gravel bed I would place a sump > with the water pump. An advantage would be that the water at this point > is clean and without any solids and filamentous materials whish can > cause blockages. From the sump, the water is pumped to the top of the > Vertigro pots and than allowed to trickle back to the fish dam. Care > should be taken, with designing of the system, to make sure that the > fish dam water can never drain to a level hazardous to the fish. This is a function of the ratio of the volume of the fish dam and the sum of the volume of the pots. > The only unknowns to me are the level of aeration one can accomplish in > this way and the maximum time the gravel beds can be flooded before > damage to the plant roots or bacteria occurs. In these vertical systems the plants at the top would get the most nutrients and the plant at the bottom the least. Does this not effect the growth of the tower of plants negatively? Regards, Leslie | Message 32 Subject: Re: Outside Aquaponics From: "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:40:05 +0200 Hi Lynn It is possible to theoretically calculate the exact surface area of filter medium, and therefore the volume, required to convert 1kg (2.2lbs for those people not yet on metric) of feed to nitrate, given you know the protein content of the feed. However, there are many variables that can/do affect the accuracy of the result, so you have to build in contingencies, which = inefficiencies. This is the very essence of why purchasing a system such as S&S that has proven itself is a great way to start out. The researchers have done the experimenting for you and can give you the guidelines to work according to for your first set-up. Thereafter you can experiment to your hearts content and you have a control to compare the results against. Regards, Leslie > This is an interesting discussion for me, too, since I'm still in the > planning stage. I have a related question: how do you determine the square > (or is it cubic) footage of growbeds and sumps needed to handle the amount > of effluent coming from the tank? The amount of water coming from the tank > isn't too hard to calculate, as 'X' water changes per hour are recommended > and I'll know the gph of the pump(s). I understand that stocking density > determines the level of nutrients in the effluent, but that's easy to > change, compared to making the growbeds bigger or smaller once they are in > place. How do I figure out much growbed it takes to handle, say, 10 gallon > per minute flow? > Lynn Wigglesworth | Message 33 Subject: RE: mushrooms From: "Carlos R. Arano" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:08:45 -0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. =_NextPart_000_002C_01C1139A.220DB6E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Raul: OK. Now I'm agree with you.=20 In fact, to have a medium size moderatly equiped mushroom industry in = Argentina you need at least 1 million dollars. And I think I can be = short on this quick evaluation. Regards, Carlos R. Arano http://www.geocities.com/c_arano c_arano 'at' bigfoot.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Raul Vergueiro Martins To: Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:58 AM Subject: Re: mushrooms > Hello Carlos: >=20 > I know that. You are correct. > But note that in my message, I said that I was talking in simple = words, as things were > much more complex than what I was talking about, and that I would not = reccomend mushroom > for beginners. > In other side I told too that, for those who wanted to get in such a = culture, I would > recommend for them to study carefully the physiology of mushrooms, the = traditional > systems, and to be prepared for a lot of headaches. > I want you to understand, as well as all the friends of this list, = that my intention was > to say that is is possible the hydroponic culture of mushrooms, as I = made it. > I told too, that A LOT OF RESEARCH IS NEEDED ON THAT SUBJECT. > You know quite well how difficult is to produce QUALITY mushrooms in a = comercial scale, > for you to get profits with that. So difficult that after many years = of work , research > and lost money, you closed the doors. > You, better than I, are well prepared to advise the friends of this = list about mushroom > producing. > This list is devoted to Aquaponics, an Organic Hydroponic System, and = I believe that any > kind of system that can improove the basic system about wich we talk = here, should have to > be presented and discussed. > That is why many times I spoke here about agricultural biodigesters. > The biological filters used in Aquaculture, are biodigesters. > The gravel grow beds used in Paula's system, are biodigesters. > The floating beds in Jim Rackocy's system, include a biodigester = inside them, though many > people don't see it. > The water in the Aquaponic System, is a diluted biofertilizer. > Can we grow mushrooms Hydroponically? YES. > Is it an easy task? NO. No mushroom culture is an easy task. If = it was easy, anyone > could produce them, and they would not be so expensive. > To produce one or two pounds of mushrooms with ready kits as those = sold by Crop King, is > just a hobby, and not a commercial system. Look at the costs. > And finally, correct me if I am wrong, with the money you expend to = mount a laboratory and > the rooms or houses to produce mushrooms, you can mount two or three = greenhouses and > related equipment to produce lettuce. >=20 > Raul Vergueiro Martins > rvm 'at' sti.com.br >=20 > "Carlos R. Arano" wrote: >=20 > > Raul:Only one thing more about mushrooms.You said:> On the other = side, carbon dioxide > > is a need for a plant, but it is a poison to a mushroom, > > > though mushrooms "excrete" lots of it. > > > That is why in the ambients where you cultivate mushrooms, you = need a high level of > > > ventilation to clean air from that gas. > > To cultivate mushrooms (Agaricus) to high productivity conditions, = it is convenient to > > keep the CO2 at a level of about 1000 ppm. Higher it is a poison to = them. At that level > > they grow better.Carlos R. Arano > > http://www.geocities.com/c_arano > > c_arano 'at' bigfoot.com =_NextPart_000_002C_01C1139A.220DB6E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Raul:
OK. Now I'm agree with you.
