Aquaponics Digest - Thu 08/02/01



Message   1: Re: Waste tire burners
             from Michael Olson 

Message   2: http://www.biogeometry.org/
             from kris book 

Message   3: Re: Attie - Spirulina question
             from "Attie Esterhuyse" 

Message   4: RE: Waste tire burners
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message   5: Re: bacterial soup
             from dreadlox

Message   6: Re: Re:GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
             from "Dorothy Mann" 

Message   7: Sea salt
             from "jimtee" 

Message   8: Re: Attie - Spirulina question
             from "gerry magnuson" 

Message   9: Sea Energy/Concentrace
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  10: RE: Re:GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  11: REPOST INFORMATION Re: November Conference
             from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message  12: On the road  for the month.             from "Arlos" 

Message  13: Spirulina
             from "Robert Rogers" 

Message  14: RE: Attie - Spirulina question
             from "Hurst, Steve ( China)" 

Message  15: Re: DC voltage, physician's answer.
             from Michael Olson 

Message  16: spirulina
             from "Robert Rogers" 

Message  17: Spirulina/Algae discussion from the Aquaponics mail group 1998
  - Part 1 of 2
             from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message  18: Spirulina/Algae discussion from the Aquaponics mail group 1998
  - Part 2 of 2
             from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message  19: Re: Sea Energy/Concentrace
             from "bennett" 

Message  20: RE: Attie - Spirulina question
             from "gerry magnuson" 

Message  21: nutrient content of duckweed
             from "bennett" 

Message  22: Re: nutrient content of duckweed
             from "gerry magnuson" 

Message  23: Re: Sea salt
             from  (Bruce Schreiber)

Message  24: Re: nutrient content of duckweed
             from "Thomas Short" 

Message  25: RE: nutrient content of duckweed
             from "Chris Jeppesen" 

Message  26: RE: Sea Energy/Concentrace
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  27: RE: nutrient content of duckweed
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

.         .
| Message 1                                                           

Subject: Re: Waste tire burners
From:    Michael Olson 
Date:    Wed, 1 Aug 2001 23:18:46 -0700 (PDT)

I read that this system is completely non-polluting. 
Seems like a bold statement, but worth looking into.  
I have not pursued this any further than reading the
info at the link I gave in the original message.

Maybe he would develop a smaller system.
-Mike

.         .
| Message 2                                                           

Subject: http://www.biogeometry.org/
From:    kris book 
Date:    Thu, 2 Aug 2001 00:53:27 -0600

I got this link from a doctor that contacted me about operating a couple
of greenhouses. If this stuff is true, it is by far the most far out
thing I've ever seen. Scroll to bottom of the page to see what they say
about total pest control without chemicals or predators, extended shelf
life, and then check the home page if you dare. Can anybody translate
this stuff from English to American so I can understand it. This doctor
is very serious about this therapy, on people and plants.

http://www.biogeometry.org/

http://www.biogeometry.com

kris

.         .
| Message 3                                                           

Subject: Re: Attie - Spirulina question
From:    "Attie Esterhuyse" 
Date:    2 Aug 2001 08:51:08 +0200

bennett wrote:

> What temperature is too hot for Spirulina?
> This thread is getting REALLY interesting!

"Below 20C, growth is practically nil, but spirulina does not die. The optimum
temperature for growth is 35C, but above 38C spirulina is in danger."

This is from the condensed version of the book "Manual of small scale spirulina
culture" written by Jean-Paul Jourdan ( jpj 'at' bsi.fr ) in French, and distributed
by Antenna Technology.

.         .
| Message 4                                                           

Subject: RE: Waste tire burners
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Thu, 2 Aug 2001 01:56:34 -0500

>I read that this system is completely non-polluting. 
>Seems like a bold statement, but worth looking into.  
>I have not pursued this any further than reading the
>info at the link I gave in the original message.

>Maybe he would develop a smaller system.
>-Mike

-----

Mike
.GO FOR IT!  

.nothing ventured, nothing gained.  The burners and
combustion systems can be VERY efficient and non-polluting.
It then becomes a matter of ash make-up.  I would think that 
tires wouldn't leave much but carbon, but I haven't looked 
into it.  Brent's advice about contacting people using the
system you are looking at is a good one

using the best
equipment you can find is money well spent. 

I am seriously looking into selling the Clean Burn waste oil 
burners, also corn boilers

and anything else related to
'waste to energy' systems.  Convert those mountains of tires 
setting around into heat and you will have something.  That
heat can be used in several ways
.like a hydronic heating
system but also making steam to run a turbine generator (not 
feasible for everyone, but possible and fun to think about).  
Make that heat do as many things as it can and you will have
a much greater return on your investment.

I don't know much about tire burners
.but I know tires burn
VERY HOT!  The worse fire we ever had here was a tire warehouse.

Keep me posted if you look into it further.

mark

.         .
| Message 5                                                           

Subject: Re: bacterial soup
From:    dreadlox
Date:    Thu, 02 Aug 2001 03:20:59 -0700

bennett wrote:

> >
> Would you mind sharing a recipe for your "self mixed bacterial soup to
> excude feacal coliform from the faecal coliform infected growbed"?
>     D.

D, as Ted would have said, this is STATE SECRET!! (lol) The ENTIRE
SECRET is already revealed here

Never underestimate the power of these little fellas to
> >put the BAD bacteria in the MINORITY!!

Think of it this way, put 20 tilapia mixed sex into a tank with 100
mixed sex striped bass. As we know the tilapia are pretty fecund, but so
is the bass a voracious carnivore!! Now if we are to leave them alone,
what would we get after 4 months?? Id would say some FAT bass!! I dont
believe the tilapia could keep up making babies fast enough for the fast
growing bass population to eat!!

