Aquaponics Digest - Mon 08/20/01
Message 1: Subject: Fwd. Aquaponics question (Non-profit)
from marc
Message 2: Re: Market Trend
from "Attie Esterhuyse"
Message 3: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Sat 08/18/01
from "gerry magnuson"
Message 4: Re: failing on tomatos
from "gerry magnuson"
Message 5: posts
from "Dorothy Mann"
Message 6: Re: failing on tomatos
from pantryman 'at' empireone.net
Message 7: Re: failing on tomatos
from pantryman 'at' empireone.net
Message 8: Re: failing on tomatos
from "Marcia Wilson"
Message 9: Re: failing on tomatoes
from (Bruce Schreiber)
Message 10: Re: water chemistry. from "Marc Laberge"
Message 11: Tech help please
from Mick
Message 12: Re: Tech help please
from "KenHale"
Message 13: Re: Tech help please
from pantryman 'at' empireone.net
Message 14: intro setup
from "Pete and Diana Scholtens"
Message 15: Re: intro setup
from dreadlox
Message 16: Re: Real military aid
from "Brent Bingham"
Message 17: Re: Military
from "Brent Bingham"
Message 18: Re: Real military aid
from "Brent Bingham"
Message 19: Re: Fwd. Aquaponics question (Non-profit)
from "Brent Bingham"
Message 20: Re: intro setup
from "gutierrez-lagatta"
Message 21: Re: intro setup
from Chris Barown
Message 22: Re: intro setup
from Mick
Message 23: failing tomatos
from "Steven Medlock"
Message 24: Re: Tech help please
from "Marc Laberge"
Message 25: Re: failing tomatos
from "gutierrez-lagatta"
Message 26: Re: Real military aid
from pantryman 'at' empireone.net
Message 27: Re: Politics
from "Brent Bingham"
Message 28: Alternative Energy (was Re: Real military aid)
from Lynn Wigglesworth
Message 29: They got an awful lot of coffee in Brazil
from "TGTX"
Message 30: Re: Alternative Energy (was Re: Real military aid)
from pantryman 'at' empireone.net
Message 31: Re: failing on tomatos
from "gerry magnuson"
Message 32: Re: failing on tomatos
from pantryman 'at' empireone.net
Message 33: Re: Alternative Energy (was Re: Real military aid)
from "Arlos"
Message 34: Re: Tilapia
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 35: Re: Alternative Energy (was Re: Real military aid)
from pantryman 'at' empireone.net
Message 36: Re: Tech help please
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 37: Re: Tech help please
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 38: Re: Tech help please
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 39: Re: Politics
from "STEVE SPRING"
. .
| Message 1
Subject: Subject: Fwd. Aquaponics question (Non-profit)
From: marc
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 00:27:10 -0600
The outdoor pond is a VERY uncontrolled environment. Leaves
in the fall. Animals year round. Birds, frogs, snakes,
animals, people (Will there be fences?) pooping, wading and
lots of uncontrolled inputs. Kids throw their tricycles in
and then each other. Attractive nuisance - codes.
How big and deep is the pond? The minimum depth for our pond
is 31 inches for fish to survive (overwinter) without water
heating (calculated from Colorado State U. formula.) but
fish growth and activity is extremly slowed down. Heater
planned to keep a hole in the ice and oxygenation equipment?
Will there be ice? Temperate winter situation?
Water will unlikely be crystal clear like our indoor heated
tanks so fish management will be more difficult due to
visibility & clouding. If a big pond how will the population
be managed to prevent overpopulation and stunted fish?
Runoff from rain into cisterns? Will fertilizer be part of
the runoff or is it roof collection?
If roofs then are the roof materials acceptable as as water
contact surfaces. Rainwater is low pH so leaching is
possibility and metals will be challenged. Do fittings have
brass fittings? If so are they silicon or regular brass?
Water chemistry will be variable unless rainfall is
consistent. Is there a backup source of water in case of
drought? What is the estimated water usage in the hottest
part of the summer. What does the mineral content of the
make up water look like. Will pH swings need to be
moderated?
What materials are the cisterns made of?? Compatible with
foodstuffs?
Water temperature will be variable. Northern California.
Cold weather fish. Comets, goldfish, perch, bluegill,
catfish, carp. Can alien (whooooeee three eyes and have
lasers!) fish get introduced somehow? What will the summer
water temps be like?? To warm for trout??
Variable pond denitrification/vegetation that the biofilter
will have to make up for. Fall slow down and winter die off.
Significant change late August to mid Sept. Will fish
growing and harvesting follow natural seasonal support or
additional energy inputs be made to compensate?
Pond suction filter design? Must be able to handle lots of
crud from outdoor existence with excess capacity so cleaning
not required twenty times a day in the fall. Should be easy
to clean.
Marc Nameth
>Subject: Aquaponics question (Non-profit)
>
>Hello Speraneos,
>I am a Co-director of the Campus Center for Appropriate Technology(CCAT), a
>501 c3 live-in demostration home for appropriate technologies in Arcata, CA.
>We are currently developing a small scale aquaponic system strictly for
>education/demostration purposes. We have a greenhouse where the bio-filters
>could be placed, however our fish tank is planned to be an outdoor open pond
>fed by rainwater from cisterns. Can you recommend any references that have
>explored aquaponics with fish other than tilapia in an outdoor pond. CCAT
>would greatly appreciate your advice and expertise.
>
>Thank you for your time,
>Tyler R. Brandenburg
>CCAT Co-director
>(707)826-3551
>trb20 'at' humboldt.edu
. .
| Message 2
Subject: Re: Market Trend
From: "Attie Esterhuyse"
Date: 20 Aug 2001 10:22:17 +0200
Mick
This is an excellent idea.
Attie
> Might be a good idea to harvest and help "heritage" some seeds of
> strains that we know work well in this system. For one thing, it's
> another marketing tool, and you can advertise your produce as coming
> from unaltered stock. For another thing, it helps keep the strain
> untainted with altered cross-breeds.