In fact, to have a medium size moderatly=20 equiped mushroom industry in Argentina you need at least 1 million = dollars.=20 And I think I can be short on this quick evaluation.
Regards,
Carlos R.=20 Arano
http://www.geocities.com/c_aran= o
c_arano 'at' bigfoot.com
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Raul Vergueiro Martins <rvm 'at' sti.com.br>
To: <aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:58 = AM
Subject: Re: mushrooms

> Hello Carlos:
>
> I = know=20 that.   You are correct.
> But note that in my = message,  I=20 said that I was talking in simple words, as things were
> much = more=20 complex than what I was talking about, and that I would not reccomend=20 mushroom
> for beginners.
> In other side I told too that, = for those=20 who wanted to get in such a culture, I would
> recommend for them = to study=20 carefully the physiology of mushrooms, the traditional
> systems, = and to=20 be prepared for a lot of headaches.
> I want you to understand, as = well as=20 all the friends of this list, that my intention was
> to say that = is is=20 possible the hydroponic culture of mushrooms, as I made it.
> I = told too,=20 that A LOT OF RESEARCH IS NEEDED ON THAT SUBJECT.
> You know quite = well=20 how difficult is to produce QUALITY mushrooms in a comercial = scale,
> for=20 you to get profits with that.   So difficult that after many = years of=20 work , research
> and lost money, you closed the doors.
> = You,=20 better than I, are well prepared to advise the friends of this list = about=20 mushroom
> producing.
> This list is devoted to Aquaponics, = an=20 Organic Hydroponic System, and I believe that any
> kind of system = that=20 can improove the basic system about wich we talk here, should have = to
> be=20 presented and discussed.
> That is why many times I spoke here = about=20 agricultural biodigesters.
> The biological filters used in = Aquaculture,=20 are biodigesters.
> The gravel grow beds used in Paula's system, = are=20 biodigesters.
> The floating beds in Jim Rackocy's system, include = a=20 biodigester inside them, though many
> people don't see = it.
> The=20 water in the Aquaponic System, is a diluted biofertilizer.
> Can = we grow=20 mushrooms Hydroponically?   YES.
> Is it an easy=20 task?   NO.   No mushroom culture is an easy=20 task.   If it was easy, anyone
> could produce them, and = they=20 would not be so expensive.
> To produce one or two pounds of = mushrooms=20 with ready kits as those sold by Crop King, is
> just a hobby, and = not a=20 commercial system.   Look at the costs.
> And finally, = correct=20 me if I am wrong, with the money you expend to mount a laboratory = and
>=20 the rooms or houses  to produce mushrooms, you can mount two or = three=20 greenhouses and
> related equipment to produce lettuce.
> =
>=20 Raul Vergueiro Martins
> rvm 'at' sti.com.br
>
> = "Carlos R.=20 Arano" wrote:
>
> >   Raul:Only one thing more = about=20 mushrooms.You said:> On the other side, carbon dioxide
> > = is a need=20 for a plant, but it is a poison to a mushroom,
> > > though=20 mushrooms "excrete" lots of it.