In much the same way, you can stifle the bad bacteria by putting someone
else in charge. It is imposrtant to remember that in a biofilter,
Nitrosomas and Nitrobacter are the 2 main goodie bacteria, but the
secret lies in flooding say the bed with a brew of some other good
bacterial source, which can afterwards be re-inoculated to something
good. There are a number of waste stream liquids that come to mind.
Think breweries, or washwater from some food manufacturing plants, or
even a naturally occuring source, just ANYTHING BUT the faecal badboys.

Please note that this is only really an option when you dont want to
kill the whole growbed or biofilter bacterial population. Faecal
babdboys can make you mighty ill, so be careful and please do your
checks and balances. Whatever you are doing make sure that anything that
will come in human contact is bacterially sound. Stay safe!! 

To Chris Jeppesen, I have built an hydro ponics like system to clean
wastewater using just plants and of course bacteria. This is quite a big
difference than hydro/aquaponics for human consumption. After a shutdown
of the UV system by careless operators, we had a situation where we
could either chlorinate/disinfect the affected growbeds, or use "the
battle of the fittest" to win back the growbeds without having to go
through restoring them from SCRATCH. I opted for and won with the second
option.
DUE CARE IS ALWAYS NECESSARY WITH BACTERIA FROM ANY SOURCE AND FOOD
PRODUCTS FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION!!!
-- 
 ><{{{*> Mike Barnett <*}}}><
     JAMAICA, West Indies

.         .
| Message 6                                                           

Subject: Re: Re:GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
From:    "Dorothy Mann" 
Date:    Thu, 2 Aug 2001 07:32:44 -0500

Hi-
Is it possible to get a small amount of ' sea solids' to experiment with?
I truely am Becky Hines- Dorothy Mann is my 87 year old mother who lives
with us. ( she lends moral support to everything I do) I subscribed on her
email account - I love 'listening' to all of you 'talk'.

Becky Hines

----- Original Message -----
From: "dyarrow" 

Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 2:27 PM
Subject: Re:GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)

> in the 1950's, dr. maynard murray discovered that plants grown with "sea
> solids" are superior in every way to conventionally fertilized crops.  not
> only grow better, stronger, hardier, faster -- but they taste better and
> refuse to get diseased.  with measureably higher levels of nutrients --
not
> only minerals, but vitamins.  in over 25 years, he tested sea solids on a
> wide range of crops, and then teste those crops as animal feeds.
>
> he tested his sea solids with hydroponics, too, and was astonished at
their
> success.  he started a hydroponic farm near fort myers, florida, and made
a
> great deal of money raising and marketing tomatoes, cukes, peppers, and
> other produce.  his produce was preferred by buyers not only for its
> superior taste, quality, and productivity, but had a much longer keeping
> time.
>
> "sea solids" is not salt in the common sense of sodium chloride (table
> salt), but contain all essential minerals in sea water, especially trace
> elements.  these minerals are present in precise ratios essentially the
same
> as in human blood.  dr. murray realized that refined salt (sodium
chloride)
> as a straight soil amendment will kill most crop plants.
>
> in the 1970's dr. murray wrote and published a small book -- sea energy
> agriculture -- on his 25+ years of research with sea solids.  his work was
> ignored, and he died believing his discoverie swere lost on our chemical
> crazy culture.
>
> however, the year before murray died, his hydroponic farm was bought by
don
> jansen, a mennonite grain and buffalo farmer in nebraska, who has kept the
> operation going succesfully, profitably for nearly 20 years since.  don
has
> become completely frustrated with the chemical fertilizer mentality
> entrenched in america, and is now taking his system to haiti.
>
> i wrote an article about dr. murray's research, with excerpts from his
book:
> www.championtrees.org/topsoil/SeaEnergy.htm
>
> ~  David Yarrow
> Turtle EyeLand Sanctuary
> 44 Gilligan Road, East Greenbush, NY 12061
> 518-477-6100
> www.championtrees.org
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gerry magnuson" 
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 9:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [FUTURE-CITIES] Re: [isml] GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
>
>
> > aloha, you may try finding OTEC in kailua-kona, hawaii, as they utilize
> deep
> > water from the ocean, comes up cold with tons of nutrients, not salty as
> on
> > the surface, there are free grants to try any product at the site, many
> > failure, and a few successes, someone may find and contact them, saw it
> > advertised with aquaponic, seaweeds and kelp are in high demand
.the
> first
> > tomato grown in saltwater successfully was at the beach below the pool
> house
> > at pebble beach, someone had thrown their slice from a hamburger or
such,
> > the plant was growing and producing fruit, tomato IS a fruit
.UCD in
> > california was doing hard research for crops to be grownin salt
> conditions,
> > the salton sea in southern california being the test study and purpose,
> > started in the 70s, UC, davis has a very extensive library on most all
> > subjects
.coffeecowboy
>

.         .
| Message 7                                                           

Subject: Sea salt
From:    "jimtee" 
Date:    Thu, 2 Aug 2001 08:44:42 -0400

Does anyone have any thoughts about using the salt water aquarium salt as
the source for using

on plants ? It is readily available at tropical fish shops.

jimtee

.         .
| Message 8                                                           

Subject: Re: Attie - Spirulina question
From:    "gerry magnuson" 
Date:    Thu, 02 Aug 2001 04:19:22 -1000

as I mentioned OTEC in hawaii, spirulina(sp) is one of the mor successful 
ventures there, they produce it in powder form and tablet, I believe
.don't 
remember the name of the company, but they supply healthfood stores around 
the states
.coffeecowboy

>From: "Attie Esterhuyse" 
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>Subject: Re: Attie - Spirulina question
>Date: 2 Aug 2001 08:51:08 +0200
>
>
>
>bennett wrote:
>
> > What temperature is too hot for Spirulina?
> > This thread is getting REALLY interesting!
>
>"Below 20C, growth is practically nil, but spirulina does not die. The 
>optimum
>temperature for growth is 35C, but above 38C spirulina is in danger."
>
>This is from the condensed version of the book "Manual of small scale 
>spirulina
>culture" written by Jean-Paul Jourdan ( jpj 'at' bsi.fr ) in French, and 
>distributed
>by Antenna Technology.
>

 

.         .
| Message 9                                                           

Subject: Sea Energy/Concentrace
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Thu, 2 Aug 2001 09:24:40 -0500

>Sodium chloride, the major component of sea water, is normally 
>toxic to plants. However, my method prevents the salinity from 
>affecting the root structure of the plants. 