. .
| Message 3
Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Sat 08/18/01
From: "gerry magnuson"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 00:34:52 -1000
arlos, the two districts that make 'kona', have a large tourist
influx
.many types of bananas in hawaii, apple being the tastiest, I had
pakay(chinese) bananas in my front yard for making pesteles(puerto rican),
like a tamale
.bluefield and one other were the commercial types
.kona had
some disease, so they destroyed all trees in a given area, I don't believe
any commercial grower was in that area
.I laughed at the coffee council in
the states suggesting to plant trees for shade and to help the birds,
etc
.and I asked what exactly was a coffee 'tree'? I planted 4500 cypress
trees for windbreaks around my trees
.my gross at maturity, my sub-species
(12), average 30-50 pounds of cherry per tree, 3-5 times more per acre than
kona growers
.most growers only have 3.2 acres of coffee
.it is just a
novelty item, not for competition rather to promote hawaii
.only reason why
coffee was still at kona was they could not raise sugar cane on the
rocks
.my plantation is in a valley beginning at the 2100' elevation,
gourmet, not just a name and lack of quality as the kona growers do
.like
promoting 'organic' coffee, means a lazy person that doesn't weed nor
fertilize, nor prune, yet uses county water for the processing
.the radical
difference about hawaii, out of 25 climates/conditions, it has
21
.california only has 16
.ones neighbor can be a quarter mile away,
geting flooded, and one is having a drought
or the temperature is different
by 10 degrees, elevation is critical
.I got my water from lava tubes,
artesian type
.cowboy
>From: "Arlos"
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>
>Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Sat 08/18/01
>Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:00:17 -0700
>
>Gerry,
>
> You happen to raise cacao trees when you were growing coffee? Do any
>companion planting, raising bananas? Whats with the quarantine on Hawaiian
>bananas? Was coffee that profitable to raise on the Kona coast? Seemed
>every
>backyard had coffee trees in them. Sheesh, a lot of questions, eh?
>
>Arlos
>-----Original Message-----
>From: gerry magnuson
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>Date: Sunday, August 19, 2001 4:37 PM
>Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Sat 08/18/01
>
>
> >aloha, tgtx
.being a gourmet coffee grower in hawaii
brazil is the
>world's
> >largest coffee producer, their coffee being known as 'rio', verses other
> >'arabica' coffees as 'mild'
.viet nam is not number 2, and they
>primarily
> >raise 'robusta', fact is, china sends vn their coffee to be
> >marketed
.coffee is the second most traded commodity in the world, next
>to
> >oil, africa, kenya AA does its fair share, as does other african
>countries,
> >when a chlorine extraction is made to make decaf, for the soda industry,
>it
> >is evaporated at 200 F, as you brew the coffee, the swiss water method is
> >just another way
.if you drink high elevation gourmet coffee, you won't
>get
> >the shakes nor the high caffiene content
.cowboy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "TGTX"
> >>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >>
> >>Subject: Re: Aquaponics Digest - Sat 08/18/01
> >>Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 10:09:20 -0500
> >>
> >> > Subject: Re: Pest Control: Irish Spring, "Cedar" (Juniper), & Citrus
> >> > From: pablo obiaga
> >> > Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 04:38:25 -0300
> >> >
> >> > Ted:
> >> > Where can I find info on the process of making this orange rind
>extract=
> >> > "Citri-cide"
> >> >
> >> > I have a cuple of guys down here trying to figure out what to do to
> >>dispose=
> >> > several tons of orange and lemon peel a dirty industry is piling up
> >>every=
> >> > week (stupid thing to do, but some people think doing nothing is
> >>cheaper=
> >> > and worthier).
> >> >
> >> > I had thout in a percentage of it entering pac=FA feed. But its only
>a
> >>tini=
> >> > amount, and there is still pallatability possible probs.
> >> >
> >> > Now, extract sold as organic insectifuge can prove worthy and make it
> >>easier=
> >> > to dipose dryier or the modifyied remains.
> >> >
> >> > Pablo
> >> >
> >> > Pablo,
> >> > At a large orange juice plant here they first extract the peel oil
> >>(before
> >> > squeezing the orange), which sells for very high dollars. After
> >>squeezing
> >> > out the juice they run peals, seeds, and pulp through a grinder, then
> >>run
> >>it
> >> > through a waste heat drier and made into cattle feed. Very popular
>stuff
> >>-
> >> > their entire production is sold years in advance.
> >> >
> >> > Jay
> >>
> >>Pablo, I believe the active ingredients (pest repellent compounds in
>citrus
> >>rind) may be soluble in alcohol, so it might be "fruitful" to consult
>with
> >>a
> >>chemist that specializes in natural product chemistry. I believe you
>live
> >>in Brazil, where I understand there is much ethanol production from
>sugar
> >>cane, or once was. So, perhaps an ethanol extract of the rind might
>prove
> >>effective as an extraction process. Supercritical fluid extraction with
> >>very high pressure carbon dioxide is also a possibility (this is used to
> >>de-caffeinate coffee), but it has been years since I have done such
>things
> >>in the laboratory, and I know that the equipment is expensive.
> >>
> >>Speaking of coffee, I know that they grow an "awful lot of coffee in
> >>Brazil". But, I would recommend that anyone who cares about freedom,
> >>justice, and politics consider the fact that ?Vietnam is Number 2 in the
> >>world in coffee exports. In other words, Brazilian coffee is much more
> >>appealing to me now that ever before. However, I mostly drink Ruta Maya
> >>coffee from the Yuccatan, or maybe Community Coffee
>from
hmm
guess
> >>I
> >>better check on the country of origin on my Community Coffee, eh?
> >>
> >>Hope this helps.
> >>
> >>Ted
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>
. .
| Message 4
Subject: Re: failing on tomatos
From: "gerry magnuson"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 00:43:39 -1000
had the same problem in hawaii with bell peppers, was growing a number of
acres, getting 45,000 pounds per acre, found my golden egg, then, as you are
experiencing, my flowers/blossoms were falling off, tried liquid calcium,
nothing
.sent a leaf sample to UCD, never use hawaiian schools for tests,
they did a quincy on the leaves, lead and copper with the sulphuric acid
from madam pele(volcano), changed to broccoli and cabbage and string
beans
.if your tomato plants are not showing any activity on the outer
leafs, it is not a root problem
.cowboy
>From: "Steven Medlock"
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>
>Subject: failing on tomatos
>Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 19:44:45 -0500
>
>I have got fantastic looking plants, and am still loosing 80 persent of my
>blooms. The humidity is no worse than it is outside. The bees have done
>nothing. I have went to hand pollinating and am still having no luck.
>Should I go with a Plant that is made for a greenhouse. Otherwise I have
>to
>come up with another idea.