> > > That is why in the = ambients=20 where you cultivate mushrooms, you need a high level of
> > = >=20 ventilation to clean air from that gas.
> > To cultivate = mushrooms=20 (Agaricus) to high productivity conditions,  it is convenient = to
>=20 > keep the CO2 at a level of about 1000 ppm. Higher it is a poison to = them.=20 At that level
> > they grow better.Carlos R. Arano
> > = http://www.geocities.com/c_aran= o
>=20 > c_arano 'at' bigfoot.com
= =_NextPart_000_002C_01C1139A.220DB6E0-- | Message 34 Subject: Re: mushrooms From: Raul Vergueiro Martins Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:54:33 +0100 Hello Carlos: Finally we agree in something :>) So this is science Raul Vergueiro Martins rvm 'at' sti.com.br "Carlos R. Arano" wrote: > Raul:OK. Now I'm agree with you.In fact, to have a medium size moderatly equiped > mushroom industry in Argentina you need at least 1 million dollars. And I think I can be > short on this quick evaluation.Regards,Carlos R. Arano > http://www.geocities.com/c_arano > c_arano 'at' bigfoot.com ----- Original Message -----From: Raul Vergueiro Martins > To: Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:58 AMSubject: > Re: mushrooms > Hello Carlos: > > > > I know that. You are correct. > > But note that in my message, I said that I was talking in simple words, as things > were > > much more complex than what I was talking about, and that I would not reccomend > mushroom > > for beginners. > > In other side I told too that, for those who wanted to get in such a culture, I would > > recommend for them to study carefully the physiology of mushrooms, the traditional > > systems, and to be prepared for a lot of headaches. > > I want you to understand, as well as all the friends of this list, that my intention > was > > to say that is is possible the hydroponic culture of mushrooms, as I made it. > > I told too, that A LOT OF RESEARCH IS NEEDED ON THAT SUBJECT. > > You know quite well how difficult is to produce QUALITY mushrooms in a comercial > scale, > > for you to get profits with that. So difficult that after many years of work , > research > > and lost money, you closed the doors. > > You, better than I, are well prepared to advise the friends of this list about > mushroom > > producing. > > This list is devoted to Aquaponics, an Organic Hydroponic System, and I believe that > any > > kind of system that can improove the basic system about wich we talk here, should have > to > > be presented and discussed. > > That is why many times I spoke here about agricultural biodigesters. > > The biological filters used in Aquaculture, are biodigesters. > > The gravel grow beds used in Paula's system, are biodigesters. > > The floating beds in Jim Rackocy's system, include a biodigester inside them, though > many > > people don't see it. > > The water in the Aquaponic System, is a diluted biofertilizer. > > Can we grow mushrooms Hydroponically? YES. > > Is it an easy task? NO. No mushroom culture is an easy task. If it was easy, > anyone > > could produce them, and they would not be so expensive. > > To produce one or two pounds of mushrooms with ready kits as those sold by Crop King, > is > > just a hobby, and not a commercial system. Look at the costs. > > And finally, correct me if I am wrong, with the money you expend to mount a laboratory > and > > the rooms or houses to produce mushrooms, you can mount two or three greenhouses and > > related equipment to produce lettuce. > > > > Raul Vergueiro Martins > > rvm 'at' sti.com.br > > > > "Carlos R. Arano" wrote: > > > > > Raul:Only one thing more about mushrooms.You said:> On the other side, carbon > dioxide > > > is a need for a plant, but it is a poison to a mushroom, > > > > though mushrooms "excrete" lots of it. > > > > That is why in the ambients where you cultivate mushrooms, you need a high level > of > > > > ventilation to clean air from that gas. > > > To cultivate mushrooms (Agaricus) to high productivity conditions, it is convenient > to > > > keep the CO2 at a level of about 1000 ppm. Higher it is a poison to them. At that > level > > > they grow better.Carlos R. Arano > > > http://www.geocities.com/c_arano > > > c_arano 'at' bigfoot.com | Message 35 Subject: Re: Fish Species for Aquaponics From: "STEVE SPRING" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:23:31 -0500 Hi Kris, I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as you are with greenhouse production. I even had to print out your response to be sure that I responded to all aspects. You are 100% correct that I am totally ignorant (my words) with CO2 injection. (I also wish to remain that way.) (Also, with bumblebees I don't even like mosquitoes much less being stung to death by an angry bumblebee swarm.) Besides this, you stated that " raising CO2 levels alone will only