This was taken from the Sea Energy Aquaculture page at:
http://www.championtrees.org/topsoil/seaponics.htm

Can someone tell me how this method works?

The Seaponics subject is very intersting.  I have used a product
to re-mineralize my drinking/cooking water called Concentrace
for a year or so now.  http://www.traceminerals.com/research.html
It is taken from the great inland sea beds of Utah and has had 99% 
of the sodium removed.  For a while now, I have wondered if I could 
use it in hydroponics.  Time for a little experiment
.I'll keep 
you posted.

Mark

.         .
| Message 10                                                          

Subject: RE: Re:GM tomato thrives on salt (fwd)
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Thu, 2 Aug 2001 11:28:06 -0500

Hi-
Is it possible to get a small amount of ' sea solids' to experiment with?
I truely am Becky Hines- Dorothy Mann is my 87 year old mother who lives
with us. ( she lends moral support to everything I do) I subscribed on her
email account - I love 'listening' to all of you 'talk'.

Becky Hines
----

Hi Becky,

Welcome.  Say hi to mom for us (my grandmother is 87
.I know what
you mean about the moral support:)  I like 'listening' to the 'talk'
too

the conversational and friendly nature of the list may add
a few emails but it is also what makes it a 'discussion' and keeps it
fun/interesting.

we are glad you broke your silence
.*smiling* 

Mark

.         .
| Message 11                                                          

Subject: REPOST INFORMATION Re: November Conference
From:    S & S Aqua Farm 
Date:    Thu, 02 Aug 2001 12:03:44 -0500

 Steve Spring wrote:
>
>Has anyone sent an email to the list with the itinerary for the NC
>conference in November? I think I have my scanner working properly now and
>will send the itinerary to the list if any wish. I don't want to send this
>if there are those who don't want. Paula, jump in on this if you would.

Steve- the information was just posted to the group the end of June.  If you
receive calls, just refer them to the organizers' information below. 

Bert McLaughlin has copies he's willing to mail as well (being one of the
presenters).   Bert said he'd post some details ASAP.

Steve, if you're willing to retype the information that's fine, but I think
scanning an attachment at this point (with all the multiple virus invasions
going on) would be unwise.

Paula

Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 06:49:57 -0500
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
From: S & S Aqua Farm 
Subject: Fwd. - Aquaponics Course

From: Myra D Colgate 

Hello, Everyone, 
        Please include this in your calendar of events, messages, etc. to get the
information out to those you feel might benefit.    If you have any
questions please feel free to contact myself or Charles.
Myra Colgate
Aquaculture International, Inc.
Journalist, E-mail:  mldcol 'at' juno.com

Aquaculture International, Inc. is a USA non-profit organization dedicated
to the economically sound, environmentally compatable growth of the
aquaculture industry. 

NEWS RELEASE
                                                      AQUAPONICS COURSE

Aquaponics interest is increasing globally in response to more emphasis
on resource management, sustainability and waste management. It involves
combining of aquaculture and hydroponics for mutual benefit. To help meet
the demand for instruction, a practical course in Aquaponics will be held in
Bryson City, NC, November 6 - 9, 2001.

Lecture and AV presentations will include components of aquaponic systems,
fish and plant selection, balancing fish/plant production for efficiency and
optimum
yields, utilizing old farm and other buildings, small scale pilot projects,
systems design, natural pest control, meeting organic standards, economics,
specialty
markets for higher profitability and accessing technical assistance and
information.
Sites of interest, including a thriving commercial hydroponic lettuce greenhouse
operation and a watercress production operation utilizing trout farm
effluent water
will be visited.

The lead instructor will be Gordon Creaser, who has been involved in hydroponics
for over 40 years and travels world-wide as an aquaponic consultant.  He is well
known for his down-to-earth practical advice.  In addition, owners of
several successful aquaponic facilities will share useful information
concerning the design and operation of their systems. The class atmosphere
will be informal, allowing plenty of time for questions and
personal attention.

For a course brochure and registration information, contact Aquaculture
International, Inc., P.O. Box 606, Andrews, NC 28901. Phone or fax:
828-479-6294. Email:
cwjohnson 'at' graham.main.nc.us

.         .
| Message 12                                                          

Subject: On the road  for the month.From:    "Arlos" 
Date:    Thu, 2 Aug 2001 12:06:36 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

=_NextPart_000_000A_01C11B4B.941CD820
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

See everyone in Sept. Work out of the area calls. It will be interesting =
to see what the topics du jur have been for the next 3 weeks when I get =
back. Play nice in here.

Along the Pacific,

Arlos

=_NextPart_000_000A_01C11B4B.941CD820
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









See everyone in Sept. Work out of = the area=20 calls. It will be interesting to see what the topics du jur have been = for the=20 next 3 weeks when I get back. Play nice in here.
 