>Thanks,
>Red
>
. .
| Message 5
Subject: posts
From: "Dorothy Mann"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:25:38 -0500
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
=_NextPart_000_007B_01C12949.4F4296C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Paula
=_NextPart_000_007B_01C12949.4F4296C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Paula
=_NextPart_000_007B_01C12949.4F4296C0--
. .
| Message 6
Subject: Re: failing on tomatos
From: pantryman 'at' empireone.net
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:52:35 -0500
Cowboy.The flower drop on your peppers was most likely due to a magnesium deficiency during fruit-set.
This could be corrected by using a solution of 1 tablespoon of epsom salts per gallon of water
and
applying as a foliar feed during flowering through fruit maturity. This is a very common cause
of
spontaneous flower abort in peppers.
Bob
"gerry magnuson" wrote:
>
> had the same problem in hawaii with bell peppers, was growing a number of
> acres, getting 45,000 pounds per acre, found my golden egg, then, as you are
> experiencing, my flowers/blossoms were falling off, tried liquid calcium,
> nothing
.sent a leaf sample to UCD, never use hawaiian schools for tests,
> they did a quincy on the leaves, lead and copper with the sulphuric acid
> from madam pele(volcano), changed to broccoli and cabbage and string
> beans
.if your tomato plants are not showing any activity on the outer
> leafs, it is not a root problem
.cowboy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Steven Medlock"
> >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >
> >Subject: failing on tomatos
> >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 19:44:45 -0500
> >
> >I have got fantastic looking plants, and am still loosing 80 persent of my
> >blooms. The humidity is no worse than it is outside. The bees have done
> >nothing. I have went to hand pollinating and am still having no luck.
> >Should I go with a Plant that is made for a greenhouse. Otherwise I have
> >to
> >come up with another idea.
> >Thanks,
> >Red
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
. .
| Message 7
Subject: Re: failing on tomatos
From: pantryman 'at' empireone.net
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:04:25 -0500
Red
I took a second look at your post and you said the bees were doing nothing. Are you using
honeybees?
If so, they are loathe to work tomatoes apparently due to the aroma of the plant. You need
bumblebees
to provide pollenation. If the flowers are not pollenated they will abort.
Also, what are the daytime temps in your greenhouse? Tomatoes will abort flowers with temps
above 100
degrees during the day and below 55 at night.
Bob
"Steven Medlock" wrote:
>
> I have got fantastic looking plants, and am still loosing 80 persent of my
> blooms. The humidity is no worse than it is outside. The bees have done
> nothing. I have went to hand pollinating and am still having no luck.
> Should I go with a Plant that is made for a greenhouse. Otherwise I have to
> come up with another idea.
> Thanks,
> Red
>
>
. .
| Message 8
Subject: Re: failing on tomatos
From: "Marcia Wilson"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:01:51 -0700
Steven, I had a lot of trouble with my tomatoes dropping their flowers
because of the over 100 degree heat. Its seems to really take a toll on
them. They are just now starting to recover from this. I did use the epsom
salts foliar spray on mine.
I tried bees too, and went back to hand pollinating, as I achieved poor
results with bees.
Hope this helps,
Marcia
----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Medlock
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 5:44 PM
Subject: failing on tomatos
> I have got fantastic looking plants, and am still loosing 80 persent of my
> blooms. The humidity is no worse than it is outside. The bees have done
> nothing. I have went to hand pollinating and am still having no luck.
> Should I go with a Plant that is made for a greenhouse. Otherwise I have
to
> come up with another idea.
> Thanks,
> Red
>
>
. .
| Message 9
Subject: Re: failing on tomatoes
From: (Bruce Schreiber)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:20:06 -0500 (CDT)
Tomatoes will not set fruit if temps are to high the flowers just fall
off. being in the tropics over heating is likely the problem
Bruce
. .
| Message 10
Subject: Re: water chemistry.From: "Marc Laberge"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:06:13 -0400
Interesting , I don't know but quite possible I would guess.
Will have to do more tests.
Thanks Bruce
Marc could iron fixing bacteria be converting things in your system as a
food source into iron like the bog iron used by the Vikings gotten in
peat bogs to make tools.? Their iron was not mined mineral but was
collected from under peat in the form of stones of bacterial origins and
they then smelted metal from it.
Bruce
. .
| Message 11
Subject: Tech help please
From: Mick
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:15:23 -0500
I read everything posted in here. You tech folks are scarey
. talkin'
about things that make my eyes cross. I'm a musician and only have
about four brain cells devoted to left brain type stuff. I wish I had
your type of expertise but I probably never will.
This is as far as I've gotten on the tech side:
I learned how to test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and oxygen levels.
My system has good readings in these areas.
Should I be concerned about things like PH levels? I have a closed
system with continuous circulation from the fish tank to the plant
tray. My well water is from an aquifer and is very alkaline.
My fish are healthy and my plants are growing. Don't mess with success?
Or learn about PH testing? Is there a natural way to correct alkaline
water?
Thanks,
Mick
. .
| Message 12
Subject: Re: Tech help please
From: "KenHale"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:09:05 -0500
if possible keep it between 6.0 and 8.5 Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mick"
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 12:15 PM
Subject: Tech help please
> I read everything posted in here. You tech folks are scarey
. talkin'
> about things that make my eyes cross. I'm a musician and only have
> about four brain cells devoted to left brain type stuff. I wish I had
> your type of expertise but I probably never will.
>
> This is as far as I've gotten on the tech side:
> I learned how to test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and oxygen levels.
> My system has good readings in these areas.
>
> Should I be concerned about things like PH levels? I have a closed
> system with continuous circulation from the fish tank to the plant
> tray. My well water is from an aquifer and is very alkaline.
>
> My fish are healthy and my plants are growing. Don't mess with success?
> Or learn about PH testing? Is there a natural way to correct alkaline
> water?
>
> Thanks,
> Mick
>
>
. .
| Message 13
Subject: Re: Tech help please
From: pantryman 'at' empireone.net
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:24:40 -0500
Mick
If it ain't broke, don't fix it
Bob
Mick wrote:
>
> I read everything posted in here. You tech folks are scarey
. talkin'
> about things that make my eyes cross. I'm a musician and only have
> about four brain cells devoted to left brain type stuff. I wish I had
> your type of expertise but I probably never will.
>
> This is as far as I've gotten on the tech side:
> I learned how to test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and oxygen levels.
