Aquaponics Digest - Thu 07/26/01



Message   1: RE: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 07/24/01
             from "Mark Allen Wells"


Message   2: RE: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 07/24/01 (PS)
             from "Mark Allen Wells"


Message   3: Re: Aquaponics, Sales, Grower Attitude
             from marc 'at' aculink.net

Message   4: RE: Hanging Pots V Growbeds
             from "Hurst, Steve ( China)"


Message   5: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
             from "Attie Esterhuyse"


Message   6: Safety
             from "Pete and Diana Scholtens"


Message   7: Re: Safety
             from "Arlos"


Message   8: Hanging pots vs grow beds
             from kris book 

Message   9: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
             from "Nick" 

Message  10: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
             from "gerry magnuson"


Message  11: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
             from Andrei.Calciu 'at' hn.va.nec.com

Message  12: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
             from "gerry magnuson"


Message  13: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
             from "Arlos"


Message  14: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
             from "Arlos"


Message  15: RE: Safety
             from "Chris Jeppesen" 

Message  16: Instrumentation
             from "Mark Allen Wells"


Message  17: NC workshop
             from Andrei.Calciu 'at' hn.va.nec.com

Message  18: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
             from "Chris Jeppesen" 

Message  19: RE: Aquaponics, Sales, Grower Attitude
             from "Mark Allen Wells"


Message  20: Measurements
             from Andrei.Calciu 'at' hn.va.nec.com

Message  21: Re: Safety
             from kris book 

Message  22: it is always good to have visitors as you
say
             from "gerry magnuson"


Message  23: Re: Safety
             from "gerry magnuson"


Message  24: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
             from marc 'at' aculink.net

Message  25: Fw: Resources List
             from kris book 

Message  26: Re: Instrumentation
             from "Thomas Short" 

Message  27: Re: no thanks
             from kris book 

Message  28: Re: no thanks
             from kris book 

Message  29: Lightning protection
             from "Arlos"


Message  30: RE: Instrumentation
             from "Mark Allen Wells"


Message  31: Re: Biogas
             from "Brent Bingham" 

Message  32: RE: Biogas
             from "Mark Allen Wells"


Message  33: Re: Greenwater sludge>>methane
             from "Brent Bingham" 

Message  34: RE: Greenwater sludge>>methane
             from "Mark Allen Wells"


Message  35: Re: Greenwater sludge>>methane
             from "Brent Bingham" 

Message  36: New Business
             from "Leon Klopfenstein"


Message  37: Re: Lightning protection
             from Peggy & Emmett


Message  38: RE: Hanging pots vs grow beds
             from "Hurst, Steve ( China)"


Message  39: RE: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
             from "Hurst, Steve ( China)"


Message  40: Re: Hanging pots vs grow beds
             from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce
Schreiber)

Message  41: Re: Hanging pots vs grow beds
             from kris book 

Message  42: RE: Greenwater sludge>>methane
             from "Hurst, Steve ( China)"


Message  43: Re: Hanging pots vs grow beds
             from kris book 

Message  44: Re: helping shy lurkers
             from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce
Schreiber)

Message  45: Re: Hanging pots vs grow beds
             from fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce
Schreiber)

Message  46: Fwd.  new insurance program to target the
fast-growing fish
  farming
             from S & S Aqua Farm


Message  47: RE: Greenwater sludge>>methane
             from "Mark Allen Wells"


Message  48: RE: Hanging pots vs grow beds
             from "Hurst, Steve ( China)"


Message  49: Need pumps?
             from "Thomas Short" 

| Message 1

Subject: RE: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 07/24/01
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 00:33:17 -0500

>Have you ever considered psychoanalysis ? It can be
quite helpfull in
dealing
with stressfull situations.

LOL
.been there done that.  No worries friend. I'm
fine. The
only reasons those apologies came up was in RESPONSE
to others,
not a need to use this forum as therapy
.LOL.  I'm an
open
book
.sometimes too open for my own good

but it's
who I
am.  My apology to marc and my explanation of why I
write the
way that I do has served it's purpose
.to turn a bad
situation
into a good one
.I was an elitist, now I am a friend.
I know
what the list is for and if you read the questions I
have been
asking you will see that
.*smiling*.  When I say that
this list
and group has reconnected me with something I lost, it
is in
appreciation and in thanks
.many give a lot of
themselves to make
this work.  Although I am new, I try to also.  Back to
fish and
plants now
.LOL
.take care.
Mark

| Message 2

Subject: RE: Aquaponics Digest - Tue 07/24/01 (PS)
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 00:40:33 -0500

>Have you ever considered psychoanalysis ? It can be
quite helpfull in
dealing with stressfull situations.

ps
NONE of the therapy that I went through has helped
as much
as playing with my fish
.LOL.  

| Message 3

Subject: Re: Aquaponics, Sales, Grower Attitude
From:    marc 'at' aculink.net
Date:    Wed, 25 Jul 2001 23:57:48 -0600

I think this is significant in terms of success in
Aquaponics.

I rarely hear of reasonably intelligent, talented and
hard
working folks failing to produce a product.

I do hear of those that have gobs of product and NO
SALES.

What Mark is presenting is not a smiley face - he
presents a
commitment to valuing relationships by the willingness
to
pursue, risk rejection and nurture them without a
price tag. 

Business returns are often considered directly
proportional
to risk and Mark is hanging it out there to get a kick
in
the teeth. A few folks will but I put my money on most
folks
feeling a trust and letting their guard down. As long
as
Mark can weather the "kicks" I think he'll have a
solid
following.

I have heard most often that 80% of the battle is the
people
part.

In other words - after one gets the fish a growing
whatcha
going to do with them?

Marc Nameth

Mark Allen Wells wrote:

.> asking you will see that
.*smiling*.  When I say
that
this list
> and group has reconnected me with something I lost,
it is in
> appreciation and in thanks
.many give a lot of
themselves to make
> this work.  Although I am new, I try to also.  Back
to fish and
> plants now
.LOL
.take care.> 
> Mark

| Message 4

Subject: RE: Hanging Pots V Growbeds
From:    "Hurst, Steve ( China)" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:31:04 +0800

Hi Guys,
 Newbie question, I have been following the thread
about Hanging pots,
and I am a bit confused.
What advantage is there to using Hanging pots
as opposed to a grow bed ?
Only thing I can think of, is maybe its good for space
conservation,
or maybe certain types of plants grow better in
hanging pots.

Am I missing something here ?

Apreciate any help with this.
Steve H

| Message 5

Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
From:    "Attie Esterhuyse" 
Date:    26 Jul 2001 12:37:20 +0200

Arlos

What you say is valid. I also work in an industrial
environment and have played
around with an old 12 V DC battery and generator/motor
on the farm when I was a
kid. One must never touch any electrical circuit if it
is not properly isolated,
since you never know what current is flowing or what
the potential difference
might be.  Anything can have some danger if you use it
incorrectly, I agree, but
all this does not mean that one must be afraid to
change your motor vehicles 12
V battery. Remember that the one terminal (-) of the
battery is connected to the
metal of the vehicle itself. When you test a solar
panel you do a short circuit
test, which means that you place the ammeter in the
circuit and record the
current flowing. Nobody that I know of ever got
shocked doing this. As you said,
it is only when you disconnect the circuit that
something might happen. How
large was that PV installation, must have been quite a
current flowing.

Me personally think that the risk of a child drowning
in a fishpond is a lot
greater then any serious injury from a 12 V DC pump.
Maybe the child can put his
fingers in the impeller, but that is also very
unlikely. All in all it is a lot
saver to use low current DC in a wet environment than
AC. If the equipment is
properly earthed, nothing serious should happen.
Swimming pool pump motors are
220 V AC, in my part of the world, probably 110 V AC
in yours. Does any one of
us think twice before we jump in the swimming pool?
Maybe if the water is very
cold yes, but definitely not because there is an
electrical motor somewhere. On
farms we use submersible pumps in boreholes. These
pumps are three phase and
running on 380 V AC. The design is such that the motor
rotor actually runs in a
water glycol mixture. The glycol is added as bearing
lubricant. After one has
loaded a lot of alfalfa (Lucerne) bales in the hot
sun, there is nothing better
then to drink some cold water straight from the
borehole. So there is plenty of
electricity close to water.