Along the Pacific,
 
Arlos
=_NextPart_000_000A_01C11B4B.941CD820-- . . | Message 13 Subject: Spirulina From: "Robert Rogers" Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:14:38 -0400 Has anyone produced/used spirulina for tilapia feed. I have read about how wonderful this algae is, but would like to hear from someone that has real experiance and not trying to sell me an expensive product. Bob . . | Message 14 Subject: RE: Attie - Spirulina question From: "Hurst, Steve ( China)" Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 05:46:36 +0800 Hi "coffeecowboy" Did a search for the company as I have been trying to find a company that can supply spirulia Came up with http://www.cyanotech.com/ Do you recall the name of the company at all ? Unfortunately I cannot view the site from work, as the "websense" filter rejects the site as its title includes the words "unregulated compounds" Will have to wait until I get home in a couple of weeks to check it out. Anyone have any experience with this supplier ?? Steve H SNIP as I mentioned OTEC in hawaii, spirulina(sp) is one of the mor successful ventures there, they produce it in powder form and tablet, I believe .don't remember the name of the company, but they supply healthfood stores around the states .coffeecowboy >From: "Attie Esterhuyse" >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com >To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com >Subject: Re: Attie - Spirulina question >Date: 2 Aug 2001 08:51:08 +0200 > > > >bennett wrote: > > > What temperature is too hot for Spirulina? > > This thread is getting REALLY interesting! > >"Below 20?C, growth is practically nil, but spirulina does not die. The >optimum >temperature for growth is 35?C, but above 38?C spirulina is in danger." > >This is from the condensed version of the book "Manual of small scale >spirulina >culture" written by Jean-Paul Jourdan ( jpj 'at' bsi.fr ) in French, and >distributed >by Antenna Technology. > . . | Message 15 Subject: Re: DC voltage, physician's answer. From: Michael Olson Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:46:51 -0700 (PDT) There is a range of current (I think 2-20 mA) that would cause the heart to stop in the manner Attie describes. Current below that range does nothing, above does other bad things besides stopping the heart. -Mike --- Attie Esterhuyse wrote: > Sorry for opening this discussion again. I spoke to > a physician on the risks > of low voltage dc, 9V, when the current is > transmitted through the bodily > fluids, as would happen when one's skin is pricked. > He said that this would > be fatal if the current cross the heart. This is > when it flows from one hand > to the other. > > If we combine this with the other e-mails, the one > on the guy who tested his > internal resistance and another one on bad wires > that might prick the skin, > it is better to be very careful. > > Just thought I must tell you all. > > Attie > > > . . | Message 16 Subject: spirulina From: "Robert Rogers" Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 19:34:19 -0400 Earthrise Farms produces spirulina. www.spirulina.com/ . . | Message 17 Subject: Spirulina/Algae discussion from the Aquaponics mail group 1998 - Part 1 of 2 From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 18:48:51 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:30:46 -0600 From: S & S Aqua Farm Subject: Fwd - spirulina information Received the following information on spirulina today from a spirulina farm. Since we've been discussing ways to provide alternative organic feed for aquaponics, I'm asking for comments on the following "facts". Would this possibly be a way to provide necessary protein levels without using fish meal as a base? Opinions welcome on any points. Paula > >Spirulina Benefits for Fishes >Spirulina Contains all natural high quality protein, vitamins, minerals, >phytonutrients, enzymes, antibiotic for healthy and colorful >fishes. Fish feed containing 1 to 10% spirulina provides the best >natural color enhancer for the robust and colorful fish. >It increases resistance to parasites, viral and bacterial diseases due >to enhanced cellular immune system function, increases survival rate >and growth rate, reduces medication requirements, improves fertility >rate, stimulates feeding, reduces waste in the effluent without costly >water treatment systems. Spirulina improves the cost / performance ratio >of fish feed. Spirulina is fed to fish by experts as natural color >enhancer and antibiotics. > >Facts of Spirulina >1. All natural, raw food, the earth's first plant, food foundation >for all lives. >2. Highest and best protein ( Min. 58% ) with all essential amino >acids. It is 3 times richer than fish, beef, egg; 2 times richer than >the nearest rival soybean. Its muco-proteins enhance fish's healthy and >shinning skin. >3. Highest beta carotene source, the natural antibiotic and immune >systems booster. Its rich carotenoids enhance the brilliant colors of >fishes. >4. Rich source of all vitamins and biochelated minerals needed by >fishes. It has higest source of biochelated iron. 58 times richer than >spinach. It has higest source of B-12 which provide energy for play and >growth. >5. Rich source of Chlorophyll which is a blood purifier. >6. Richest source of Gamma Linolenic Acid that lowers blood cholesterol >and high blood pressure. Fatty acids are essential for organs >development. >7. Over two thousand of raw enzymes that help fishes break down food, >absorb nutrients, and improve digestion. Phycocyanin reduces obesity. >8. United Nations says " Spirulina is the most ideal food for mankind." > It is a super food for your fishes too. Weight for weight, no food >provides more nutrients than spirulina! ---- From: "Ted Ground" Subject: Re: Fwd - spirulina information Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:26:58 -0600 Hello, everyone, I am an aquatic biologist, and I am submitting this comment to Spirulina as my first posting to this group. While I think that Spirulina is a very attractive fish feed ingredient, and should be actively encouraged as an ingredient in fish diets, I also want to point out that aquaponics growing systems can make use of the recirculation and ebb and flow aspects of their systems by installing algal turf scrubbers to supplement their fish diet, by allowing nutrient rich water to flow across a plate or screen as it returns to the water tank, then periodically "harvesting" algal turf biomass and feeding it to the fish. I highly recommend that ya'll read "Dynamic Aquaria", written by folks who developed model ecosystems such as those displayed at the Smithsonian, etc. Algal turf scrubbers are one of my favorite water quality tools and design principles, and they are fairly easy to do. Ebb and Flow is very important to such systems. Talk to Ya'll Later, Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:45:11 -0400 (AST) From: james.rakocy 'at' uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.) Hi, I'm new to the group. Just some short responses to Paula and Ted. Spirula may be a good food additive but it is also very expensive. Spirulina farms dry and encapsulate it and sell spirulina as health food. The price per kg is many times greater than fish meal and so it would not be economiclly feasible for food fish feed, already a major production cost, but it may be economically feasible as aquaria feed for expensive and colorful ornamentals. In aquaponics all available surface area should be devoted to high value plant production (lettuce, herbs, etc.). This is critical to turn a profit, especially in environmently controlled greenhouses. Although algae is a good food for herbivorous/omnivorous fish, it is more than 95% water. It is economically better to feed a concentrated, dry (<10% water), complete (contains all necessary vitamins and minerals) diet and let the hydroponic plants contribute to wastewater treatment, as they remove nutrients even faster than algal turf, the rate of uptake depending on the type of vegetable, herb, etc. Jim