> My system has good readings in these areas.
>
> Should I be concerned about things like PH levels? I have a closed
> system with continuous circulation from the fish tank to the plant
> tray. My well water is from an aquifer and is very alkaline.
>
> My fish are healthy and my plants are growing. Don't mess with success?
> Or learn about PH testing? Is there a natural way to correct alkaline
> water?
>
> Thanks,
> Mick
>
>
. .
| Message 14
Subject: intro setup
From: "Pete and Diana Scholtens"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:51:53 -0700
Hi all,
School starts soon - the day after Labour Day. I thought I'd start by
looking at the local Polytank dealer for prices. When he came in at almost
CAN$500 for a 180 gallon semisquare tank with stand, I started think I'm
better off with using aquariums for starters. I've been thinking of an
cheaper home made startup set for my biology classes. There have been
different references on the list to maximum or minumum size, fish, plants,
etc.
Questions:
1. I was thinking of one 50 - 75 gallon tank with cool water fish, so we
don't need heaters. Should I go with one big tank or several smaller ones
(30 gallon)? 20 - 30 gallon tanks are a dime a dozen on the used market.
2. Any suggestions on fish types and suppliers for western Canada?
3. Any thoughts on lighting?
I'd be working indoors with minimal natural light. Home Depot has a 500 watt
halogen work light. Two of them are cheaper than the local hydroponics
store's 1000 watt lamp. What's up with that?
4. Why are there so many hydroponics stores in BC? (Don't answer; I know ;-)
5. What are the best plants to start up with? Do I start with plugs or
seeds?
6. What are the best substrates to start up with?
7. Do I start up a typical aquarium with gravel, plants, etc. and use the
plants outside as a filter?
8. Do I need another filter (Aquaclear, etc.) for backup?
9. What is the best pump to use to get the water up to the plants? Brand
name and size recommendations would be good.
10.Cycling; always on or flood? What are the cycling times?
Any thoughts on how to start up a system cheap with salvaged items
(bathtubs, you name it) would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Pete Scholtens
. .
| Message 15
Subject: Re: intro setup
From: dreadlox
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:27:50 -0700
Pete, whereabouts in Canada are you?
><{{{*> Mike Barnett <*}}}><
JAMAICA, West Indies
Pete and Diana Scholtens wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> School starts soon - the day after Labour Day. I thought I'd start by
> looking at the local Polytank dealer for prices.
>
> Any thoughts on how to start up a system cheap with salvaged items
> (bathtubs, you name it) would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
> Pete Scholtens
--
. .
| Message 16
Subject: Re: Real military aid
From: "Brent Bingham"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:30:40 -0700
You must have forgotten, we tried it jest a few years ago. The US solders
were killed and drug around the streets by the people they were trying to
feed. Both sides were shooting at them. The stolen food was used to buy guns
to use on the US solders. The locals would not turn over the leaders.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 11:44 AM
Subject: Real military aid
> In a message dated 8/19/01 12:09:17 AM Central Daylight Time,
> aquaponics-digest-request 'at' townsqr.com writes:
>
> << We cannot send an army with
> guns to guard every nomadic group wandering looking for food can we ?
> Brent >>
>
****************************************************************************
**
>
> ********
> Brent,
> Why cant we do that ? Because the president is more interested in a tax
cut
> for the wealthy and in building a " missile shield" ( which will likely
not
> work) because wealthy Republicans get wealthier on the defense contracts.
> We are already spending nearly half the money spent on military in the
whole
> damn world. Trouble is where we spend it. It will take a whole lot of
> citizens telling government what we really want the military to do to
change
> things.
> Regards,
> Dave
>
. .
| Message 17
Subject: Re: Military
From: "Brent Bingham"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:05:19 -0700
Yes, Thank you.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Medlock"
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 5:40 PM
Subject: Military
> I can't stay out of this one. I spent my time in many different countries,
> and in Desert Storm and Shield. The bottom line is it is time that the
rest
> of the so called free world take care of there own backyard problems.
They
> do a fine job telling us how stupid we are, but don't mind killing our
> people, and letting us cough up the bill.
> Red
>
>
. .
| Message 18
Subject: Re: Real military aid
From: "Brent Bingham"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:03:49 -0700
Jerry,
I must agree. We cannot fix the world! We can try to keep it going and that
takes oil. With out oil there would be no food in the big cities in just a
matter of days. With out oil most food production would stop in weeks. With
out oil the stored frozen food would be gone in months or less after the
power is gone. We store a years worth of ; food , fuel, water, and what
ever we can, just in case. If we were lucky we could feed relatives and
neighbors for a few months, if the oil was cut off. What would the people
in towns do?
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "gerry magnuson"
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: Real military aid
> gee dave, join the dnc with their bs hype, are you a socialist, or worse?
do
> you like big brother watching for your needs, common sense tells you to
put
> a seat belt on, but there is a law, bye-bye another freedom
.duh
.stick
to
> aquaponics, you will lose in any political debate
.without free
enterprise,
> socialism cannot exist
.try going and living in various countries, then
get
> back to me
.impress me by providing for your own needs and others, and
> showing a profit, and expanding to feed 100,000 people your way, then you
> will prove yourself
.bet you think peace corps works, want to go to
fresno,
> ca and see the walking dead from peace corps? no cure
.oops, not suppose
to
> tell
cowboy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: DAVEINBHAM 'at' aol.com
> >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >Subject: Real military aid
> >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 14:44:17 EDT
> >
> >In a message dated 8/19/01 12:09:17 AM Central Daylight Time,
> >aquaponics-digest-request 'at' townsqr.com writes:
> >
> ><< We cannot send an army with
> > guns to guard every nomadic group wandering looking for food can we ?
> > Brent >>
>
>***************************************************************************
***
> >
> >********
> >Brent,
> >Why cant we do that ? Because the president is more interested in a tax
cut
> >for the wealthy and in building a " missile shield" ( which will likely
not
> >work) because wealthy Republicans get wealthier on the defense contracts.
> >We are already spending nearly half the money spent on military in the
> >whole
> >damn world. Trouble is where we spend it. It will take a whole lot of
> >citizens telling government what we really want the military to do to
> >change
> >things.
> >Regards,
> >Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
. .
| Message 19
Subject: Re: Fwd. Aquaponics question (Non-profit)
From: "Brent Bingham"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:09:41 -0700
Catfish!