Best regards,

Attie

Arlos wrote:

> Bruce,
>
>   Aside from you, Attie, myself and others may
handle an electrical device
> regardless of line voltage. I would never never
imply its safety due to
> liability. Though a 12v pump may be considered a toy
when compared to a 480
> 3 phase VAC pump. I've been zapped enough times
working on remote SCATA
> systems which were low voltage DC PV systems with 12
VDC battery back up
> built without disconnects. Mark, Mike and anyone
else having worked around
> industrial equipment  are oriented to the use of a
"Lockout/ Tagout"
> training which would include not walking into a body
of water with a pump of
> any rating. Carolyns or anyone else's use of a PV
array is a perfect conduit
> for lightning  in the wrong location. Caution on the
side of error in this
> case may be a bit over the top but not knowing site
specifics I still stand
> with an earlier statement to get a licensed
electrical contractor. In an age
> where "Attorneys Roamed the Earth", we all walk on
egg shells. Carolyn's
> attempt here to leave no stone unturned is as Martha
say's, "A good Thing".
>   Fish and plants< just to make note I hadn't gone
to far off topic.
>
> Arlos
>
> Side bar; in a small commercial harbor (Moss
Landing) on the Monterey Bay,
> many old timers use 200 amp automotive alternators
on their boats and where
> this is suspected, neighboring boats have their
through hulls and zinc
> plates eaten away in a matter of months. ( Though I
suspect the large
> Pacific Gas and electric plant setting on the edge
of the harbor ( now Duke
> energy) may contribute a tad to the errant current
issue) The harbor has
> always been hot. Granted electrolysis is only the
by product of either bad
> grounding or
. ( ok tekkies, rapid release of the
hydrongen ion)? Corrosion
> protection is still a developing science and to a
certain extent would apply
> to the group especially if metal tanks, piping,
weirs, gates, handrails and
> catwalks that come into contact with process water
are used. Bonding loops
> and even anchor bolts can be eaten away. Electricity
and water do not make a
> good marriage. No one was ever hurt by being too
safe.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Schreiber 
> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com 
> Date: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:02 AM
> Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
>
> I agree with Attie on the fishing boat I've been in
water up to my arm
> pits fixing submurged bilge pumps while it was
running quite safely its
> not hazardous like 120v. or 240v. or I would be dead
many times over
>                    Bruce

| Message 6

Subject: Safety
From:    "Pete and Diana Scholtens"

Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:46:42 -0700

Chris said:
My worst night mare is that the tops of my return
sumps are just at floor
level and i worry about a stray child. Liability aside
that is not a happy
tought.

Has anyone had any bad experiences like this? This is
my biggest fear about
setting up a system as well. My two year old son has a
fascination with
water and fish. Any tank of water will draw him in
like bees to honey, and
would even more if he knew there was fish in the
water.

What have people done increase safety?

Pete Scholtens
Langley, BC

| Message 7

Subject: Re: Safety
From:    "Arlos" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 07:25:51 -0700

Peter,

  Are your systems in an enclosed area that can be
made child resistant such
as a lockable gate or door? Any perimeter security is
the first  line of
safety. Two year olds seem to be programmed for auto
destruct. They are like
water, they seek their own level and any leak in your
attempt to make their
world safe and they'll find it. All electrical panels
that are UL rate can
be locked. Sumps should have a tamper resistant split
lid that is bolted
down. Motor drive couples should have shields, this
includes belt drives.
Keep ladders down when not in use and not stored
standing up. Toddlers don't
read safety & warning signs (but can understand
symbols). Chemicals, feeds,
fuels and their metering or measuring containers kept
up off the ground and
in lockable cabinets. The number one safety rule (I
went through this too
but my 2 year old grew up on me overnight and is now
in college) Never talk
to a child like they are a blank slate (Francis
Bacon.) They understand far
more than we give them credit for. I don't know if
they ever stop trying to
expand their limits (mine doesn't and I still don't).
Know the numbers and
have them posted for "Poison Control Centers". Learn
infant CPR and stay
current. To a child, you are 911 (emergency phone
number for those outside
the US.) Have a visual universal sign posted
everywhere there is a perceived
danger and have your child know it to the point of
telling others (they
develope this  extremely annoying habit of asking WHY
at about three and
they are good at parroting other pieces of info by
that age too.) and the
one that always ends in under tragic circumstances,
never leave a child
alone, even for a minute.To put it in technical terms,
they are great
indicators of environmental stress. Give them a safe
home. As my wife just
piped in, bring over another parent of a two year old
and they'll root out
any problem.
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete and Diana Scholtens 
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com 
Date: Thursday, July 26, 2001 6:44 AM
Subject: Safety

>Chris said:
>My worst night mare is that the tops of my return
sumps are just at floor
>level and i worry about a stray child. Liability
aside that is not a happy
>tought.
>
>Has anyone had any bad experiences like this? This is
my biggest fear about
>setting up a system as well. My two year old son has
a fascination with
>water and fish. Any tank of water will draw him in
like bees to honey, and
>would even more if he knew there was fish in the
water.
>
>What have people done increase safety?
>
>Pete Scholtens
>Langley, BC
>
>

| Message 8

Subject: Hanging pots vs grow beds
From:    kris book 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:56:57 -0600

Steve,

Take a look at the link, click on hydro farm and then
look at the bottom
left picture. I think you'll easily see that hanging
pots on the north
wall are about equal in plant area to the grow beds on
the floor. To me
that means, twice as much harvest in the same growing
area. One isn't
better than the other but together they can make the
difference between
success and failure, monetarily speaking. It does seem
likely that a
person wouldn't set up hanging pots on both sides of
the greenhouse
because the row on the south side  would shade the
rest of the growing
area, except in summer when the sun is directly
overhead. Come to think
of it, there are lots of plants like spinach that
don't need much
sunlight to thrive. What do you think, back at ya.

kris

http://www.aerialad.net/hydrofarm/index.htm

| Message 9

Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
From:    "Nick" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:46:39 -0700

I believe the biggest problem area in low voltage DC
applications is under
the condition where an arc is formed.  i.e.
commutating between brushes and
a slip ring assembly or commutator,
connection/disconnection with even small
loads.  When an arc is formed, a broad band of AC
components is created, at
varying potentials depenant on such things as the
voltage, load, and method
of commutation. To prove this to yourself, take a 9
volt battery and connect
one of its terminals to a common
metalworking/woodworking file/rasp, take
another wire from the other terminal of the battery,
and strike the wire up
and down the serrations of the file/rasp while
listening to an AM radio.
This seldom works with an FM radio as most electircal
arc/spark cause
amplitude modulated interference, and FM's inherent
rejection of AM signals
will "filter" it out or reject it.

As to the safety of working on/around low voltage DC,
it is what we use in
the greeenhouse and fish tanks.  None of the fish have
floated up and we
have not been shocked.  I have sloshed around in
marine situations in the
bilges while working on active flood alarm systems.
Our electrical safety
program starts at a voltage level of 32 volts DC
except for
training/precautions to prevent arcing/shorting with
tools which can/will
burn by thermal means, and battery acid spill/splash
concerns.

Your mileage may vary.

| Message 10

Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
From:    "gerry magnuson" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 05:13:55 -1000

I am at a lost as to why people, children, are allowed
in the greenhouse in 
the first place
.the possible diseases brought into a
greenhouse by others 
would be a primary concern, thus eliminating any
worries about children and 
such
.sanitation at the entrance, and cleanliness
throughout are more 
important.

>From: "Nick" 
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>To: 
>Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:46:39 -0700
>
>I believe the biggest problem area in low voltage DC
applications is under
>the condition where an arc is formed.  i.e.
commutating between brushes and
>a slip ring assembly or commutator,
connection/disconnection with even 
>small
>loads.  When an arc is formed, a broad band of AC
components is created, at
>varying potentials depenant on such things as the
voltage, load, and method
>of commutation. To prove this to yourself, take a 9
volt battery and 
>connect
>one of its terminals to a common
metalworking/woodworking file/rasp, take
>another wire from the other terminal of the battery,
and strike the wire up
>and down the serrations of the file/rasp while
listening to an AM radio.
>This seldom works with an FM radio as most electircal
arc/spark cause
>amplitude modulated interference, and FM's inherent
rejection of AM signals
>will "filter" it out or reject it.
>
>As to the safety of working on/around low voltage DC,
it is what we use in
>the greeenhouse and fish tanks.  None of the fish
have floated up and we
>have not been shocked.  I have sloshed around in
marine situations in the
>bilges while working on active flood alarm systems.
Our electrical safety
>program starts at a voltage level of 32 volts DC
except for
>training/precautions to prevent arcing/shorting with
tools which can/will
>burn by thermal means, and battery acid spill/splash
concerns.
>
>Your mileage may vary.
>

| Message 11

Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
From:    Andrei.Calciu 'at' hn.va.nec.com
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:13:27 -0400

Gerry,

You may have a different situation, but most
greenhouse/aquaponics setups
are family farm type of operations where all the
family lives and works in
or near the greenhouse. Children (older ones) do help
mom and dad in the
greenhouse and thus are always in there. Younger kids
might be around too,
after all how could some siblings go in and not
others.