R. ----- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:03:07 -0600 From: Gordon Watkins Subject: Spirulina Paula, I forwarded your questions on spirulina on to a fish nutritionist who provided the following response: Gordon > 1) Ask the company for a list of publications (or citations) suppporting > their claims for Spirulina - > I'll see if I can locate some of them here (articles in major aquaculture > journals such as "Journal of the world aquaculture society", or "Aquaculture" > would be easiest to find). The attributes claimed by the company are not > stated relative to any specific type of feedstuff or diet (Spirulina > improves survival rate . (relative to what?). A scientific assessment of > the nutritional value of Spirulina should include such comparisons. > > 2. Ask for analytical information on the nutrient content of Spirulina. With > quantitative information you can compare the value of Spirulina as a nutrient > source to other sources more typically used in foodfish diets (I have published > values for all of the standard feedstuffs). At a minimum you should ask for > data on the amounts and types of amino acids present in Spirulina. With the > amino acid profile you can speculate on its value as a protein source. > > 3. What level of inclusion does the company recommend that you use if you > are replacing Fish meal with Spirulina? A high level may cause discoloration > of the flesh of the Tilapia (a greenish color). Corn products are limited in > catfish feeds for the same reason (it causes an undesirable yellow color). > > 4. Perhaps I should have mentioned this first- I would be surprised if > Spirulina was less expensive than fish meal - it is highly valued as health > food for humans which probably makes it prohibitively expensive for use in > fish feeds (except for ornamental fish). Even if Spirulina is a great protein > source for Tilapia will your market pay enough for your product to offset the > added cost of the feed? - to be continued . . | Message 18 Subject: Spirulina/Algae discussion from the Aquaponics mail group 1998 - Part 2 of 2 From: S & S Aqua Farm Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 18:49:37 -0500 - Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:54:12 -0400 (AST) From: james.rakocy 'at' uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.) Subject: algal nutrition for tilapia Hello Everyone, I was just looking at some of our data and I've been doing a lit. review concerning mamured and/or fertilized ponds as well as fed ponds. You might find the results interesting. In our greenwater recirculating system (clarification only) that was choked with algae, including periphyton (attached algae) and dead algae in a 1.4 m3 clarifier with only 15 male Nile tilapia in it, the clarifier tilapia grew at a rate of 0.48 g/day (initial weight was 71 g) while the open tank fish (28.6 m3 tank volume) stocked at 26 fish/m3 which received ample floating pelleted feed (32% protein) grew at a rate of 2.64 g/day, same initial weight. The clarifier fish did not get pellets. The data (courtesy of Bill Cole) was based on three replications. So it seems that feeding to satiation with algae in this system produces only 18% of the growth rate that can be achieved with a concentrated dry (91.1% dry matter) feed pellet. With algae, fish eat a lot of water which must be voided, which cuts their daily dry matter intake and requires energy. Now in ponds with manure and/or fertilizer, the best growth rates for male Nile tilapia are about 1 g/day, often less. The fish are usually stocked at 1-3 fish/m3. Studies show that the main value of the manure is for the inorganic nutrients it releases for algal growth. With feed or feed and fertilizer the growth rate will go up to about 3 g/day, but sometimes much less. This is a vast simplification that not does not consider many factors such as water quality. But here again the algae-based system only produces about 33% of the growth rate obtained with feed. The densities were much lower than the greenwater tanks but there was no supplemental areation to improve water quality as in the heavily stocked greenwater tanks. Now in our aquaponic tanks just a couple weeks ago we achieved an average growth rate for male red tilapia of 3.7 g/day at a stocking rate of 143 fish/m3, but the water quality was excellent, no pure oxygen though. In the past with male Nile tilapia at 89 fish/m3 in an aquaponic system, we obtained growth rates of 4.9 g/day. What does this all mean? It means that algae is a fine food for tilapia if it comes free or at low cost and you can live with low growth rates. If, however, you are paying dearly for heating, aeration and pumping, have a limited amount of space, and would like to recoup some of your output by selling the fish, you better stick with concentrated fish feeds and forget the algae. I'm braced for the critiques. Jim Rakocy - Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 08:47:15 +1100 From: "H.Doelle" Subject: Re: algal nutrition for tilapia Dear James, Very interesting results indeed. However, I think you make too rush a judgement in regard to algae feeding. I have a couple of comments: 1. you mention the requirement mainly for inorganic nutrients instead of organics in feeding your fish. This is why the use of diluted effluent from biodigesters is such a good source. It has been shown that the 30-40% residual BOD in the effluent can be further reduced by oxygenating the pond in which the effluent flows either by aeration and/or by algae and the effluent from that pond is excellent source for fish production. At that stage the organics are low, but the inorganics are still high. 2. I would be careful with comparing algal feed with the artificial feed you can buy. Are you 100% sure that there are no antibiotics, hormones and/or other stimulants in it ? I found some of them a few years ago in an Asian feed. If you do the system under point 1, you have the algae very cheap, as you produce it yourself. I also have seen in Mexico, that they produce fish with the algae in the same pond, as the algae oxygenate the pond, but I am not sure whether it is enough oxygen. If you use the shallow pond with algae between the anaerobic digester tank and the deeper fish pond, the feed from the shallow pond is oxygenated through the algae. 3. I think, although I am not an experienced aquaponist as yet, the fish response to feed is a little more complicated than you state it. Surely you must also have great expense for the commercial feed. I thought you may be interested in a different aspect of thought. Best wishes Horst W.Doelle,D.Sc. Director, MIRCEN-Biotechnology Brisbane Chairman, IOBB Hon.Member of Depts. Microbiology & Chemical Engineering FAX: +617-38783230 Email: H.Doelle 'at' mailbox.uq.edu.au -- Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:35:29 -0600 From: John Shannonhouse Subject: Re: algal nutrition for tilapia Hello, On 5 Feb 1998, James Rakocy wrote: <> A prediction of this hypothesis is that dried algae (or plants) should produce higher rates of growth than fully hydrated algae. To your knowledge has anyone tried this experiment? The reason I'm asking is that I'm working on a mariculture system where algae would be cheap relative to common feeds due to the location of the facility and growth conditions for algae. John Shannonhouse - Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:01:43 -0400 (AST) From: james.rakocy 'at' uvi.edu (James Rakocy, Ph.D.) Subject: Re: algal nutrition for tilapia Usually the feed conversion ratio for wet aquatic plants, including filamentous algae, is in the range of 20 to 30:1. On a dry weight basis I read recently the feed conversion ratio of filamentous algae is 2:1 for tilapia, but I don't know what the growth rate was. I'm not sure if total drying would alter the quality or palatability. Maybe partial drying would be best. Seems like a good and relatively easy experiment to attempt. What's the amino acid profile of algae? I'm sure it varies. How does it compare to the amino acid profile