----- Original Message -----
From: "S & S Aqua Farm"
Cc: "Tyler R. Brandenburg"
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 7:04 PM
Subject: Fwd. Aquaponics question (Non-profit)
> Any response to this inquiry? I have promised to forward any information
> sent to the group, but have also suggested that Tyler join the group in
> order to have best access to our pool of information.
>
> Paula
> --
>
> >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:28:39 -0700
> >From: trb20
> >To:
> >Subject: Aquaponics question (Non-profit)
> >
> >Hello Speraneos,
> >I am a Co-director of the Campus Center for Appropriate Technology(CCAT),
a
> >501 c3 live-in demostration home for appropriate technologies in Arcata,
CA.
> >We are currently developing a small scale aquaponic system strictly for
> >education/demostration purposes. We have a greenhouse where the
bio-filters
> >could be placed, however our fish tank is planned to be an outdoor open
pond
> >fed by rainwater from cisterns. Can you recommend any references that
have
> >explored aquaponics with fish other than tilapia in an outdoor pond. CCAT
> >would greatly appreciate your advice and expertise.
> >
> >Thank you for your time,
> >Tyler R. Brandenburg
> >CCAT Co-director
> >(707)826-3551
> >trb20 'at' humboldt.edu
>
>
>
. .
| Message 20
Subject: Re: intro setup
From: "gutierrez-lagatta"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:38:38 -0500
Hi Pete,
I hadn't thought of these for aquariums but Sam's Club has some nice
rectangular 55 gallon containers - the price recently dropped to
around $13 from around $17. They are about 20-24 inches deep, making
it easy to reach the bottom without going swimming. It's possible
that these are going to be phased out so if you're interested I
suggest you move quickly. (For those of you who are doing hydro,
these are nice concentrate tanks, easier to work with than 55 gallon
drums).
> looking at the local Polytank dealer for prices. When he came in at
almost
> CAN$500 for a 180 gallon semisquare tank with stand, I started think
I'm
> better off with using aquariums for starters. I've been thinking of
an
> cheaper home made startup set for my biology classes. There have
been
> different references on the list to maximum or minumum size, fish,
plants,
> etc.
For small set-ups I really like the Maxi Jet pumps from Aquatic
Ecosystems www.aquaticeco.com. They are inexpensive and very
trouble-free. Talk to the sales guys there and they should be able to
help you with sizing, they range from the PU15 at 105gph and a pumping
height of 29" to the PU21 with a flow rate of 528gph and a height of
60". They can be used either submerged or external.
> 9. What is the best pump to use to get the water up to the plants?
Brand
> name and size recommendations would be good.
Good luck and welcome to the club - your 12 step package is in the
mail
.:>)
Adriana
. .
| Message 21
Subject: Re: intro setup
From: Chris Barown
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:46:28 -0400
>3. Any thoughts on lighting?
>I'd be working indoors with minimal natural light. Home Depot has a 500 watt
>halogen work light. Two of them are cheaper than the local hydroponics
>store's 1000 watt lamp. What's up with that?
The halogen lights are not going to provide the
spectrum of light that you will need to grow plants.
You should look at Metal Halide or High Pressure Sodium
(depending on what you are growing). MH is good for
vegetative growth (lettuces, etc) and MH is better
for the flowering stage of a plants life.
You could also look at florescent lighting. I believe
you can get the lighting you need with these, but i
don't know much about them.
Hope this helps,
Chris
. .
| Message 22
Subject: Re: intro setup
From: Mick
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:11:23 -0500
Chris Barown wrote:
> >3. Any thoughts on lighting?
> >I'd be working indoors with minimal natural light. Home Depot has a 500 watt
> >halogen work light. Two of them are cheaper than the local hydroponics
> >store's 1000 watt lamp. What's up with that?
>
> The halogen lights are not going to provide the
> spectrum of light that you will need to grow plants.
> You should look at Metal Halide or High Pressure Sodium
> (depending on what you are growing). MH is good for
> vegetative growth (lettuces, etc) and MH is better
> for the flowering stage of a plants life.
>
> You could also look at florescent lighting. I believe
> you can get the lighting you need with these, but i
> don't know much about them.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Chris
-----
We started with grow lamps. We had minimal success until I replaced the tin on
the roof of the barn with greenhouse material.
I may have had the lamps at an improper distance. Dunno. Natural sunlight sure
made everything perk up. I may be imagining it, but the fish seem to grow faster
in a little sunlight, and the plants definitely did.
If there is even one window available, I'd set the system up as close to that
light source as possible. I've seen reflector panels that will send the light
where you want it from there.
Just my vote for sunshine
Mick
. .
| Message 23
Subject: failing tomatos
From: "Steven Medlock"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:49:58 -0500
It sure helps to here the support. The temps were quit high for a while,
the last week has been in the 80s. only the lower leaves sow any yellow,
the main plant is lush and green. I am using bumble bees, but I think it
was way to hot for them to help me. Now they are winding down. I would like
to know more about getting the leaves tested just to be safe. Another thing
is what does the epsom salts foliar spray do and how do I go about doing it?
I'm hoping that the cooler weather will help things out, otherwise I have a
problem.
Thanks for the encouragement,
Red
. .
| Message 24
Subject: Re: Tech help please
From: "Marc Laberge"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:48:40 -0400
Hi Mick,
I don't know how big your system is but
.you should learn about pH, a
sudden change in this can be the difference between healthy or dead fish,
between healthy and unhealthy plants. Although in the short term , pH may
remain stable ( depending on your system; with or without solid removal ) it
will fluctuate to a certain degree. If you don't have any buffer material in
your system like limestone gravel or a sufficient alkalinity levels, you may
be in for a surprise in the future. Do you flush any water ? If you don't,
think of your alkalinity as a buffer reserve which is being slowly eaten
away by the carbon dioxide produced by the fish which turns the water
acidic. The bacteria in your biofilter also are using the alkalinity
reserve, which again , is slowly being eaten away. Eventually the reserve
disappears and the water pH drops down causing your ammonia to become toxic
and your nitrifying bacteria to be so stressed that they do not function
properly causing your nitrite to peak and become toxic to your fish.
best be prepared
Marc Laberge
Québec, Canada
. .
| Message 25
Subject: Re: failing tomatos
From: "gutierrez-lagatta"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:34:18 -0500
Call Scott's Testing Laboratory 1-800743-4769 and they will give you
instructions on how to prepare a sample and will send you a mailing
kit.