Commercial greenhouses are a different beast. No kids
around, mostly staff
working them, and presumably there is a Safety and
HACCUP program in place
to begin with. (For non USA list members, our beloved
government has
multiple agencies requiring safety programs in any
enterprise that is even
remotely commercial).

-_______________
Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)
NEC America, Inc.
14040 Park Center Dr.
Herndon, VA 20171-3227

Voice: 703-834-4273
Fax: 703-787-6613

This message and any attachment are confidential.  If
you are not the
intended recipient, please telephone or email the
sender and delete the
message and any attachment from your system. If you
are not the intended
recipient you must not copy this message or attachment
or disclose the
contents to any other person.

                    "gerry magnuson"
                                        cc:
                    Sent by:
Subject:     Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety   
                    aquaponics-request 'at' t
                    ownsqr.com
                                                                                                  

                    07/26/01 11:13 AM
                    Please respond to
                    aquaponics
                                                                                                  

I am at a lost as to why people, children, are allowed
in the greenhouse in

the first place
.the possible diseases brought into a
greenhouse by others

would be a primary concern, thus eliminating any
worries about children and

such
.sanitation at the entrance, and cleanliness
throughout are more
important.

>From: "Nick" 
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>To: 
>Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:46:39 -0700
>
>I believe the biggest problem area in low voltage DC
applications is under
>the condition where an arc is formed.  i.e.
commutating between brushes
and
>a slip ring assembly or commutator,
connection/disconnection with even
>small
>loads.  When an arc is formed, a broad band of AC
components is created,
at
>varying potentials depenant on such things as the
voltage, load, and
method
>of commutation. To prove this to yourself, take a 9
volt battery and
>connect
>one of its terminals to a common
metalworking/woodworking file/rasp, take
>another wire from the other terminal of the battery,
and strike the wire
up
>and down the serrations of the file/rasp while
listening to an AM radio.
>This seldom works with an FM radio as most electircal
arc/spark cause
>amplitude modulated interference, and FM's inherent
rejection of AM
signals
>will "filter" it out or reject it.
>
>As to the safety of working on/around low voltage DC,
it is what we use in
>the greeenhouse and fish tanks.  None of the fish
have floated up and we
>have not been shocked.  I have sloshed around in
marine situations in the
>bilges while working on active flood alarm systems.
Our electrical safety
>program starts at a voltage level of 32 volts DC
except for
>training/precautions to prevent arcing/shorting with
tools which can/will
>burn by thermal means, and battery acid spill/splash
concerns.
>
>Your mileage may vary.
>

| Message 12

Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
From:    "gerry magnuson" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 05:30:51 -1000

andrei
.have been in agriculture most all my life, it
is a matter of 
explaining proper procedures in and around equipment,
not just saying 
no
.the concern should be for the benefit of the fish
and plants, no matter 
what the situation, a little discipline and
understanding can prove to be a 
positive .having lived in hawaii or the past 16+
years, and many greenhouse 
operations
the more successful operations have rules
that all abide by, 
common sense is number one, if one wishes to be in a
greenhouse, maybe a 
small area can be set aside, like a no-smoking zone.

>From: Andrei.Calciu 'at' hn.va.nec.com
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:13:27 -0400
>
>
>Gerry,
>
>You may have a different situation, but most
greenhouse/aquaponics setups
>are family farm type of operations where all the
family lives and works in
>or near the greenhouse. Children (older ones) do help
mom and dad in the
>greenhouse and thus are always in there. Younger kids
might be around too,
>after all how could some siblings go in and not
others.
>
>Commercial greenhouses are a different beast. No kids
around, mostly staff
>working them, and presumably there is a Safety and
HACCUP program in place
>to begin with. (For non USA list members, our beloved
government has
>multiple agencies requiring safety programs in any
enterprise that is even
>remotely commercial).
>
>-_______________
>Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)
>NEC America, Inc.
>14040 Park Center Dr.
>Herndon, VA 20171-3227
>
>Voice: 703-834-4273
>Fax: 703-787-6613
>
>This message and any attachment are confidential.  If
you are not the
>intended recipient, please telephone or email the
sender and delete the
>message and any attachment from your system. If you
are not the intended
>recipient you must not copy this message or
attachment or disclose the
>contents to any other person.
>
>
>
>
>                     "gerry magnuson"
>                     aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>                     ail.com>                    cc:
>                     Sent by:
Subject:     Re: 12 volt 
>sump/bilge pump safety
>                     aquaponics-request 'at' t
>                     ownsqr.com
>
>
>                     07/26/01 11:13 AM
>                     Please respond to
>                     aquaponics
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I am at a lost as to why people, children, are
allowed in the greenhouse in
>
>the first place
.the possible diseases brought into
a greenhouse by others
>
>would be a primary concern, thus eliminating any
worries about children and
>
>such
.sanitation at the entrance, and cleanliness
throughout are more
>important.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Nick" 
> >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >To: 
> >Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
> >Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:46:39 -0700
> >
> >I believe the biggest problem area in low voltage
DC applications is 
>under
> >the condition where an arc is formed.  i.e.
commutating between brushes
>and
> >a slip ring assembly or commutator,
connection/disconnection with even
> >small
> >loads.  When an arc is formed, a broad band of AC
components is created,
>at
> >varying potentials depenant on such things as the
voltage, load, and
>method
> >of commutation. To prove this to yourself, take a 9
volt battery and
> >connect
> >one of its terminals to a common
metalworking/woodworking file/rasp, take
> >another wire from the other terminal of the
battery, and strike the wire
>up
> >and down the serrations of the file/rasp while
listening to an AM radio.
> >This seldom works with an FM radio as most
electircal arc/spark cause
> >amplitude modulated interference, and FM's inherent
rejection of AM
>signals
> >will "filter" it out or reject it.
> >
> >As to the safety of working on/around low voltage
DC, it is what we use 
>in
> >the greeenhouse and fish tanks.  None of the fish
have floated up and we
> >have not been shocked.  I have sloshed around in
marine situations in the
> >bilges while working on active flood alarm systems.
Our electrical 
>safety
> >program starts at a voltage level of 32 volts DC
except for
> >training/precautions to prevent arcing/shorting
with tools which can/will
> >burn by thermal means, and battery acid
spill/splash concerns.
> >
> >Your mileage may vary.
> >
>
>

>
> 
/intl.asp
>
>
>
>
>

| Message 13

Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
From:    "Arlos" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:34:22 -0700

Nick,

 Thanks for a more technical explanation. Not knowing
the groups overall
experience with all things electrical I made a blanket
statement simply
about safety. Hopeful others will take this and learn
enough to perform a
simple Ohms law calculation. I completely agree with
your experience on low
voltage DC but for a general audience and never
knowing how another will
take information and walk into a "hot" tank> I would
rather just simply say,
"unplug it before working on it". Which reminds me, I
have to go replace a
recirc pump right now
. thanks for the post.

Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick 
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com 
Date: Thursday, July 26, 2001 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety

>I believe the biggest problem area in low voltage DC
applications is under
>the condition where an arc is formed.  i.e.
commutating between brushes and
>a slip ring assembly or commutator,
connection/disconnection with even
small
>loads.  When an arc is formed, a broad band of AC
components is created, at
>varying potentials depenant on such things as the
voltage, load, and method
>of commutation. To prove this to yourself, take a 9
volt battery and
connect
>one of its terminals to a common
metalworking/woodworking file/rasp, take
>another wire from the other terminal of the battery,
and strike the wire up
>and down the serrations of the file/rasp while
listening to an AM radio.
>This seldom works with an FM radio as most electircal
arc/spark cause
>amplitude modulated interference, and FM's inherent
rejection of AM signals
>will "filter" it out or reject it.
>
>As to the safety of working on/around low voltage DC,
it is what we use in
>the greeenhouse and fish tanks.  None of the fish
have floated up and we
>have not been shocked.  I have sloshed around in
marine situations in the
>bilges while working on active flood alarm systems.
Our electrical safety
>program starts at a voltage level of 32 volts DC
except for
>training/precautions to prevent arcing/shorting with
tools which can/will
>burn by thermal means, and battery acid spill/splash
concerns.
>
>Your mileage may vary.
>
>

| Message 14

Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
From:    "Arlos" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:36:03 -0700

Andrei,

  Are you attending the aquaponics workshop in Nov
down in NC?

Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrei.Calciu 'at' hn.va.nec.com

To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com 
Date: Thursday, July 26, 2001 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety

>
>Gerry,
>
>You may have a different situation, but most
greenhouse/aquaponics setups
>are family farm type of operations where all the
family lives and works in
>or near the greenhouse. Children (older ones) do help
mom and dad in the
>greenhouse and thus are always in there. Younger kids
might be around too,
>after all how could some siblings go in and not
others.
>
>Commercial greenhouses are a different beast. No kids
around, mostly staff
>working them, and presumably there is a Safety and
HACCUP program in place
>to begin with. (For non USA list members, our beloved
government has
>multiple agencies requiring safety programs in any
enterprise that is even
>remotely commercial).
>
>-_______________
>Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)
>NEC America, Inc.
>14040 Park Center Dr.
>Herndon, VA 20171-3227
>
>Voice: 703-834-4273
>Fax: 703-787-6613
>
>This message and any attachment are confidential.  If
you are not the
>intended recipient, please telephone or email the
sender and delete the
>message and any attachment from your system. If you
are not the intended
>recipient you must not copy this message or
attachment or disclose the
>contents to any other person.
>
>
>
>
>                    "gerry magnuson"
>                                        ail.com>                    cc:
>                    Sent by:
Subject:     Re: 12 volt
sump/bilge pump safety
>                    aquaponics-request 'at' t
>                    ownsqr.com
>
>
>                    07/26/01 11:13 AM
>                    Please respond to
>                    aquaponics
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I am at a lost as to why people, children, are
allowed in the greenhouse in
>
>the first place
.the possible diseases brought into
a greenhouse by others
>
>would be a primary concern, thus eliminating any
worries about children and
>
>such
.sanitation at the entrance, and cleanliness
throughout are more
>important.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>From: "Nick" 
>>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>>To: 
>>Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
>>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:46:39 -0700
>>
>>I believe the biggest problem area in low voltage DC
applications is under
>>the condition where an arc is formed.  i.e.
commutating between brushes
>and
>>a slip ring assembly or commutator,
connection/disconnection with even
>>small
>>loads.  When an arc is formed, a broad band of AC
components is created,
>at
>>varying potentials depenant on such things as the
voltage, load, and
>method
>>of commutation. To prove this to yourself, take a 9
volt battery and
>>connect
>>one of its terminals to a common
metalworking/woodworking file/rasp, take
>>another wire from the other terminal of the battery,
and strike the wire
>up
>>and down the serrations of the file/rasp while
listening to an AM radio.
>>This seldom works with an FM radio as most
electircal arc/spark cause
>>amplitude modulated interference, and FM's inherent
rejection of AM
>signals
>>will "filter" it out or reject it.
>>
>>As to the safety of working on/around low voltage
DC, it is what we use in
>>the greeenhouse and fish tanks.  None of the fish
have floated up and we
>>have not been shocked.  I have sloshed around in
marine situations in the
>>bilges while working on active flood alarm systems.
Our electrical safety
>>program starts at a voltage level of 32 volts DC
except for
>>training/precautions to prevent arcing/shorting with
tools which can/will
>>burn by thermal means, and battery acid spill/splash
concerns.
>>
>>Your mileage may vary.
>>
>
>

>
> 
/intl.asp
>
>
>
>
>
>

| Message 15

Subject: RE: Safety
From:    "Chris Jeppesen" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:42:06 -0700

Pete and Diana 
My Grand kids will behere in a week and I'll have a
screen on it by then.  And the green house will be off
limits without supervision (The ability to see thru
things except lead). So far the neighborhood children
have respected the rule.
I have a freind in Wyoming who lost a 2 year old son
in a post hole so be extremly diligent in teaching
your children and use doors they can't operate.  In a
few years feeding the fish and tending the plants will
be a great responsiblity.  Children need responsiblity
to grow on.
Chris Jeppesen
> "Pete and Diana Scholtens" 
 SafetyDate: Thu, 26 Jul 2001
06:46:42 -0700
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>
>Chris said:
>My worst night mare is that the tops of my return
sumps are just at floor
>level and i worry about a stray child. Liability
aside that is not a happy
>tought.
>
>Has anyone had any bad experiences like this? This is
my biggest fear about
>setting up a system as well. My two year old son has
a fascination with
>water and fish. Any tank of water will draw him in
like bees to honey, and
>would even more if he knew there was fish in the
water.
>
>What have people done increase safety?
>
>Pete Scholtens
>Langley, BC

| Message 16

Subject: Instrumentation
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:49:08 -0500

Hi all,

 Has anyone used the "Water Test" meter from Hanna 
instruments?

http://www.automatedaquariums.com/h_wtest.htm

I am looking for a decent meter at a reasonable cost.
One
thing I like about this one is it tests for PH, EC,
ORP, and temp
all in one meter. At around $144.00 it would seem a
good value.
Feedback on any other good meters is appreciated.

Mark

| Message 17

Subject: NC workshop
From:    Andrei.Calciu 'at' hn.va.nec.com
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:42:47 -0400

Arlos,

I have full intention to attend the workshop. Life is
paved with good
intentions, so we will see if I can actually make it
;-)

Where is the sign-up information?

-_______________
Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)
NEC America, Inc.
14040 Park Center Dr.
Herndon, VA 20171-3227

Voice: 703-834-4273
Fax: 703-787-6613

This message and any attachment are confidential.  If
you are not the
intended recipient, please telephone or email the
sender and delete the
message and any attachment from your system. If you
are not the intended
recipient you must not copy this message or attachment
or disclose the
contents to any other person.

| Message 18

Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
From:    "Chris Jeppesen" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:56:48 -0700

gerry
People in my green house is just good PR. I've had
evough problems with the city allready if I go to
round two with the city it will be easyer with my
nieghbors in my corner.

When I get my production problems worked out my
marketing plan is for right out the door. I know it is
the family farm that has been in the family for 121
years but we have allways made more money when the new
by town people come to use than when load the wagons
and go to them.
allso durring the interime 121 Wall mart is one half
mile down the road. I think I can sell all I can grow
right out the door. But that wont happen with a goaway
sign on the door. It takes a smile and howdy. Looky
how we do it here.
Chris Jeppesen

> "gerry magnuson
>
>I am at a lost as to why people, children, are
allowed in the greenhouse in 
>the first place
.the possible diseases brought into
a greenhouse by others 
>would be a primary concern, thus eliminating any
worries about children and 
>such
.sanitation at the entrance, and cleanliness
throughout are more 
>important.

| Message 19

Subject: RE: Aquaponics, Sales, Grower Attitude
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:09:44 -0500

Thanks for the post, marc. My Dad and grandparents had
a
small restaurant when I was a kid. My grandmother was
great at building relationships. Their place was fun
for
people
.it felt like home. That ability to cultivate 
relationships can make you or break you in business.
take care, mark

>

he presents a commitment to valuing relationships

| Message 20

Subject: Measurements
From:    Andrei.Calciu 'at' hn.va.nec.com
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:05:26 -0400

Folks,

Is there a complete list of all the different
variables that are (or
should) be measured in an aquaponics setup? I am
trying to create a
monitoring spreadsheet and I would like to have it as
complete as possible.
To give y'all a push start, here is a short (meaning
incomplete) collection
of parameters I thought of:

Air temperature inside greenhouse/building
Air temperature outside
Humidity outside
Humidity inside
Water temp in tank
DO in tank
pH in tank
Conductivity in tank
root temperature in grow beds
DO at exit from grow beds
pH at exit from grow beds

etc, etc, etc,

Now start filling in and get creative. It is better to
have too many
parameters and ignore some than to have too few and
miss out on an early
warning.

Also, one column in the spreadsheet will be
"acceptable range" so please
fill in that also if you have any direct experience
with it.

Once finished, I will share the spreadsheet with the
list. Of course, at no
cost!!!