of fish meal. Is there a fish nutritionist in the house? I forgot to mention that in commercial production, growth rates are secondary to the bottom line. It could be that a 1 g/day growth rate is better than a 5 g/day rate if very low inputs make the low growth-rate system more profitable. The problem with high tech recirculating systems is that the inputs are too high so that profits are meager or nonexistent. That could be where an intermediate level of technology, coupled with hydroponic plant production, comes in. Jim Rakocy - Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:30:57 -0500 From: Jack Rowe Subject: Re: algal nutrition for tilapia I think the question of the usefulness of algae and animal manures in aquatic systems depends very much on whether we are talking about _intensive_ or _low-input_ systems, and on whether these systems are aquaPONICS systems (dual plant/fish focus) or aquaCULTURE systems (fish main focus). Algae are a vital part of _natural_ aquatic systems, being the main food source for fry and many zooplanktons. However, algal levels are easily overdone, in which case fish suffer poor metabolism, disease or even suffocation (while algae oxygenate water during the day, they use O2 rapidly at night and can quickly cause depletion). Further, the biochemical oxygen demand of algae is seriously complicated by the very high stocking rates common in aquaponics systems. Few or no commercially-important adult fish naturally rely completely on algae for their dietary intake -- the fact that most adult fish gain weight faster with supplemental food than on algae alone is indisputable. Dr. Doelle's point of "antibiotics, hormones and/or other stimulants" in commercial feeds is, to me, very much a valid concern. Tilapia can be supplementally fed with a variety of natural waste products, including beer and grain mill wastes, bran, cottonseed meal, etc. Also his point that "the fish response to feed is .complicated" is very true -- feeding is influenced strongly by temperature, dissolved oxygen, pH and other factors. The need for supplemental aeration in a tank 'choked' with algae is no coincidence, for instance, and one direct result of low O2 is slow feeding, poor food metabolism and low weight gain. Also, algae in natural systems are part of an entire complex of inter-related elements (zooplanktons, fry, insect larvae, etc). A single element taken from a natural system and isolated from related elements can create pollution from what would be a resource. Dr. Rakocy's point that production costs in constructed aquaponics systems may force some level of intensive management (ie, supplemental feeding) to raise cash flow to cover fixed overhead is cogent. I'm not sure that thorough cost/benefit analyses have been done for all the elements of these systems, for instance costs of various foods vs fish weight gain vis-a-vis the large fixed overhead. Aquaponics systems as a whole can more than pay for themselves, though. At the same time, as Paula has mentioned, high veggie profits basically pay the way for the less-profitable table fish produced in many systems. This latter point -- that aquaponic veggie production is very profitable/cost-effective -- is the crux of the algae issue in the context of this list. Dissolved nutrients which feed algae (for a relatively small profit in fish weight gain) could instead be used to feed vegetables which bring a very high profit. In a system where the most valuable raw resource is the fish's wastes, algae can reasonably be considered pollution, or at least a drain on resources. Algae's nighttime biochemical oxygen demand can also be unacceptable given the stocking rates used in aquaponics systems. Using manures, algae, composts, etc. have a cost-effective function in natural aquaculture ponds (as does some moderate level of supplemental feeding); I suspect that in aquaPONICS tanks, where veggies are a major income, algae cost more in nutrient loss to veggies than they return in fish weight gain. I do think it is important to continue to consider the interaction of all these elements, and to study the different inputs from a cost/benefit view (I'd like to see ecological costs taken into account here), or with a view toward hybridization of technologies and/or food supplies, fry production, etc. Jack Rowe ---- From: "Ted Ground" Subject: Re: algal nutrition for tilapia Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 04:12:52 -0600 James, Wanted to let you know that I generally agree with your analysis of algal inputs, except to say that in a study of tilapia feeding on both pellets and natural phytoplankton in Israeli ponds (I am drawing this from memory, so take this with a grain of salt) carbon isotope analysis of the tilapia carcasses indicated that 50% of their carbon was from algal and bacterial detritus consumption and assimilation- which doesn't quite line up with your 33% on algae alone if I read your posting correctly- but it is close, and probably within analytical or experimental error ranges and certainly within the broad ballpark of agreement that we have to expect in any system in which biology is involved. My earlier comments on algae, as you recall, did not advocate algae as a do all and be all- I simply suggested that some supplemental algae could serve as a source of carotenoids, vitamins, essential fatty acids, and some protein and carbs, while at the same time you are getting some of the benefits of water quality improvement from REASONABLE standing crops of algal biomass harvested by the fish, either in the form of phytoplankton, periphyton, etc. And certainly, I thought my comments were understood to be framed within the context of operating costs and the economics of feed ingredients, etc. Ted Ground --- Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:25:56 -0600 From: John Shannonhouse Subject: More on algae v. pellet feed Hello, I was thinking more about the experiments that James Rakocy described. It does seem that algae is inferior to pellet feed (a 3- to 5-fold growth difference). The experiments prove that as long as cheap pellet feed is available, pellets are superior to algae as food. I would not discount algae's value as a food source, however. There are a number of variables that are not controled, in my opinion. Then again, I'm no aquaculturist; I may be making some obvious mistakes (if I am, please point them out). The variables are: 1) Continuous (algae) v. periodic (pellet) feeding: How often do the Tilapia eat when they have food around all day? >From what I read about Tilapia, their digestive systems take awhile to get going. They need to lower the pH of the first stage of their digestive system (I forget the term used, and I don't have the book in front of me) to around 2. As a result, when the fish are fed algae, the first of the algae they ate were not digested because their cell walls were not broken. As the Tilapia digest their food, they must raise the pH as it travels through their digestive system. All of this takes energy. If the Tilapia are feeding continuously or taking in a relatively small amount of food many times per day as opposed to larger quantities of food a few times per day (when they are fed pellets), they will be spending a lot more energy running their digestive system and thus less energy growing. (Was edible detritus available to the pellet-fed Tilapia?) 2) Eating small algal particles v. pellets: It was not clear if you were including this point in your previous post (as opposed to point #3, which you did cover). I don't know how large the pellets are compared the the algal fillaments, but I suspect that the pellets are smaller. That means that the fish need to swallow more water with their food to eat the same mass of algae as a food pellet. Not only is the algae itself more hydrated than the food pellet, but the fish must deal with more water. It needs to lower and raise the pH of that water (see point #1) and to feed for a longer period of time with each feeding, costing the fish more energy. 