> I would like to know more about getting the leaves tested just to be
safe.
Adriana
. .
| Message 26
Subject: Re: Real military aid
From: pantryman 'at' empireone.net
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:41:57 -0500
Brent
.I disagree with you
here is why.Keeping the world going does not take oil
.it takes creativity and a willingness to run a
risk.The world's supply of oil is finite
.it WILL run out some day. What then???
We are working with 2 alternatives to the use of oil
.alcohol fuel and synthesis gas.
In upstate New York, growing anything in the winter requires ancillary light and heat. We will
be demonstrating an aquaponics system which will accomodate both of these fuels to supply
electricity and heat. Why would we do this?? Because using both of these fuels does not
contribute additional carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. It only returns carbon dioxide into
the system which was sequestered there by plants
.as such they are carbon cycle neutral.
The alcohol fuel is derived from bakery waste (available by the TON here) and the by-products
from production (CO2 & DDGS) are used within the system - notably the DDGS for fish feed.
Synthesis fuel is derived from poplar trees or willow through a process called gasification.
Both of these fuels can be used by burning them in a microturbine right in the greenhouse -
the by-products of combustion are CO2, water and heat.
There are many things that CAN be done
.but sitting by and waiting for the government to do
it, is not one of them.
If we really want to deal with this problem, we can. Viable alternatives DO exist
. for
heaven's sake
lets use them.
Our help will only come from ourselves.Bob
"Brent Bingham" wrote:
>
> Jerry,
> I must agree. We cannot fix the world! We can try to keep it going and that
> takes oil. With out oil there would be no food in the big cities in just a
> matter of days. With out oil most food production would stop in weeks. With
> out oil the stored frozen food would be gone in months or less after the
> power is gone. We store a years worth of ; food , fuel, water, and what
> ever we can, just in case. If we were lucky we could feed relatives and
> neighbors for a few months, if the oil was cut off. What would the people
> in towns do?
> Brent
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gerry magnuson"
>
> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 4:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Real military aid
>
>
> > gee dave, join the dnc with their bs hype, are you a socialist, or worse?
> do
> > you like big brother watching for your needs, common sense tells you to
> put
> > a seat belt on, but there is a law, bye-bye another freedom
.duh
.stick
> to
> > aquaponics, you will lose in any political debate
.without free
> enterprise,
> > socialism cannot exist
.try going and living in various countries, then
> get
> > back to me
.impress me by providing for your own needs and others, and
> > showing a profit, and expanding to feed 100,000 people your way, then you
> > will prove yourself
.bet you think peace corps works, want to go to
> fresno,
> > ca and see the walking dead from peace corps? no cure
.oops, not suppose
> to
> > tell
cowboy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: DAVEINBHAM 'at' aol.com
> > >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> > >To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> > >Subject: Real military aid
> > >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 14:44:17 EDT
> > >
> > >In a message dated 8/19/01 12:09:17 AM Central Daylight Time,
> > >aquaponics-digest-request 'at' townsqr.com writes:
> > >
> > ><< We cannot send an army with
> > > guns to guard every nomadic group wandering looking for food can we ?
> > > Brent >>
> >
> >***************************************************************************
> ***
> > >
> > >********
> > >Brent,
> > >Why cant we do that ? Because the president is more interested in a tax
> cut
> > >for the wealthy and in building a " missile shield" ( which will likely
> not
> > >work) because wealthy Republicans get wealthier on the defense contracts.
> > >We are already spending nearly half the money spent on military in the
> > >whole
> > >damn world. Trouble is where we spend it. It will take a whole lot of
> > >citizens telling government what we really want the military to do to
> > >change
> > >things.
> > >Regards,
> > >Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
. .
| Message 27
Subject: Re: Politics
From: "Brent Bingham"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:25:06 -0700
IF, what you seem to believe were all true, do we DO nothing? Through the
baby out with the bath water? IF anyone reads the GOOD BOOK, we know there
are to be signs of the times. IF you do not, then you do not know who is to
win between the Jews and the rest! IF you do believe then you know we must
DO what we can but we will never change what is going to happen. WE can help
ease the suffering and work with in the system we have. I am not a bible
thumper but I read a LOT. I enjoy divergent views and I learn something
everyday.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Allen Wells"
To: "Aquaponics"
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 11:58 PM
Subject: RE: Politics
> Hi Brent,
>
> I think I agree with both you and Steve on this one
because
> I can see both viewpoints. (Like Steve, this is my only post
> on this
.not trying to start a thread
.just expressing my view).
>
> You sure have had an interesting life. It doesn't seem like there
> is much you haven't seen or been involved in.
>
> >We cannot send an army with guns to guard every nomadic group wandering
> looking for food can we ?
> Brent
>
> I agree with what you said to an extent.>
but oil definitely was a factor in Kuwait. An old article clip.>
> "The real reason for U.S. opposition to Iraqi occupation of Kuwait is not
> to keep oil prices low, but to keep Washington, Wall Street, and their
> allies in charge of setting oil prices. We are fighting to maintain and
> even enlarge one of our few continuing claims to international economic
> clout: control of oil prices. The Bush administration and the New York
> Times alike view the Mideast as an extension of Texas. It is "our oil,"
> not theirs. The U.S. oil posture is not a sober defense of countries
> dependent on oil. It is a greedy offensive that pursues U.S. oil
advantage.
> Most countries, particularly Third World countries, suffer horribly for
> these policies".
> --
>
> We can't guard everyone but we shouldn't be doing things like this
either.> another older article.>
> --
> "Another point that many people don't seem to know about, or if they do
then
> choose not to discuss, is the fact that Cheney as Defense Secretary
secretly
> received Nigeria's General Sani Abacha in the U.S. prior to the election
> that was won by Mashood Abiola and thwarted by Gen. Babangida. Although
> Abacha was ostensibly second in command to Babangida, nevertheless,
Cheney,
> along with Gen. Powell, arranged for Abacha to be given the highest U.S.
> military award ever given to an officer of a foreign army.
>
> Within due time after Abacha returned to Nigeria, this man - reputed to
> be the mastermind behind several previous coups - initiated the seventh
> coup in that country's then 33-year history and imposed the most brutal
> regime that Nigerians can recall. The prize again was oil.
