Aquaponics Digest - Sat 08/18/01



Message   1: grass carp
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message   2: Re: grass carp
             from "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 

Message   3: Re: vortex filters / hydrocyclones
             from "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 

Message   4: Re: Pest Control: Irish Spring, "Cedar" (Juniper), & Citrus
             from pablo obiaga 

Message   5: Citrus waste
             from "Jay Myers" 

Message   6: Re: vortex filters / hydrocyclones
             from Ian Franzmann 

Message   7: Re: greenhouse question
             from "TGTX" 

Message   8: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Fri 08/17/01
             from "TGTX" 

Message   9: Re: greenhouse question
             from "Jay Myers" 

Message  10: Re: vortex filters / hydrocyclones
             from "Arlos" 

Message  11: Re: vortex filters / hydrocyclones
             from Ian Franzmann 

Message  12: RE: Aquaponics Digest - Fri 08/17/01(carp)
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  13: RE: vortex filters / hydrocyclones
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  14: RE: vortex filters / hydrocyclones
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  15: Re: green house question
             from Carolyn Hoagland 

Message  16: Texas Tale About Gar
             from "TGTX" 

Message  17: Re: Politics
             from "STEVE SPRING" 

Message  18: rotenone
             from "STEVE SPRING" 

Message  19: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Fri 08/17/01
             from DAVEINBHAM 'at' aol.com

Message  20: Re: Ever tasted gar or bowfin?
             from "PearceKlan" 

Message  21: Re: Texas Tale About Gar
             from Mick 

Message  22: Tilapia
             from "Robert Rogers" 

Message  23: Re: Politics
             from "Brent Bingham" 

.         .
| Message 1                                                           

Subject: grass carp
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 00:29:24 -0500

speaking of fish bones

I read this a while back on a university extension page.
"Grass carp have small bones in their flesh that can be removed 
by properly dressing the fish. Their flesh is firm and flaky, 
and it has a good flavor."

Anyone have any experience with cleaning/eating them?

They are eaten a lot in Asia. They grow very fast on diets than 
can be easily homegrown like duckweed.  I'm putting one in my
bluegill tank just to add something different.  It may not be
a good commercial fish for most markets in the US
.especially
if it takes more effort to dress it out
.but it seems it may have
a place in a home food production system.  Any thoughts?

Mark

.         .
| Message 2                                                           

Subject: Re: grass carp
From:    "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 07:57:41 +0200

Mark

Grass carp are herbivores and as such they will consume huge amounts of
feed.  Add to this their large potential body size and you will be needing
to shovel the feed to them.  On the bright side though, they will eat all
your unwanted fleshy plants.

Leslie

> They are eaten a lot in Asia. They grow very fast on diets than
> can be easily homegrown like duckweed.  I'm putting one in my
> bluegill tank just to add something different.  It may not be
> a good commercial fish for most markets in the US
.especially
> if it takes more effort to dress it out
.but it seems it may have
> a place in a home food production system.  Any thoughts?

.         .
| Message 3                                                           

Subject: Re: vortex filters / hydrocyclones
From:    "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 08:06:31 +0200

Hi Carolyn

This site refers to hydrocyclones which require high spinning speeds (7500 x
gravitational force!!!) and separate particles using centrifugal force via a
permanently open waste port.  The commonly used alternative is the vortex
filter which is based on a larger diameter cone and slower spinning speed,
and relies on centripetal force to collect the waste in the bottom centre
where it can be drained off by opening a tap daily.

Leslie

> Here's an interesting concept:
> http://www.psl.bc.ca/downloads/presentations/cyclone/cyclone.html
> Could something like this reduce the amount of water going to a
> settling tank?  You would only have to settle the discharge of the
> hydrocyclone?  Do fish solids weigh enough to be "spun out" or
> centrifuged?  How about suspended solids like algae, zooplankton,
> etc
 some of those suspended floating things must have a specific
> gravity pretty close to that of water?
>
> Carolyn

.         .
| Message 4                                                           

Subject: Re: Pest Control: Irish Spring, "Cedar" (Juniper), & Citrus
From:    pablo obiaga 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 04:38:25 -0300

Ted:
Where can I find info on the process of making this orange rind extract=
 "Citri-cide"

I have a cuple of guys down here trying to figure out what to do to dispose=
 several tons of orange and lemon peel a dirty industry is piling up every=
 week (stupid thing to do, but some people think doing nothing is cheaper=
 and worthier).