3.) Hydration of the food: A given mass of pellet has more dry mass (thus more available energy) than the same mass of algae. Then again, a dried pellet may not be a fully utilized as a hydrated algal mass (picture clumps of pellet pieces passing through the digestive system with only the outer parts of the clumps being utilized because the componets don't get fully solublized). The overall amount of nutrition gained from the pellet is probably higher, though. 4.) Composition of the food: What nutrients (if any) are limiting in Tilapia growth with commercial feeds? Has anyone found a mineral, vitamin, amino acid, etc. can be added to algae-based feeds (if any exist) that increases growth rate? It may be possible to add a cheap supplemental feed pellet to algae-fed fish that significantly increases their growth (if one or a few nutrients are limiting). An experiment that seems fairly simple to me is to make a series of feed pellets out of algae, commercial formula and algae/commercial formula mixture with various degrees of hydration (dry weight varying from as low a percentage as you can get it up to >90%) and see how quickly the Tilapia grow on each diet. As far as costs go, raising and harvesting algae might be more expensive than buying commercial feed (especially on a small scale). Keep in mind that when raising algae for fish feed, you don't need to keep the same standards of purity that you need for human food (health foods such as Spirulina and Chlorella). John Shannonhouse . . | Message 19 Subject: Re: Sea Energy/Concentrace From: "bennett" Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 22:00:24 -0400 >The Seaponics subject is very intersting. I have used a product >to re-mineralize my drinking/cooking water called Concentrace >for a year or so now Mark, have you felt or noticed any difference in your general health since using this product? D. . . | Message 20 Subject: RE: Attie - Spirulina question From: "gerry magnuson" Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 16:23:51 -1000 aloha, think that may be the company, you may search under fish, aquaculture in hawaii .they have a site but forgot to remember, not my bag .notice, looking for investors .hype is one thing .coffeecowboy >From: "Hurst, Steve ( China)" >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com >To: "'aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com'" >Subject: RE: Attie - Spirulina question >Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 05:46:36 +0800 > >Hi "coffeecowboy" > Did a search for the company as I have been trying to find a company >that can supply spirulia > >Came up with >http://www.cyanotech.com/ > >Do you recall the name of the company at all ? >Unfortunately I cannot view the site from work, as the >"websense" filter rejects the site as its title includes the words >"unregulated compounds" > >Will have to wait until I get home in a couple of weeks to check it out. >Anyone have any experience with this supplier ?? > >Steve H > >SNIP >as I mentioned OTEC in hawaii, spirulina(sp) is one of the mor successful >ventures there, they produce it in powder form and tablet, I >believe .don't > >remember the name of the company, but they supply healthfood stores around >the states .coffeecowboy > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Attie Esterhuyse" > >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com > >To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com > >Subject: Re: Attie - Spirulina question > >Date: 2 Aug 2001 08:51:08 +0200 > > > > > > > >bennett wrote: > > > > > What temperature is too hot for Spirulina? > > > This thread is getting REALLY interesting! > > > >"Below 20?C, growth is practically nil, but spirulina does not die. The > >optimum > >temperature for growth is 35?C, but above 38?C spirulina is in danger." > > > >This is from the condensed version of the book "Manual of small scale > >spirulina > >culture" written by Jean-Paul Jourdan ( jpj 'at' bsi.fr ) in French, and > >distributed > >by Antenna Technology. > > > > > > . . | Message 21 Subject: nutrient content of duckweed From: "bennett" Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 22:30:38 -0400 Could anyone point me to an address (or just tell me) where I can learn about duckweed? I'd like to find out the nutritional values of the plant. I don't think our discussions of duckweed awhile back actually specified any real numbers concerning the nutritional values. Thank you so much . I've got some serious research that has to be done in a REAL short period of time, so will appreciate LOTS of answers to the many dumb sounding questions I'll be asking of this *extended family*. :-) D. . . | Message 22 Subject: Re: nutrient content of duckweed From: "gerry magnuson" Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 16:40:04 -1000 no dumb questions, but have lots of dumb answers .coffeecowboy >From: "bennett" >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com > >Subject: nutrient content of duckweed >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 22:30:38 -0400 > >Could anyone point me to an address (or just tell me) where I can learn >about duckweed? I'd like to find out the nutritional values of the plant. >I don't think our discussions of duckweed awhile back actually specified >any >real numbers concerning the nutritional values. >Thank you so much . I've got some serious research that has to be done >in >a REAL short period of time, so will appreciate LOTS of answers to the many >dumb sounding questions I'll be asking of this *extended family*. :-) > D. > . . | Message 23 Subject: Re: Sea salt From: (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 21:44:37 -0500 (CDT) Jimtee Guys be careful of trying salt on your system its only tolerated by a very few plants and you will wipe out your system plantings real quick with it !!!!!!!! Later when we have clones that are salt tolerant try it but now you should remember that the vast desert areas of the world that once were lush irrigated gardens like most of the middle east are now waist lands.The ancient irrigation canals are still in place the water is still there to use but using it just brings up more salt destroying modern efforts to reclaim once fertile areas used since the beginning of time up to say the Mongoul invasion led by Timogin . It seems that only in the valleys like the Nile where they have major seasonal flooding are the salts washed away and agriculture can exist for any length of time SO DON'T WAIST YOUR MONEY FAILING TO REINVENT THE WHEEL DRYING UP YOUR PLANTS WITH SALT ok Bruce . . | Message 24 Subject: Re: nutrient content of duckweed From: "Thomas Short" Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 19:52:44 -0700 =_NextPart_001_0000_01C11B8C.B28952C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable check this: http://www.pondsplantsandmore.com =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: gerry magnuson Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 7:46 PM To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com Subject: Re: nutrient content of duckweed =20 no dumb questions, but have lots of dumb answers .coffeecowboy >From: "bennett" >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com > >Subject: nutrient content of duckweed >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 22:30:38 -0400 > >Could anyone point me to an address (or just tell me) where I can learn >about duckweed? I'd like to find out the nutritional values of the plan= t. >I don't think our discussions of duckweed awhile back actually specified >any >real numbers concerning the nutritional values. >Thank you so much . I've got some serious research that has to be don= e >in >a REAL short period of time, so will appreciate LOTS of answers to the m= any >dumb sounding questions I'll be asking of this *extended family*. :-) > D. > /intl.as= pGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn= .com =_NextPart_001_0000_01C11B8C.B28952C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
check this:
http://www.pondsplantsandmore.com 
 