>
> The U.S. eventually was forced to publicly denounce Abacha and his
> bloodthirsty oiligarchy, especially in the wake of the assassination
> of Ken Saro-Wiwa and his eight other Ogoni activists. Saro-Wiwa and
> his colleagues were murdered because of their leadership in leading
> protests against the gross exploitation of their people and land by
> the international oil cartel. While Abacha has since passed away, the
> fact remains that the U.S. has shown little interest in helping the
> new Nigerian government retrieve the $43 billion that their honoree
> stole while he officiated over what has been called the "world's largest
> case of known government corruption [that] has exposed [the] weaknesses
> in the international banking system's regulation of money laundering."
>
> With all of this in mind, let us remember that Cheney, is the Chief
> Executive Officer and Chairman of the world's largest oil industry
> server, the Halliburton company of Dallas, Texas. Halliburton is an
> all-service multimillion dollar company that provides equipment and
> arranges other assistance for companies that are engaged in oil and
> natural gas exploration. Cheney's Halliburton is also supportive of
> petroleum company mergers and a major contributor to the Republican
> Party".
> -----
>
> I think these are the kind of things Steve was talking about. Ya know
> Brent
.I used to be a die hard republican because I believed in
> conservative values and I believed in the "Republic". Things have
> changed
.both sides are self-serving anymore. Oh sure, a little
> humanitarian
> work gets done here and there. A few do care
.then other times
> it's just a show
.buys votes. Most real humanitarian work gets done
> by the people
not our governments
.they just throw money at it.
> If we cared (at the federal level) about farmers or energy, all that corn
> that we over-produce every year and just rots/molds would be making
ethanol.
> South America is working hard at this
we aren't. Instead we sunsidize
> the farmers
.it makes no sense but looks like they care.
> We haven't created the infrastructure to support it because it threatens
oil
>
so states like Kentucky are taking matters into their own hands and
> doing
> it themselves. You think Cheney cares more about Texas farmers than his
> oil buddies? Texas=oil for him
.it's made him rich. Opening up the
> Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for oil exploration isn't about honest
> concerns over energy
.it's about black gold
.Texas Tea.>
> We need an Agrarian Party
.LOL. You've been around
.you can be
> Secretary of State
.We could build our cabinet from the cast of
> characters we have here
.LOL
.(just trying to end this on a light note.
> Again, I can see both sides.)
>
> peace.> mark
>
>
. .
| Message 28
Subject: Alternative Energy (was Re: Real military aid)
From: Lynn Wigglesworth
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:40:04 -0400
At 04:41 PM 8/20/2001 -0500, pantryman 'at' empireone.net wrote:
>
>Brent
.>I disagree with you
here is why.>Keeping the world going does not take oil
.it takes creativity and a
willingness to run a risk.>The world's supply of oil is finite
.it WILL run out some day. What then???
>We are working with 2 alternatives to the use of oil
.alcohol fuel and
synthesis gas.
>In upstate New York, growing anything in the winter requires ancillary
light and heat. We will
>be demonstrating an aquaponics system which will accomodate both of these
fuels to supply
>electricity and heat.
Thank you Bob for bringing this back to aquaponics and for this info. Where
are you located? Will you be giving tours? Where do you get the
microturbines? I've looked into producing biogas to burn as a heat source,
but I've already bitten off a little more than I can manage for now, so
that will have to wait.
I plan to use radiant heat pipes (with a circulating pump and themostat) in
my greenhouse, with a heat exchanger run through a large manure/compost
pile. The pile maintains an internal temperature of 120 degrees F for at
least 2-3 months (I think someone
.Arlos?
.posted a website URL about
this a couple of weeks ago). Being on a farm, I've got tons of manure, so
why not put it to work? I plan to put a loop under the fishtank, one
through the bottom of the growbeds, and a coil of pipe (or some sort of
heat exchanger) in the tank itself. My greenhouse is on it's way, and I'm
really getting psyched about this! Off once again into the unknown :-)
Your neighbor to the south.
Lynn Wigglesworth
Peasant Farmer
Tioga County, PA
lynnw 'at' ptd.net
. .
| Message 29
Subject: They got an awful lot of coffee in Brazil
From: "TGTX"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:53:27 -0500
>From a news article I read:
"Globally, Brazil and Columbia are the two major coffee producers,
accounting for over 40 per cent of total production. Both countries are
large producers of the arabica variety of coffee. In India, where the
robusta variety is abundant, coffee production has risen from 17,000 tonnes
at the time of Independence to the current 300,000 tonnes - still a mere 4.1
per cent of global production. Of this, Tata Coffee, with plantations spread
over 8000 hectares, produced 10,000 tonnes.
Ashraff pointed to Vietnam suddenly emerging as a large producer of the
robusta variety: "until a couple of decades ago, Vietnam was war-torn. Its
agricultural produce was routed through Thailand. Today, Vietnam has emerged
as the third largest producer of robusta coffee in the world, almost on par
with Columbia! And because of this huge production, prices of robusta have
crashed."
"Until five years ago, Vietnam wasn't known for its coffee. Today, its
annual production is in the range of 680,000 tonnes (11,350,000 bags of 60
kg). Compare this to Brazil's 1,866,000 tonnes and Columbia's 720,00 tonnes.
"
I had earlier heard that the totalitarian state of Vietnam was 2nd in
robusta coffee production after Brazil. I guess this article states that
they are 3rd
for now.
My clenched fist will rise in the square.
My folded hands will focus my prayer.
Ted
> aloha, tgtx
.being a gourmet coffee grower in hawaii
brazil is the
world's
> largest coffee producer, their coffee being known as 'rio', verses other
> 'arabica' coffees as 'mild'
.viet nam is not number 2, and they primarily
> raise 'robusta', fact is, china sends vn their coffee to be
> marketed
.coffee is the second most traded commodity in the world, next
to
> oil, africa, kenya AA does its fair share, as does other african
countries,
> when a chlorine extraction is made to make decaf, for the soda industry,
it
> is evaporated at 200 F, as you brew the coffee, the swiss water method is
> just another way
.if you drink high elevation gourmet coffee, you won't
get
> the shakes nor the high caffiene content
.cowboy
. .
| Message 30
Subject: Re: Alternative Energy (was Re: Real military aid)
From: pantryman 'at' empireone.net
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:53:02 -0500
Hi Lynn
Thank you for the kind words.We are now in the funding stage for this project - the part I enjoy the least.