boost production a small amount". No, my grow-lights are not on "light movers". This is something else that I might have to invest in. Now, on to hybrid bluegills vs. Pacu. 2 things that I'm going to do that I know absolutely nothing about. I've tried Perch, bluegills & catfish in my pond. Well, the catfish ate ALL of the perch and bluegills. I now have a bunch of sh.t fish in my pond. They are a result of the Koi breeding. I'm hoping the remaining catfish eat all of them before it is time to restock. If not, I'll have to "kill" the pond. On this note, does anyone know anything about "shocking" the pond. I understand this can be done without killing everything. Pacu: I'm still waiting for a reasonable price for stocking them. I will be stocking these in my recirculating system. You see, I have 2 systems: my aquaculture system (the pond) and my aquaponics system (the farm). I should know more about the above-mentioned in a couple of months. As far as your thinking that this post may be off-topic, I can't think of a more "right on" topic than this. Yours truly .Steve (Hope to see ya in NC) ----- Original Message ----- From: "kris book" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 12:50 PM Subject: Re: Fish Species for Aquaponics Steve, My wife, Allison and I grew organic veggies year round for 7 years at about 6,000 feet above sea level. We actually had better crops in the middle of winter because the is no heat build up, and we didn't have to vent as often to maintain a good temperature parameters. I'm not sure if you're versed in CO2 injection but, I'll assume that you're not. I found that most plants thrive with up to 2,000 ppm(parts per million), more than that becomes toxic to the plants. It's hard on human breathing too but, I got used to it. The air we breathe averages about 300 ppm. When levels are that high (2,000ppm), it's best to only spend a few minutes at a time in the greenhouse. The best time to inject CO2 is about 3 hours after sun up and for about three hours keep the levels at 2,000 or until the greenhouse gets so warm that you have to vent. I should mention that I was using a semi organic hydroponic system, not aquaponics but, I believe that tanks could be fitted with removable lids to keep all that CO2 out of the fish tanks for the 3 hours that you are injecting. At this point I should add that raising CO2 levels alone will only boost production a small amount. Plants need a balance of increased light, nutrients, and CO2 to make a big difference in yield. When this balance is achieved, plants can thrive on a nutrient solution that would have burned your plants without extra light and CO2. Plants grown in this enhanced environment can take a lot more heat, as long as they receive extra moisture too. 100 degrees is acceptable, as long as the total balance is there. I think I remember you mentioning gro-lights in your greenhouse. Are they on light movers. This is very important to give all the plants equal light or the plants on the fringe will suffer very much. I hope to visit some day and see your operation. When I start my aquaponics system, I think I'll go with bluegill hybrids, unless your pacu prove to be as versatile. If there are people out there that think that this post is off-topic, please speak up and I'll take future posts like this to a private place. I think that it is important to make production equal twelve months a year, in any climate. k | Message 36 Subject: Re: Let's leave a list for Paula From: dreadlox 'at' cwjamaica.com Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:18:27 -0700 Kris, as an oldtimer here I can say this (David Atkinson said it all so well already) . we LOOSE each time we set up a new list. I HAVE tried setting up a list for folks in this side of the world with inputs relevant to US here, but U know what?? I found that i STILL had to cut and paste good topics from our list here for them to get the message. My idea of setting up a Jamaica specific group wasnt WRONG, but I am speaking from experience when I say that taking away from the group's energy helps weaken the potency of this group. As Pablo said (Heyyyy Pablo, welcome back ) we HAVE discussed this "biogas" thing in the past, it wasnt a sin then, and Raul, Adrianna and others apparently worked hard at an actual biodigester design OFFLIST. Kris, I must be honest when I say a few folks who are complaining are not known to me as "regulars", that is not to say their voice is not important, it is just to say, they MAY have not appreciated the openness that was once here on this list. That is fine a list is dynamic. Just be careful about splitting up . (Sidebar Jamaica has the most rum bars and churches in the world per square km. so we know what we are talking about .lol) So you have the key to the digestion list. I will resubscribe