I had thout in a percentage of it entering pac=FA feed. But its only  a tini=
 amount, and there is still pallatability possible probs.

Now, extract sold as organic insectifuge can prove worthy and make it easier=
 to dipose dryier or the modifyied remains.

Pablo

=20

At 18:45 14/08/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Another interesting pest repellent product line is based on citrus
>rinds
.orange rind extract is pretty effective, apparently.  "Citri-cide".
>
>Tedzo
>
>

.         .
| Message 5                                                           

Subject: Citrus waste
From:    "Jay Myers" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 07:34:50 -0500

Pablo wrote
"I have a cuple of guys down here trying to figure out what to do to dispose
several tons of orange and lemon peel a dirty industry is piling up every
week (stupid thing to do, but some people think doing nothing is cheaper and
worthier)."

Pablo,
At a large orange juice plant here they first extract the peel oil (before
squeezing the orange), which sells for very high dollars. After squeezing
out the juice they run peals, seeds, and pulp through a grinder, then run it
through a waste heat drier and made into cattle feed. Very popular stuff -
their entire production is sold years in advance.

Jay

.         .
| Message 6                                                           

Subject: Re: vortex filters / hydrocyclones
From:    Ian Franzmann 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 22:35:44 +1000

Hi Carolyn & Leslie

>> Could something like this reduce the amount of water going to a
>> settling tank?  You would only have to settle the discharge of the
>> hydrocyclone?  Do fish solids weigh enough to be "spun out" or
>> centrifuged?  How about suspended solids like algae, zooplankton,
>> etc
 some of those suspended floating things must have a specific
>> gravity pretty close to that of water?

I designed & built a Vortex clarifier for my system preBiofilter and have
found it to remove sand, plastic shavings and other construction residue
some of it like a fine dust, organic materials of varying shapes and sizes.
All these particles are tapped off  via a holding tube at the bottom. The
flow rate through the device is about 200L/Minute

I have not tested it with fish residue as a fully operating Aquaponic
system, as I am still constructing the growbeds.  

Ian 

.         .
| Message 7                                                           

Subject: Re: greenhouse question
From:    "TGTX" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 07:55:58 -0500

Adriana, I used agri-lock and the poly is still up and intact after nearly 4
years.
Have not used wiggle wire, and don't have anything to say about the stress
points or puncture points it might place on the film.  They say it is easy
to install.  I believe I used a rubber mallet to install the agri-lock.
That's all for now.

Ted

>
> Message   2: greenhouse question
>              from "gutierrez-lagatta" 

.         .
| Message 8                                                           

Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Fri 08/17/01
From:    "TGTX" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 08:02:51 -0500

>
> > I was looking through a book on freshwater fish and noticed that both
> > of these can do well in "poorly oxygenated waters."  I'm looking for
> > some species native to the US to stock at low density in some small
> > ponds.

Consider the carp.  It is perhaps the most "aqua-cultured" freshwater
finfish on the planet, with Tilapia second.  Intermuscular bones are on the
down side, but on the upside, it's a tough customer and can handle lower
DO2.  Smoked carp can be a delicacy.

.         .
| Message 9                                                           

Subject: Re: greenhouse question
From:    "Jay Myers" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 08:06:20 -0500
.> Have not used wiggle wire, and don't have anything to say about the stress
> points or puncture points it might place on the film.

I was concerned about that too, but have found, after two hurricanes and two
years, that it seems to be holding OK, with no tears at all.

Jay

.         .
| Message 10                                                          

Subject: Re: vortex filters / hydrocyclones
From:    "Arlos" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 06:10:26 -0700

Ian,

  Did you design the vortex clarifier as a passive mechanism? This could be
done similar to the shape of an hour glass with a fixed spiral to disturb
the flow and cause as you mentioned, particulants like sand and solid debris
to settle out. Please post any results with regard to fish waste.

Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Franzmann 
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com 
Date: Saturday, August 18, 2001 5:56 AM
Subject: Re: vortex filters / hydrocyclones

>Hi Carolyn & Leslie
>
>>> Could something like this reduce the amount of water going to a
>>> settling tank?  You would only have to settle the discharge of the
>>> hydrocyclone?  Do fish solids weigh enough to be "spun out" or
>>> centrifuged?  How about suspended solids like algae, zooplankton,
>>> etc
 some of those suspended floating things must have a specific
>>> gravity pretty close to that of water?
>
>I designed & built a Vortex clarifier for my system preBiofilter and have
>found it to remove sand, plastic shavings and other construction residue
>some of it like a fine dust, organic materials of varying shapes and sizes.
>All these particles are tapped off  via a holding tube at the bottom. The
>flow rate through the device is about 200L/Minute
>
>I have not tested it with fish residue as a fully operating Aquaponic
>system, as I am still constructing the growbeds.
>
>Ian
>
>
>
>

.         .
| Message 11                                                          

Subject: Re: vortex filters / hydrocyclones
From:    Ian Franzmann 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:40:05 +1000

Hi Arlos

>  Did you design the vortex clarifier as a passive mechanism? 
Yes It is driven by the recirc pump inline 
I used available 250mm PVC parts and heat molded them to my overkill design.
If I had the time and money to spend on it, it would be modified to run
more efficiently.

Ian

.         .
| Message 12                                                          

Subject: RE: Aquaponics Digest - Fri 08/17/01(carp)
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 09:40:47 -0500

Consider the carp.  It is perhaps the most "aqua-cultured" freshwater
finfish on the planet, with Tilapia second.  Intermuscular bones are on the
down side, but on the upside, it's a tough customer and can handle lower
DO2.  Smoked carp can be a delicacy.

-

Thanks for the info Ted
.Everything I found on them related to human
consumption was in asia.  I think we (Americans) must associate all "carp"
with the dirty fish sifting through river bottoms, mud veins and the like.
I know they can get huge but I don't plan on letting them get that big.
I like the idea of a fast growing fish that can be fed out on my vegetative
waste, duckweed, things like that.  

Mark 
ps
.How's Wilson?
.LOL>

.         .
| Message 13                                                          

Subject: RE: vortex filters / hydrocyclones
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:17:04 -0500

Ian,

  Did you design the vortex clarifier as a passive mechanism? This could be
done similar to the shape of an hour glass with a fixed spiral to disturb
the flow and cause as you mentioned, particulants like sand and solid debris
to settle out. Please post any results with regard to fish waste.

Arlos
-----

Arlos,

your post reminded me of a site I saw on creating vortexes in general.  Have
you ever read anything about the work of Viktor Schauberger?  He was very
observant about how the vortex is seen everywhere in nature
.from galaxies
to tornadoes
.to the spiraling shape of a shell.  I have a book
that he wrote and was translated and later released in english called

"The Water Wizard
.the extraordinary properties of natural water".  His
work
on vortex energy was very interesting stuff.  Some feel that passing water
through a vortex rather than a straight pipe, energizes it. He was way ahead
of his time and often ridiculed by his peers.  He also did some work on
implosion technology and UFO type propulsion systems. I consider him the
Nikola Tesla of water. Like many scientists of his day, he was forced to do
work for the nazi's in WWII and later in life
.had his work silenced by
the powers that be.

http://www.syntropia.de/victor/menzo.htm

http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-58759/

Take it easy
mark

.         .
| Message 14                                                          

Subject: RE: vortex filters / hydrocyclones
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:09:23 -0500

here is a vortex filter a guy made for his pond.
http://www.kencofish.com/ourpond.htm

.         .
| Message 15                                                          

Subject: Re: green house question
From:    Carolyn Hoagland 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:24:03 -0500

Adriana,

I liked the wiggle wire better.  The wiggle wire channel can be
applied to surfaces that are slightly curved or out of plane with
ease.  The agri-lock stuff I used was less forgiving

Carolyn

.         .
| Message 16                                                          

Subject: Texas Tale About Gar
From:    "TGTX" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:47:07 -0500

> As far as growth, they do grow enormous.  About once a year somebody will
> catch one around here that is 5-6 feet long.  Pretty prehistoric looking
> fish if you ask me.
Some ol' boys caught some gar up the headwaters of Cedar Creek Reservoir,
using shredded nylon rope to entangle the gar teeth and haul these monsters
aboard.

Landed a big one in the boat, and fins, teeth, and tail, were floppin',
flyin' and gnashin'.

To subdue the beast, one of the fellas grabbed a hatchet and proceeded to
flail away.
The gar's scales were so thick, and so tough, like armor, that sparks flew.

It's true, I tell ya.
Ted

.         .
| Message 17                                                          

Subject: Re: Politics
From:    "STEVE SPRING" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:13:22 -0500

Leslie,

Just a quick note because this has nothing to do with aquaponics.