=
----- Original Message -----
From: gerry magnuson<= /DIV>
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2= 001 7:46 PM
To: aquaponics 'at' t= ownsqr.com
Subject: Re: nutr= ient content of duckweed
 
no dumb questions, but ha= ve lots of dumb answers .coffeecowboy


>From: "bennett" <= ;>
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>T= o: <aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com>
>Subject: nutrient content of duc= kweed
>Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 22:30:38 -0400
>
>Could an= yone point me to an address (or just tell me) where I can learn
>ab= out duckweed?  I'd like to find out the nutritional values of the pl= ant.
>I don't think our discussions of duckweed awhile back actuall= y specified
>any
>real numbers concerning the nutritional val= ues.
>Thank you so much . I've got some serious research that ha= s to be done
>in
>a REAL short period of time, so will apprec= iate LOTS of answers to the many
>dumb sounding questions I'll be a= sking of this *extended family*. :-)
>     D.>


= __________
http://explorer.m= sn.com/intl.asp



Get= more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :

=_NextPart_001_0000_01C11B8C.B28952C0-- . . | Message 25 Subject: RE: nutrient content of duckweed From: "Chris Jeppesen" Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 20:27:19 -0700 >From the chart on page 12 of Duckweed Aquaculture Jorrney, Skillicorn, and Spira Duckweed (depending on water quality is 25-45% protein 9-12% fiber 12-18% ash and 14-18% fat. Chris Jeppesen > "bennett" Thu, 2 Aug 2001 22:30:38 -0400 Could anyone point me to an address (or just tell me) where I can learn about duckweed? I'd like to find out the nutritional values of the plant. I don't think our discussions of duckweed awhile back actually specified any real numbers concerning the nutritional values.Thank you so much . I've got some serious research that has to be done in a REAL short period of time, so will appreciate LOTS of answers to the many dumb sounding questions I'll be asking of this *extended family*. :-) . . | Message 26 Subject: RE: Sea Energy/Concentrace From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 23:53:50 -0500 >The Seaponics subject is very intersting. I have used a product >to re-mineralize my drinking/cooking water called Concentrace >for a year or so now Mark, have you felt or noticed any difference in your general health since using this product? D. -- Before I answer this I realize that even at 1% sodium, it may be too much for many plants. What I was more curious about was it's effect on fish health if any. Now, It is more likely the large amounts of water I drink than the minerals, but I feel much better. This supplement has a taste some may not like in higher doses. I use small amounts in my drinking water but more in my cooking water. About 2 years ago I was having some health problems and was looking into more natural approaches. I came across a book called "Your Body's many Cries For Water". It really opened my eyes. SOOO many things are related to dehydration. I'm a water nut from way back, and I knew that I should be drinking more but old habits die hard. Some bottled RO or distilled water has potassium chloride and magnesium sulfate (epsom salts) added to it for flavor. But more important than flavor is raising the PH back up which minerals do. Distilled and RO water are acidic. Our body fluids are alkaline .the water in our bodies is seawater for the most part. So when I looked for a mineral supplement and found one from the sea, I thought I would try it. I think it is a good product from what I have read and what my intuition tells me about our connection to the sea. Mark . . | Message 27 Subject: RE: nutrient content of duckweed From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 23:57:54 -0500 Here ya go! http://www.mobot.org/jwcross/duckweed/ Click on the 'feed source' link. There is a list of articles .one on nutritional value. Mark

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