-_______________
Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)
NEC America, Inc.
14040 Park Center Dr.
Herndon, VA 20171-3227

Voice: 703-834-4273
Fax: 703-787-6613

This message and any attachment are confidential.  If
you are not the
intended recipient, please telephone or email the
sender and delete the
message and any attachment from your system. If you
are not the intended
recipient you must not copy this message or attachment
or disclose the
contents to any other person.

| Message 21

Subject: Re: Safety
From:    kris book 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:28:13 -0600

I remember as a child, if anything was put off limits
that just made it
all the more appealing. Educate your children, give
them the run of all
safe places and take the time to explain what's
dangerous and why. My
kids find more things that need attention in the
greenhouse than I do.
Things have been going quite well(sanity wise) since
we adopted the
rule:Anytime you have a question, take the time to
think about, asking
the best possible question.

kris

| Message 22

Subject: it is always good to have visitors as you say
From:    "gerry magnuson" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:32:08 -1000

if one were to have visitors come, great
.it would
also be wise to have a 
covered area for buying and display, still keeping the
folks out of the 
greenhouses
.as I have watched women with purses,
snip a stem or two for 
later use
.my farm is tucked in a 'valley', house is
a quarter mile from 
the entrance, and the greenhouses are in a corner of
the farm, planning up 
to 5 acres, rest will soonbe in apple orchards, dwarf,
and whatever else my 
better half wishes.

>From: "Chris Jeppesen" 
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:56:48 -0700
>
>gerry
>People in my green house is just good PR. I've had
evough problems with the 
>city allready if I go to round two with the city it
will be easyer with my 
>nieghbors in my corner.
>
>When I get my production problems worked out my
marketing plan is for right 
>out the door. I know it is the family farm that has
been in the family for 
>121 years but we have allways made more money when
the new by town people 
>come to use than when load the wagons and go to them.
>allso durring the interime 121 Wall mart is one half
mile down the road. I 
>think I can sell all I can grow right out the door.
But that wont happen 
>with a goaway sign on the door. It takes a smile and
howdy. Looky how we do 
>it here.
>Chris Jeppesen
>
> > "gerry magnuson
> >
> >I am at a lost as to why people, children, are
allowed in the greenhouse 
>in
> >the first place
.the possible diseases brought
into a greenhouse by 
>others
> >would be a primary concern, thus eliminating any
worries about children 
>and
> >such
.sanitation at the entrance, and cleanliness
throughout are more
> >important.
>
>
>
>

>
> 
> 

| Message 23

Subject: Re: Safety
From:    "gerry magnuson" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:41:10 -1000

BINGO!!!

>From: kris book 
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>CC: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>Subject: Re: Safety
>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:28:13 -0600
>
>I remember as a child, if anything was put off limits
that just made it
>all the more appealing. Educate your children, give
them the run of all
>safe places and take the time to explain what's
dangerous and why. My
>kids find more things that need attention in the
greenhouse than I do.
>Things have been going quite well(sanity wise) since
we adopted the
>rule:Anytime you have a question, take the time to
think about, asking
>the best possible question.
>
>kris

| Message 24

Subject: Re: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety
From:    marc 'at' aculink.net
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:48:38 -0600

"Can anyone tell me about the safety of being in the
water
when using
12V submersible pumps?"

There's very few circumstances that are hazardous with
low
voltage installations. Keeping in mind that voltage is
pressure or the push/pull that gets current flowing
you'll
see why 12V is so safe. 12 volts is a small push or
pull.

One of the most common injury scenarios in low voltage
applications is a live/hot/energized piece of the
electrical
wire that carries energy to the pump penetrating the
outer
layer or protective layer of the skin. These kinds of
penetrations are dangerous in that the liquid inside
the
body is quite a good conductor and allows current to
flow
readily even at low voltage levels. If there are
submersed
parts of the body to act as the other pathway for
current
injury is certainly possible and there are documented
cases
of this.

Basically don't poke pieces of wire into your body
while
standing in your fish tank - even low voltage stuff.

If you are not sure as to safety considerations you
may want
to start with parts and design in the S&S aquaponics
engineering package. 

The main liability you will have with an unsupervised
child
is drowning. In worse case scenario electrocution is
virtually impossible with a properly installed pumping
system. The key is PROPER installation.

In summary:

1. GOOD grounding is essential to safety. 

2. It is a myth that submersible pumps should be
avoided due
to the danger of electrocution.

3. Poor installations should be avoided with ANY pump.

4. Follow manufacturers instructions explicitly.

5. Follow a proven performance scenario.

Marc Nameth
-

| Message 25

Subject: Fw: Resources List
From:    kris book 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:51:32 -0600

Mike, 

I hope this is helpful for the bookmark site. I
doesn't seem to be about
self promotion. He listed three magazines and didn't
even list his first.
I believe I can safely say that Doug is ethically
sound and very helpful.
He didn't even try to pin me down to write an article
but, his kindness
forced me to offer to write one as soon as I learn how
to write.

kris

--- Forwarded message ----
From: "Douglas J. Peckenpaugh" 
To: krisbook 'at' juno.com
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 16:22:55 -0700
Subject: Resources List
Message-ID: <3B5F54CE.9CC6583B 'at' growingedge.com>

Kris:

Here are some organic, organic hydroponic, aquaponic,
greenhouse, and
other resources. I focused on Texas for the state
resources since if I
remember correctly, your friend is based there. I also
listed some back
issues that would look into these topics.

These are mostly Web-based addresses (to save my
time); if your friend
is not connected to the Internet, he should go to the
library (I would
bet that almost every library in the nation now has at
least one
computer hooked to the Net), look up these addresses,
and then contact
the organizations he finds useful to request or print
out information.

I hope this leads you in some good directions. Good
luck in your
venture. Please let me know if you ever have any
questions. The "Ask the
Experts" feature associated with The Growing Edge
(either write to P.O.
Box 1027, Corvallis, Oregon 97339 or visit the Web
site at
http://www.growingedge.com/community/ or simply send
me an e-mail
(editor 'at' growingedge.com)) is a great resource for free
advice regarding
specific questions. On the Web site you can browse
through hundreds of
questions and answers or pose your own questions.

Keep me updated on your progress. I monitor the
aquaponic and hydroponic
discussion lists, so I'm there in "cyber spirit"
almost every day.

Sincerely,
Douglas J. Peckenpaugh
Editor, The Growing Edge

General Organic Resources

The National Organic Program
http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/

Sustainable Agriculture Network
http://www.sare.org/

International Federation of Organic Agriculture
Movements
http://www.ifoam.org/

The Organic Trade Association
http://www.ota.com/

Organic Farmers Marketing Association
http://web.iquest.net/ofma/

The Organic Farming Research Foundation
http://www.ofrf.org/

Organic Crop Improvement Association
http://www.ocia.org/

State of Texas Organic Resources

Texas Department of Agriculture Organic Certification
Program
http://www.agr.state.tx.us/license/organic.htm

Texas Organic Growers Association
http://www.texasorganicgrowers.com/

Aquaponic Resources

Aquatic Eco-Systems, Inc.
1767 Benbow Court
Apopka, FL 32703
http://www.aquaticeco.com/

Bioshelters, Inc.
500 Sunderland Road
Amherst, MA 01002
http://www.bioshelters.com/

CropKing, Inc.
5050 Greenwich Road
Seville, OH 44273-9413
http://www.cropking.com/

Future AquaFarms
RR 2, Site 1A, Box 26
Head of Chezzetcook, 
Nova Scotia, B0J 1N0
Canada

Hydro/Aquatic Technologies
P.O. Box 777
Princess Anne, MD 21853

Inslee's Fish Farm
P.O. Box 207
Connerville, OK 74836

Integrated Aquatics
Welcome, Ontario
Canada

Nelson/Pade Multimedia
P.O. Box 1848
Mariposa, CA 95338
http://www.aquaponics.com/

S & S Aqua Farm
8386 County Road 8820
West Plains, MO 65775
http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

University of the Virgin Islands 
Agricultural Experiment Station
RR 2
Box 10,000
Kingshill, VI 00850
(340) 692-4020
http://rps.uvi.edu/AES/aes_home.html

USA Ringger Foods-Aquaculture Division
P.O. Box 40
320 West Gridley Road
Gridley, IL 61744
http://www.aquaranch.com/

Some Good Books

Cooper, Dr. Allen, The ABC of NFT, (Casper
Publications, New South
Wales, Australia, 1979)

Dalton, Lon; Smith, Rob, Hydroponic Crop Production,
(New Zealand
Hydroponics, Ltd., Tauranga, New Zealand, 1999)

Dalton, Lon; Smith, Rob, Hydroponic Gardening, (New
Zealand Hydroponics,
Ltd., Tauranga, New Zealand, 1993)

Fox, Roger, The Best of Practical Hydroponics &
Greenhouses, (Casper
Publications, New South Wales, Australia, 1997)

Jones, J. Benton, Jr., Hydroponics: A Practical Guide
for the Soilless
Grower, (CRC Press, Boca Raton, Florida, 1997)

Knutson, Amy, ed., The Best of The Growing Edge,
Volume 2, 1994-1999,
(New Moon Publishing, Corvallis, Oregon, 2000)

Parker, Don, ed., The Best of The Growing Edge, Volume
1, 1989-1994,
(New Moon Publishing, Corvallis, Oregon, 1994)

Resh, Dr. Howard, Hydroponic Food Production, Fifth
Edition, (Woodbridge
Press, Santa Barbara, California, 1997)

Greenhouses Advanced Technology for Protected
Horticulture, J. J.
Hannan, CRC Press

Boodley, J. W. The Commercial Greenhouse (Delmar,
Albany, New York, 1998)

Nelson, P. V. Greenhouse Operation and Management,
(Prentice Hall,
Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey, 1991)

Recommended Magazines

Aquaponics Journal (Nelson/Pade Multimedia, Mariposa,
California 1997- )

The Growing Edge, (New Moon Publishing, Corvallis,
Oregon, 1989- )

Practical Hydroponics & Greenhouses, (Casper
Publications, New South
Wales, Australia, 1991- )

Some Recommended Organic Hydroponic and Aquaponic
Articles From The
Growing Edge

(By the way, we're having a special deal right now;
you can get every
back issue for a total of $85, which is a savings of
around $200--it's a
great deal.)