Do you think the US gov't cares about suffering anywhere? They, and I use
the term "they" because "they" aren't "us" only care about themselves and
enriching their own coffers. Why do we constantly go the defense of
Israel?
and as you mentioned Kuwait?? Why don't we defend Uganda??  It's
all about $$.  I won't go anymore into this.

Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 
To: "Aquaponics" 
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 2:47 AM
Subject: Politics

Hi Bruce

Yes, yes, yes.  Ever notice the complete disinterest the UN (our big brother
protecter) shows in the fact the Zimbabwe is on the brink of civil war
caused by a single mad man's ravings?  Why does the UN, the USA and other
world powers ignore the plight of the Zimbabwian people as they are being
murdered daily, crops are being destroyed for the second consequtive season,
and the country has gone into a decline that
will cost billions to exit?  Yet, when Kuwait had a problem the world was
there in no time at all with all the brass and steel to sort out big bad
Sadam.  Simple, the UN, the USA and the other major
world powers are in it for purely economic gain and Zimbabwe offers them
nothing.  Very sad indication of the depth of depravity man has fallen to.

Leslie

> > Did you ever notice that most of the recently
> > developed fossil fuel rich lands also have civil wars of their
> > governments against their populations centered over the fuel deposits
> > backed by the blameless oil companies.
> >   Sudan,Iryenjia,Angola,East Timor, etc.etc. bla bla bla.Now that is a
> > glass ceiling if I ever saw one, a bit toxic for my tastes though,
>
>

.         .
| Message 18                                                          

Subject: rotenone
From:    "STEVE SPRING" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:16:27 -0500

Thanks Adriana for the info.

Steve

.         .
| Message 19                                                          

Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Fri 08/17/01
From:    DAVEINBHAM 'at' aol.com
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:18:24 EDT

In a message dated 8/18/01 12:09:03 AM Central Daylight Time, 
aquaponics-digest-request 'at' townsqr.com writes:

<< I disagree, have you tried them  yourself, no "Y "bones no "hair" bones,
 this is personal experiance. My Father threw them back too, but had never
 eaten one, I have. Please try things for yourself >>
******************************************************************************

**
I totally concur. When grilled with a little butter and lime juice, Gar are 
delightfull.
Regards,
Dave

.         .
| Message 20                                                          

Subject: Re: Ever tasted gar or bowfin?
From:    "PearceKlan" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:08:24 -0700

I have indeed tasted Gar, Bowfin(choupique in Louisiana) and even the HUGE
carp known as Buffalo(at least in good ole south Louisiana).
These fish were(and still are) mainly used by poor persons and ethnics. Gar
is available in SOME markets and to my knowledge is generally prepared as
"gar balls" served in a prepared dish.
I did a bit of work in some of the Parish prisons in S louisiana and dined
from their kitchens on several occaisions

 the fair, fried buffalo and
choupique. I was skepticle(sp) at first, but both were very good. Of course,
both are harder to clean than the average fish.
ALSO
. and this may intrigue some of you.Choupique roe is harvested as CAVIAR
hhmmmmm

ALSO
. I've seen carved/polished jewelry made from the incredibly large,
thick scale of 6-9' gar.Pretty cool at that.
hope this helps
peace
Darren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Hoagland" 

Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 9:30 PM
Subject: Ever tasted gar or bowfin?

> I was looking through a book on freshwater fish and noticed that both
> of these can do well in "poorly oxygenated waters."  I'm looking for
> some species native to the US to stock at low density in some small
> ponds.
>
> Fish base lists them as a gamefish.
>
> Bowfin  (also called dogfish)  here is a good picture:
> http://www.bio.umass.edu/biology/conn.river/bowfin.html
> Amia clava     Family: Amiidae
> ---
> Unlike most of the other fish, Amia's swim bladder functions much like
> a lung, allowing this fish to gulp air when dissolved oxygen levels
> become dangerously low in the weed beds where it lives.  A voracious
> and opportunist feeder, it subsists on fishes including other
> sportfishes, frogs, crayfish, insects, shrimps, large amounts of
> vegetation.
>
> *large amounts of vegetation*? (Hmmmm
.)
>
>  Climate: temperate; 15 - 20C
>
>
> Gars, longnose, shortnose, spotted   family: Lepisosteidae
> http://ngp.ngpc.state.ne.us/fish/fishbook/spec040.html
> --
> Occur in sluggish pools, backwaters and oxbows of medium to large
> rivers, and lakes. Usually found near vegetation. Gar habitually lie
> motionless near the surface, looking much like a log or a stick, and
> move only to feed or to take air from the surface. A specially adapted
> pharynx and air bladder make the gar one of only a few fish able to
> "breathe" air.  A voracious predator, feeding on various fishes and
> crustaceans.
>
> Climate: temperate; 12 - 20C
>
> So, how do they taste?  (and are the fillets boneless?) As a kid, if
> we caught a gar, we always "threw them back" (into the water).  My Dad
> didn't like them, so I never tasted one