too Is it a suggestion to just let us all interested in this BIODIGESTION thing subscribe there .?? We can all gang up on the brains there and not only the brains there are challenged and stimulated but we also maintain the "potency" here without having to take anything "outside". This way we dont have a "sedgeway" group feeling like the ORIGINAL group is so formal we CANT discuss things here. Again, let me say, we have NEVER had so many mails re hurt feelings and unsubs as we have in the last 2 months Can all interested in biodigestion then sign on oever at CREST?? Thanks for telling us how it worked Kris. All groups at CREST can be subscribed to as you said. (same format). In all the years Ive been here Ive NEVER seen Paula act as a draconian lady who cant wait to "buzz" offenders . and believe me "I" have offended. How about sending MASSIVE pictures/files to the list for starters by mistake? Calm cool and easy. Paula is not in the least as "scary" as some would have her seem. I think she clearly stated her open door policy, so we need not be too touchy about what is discussed and what not, as long as REASONABLE connection can be drawn by the topic we wish to discuss to AQUAPONICS. I said before, this biodigestion topic has to do with, --- > Hydronic heating of greenhouses burning biogas, --- > Direct heating with biogas burners --- > Sterilization of nutrient water using gas. --- > Getting rid of fish poop, and compost from clarifiers --- > Increasing CO2 levels in greenhouses with natural gases.--- > POWERING our reserve power systems with biogas/diesel gensets. etc etc etc. I dont know how this is NOT relevant to aqua/hydroponics. I can however appreciate when we begin tooo technical that it irks some folks. See there is no need to be scared, just considerate! Ok, Im headed over to digestion 'at' CREST now too!! Any others coming??? Mike JAMAICA kris book wrote: > > Mike, > > Getting on that digestion list was a real pain. I even ended up at the > home page and copied the instructions and that didn't work either. Then I > sent three different e-mails moving the "subscribe" to different places > and finally I sent it like this and it worked. > digestionsubscribe 'at' crest.org in the send to box and everything else > blank. > > Look everyone, it has been 9 days since the first mushroom and > biodigester discussion began. I have received 5 personal requests to > continue off-line and we've had 7 or 8 members voice their opinion to > continue on the aquqaponics list. | Message 37 Subject: Re: On and Off Topic Ponderings (Not Too Long) From: marc 'at' aculink.net Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:37:11 -0600 As a response to some posts on the Sunday Digest: For what it's worth I am considering the end of involvement with the Aquaponics Newsgroup for two reasons: 1. The elitist arrogance of self declared creative and lateral thinkers who cared little for the protests of others and responded with off topic intellectual retching and flatus designed to discount the protesters wants, needs and desires. 2. The incredible amount of off topic BS that fills my mailbox each day. (Offended by the above? There is hope. Counseling by a qualified person with lots of hard recovery work and many people make significant gains with some living out a reasonably productive life.) Today I got NINETY FIVE THOUSAND BYTES - 95 KB - from the Aquaponics newsgroup on the digest list. Some on topic but lots of BEEEEEEEE ESSSSSSSSSS which belongs on other newsgroups or in chat rooms IMHO. Regarding my offensiveness - as a social visionary and sensitive person who has a high level of concern and consideration for others once said: "Normally, I wouldn't pay much attention to complaining" so was profoundly inspired to emulate this advanced social vision for world betterment. We can all learn from creative lateral thinkers. Of course my desires are irrelevant in the greater scheme of things. Just do the creative lateral stinking - oops - thinking thing and I'm another piece of road kill on the sole of an Olympian gods boot. Squisho Minimus, Marc | Message 38 Subject: Re: Let's leave a list for Paula From: "Arlos" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:09:26 -0700 Mike, I have to agree on every point including the church and rum shop. it was the same living on Virgin Gorda where rum was cheaper than fruit juice. Arlos -----Original Message----- From: dreadlox 'at' cwjamaica.com To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com Date: Monday, July 23, 2001 6:14 PM Subject: Re: Let's leave a list for Paula >Kris, as an oldtimer here I can say this (David Atkinson said it all >so well already) . we LOOSE each time we set up a new list. I HAVE >tried setting up a list for folks in this side of the world with inputs >relevant to US here, but