"Bioponics: Organic Hydroponic Gardening," Dr. Luther
Thomas, The
Growing Edge, Vol. 1, No. 3

"Bioponics, Part Two," Dr. Luther Thomas, The Growing
Edge, Vol. 2, No. 2

"Bioponics Part III: Solution pH and Temperature as
Limiting Factors,"
Dr. Luther Thomas, Vol. 2, No. 3 

"Bioponics Part IV," Dr. Luther Thomas, The Growing
Edge, Vol. 2, No. 4

"Bioponics Part 5: Enzymes for Hereditary Potential,"
Dr. Luther Thomas,
The Growing Edge, Vol. 4, No. 2 

"Organic Nutrient Extractor for Hydroponic Systems,"
Dr. Luther Thomas,
The Growing Edge, Vol. 4, No. 4

"Aquaponics--Combining Aquaculture and Hydroponics,"
Gordon Creaser, The
Growing Edge, Vol. 9, No. 1

"Growing Notes--Integrating Aquaculture and
Hydroponics on the Small
Farm," Gordon Watkins, The Growing Edge, Vol. 9, No. 5

"Inslee Fish Farm: A Family-Run Aquaponic Operation
Produces Chives and
Fish," Gordon Watkins, The Growing Edge Vol. 10, No. 5

"Growing Notes--Australian Aquaponics--Whole Fresh
Fish and a Side Salad
Please!" Andrew de Dezsery, The Growing Edge, Vol. 11,
No. 2

"Research and Retail at Coonamessett Farm," Jan
Kubiak, The Growing
Edge, Vol. 11, No. 2

"Botanical Compounds: Defense Strategies From the
Plant Kingdom," Dr.
Lynette Morgan, The Growing Edge, Vol. 11, No. 4

"Growing With Aquaponics--An Update From the Field,"
Gordon Creaser, The
Growing Edge, Vol. 11, No. 5

"Agriculture Extension Experiments in Aquaponics,"
Lana Robinson, The
Growing Edge, Vol. 11, No. 6

"Scholastic Aquaponics," Ray Schneider, The Growing
Edge, Vol. 12, No. 1

"Appalachian Aquaponics," Phillip Meeks, The Growing
Edge, Vol. 12, No. 2

"Suriname Hydroponics," Gordon Creaser, The Growing
Edge, Vol. 12, No. 4

"Organic Hydroponics," Melvin Landers, The Growing
Edge, Vol. 12, No. 5

"Outdoor Aquaponics," Myra D. Colgate, The Growing
Edge, Vol. 12, No. 5

"Aquaponic Logistics," Rebecca L. Nelson, The Growing
Edge, Vol. 12, No.
6

| Message 26

Subject: Re: Instrumentation
From:    "Thomas Short" 
Date:    Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:00:50 -0700

=_NextPart_001_0000_01C115D2.FEA92D20
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Check out this I thank it may work .What do you think?
 http://www.smarthome.com/6116.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Allen Wells
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 8:56 AM
To: Aquaponics
Subject: Instrumentation
 =20
Hi all,

Has anyone used the "Water Test" meter from Hanna
instruments?

http://www.automatedaquariums.com/h_wtest.htm

I am looking for a decent meter at a reasonable cost.
One
thing I like about this one is it tests for PH, EC,
ORP, and temp
all in one meter. At around $144.00 it would seem a
good value.
Feedback on any other good meters is appreciated.

Mark

=_NextPart_001_0000_01C115D2.FEA92D20
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Check out this= I thank it may work .What do you think?
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark A= llen Wells
Sent: Thursday, J= uly 26, 2001 8:56 AM
To: Aqu= aponics
Subject: Instrumenta= tion
 
Hi all,

Has anyone used the "Water Tes= t" meter from Hanna
instruments?

http://www.automatedaquariums.= com/h_wtest.htm

I am looking for a decent meter at a reasonable co= st. One
thing I like about this one is it tests for PH, EC, ORP, and t= emp
all in one meter. At around $144.00 it would seem a good value.Feedback on any other good meters is appreciated.

Mark


Get more from the Web. FREE MSN = Explorer download :
http://explorer.m= sn.com

=_NextPart_001_0000_01C115D2.FEA92D20-- | Message 27 Subject: Re: no thanks From: kris book Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:09:29 -0600 > Mark, > > You are obviously a gentleman and a scholar but, will you stop being > so damn polite. I was lurking around here for quite a while and > enjoying it very much. Then along comes Mark and Arlos and you two > jump like you've been here forever, and being the good card player > that I am, I have to follow suit. > > I appreciate the way that you handled Marc, I bet you've caught a > whole bunch of flies with your sack of sugar. I was getting a little > paranoid, trying not to upset anyone with my writings. To be > chastised for 8 words out of a whole page community service message > was quite alarming but, since there is no accounting for taste, I > guess I'll just let it drop for now. Or almost > > As for Marc, please do yourself a favor and don't try to tell people > what they think or what their motivations are. Those skills are not > available on this planet. And before you declare war with someone > you ought to check your mind. Do you think you would speak to me in > the same manner if we were face to face. Please don't construe this > as a threat, just common sense. > > | Message 28 Subject: Re: no thanks From: kris book Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:14:00 -0600 Please excuse the typo. I meant misconstrue | Message 29 Subject: Lightning protection From: "Arlos" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:41:19 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. =_NextPart_000_0010_01C115E1.0828C8C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Amigos, When I'm crusing through my email in the morning, the news is on and = all I hear is thunder and lightning storms across the country. How do = all of you protect your green houses from this? In a few photos that = have been posted I had not seen any lighting protection. Arlos =_NextPart_000_0010_01C115E1.0828C8C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Amigos,
 
  When I'm crusing through my = email in the=20 morning, the news is on and all I hear is thunder and lightning storms = across=20 the country. How do all of you protect your green houses from this? In a = few=20 photos that have been posted I had not seen any lighting=20 protection.
 