>
> Thanks,
> Carolyn
>
>

.         .
| Message 21                                                          

Subject: Re: Texas Tale About Gar
From:    Mick 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:44:34 -0500

> The gar's scales were so thick, and so tough, like armor, that sparks flew.
>
> It's true, I tell ya.>
> Ted

  -

You're gonna have them Yankees thinkin' we're seeing things again.  They never
do believe our big fish stories.  I believe a smoking Texas Gar
 yessiree.

Mick

.         .
| Message 22                                                          

Subject: Tilapia
From:    "Robert Rogers" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 16:12:41 -0400

I am looking for someplace to obtain a few Tilapia fingerlings. I am located
in Kentucky at the present time.
If anyone could help me find a source where I could purchase a small number
I would appreciate it.
             Thanks, Bob
ps. I am setting up a 200 gal. experimental system,

.         .
| Message 23                                                          

Subject: Re: Politics
From:    "Brent Bingham" 
Date:    Sat, 18 Aug 2001 16:50:51 -0700

If you had all  the money and power to do anything you wished over there
what would be the first 3 things you would do.  I believe the US puts its
money where its hart should be but it does send money. Would you send your
sons and daughters? The group we work with was given allot of money to "fix"
things over there. Several of the volunteers were killed. The seed was
stolen and sold by the solders to  the starving. The seed was treated for
soil pathogens and I believe harmed a lot of people. The sacks
said USA so we got credit for poising people. Every time a crop was almost
ready to harvest one or another warlord bunch of solders came in and
destroyed it. Food is power and they do not want any want any one to have
the power. In places like Kuwait and Israel we can do something and have
because they are not like Vet Nam. To "fix" something you need to identify
what is wrong. It is simplistic to say "feed the hungry,cloth the naked, and
treat the sick". They kill the Doctors, steal the food and burn the clothes.
They did  not do that in Kuwait!

I have a group of volunteers that have water well drilling rigs and farm
irrigation setups and complete small farm building plans but they get shot
when they try to go in and help. They have greenhouse / living units. Solar
drinking water pumps and all sorts of things to relive the suffering but
they can not get it to the people most in need. We cannot send an army with
guns to guard every nomadic group wandering looking for food can we ?
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE SPRING" 

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: Politics

> Leslie,
>
> Just a quick note because this has nothing to do with aquaponics.
>
> Do you think the US gov't cares about suffering anywhere? They, and I use
> the term "they" because "they" aren't "us" only care about themselves and
> enriching their own coffers. Why do we constantly go the defense of
> Israel?
and as you mentioned Kuwait?? Why don't we defend Uganda??  It's
> all about $$.  I won't go anymore into this.
>
> Steve
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 
> To: "Aquaponics" 
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 2:47 AM
> Subject: Politics
>
>
> Hi Bruce
>
> Yes, yes, yes.  Ever notice the complete disinterest the UN (our big
brother
> protecter) shows in the fact the Zimbabwe is on the brink of civil war
> caused by a single mad man's ravings?  Why does the UN, the USA and other
> world powers ignore the plight of the Zimbabwian people as they are being
> murdered daily, crops are being destroyed for the second consequtive
season,
> and the country has gone into a decline that
> will cost billions to exit?  Yet, when Kuwait had a problem the world was
> there in no time at all with all the brass and steel to sort out big bad
> Sadam.  Simple, the UN, the USA and the other major
> world powers are in it for purely economic gain and Zimbabwe offers them
> nothing.  Very sad indication of the depth of depravity man has fallen to.
>
> Leslie
>
> > > Did you ever notice that most of the recently
> > > developed fossil fuel rich lands also have civil wars of their
> > > governments against their populations centered over the fuel deposits
> > > backed by the blameless oil companies.
> > >   Sudan,Iryenjia,Angola,East Timor, etc.etc. bla bla bla.Now that is a
> > > glass ceiling if I ever saw one, a bit toxic for my tastes though,
> >
> >
>
>
>


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