U know what?? I found that i STILL had to cut >and paste good topics from our list here for them to get the message. My >idea of setting up a Jamaica specific group wasnt WRONG, but I am >speaking from experience when I say that taking away from the group's >energy helps weaken the potency of this group. As Pablo said (Heyyyy >Pablo, welcome back ) we HAVE discussed this "biogas" thing in the >past, it wasnt a sin then, and Raul, Adrianna and others apparently >worked hard at an actual biodigester design OFFLIST. > >Kris, I must be honest when I say a few folks who are complaining are >not known to me as "regulars", that is not to say their voice is not >important, it is just to say, they MAY have not appreciated the openness >that was once here on this list. That is fine a list is dynamic. >Just be careful about splitting up . (Sidebar Jamaica has the most >rum bars and churches in the world per square km. so we know what we are >talking about .lol) >So you have the key to the digestion list. >I will resubscribe too > >Is it a suggestion to just let us all interested in this BIODIGESTION >thing subscribe there .?? We can all gang up on the brains there and >not only the brains there are challenged and stimulated but we also >maintain the "potency" here without having to take anything "outside". >This way we dont have a "sedgeway" group feeling like the ORIGINAL group >is so formal we CANT discuss things here. > >Again, let me say, we have NEVER had so many mails re hurt feelings and >unsubs as we have in the last 2 months > >Can all interested in biodigestion then sign on oever at CREST?? > >Thanks for telling us how it worked Kris. All groups at CREST can be >subscribed to as you said. (same format). >In all the years Ive been here Ive NEVER seen Paula act as a draconian >lady who cant wait to "buzz" offenders . and believe me "I" have >offended. How about sending MASSIVE pictures/files to the list for >starters by mistake? Calm cool and easy. Paula is not in the least as >"scary" as some would have her seem. I think she clearly stated her open >door policy, so we need not be too touchy about what is discussed and >what not, as long as REASONABLE connection can be drawn by the topic we >wish to discuss to AQUAPONICS. >I said before, this biodigestion topic has to do with, > >--- > Hydronic heating of greenhouses burning biogas, >--- > Direct heating with biogas burners >--- > Sterilization of nutrient water using gas. >--- > Getting rid of fish poop, and compost from clarifiers >--- > Increasing CO2 levels in greenhouses with natural gases.>--- > POWERING our reserve power systems with biogas/diesel gensets. > >etc etc etc. I dont know how this is NOT relevant to aqua/hydroponics. I >can however appreciate when we begin tooo technical that it irks some >folks.> >See there is no need to be scared, just considerate! >Ok, Im headed over to digestion 'at' CREST now too!! Any others coming??? > > >Mike >JAMAICA > > > > > >kris book wrote: >> >> Mike, >> >> Getting on that digestion list was a real pain. I even ended up at the >> home page and copied the instructions and that didn't work either. Then I >> sent three different e-mails moving the "subscribe" to different places >> and finally I sent it like this and it worked. >> digestionsubscribe 'at' crest.org in the send to box and everything else >> blank. >> >> Look everyone, it has been 9 days since the first mushroom and >> biodigester discussion began. I have received 5 personal requests to >> continue off-line and we've had 7 or 8 members voice their opinion to >> continue on the aquqaponics list. > | Message 39 Subject: Re: my system diagrams From: "David Atkinson" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:18:30 -0400 Hi Mike, I was able to access the diagrams. I have the latest version of WinZip. Had to unzip the files first before I was able to view the contents. David A. (atkindw 'at' cybervale.com) http://www.symmcorp.com/datkinson "Your health is our concern" ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 5:00 PM Subject: Re: my system diagrams > Was anyone able to get to these pics?? They dont seem to work for me > :( . > > Mike > > | Message 40 Subject: Luminescence on Fish body From: dreadlox 'at' cwjamaica.com Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:36:28 -0700 Does anyone have any experiences with fish diseases that seem to give of a light eerie glow?? Likewise, am I just seeing things when I see changes in coloration when the tilapia females are swishing eggs? (in the mouth) For the first question, this is happening to some siclets. Im wondering if it just them going through puberty and getting their green epaulettes?? :> Thanks for any replies Mike. | Message 41 Subject: Re: On and Off Topic Ponderings (Not Too Long) From: kris book Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:56:54 -0600 Marc, I think you want the wine list. kris | Message 42 Subject: Fw: Re: lists From: kris book Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:42:33 -0600 --- Forwarded message ---- From: "STEVE SPRING" To: "kris book" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:52:33 -0500 Subject: Re: lists Message-ID: <005c01c113da$ed837c20$af56cfa9 'at' pcareplus> References: <20010718.233053.