Arlos
=_NextPart_000_0010_01C115E1.0828C8C0-- | Message 30 Subject: RE: Instrumentation From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:47:17 -0500 very interesting Thomas .thanks .will read up on it. http://www.smarthome.com/6116.html | Message 31 Subject: Re: Biogas From: "Brent Bingham" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:01:54 -0700 Yes, but chips or turnings from a shop are better to get gas flow. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cary Dizon" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 7:18 PM Subject: Biogas > I've read that a trap filled with iron fillings can eliminate > hydrogen-sulfides in biogas. These systems are used in India. > > CPD > | Message 32 Subject: RE: Biogas From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:16:41 -0500 >Yes, but chips or turnings from a shop are better to get gas flow. ---- > I've read that a trap filled with iron fillings can eliminate > hydrogen-sulfides in biogas. These systems are used in India. > > CPD > ---- Thanks guys, I am looking into this. I think the greenwater tank culture system that uses a clarifier, produces a sludge that is suitable for bio-digestion. I'll keep you posted on what I find. http://www.aquaponics.com/articlegreenwater.htm | Message 33 Subject: Re: Greenwater sludge>>methane From: "Brent Bingham" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:19:47 -0700 Storing Biogas in steel high pressure vessels is risky business! H2S is a killer. Captive bubble systems and bladder type systems seem to be more cost effective and safer. . Even small amounts of H2S in a high pressure tank can cause an undetectable catastrophic failure over time. Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Allen Wells" To: "Aquaponics" Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 11:24 PM Subject: Greenwater sludge>>methane > Hi everyone, > > The digester thread got the wheels spinning. One thing that > was bothering me in processing aquaponic/aquaculture waste was it's > too thin .not enough solids. Then I was reading the page about > greenwater tank culture in the Virgin Islands and saw a pic of the > greenwater sludge and the lightbulb went off. > > http://www.aquaponics.com/articlegreenwater.htm > > The clarifier on this page concentrates the solids > resulting in sludge. This is similar to the primary settling > process in our waste treatment plant with one big difference.> our sludge is then pumped to the digester. This type of aquaculture > would seem to lend itself to bio-digestion. It takes a lot > of sludge to produce a significant volume of methane. But I > think a multi-fuel system using methane and shelled corn > (which I can barter for or grow .no cash outlay) is feasible. > The system would use a compressor and tanks like LP gas tanks > to store the methane and build up a supply in summer months. > When methane supply runs low, corn is used to fuel the system. > Even if I had to buy it, it's the cheapest fuel here in > the cornbelt. I am going to look into this. If any one is > interested in this, let me know and I'll keep you posted off > list so I don't annoy anyone. > > Raul, (I hope you are reading this) .does this sound > feasible to you? Would free fuel offset construction costs? > I am not familiar with small farm type digesters but I am hitting > the search engines and reading all I can this weekend. > > take care.> Mark > | Message 34 Subject: RE: Greenwater sludge>>methane From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:34:55 -0500 Storing Biogas in steel high pressure vessels is risky business! H2S is a killer. Captive bubble systems and bladder type systems seem to be more cost effective and safer. . Even small amounts of H2S in a high pressure tank can cause an undetectable catastrophic failure over time. Brent ---- Brent, this is the kind of feedback I wanted .thanks. In our wastewater plant, gas guns(compressors) pumped the gas into a huge spherical tank .pressure wasn't high but it was huge .lots of volume. It's been a few years since I worked there. I have some boning up to do. You seem knowledgable. I'll share more thoughts off-list. can you send me your addy? mawells 'at' bpsinet.com mark | Message 35 Subject: Re: Greenwater sludge>>methane From: "Brent Bingham" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:51:42 -0700 Yes, the huge tanks you see go up and down in a framework have weighted tops to keep a constant PSI on the gas. No matter how full the tank the PSI is constant and safer. Bbingham 'at' starband.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Allen Wells" To: Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:34 PM Subject: RE: Greenwater sludge>>methane > Storing Biogas in steel high pressure vessels is risky business! H2S is a > killer. Captive bubble systems and bladder type systems seem to be more cost > effective and safer. . Even small amounts of H2S in a high pressure tank can > cause an undetectable catastrophic failure over time. > Brent > > ---- > Brent, > this is the kind of feedback I wanted .thanks. > In our wastewater plant, gas guns(compressors) > pumped the gas into a huge spherical tank .pressure > wasn't high but it was huge .lots of volume. > It's been a few years since I worked there. I have > some boning up to do. You seem knowledgable. I'll > share more thoughts off-list. can you send me your addy? > > mawells 'at' bpsinet.com > > mark > > | Message 36 Subject: New Business From: "Leon Klopfenstein" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 06:08:01 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. =_NextPart_000_0075_01C11599.53977920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those interested in starting a new business, you might want to take = the time to purchase, (and read) the book by Michael Gerber:"The = E-Myth". He might have a couple printings. Get the latest one.=20 Leon =_NextPart_000_0075_01C11599.53977920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For those interested in starting a new = business,=20 you might want to take the time to purchase, (and read) the book by = Michael=20 Gerber:"The E-Myth". He might have a couple printings. Get the latest = one.=20
 