-1317035.14.krisbook 'at' juno.com> Hi Kris, I don't think that I have to check any posts. I may be an outlaw on this list, but, pls. remember that I am one who will try something unique and possibly lose money, but I will try it anyway and report this to the list. For example, I can't wait to report on my growing of Stella de Ora daylillies and Cannas in my pond. Tremendous success.(Idea from Aquaponics Journal.) I'm also the first on this list to break with the traditional Tilapia and to try Pacu. I may be "Mr. Socially Insensitive" but I am not afraid to try something different and report the results. I'm also trying basil in the growbeds. Not only seeds, but basil cuttings. And not using growlights, but using fluorescent lights .GREAT SUCCESS! (100%) Also trying peach tree saplings to grow peach trees still in the process! I hope to be taking some pictures tomorrow and will be sending these to the list in the next few days. FELLOW LIST MEMBERS: DON'T BE AFRAID OF A VIRUS WHEN YOU SEE AN ATTACHMENT FROM ME. Just open it. It will be a picture of something. Hope to see ya'll in NC! Later .Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "kris book" To: Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 12:30 AM Subject: Re: lists Steve, Check Paula's post from earlier today, I been checking it out and you're going to have to follow the instructions and stay on topic. Hey, check out the new aquaponics list, they have 5 members already. Technical only , you know! LOL Back to the pacu, what's the minimum water temp that they can thrive in. And do you think they will coexist with bluegill? k | Message 43 Subject: Re: Luminescence on Fish body From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:58:22 -0500 At 10:36 PM 07/23/2001 -0700, Mike wrote: >Does anyone have any experiences with fish diseases that seem to give of >a light eerie glow?? >For the first question, this is happening to some siclets. Im wondering >if it just them going through puberty and getting their green >epaulettes?? :> Mike, I'm not the "fish person" here, but we have an executive (from Monsanto, no less!) who stops by each year after his annual vacation in the Ozarks to buy a half dozen small fish for his aquarium(s). After helping him choose his fish a couple years, it's very evident that some of the small tilapia have quite a bit of coloration (on towards green, "shimmery" if that's a word, and sort of shifting). I don't think it's unusual, but since we don't normally have any in glass aquariums it's just something we hadn't seen. I do think they lose this before they reach market size, and I would be very interested if it's an indication of disease of any sort. Paula S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124 Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/ | Message 44 Subject: Attachments and graphics & lists From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:10:00 -0500 At 09:42 PM 07/23/2001 -0600, Kris forwarded from Steve Spring: >I hope to be taking some pictures tomorrow and will be sending these to >the >list in the next few days. FELLOW LIST MEMBERS: DON'T BE AFRAID OF A >VIRUS WHEN YOU SEE AN ATTACHMENT FROM ME. Just open it. It will be a picture >of something. Steve - if you'll remember, not very long ago we had some problems with attachments and just because you say it's safe doesn't mean that people will feel secure in opening it. There is a size maximum per post, and I don't think your pictures will clear it. How about putting them on a website and posting the URL? Kris wrote: >Steve, > >Check Paula's post from earlier today, I been checking it out and you're >going to have to follow the instructions and stay on topic. Kris - While I think it's important to stay relevant to aquaponics, I don't think I mentioned anything on the 19th except to eliminate the HTML posts and peoples' habit of quoting back entire threads in every post. I can guarantee you that a lot more light-hearted posts would be tolerated if they didn't contain everything that had already been posted on the subject. >Hey, check >out the new aquaponics list, they have 5 members already. Technical only >, you know! LOL And you've taken it where? Paula S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124 Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

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