Leon
=_NextPart_000_0075_01C11599.53977920-- | Message 37 Subject: Re: Lightning protection From: Peggy & Emmett Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 19:16:18 -0400 At 02:41 PM 7/26/2001 -0700, you wrote: > Amigos, >lightning storms across the >country. > Arlos http://www.lightningstorm.com/lightningstorm/gpg/lex1/mapdisplay_free.jsp If this doesn't work I'll send another address. Emmett | Message 38 Subject: RE: Hanging pots vs grow beds From: "Hurst, Steve ( China)" Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:24:22 +0800 Kris, Thanks for that link. This has brought up several ideas That I never even considered. As I have moved from (Traditional ?) Pond Tilapia farming to trying Aquaponics, I am still trying to get a grip on the Plant side of things. So far, everything I have put in those growbeds have come up. But I can see your point, utilise every bit of space , Vertical as well as Horizontal, to maximise output. That Greenhouse space is expensive ( even here in the Tropics ). I just had a vision of hanging pots on a beam trolley, roll the vertical stack of pots around the greenhouse in different light conditions until the plants thrive ! Just a few flexible hose connections and I can do it. Thats a good idea about using the pots as a shade for other plants that dont need so much light. Shading is one of my bigger probelms. Okay, I am convinced. This is the next stage of the project . Steve SNIP >Take a look at the link, click on hydro farm and then look at the bottom >left picture. I think you'll easily see that hanging pots on the north >wall are about equal in plant area to the grow beds on the floor. To me >that means, twice as much harvest in the same growing area. One isn't >better than the other but together they can make the difference between >success and failure, monetarily speaking. It does seem likely that a >person wouldn't set up hanging pots on both sides of the greenhouse >because the row on the south side would shade the rest of the growing >area, except in summer when the sun is directly overhead. Come to think >of it, there are lots of plants like spinach that don't need much >sunlight to thrive. What do you think, back at ya. kris http://www.aerialad.net/hydrofarm/index.htm | Message 39 Subject: RE: 12 volt sump/bilge pump safety From: "Hurst, Steve ( China)" Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:53:44 +0800 Nick , Arlos, I agree absolutely. A note on Industry Practices with regard to Electrical Isolation. I work Offshore with the Oil/Gas Industry. The rules on Energy Isolations are very strict, especially with Electrical Isolations. However, all companys I have worked for have a Lower Energy level where these rules do not apply ( i.e., you do not need a positive Energy Isolation prior to starting work ). On some facilities this Energy level is 24V DC. My current facility I am working on it is 48V DC. However, these rules still require the Technicians to follow Good Working Practices, such as, isolating the Electrical supply anyway, if you do not need it switched on to Diagnose a problem. Prior to Touching ANYTHING that could be a conductor ( such as the water )test it with a meter to see if there is anything there. Don 'at' t rely on a Safety device to protect you ( like RCD or GFI device ). Take positive steps to isolate any potential hazard first. I personally am comfortable with any DC voltage up to 24V. However, if the equipment has failed, and until you know why it has failed always assume the worst. Just my 2pence worth Steve H SNIP Nick, Thanks for a more technical explanation. Not knowing the groups overall experience with all things electrical I made a blanket statement simply about safety. Hopeful others will take this and learn enough to perform a simple Ohms law calculation. I completely agree with your experience on low voltage DC but for a general audience and never knowing how another will take information and walk into a "hot" tank> I would rather just simply say, "unplug it before working on it". Which reminds me, I have to go replace a recirc pump right now . thanks for the post. | Message 40 Subject: Re: Hanging pots vs grow beds From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 20:28:24 -0500 (CDT) Kris I'd like to try some of thoughs vertical pot systems some time maybe as A aeration tower what does it cost to set them up? Bruce | Message 41 Subject: Re: Hanging pots vs grow beds From: kris book Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 19:44:15 -0600 Steve, Elementry, my dear Watson. If I have a choice, I'd rather be old Sherlock and go play nine holes down by the caddyshack. I'd rather be a hundred different beings before I'd want to be a Olympian god. How about making the pots spinable, like a lazy Susan, over all plant health and harvest would be optimized by insuring equal sun to each plant. My wife always makes me turn all of her pots and portable grow beds. She grows bio-dynamically and has to have her special dirt, heavy dirt. I made the mistake of telling her,"why don't we try to take some of your garden dirt and put it in the greenhouse". It worked so well that she only wanted to use the greenhouse for her vegetables and her bio-dynamic garden was just used for flowers and herbs. Oh, and a place to keep her horn manure. I told her that I didn't like giving up my greenhouse but she said that the veggies would be happier in the greenhouse. You see, she was in this gardening club, something called Peralandra (I think), where they learned old Druid techniques to communicate with plants. It's like dowsing for water or sometimes called Kinesiology. Please no questions about this stuff, if you're interested in any of this stuff do an Internet search. I've only been an observer but, I have seen great results from all this white witchery stuff. Man talk about off-topic. Should I hold out my hands to get the ruler from the nun. kris | Message 42 Subject: RE: Greenwater sludge>>methane From: "Hurst, Steve ( China)" Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:56:08 +0800 Absolutely agree with you Brent, If there is any Water Moisture in the gas ( this is normal ) the water forms with the H2S to form a very strong acid. For a Propane Cylinder, this could eat through the walls in a matter of weeks or a few months. With " Wet Gas" you also have a problem of the CO2 combining with this water to form Carbolic Acid, which again is very corrosive and will eat through the steel walls very quickly. Gas that is sold in cylinders, and which goes down the Natural gas pipelines, all has been de-hydrated. Very Little water ( H2O dewpoint ) inside the gas, to combine with the H2S and CO2 elements. In the Oil/gas industry this is known as "Sweet" ( Co2) or "Sour" ( H2s )gas/corrosion. It is fundamental to Designing the facility to withstand the attack of corrosion from these two un-wanted products of natural gas. How to control these types of corrosion/gases is a known fact. Biogas is no different to Natural gas, except it is not quite so nasty. I Don 'at' t know if you can get Benzene or Heavys in Biogas ( such as mercury ). A source of Good information to research this stuff is the Oil/Gas industry ( cant remember the web address, but just do a search for API, American Petroleum Institute.) Everything you ever needed to know about Gas/H2S, corrosion etc. Also another point, what you might be able to get away with in a remote village in India, might not be acceptable to your Local Inspectorate in the USA ( or other developed country ). I am sure there are a thousand rules and regulations governing the selection/use of equipment, testing, certifying etc for a gas production facility ! And rightly so. This stuff can Kill people, in a variety of ways. Steve H SNIP >Storing Biogas in steel high pressure vessels is risky business! H2S is a >killer. Captive bubble systems and bladder type systems seem to be more cost >effective and safer. . Even small amounts of H2S in a high pressure tank can >cause an undetectable catastrophic failure over time. >Brent | Message 43 Subject: Re: Hanging pots vs grow beds From: kris book Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 20:02:31 -0600 Bruce, Jay here on the list said he paid $1.20 each from the maker (Tim Carpenter, I think), and he bought 3,000, if I do the math right. But someone else(I don't remember who) here said that HYDRO-GARDENS sells them for $ 1.15. I bet we could figure a way to make them cheaper. Tim makes a tower kit, that has 5 pots attached to a vertical plastic pipe, and three towers make a basic unit, price $130. If you just want to play that's probably not to steep. I've never seen one in person but, all of this info has passed thru the list lately. I guess you weren't taking notes or are you just real quick on the delete trigger. kris | Message 44 Subject: Re: helping shy lurkers From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:14:13 -0500 (CDT) Hey Mike tell me about Jai he E-mailed me a while back and I'd like to try to help him with his opertation so whats he doing Bruce | Message 45 Subject: Re: Hanging pots vs grow beds From: fishmanbruce 'at' webtv.net (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:29:20 -0500 (CDT) No I started work at 3:30am and just got home from work at 8:pm and my mind is not as sharp as I'd like it to be. I am just sleepy I quess and should hit th sack but I'm waiting up for my wife to get back Bruce | Message 46 Subject: Fwd. new insurance program to target the fast-growing fish farming From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:10:13 -0500 From: "Paul Gehl" Subject: new insurance program to target the fast-growing fish farming Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:16:23 -0700 The Hartford Hooks Program for Fish Farmers New Livestock Insurance Could Spare Repercussions of an Unexpected Loss HARTFORD, Conn., July 25 /PRNewswire/ -- Fish farmers need no longer flounder in their search for appropriate insurance protection. The Hartford Financial Services Group, a major insurer of livestock, has created a new insurance program to target the fast-growing fish farming business. Whether a fish farm is an indoor or outdoor operation, The Hartford now can protect this livestock through its Fishstock Mortality Program. (Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/19990824/HIGLOGO ) Fish farmers can enjoy broad coverage to ensure their operations are protected if fishstock die from weather conditions, diseases or mechanical and electrical breakdowns. The Hartford has introduced a customized insurance policy that partners fish farmers with their local insurance agents to review specific needs. The basic Fishstock Mortality Program covers fishstock that die as a result of specific causes of loss. Optional coverage can protect a fish farmer when a heating system breaks down, causing water temperature to fall, or when foreign or toxic substances infect the fishstock, all resulting in death of the fishstock. Special coverage includes transportation, fatal fish disease and deoxygenation of the water from the breakdown of an aeration system. "Our goal was to develop a policy that makes fish farmers comfortable," said Dave Berry, vice president of Livestock at The Hartford. "With so many things to think about in running a business, fish farmers need the security of knowing that their stock is well protected by an experienced, first-class insurance carrier." The Hartford has worked with the livestock industry and the independent agents that serve this industry for 85 years. Most recently the company has built on that experience and its relationships with independent agents to develop the industry-leading coverage and top-quality service that the fish farming industry demands. Fish such as tilapia, salmon and striped bass are popular among fish farmers but require knowledge and care to raise successfully. "The Hartford and its agents have the training and knowledge to assist farmers in this growing industry," said Berry. The Hartford Financial Services Group, Inc. (NYSE: HIG) is one of the nation's largest insurance and financial services companies, with 2000 revenues of $14.7 billion. As of March 31, 200l, The Hartford had assets of $165.5 billion and shareholders' equity of $8.4 billion. The company is a leading provider of investment products, life insurance and employee benefits; automobile and homeowners products; commercial property and casualty insurance; and reinsurance. | Message 47 Subject: RE: Greenwater sludge>>methane From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:12:11 -0500 Steve, Brent. I appreciate the technical feedback. I have been away from this stuff for a while. Our tank was a huge, welded steel sphere. This system was set up back in the late 70's though. Regulators vented excess gas to a torch that burned 24/7. I will never forget hearing the alarms go off one day. Some nitwit contractor had spliced a line with a boot material made for water .not gas! The sphere emptied into all the buildings. We evacuated 3 city blocks. It was a rush ventilating that entire plant (all buildings connected by tunnels). We had to use flashlights because we didn't want to risk hitting a light switch and igniting it. I was just an operator but fascinated by the technology. I have been looking at the Powerpoint presentation at the AgStar website which is a joint effort between the EPA and DOE. http://www.epa.gov/agstar/library/tech.html They have examples of successful operations here in the US. Lots of info there. Ok .out with the propane tanks I'll keep reading lol. Is storing it practical at all on a smaller scale? If we could get the states to pass favorable net metering laws, it could be used to run a generator. Minnesota is the only state I know of that requires energy producers to pay farmers retail for the extra electricity produced. This would go a long way to making systems pay for themselves. Mark | Message 48 Subject: RE: Hanging pots vs grow beds From: "Hurst, Steve ( China)" Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:58:56 +0800 Okay Kris, Your 'at' e moving to fast For me. I have just about got a Handle on the Spinning pots. I will have to take a rain check on the "talking" bit until I have mastered the above !! I 'at' m gonna be looking it up though . Steve H SNIP How about making the pots spinable, like a lazy Susan, over all plant health and harvest would be optimized by insuring equal sun to each plant. My wife always makes me turn all of her pots and portable grow beds. She grows bio-dynamically and has to have her special dirt, heavy dirt. I made the mistake of telling her,"why don't we try to take some of your garden dirt and put it in the greenhouse". It worked so well that she only wanted to use the greenhouse for her vegetables and her bio-dynamic garden was just used for flowers and herbs. Oh, and a place to keep her horn manure. I told her that I didn't like giving up my greenhouse but she said that the veggies would be happier in the greenhouse. You see, she was in this gardening club, something called Peralandra (I think), where they learned old Druid techniques to communicate with plants. It's like dowsing for water or sometimes called Kinesiology. Please no questions about this stuff, if you're interested in any of this stuff do an Internet search. I've only been an observer but, I have seen great results from all this white witchery stuff. Man talk about off-topic. Should I hold out my hands to get the ruler from the nun. kris | Message 49 Subject: Need pumps? From: "Thomas Short" Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:11:18 -0700 =_NextPart_001_0000_01C11617.8343C4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check this =20 http://www.graystonecreations.com/acc.htm#pondGet more from the Web. FRE= E MSN Explorer download : =_NextPart_001_0000_01C11617.8343C4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Check this

http://www.graystonecreations.com/acc.htm#pond

=



Get more from the Web. F= REE MSN Explorer download : http://ex= plorer.msn.com

=_NextPart_001_0000_01C11617.8343C4C0--

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