As to tours, you would most certainly be welcome to come take a look when completed
however, if this is inconvenient for you, we plan on taping everything from the ground up
and archiving the tapes
.we will also broadcast this virtually on the web.
I recall hearing of an off-the-shelf biodigester for the generation of methane from manure.
With animals on your farm, you can make it count twice
personally, it kinda scares me
all
you need
is a little O2 mixed in and a spark, and your new location is on the moon
.but this is my
own personal fear
I also recall an experiment some years ago by the Mother Earth News whereby they tried to
generate domestic hot water using a large compost heap and fluid pumped through it using black
poly pipe
.this was done during the dead of winter
.not too sure it was a smashing success.I will have to look up the manufacturer of the microturbines
.but I believe they can be run on
methane right now
.we are waiting for them to modify the burner to accomodate alcohol fuel.
The microturbine is essentially an aircraft engine which has been miniaturized to turn an
alternator 'at' 100,000+ RPM's
. (this puppy really honks)
.the entire unit only weighs
350 pounds and generates 45Kw
exhaust temp is around 1300 degrees F.
In your case, I could envision energy independence for your whole farm and home from
the generation of methane.Give me a few days to put some finishing touches on our web page and I will send you
the URL
.you can see all of our agricultural projects there.Bob
Lynn Wigglesworth wrote:
>
> At 04:41 PM 8/20/2001 -0500, pantryman 'at' empireone.net wrote:
> >
> >Brent
.> >I disagree with you
here is why.> >Keeping the world going does not take oil
.it takes creativity and a
> willingness to run a risk.> >The world's supply of oil is finite
.it WILL run out some day. What then???
> >We are working with 2 alternatives to the use of oil
.alcohol fuel and
> synthesis gas.
> >In upstate New York, growing anything in the winter requires ancillary
> light and heat. We will
> >be demonstrating an aquaponics system which will accomodate both of these
> fuels to supply
> >electricity and heat.
>
> Thank you Bob for bringing this back to aquaponics and for this info. Where
> are you located? Will you be giving tours? Where do you get the
> microturbines? I've looked into producing biogas to burn as a heat source,
> but I've already bitten off a little more than I can manage for now, so
> that will have to wait.
>
> I plan to use radiant heat pipes (with a circulating pump and themostat) in
> my greenhouse, with a heat exchanger run through a large manure/compost
> pile. The pile maintains an internal temperature of 120 degrees F for at
> least 2-3 months (I think someone
.Arlos?
.posted a website URL about
> this a couple of weeks ago). Being on a farm, I've got tons of manure, so
> why not put it to work? I plan to put a loop under the fishtank, one
> through the bottom of the growbeds, and a coil of pipe (or some sort of
> heat exchanger) in the tank itself. My greenhouse is on it's way, and I'm
> really getting psyched about this! Off once again into the unknown :-)
>
> Your neighbor to the south.>
> Lynn Wigglesworth
> Peasant Farmer
> Tioga County, PA
> lynnw 'at' ptd.net
>
>
. .
| Message 31
Subject: Re: failing on tomatos
From: "gerry magnuson"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:21:30 -1000
howdy bob, the volcano was the cause
.I had 4 acres in pole string beans,
nets, the volcanic gas came in, and right before my eyes, turned the entire
crop white, as in dead, the area will get a blue haze
.coffee loves
sulphuric acid
.cowboy
>From: pantryman 'at' empireone.net
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>CC: "gerry magnuson"
>Subject: Re: failing on tomatos
>Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:52:35 -0500
>
>Cowboy.>The flower drop on your peppers was most likely due to a magnesium
>deficiency during fruit-set.
>This could be corrected by using a solution of 1 tablespoon of epsom salts
>per gallon of water and
>applying as a foliar feed during flowering through fruit maturity. This is
>a very common cause of
>spontaneous flower abort in peppers.
>Bob
>
>"gerry magnuson" wrote:
> >
> > had the same problem in hawaii with bell peppers, was growing a number
>of
> > acres, getting 45,000 pounds per acre, found my golden egg, then, as you
>are
> > experiencing, my flowers/blossoms were falling off, tried liquid
>calcium,
> > nothing
.sent a leaf sample to UCD, never use hawaiian schools for
>tests,
> > they did a quincy on the leaves, lead and copper with the sulphuric acid
> > from madam pele(volcano), changed to broccoli and cabbage and string
> > beans
.if your tomato plants are not showing any activity on the outer
> > leafs, it is not a root problem
.cowboy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Steven Medlock"
> > >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> > >
> > >Subject: failing on tomatos
> > >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 19:44:45 -0500
> > >
> > >I have got fantastic looking plants, and am still loosing 80 persent of
>my
> > >blooms. The humidity is no worse than it is outside. The bees have
>done
> > >nothing. I have went to hand pollinating and am still having no luck.
> > >Should I go with a Plant that is made for a greenhouse. Otherwise I
>have
> > >to
> > >come up with another idea.
> > >Thanks,
> > >Red
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
. .
| Message 32
Subject: Re: failing on tomatos
From: pantryman 'at' empireone.net
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 19:48:34 -0500
Hey cowboy
You really got me with that response
.been sitting here laughing for the past 10 minutes.Sorry for the misadvice.You didn't SAY that you had a volcano in your back yard
.LOL
That certainly would contribute to a little blossom drop
Bob
"gerry magnuson" wrote:
>
>
> howdy bob, the volcano was the cause
.I had 4 acres in pole string beans,
> nets, the volcanic gas came in, and right before my eyes, turned the entire
> crop white, as in dead, the area will get a blue haze
.coffee loves
> sulphuric acid
.cowboy
>
>
>
>
> >From: pantryman 'at' empireone.net
> >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >CC: "gerry magnuson"
> >Subject: Re: failing on tomatos
> >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:52:35 -0500
> >
> >Cowboy.> >The flower drop on your peppers was most likely due to a magnesium
> >deficiency during fruit-set.
> >This could be corrected by using a solution of 1 tablespoon of epsom salts
> >per gallon of water and
> >applying as a foliar feed during flowering through fruit maturity. This is
> >a very common cause of
> >spontaneous flower abort in peppers.
> >Bob
> >
> >"gerry magnuson" wrote:
> > >
> > > had the same problem in hawaii with bell peppers, was growing a number
> >of
> > > acres, getting 45,000 pounds per acre, found my golden egg, then, as you
> >are
> > > experiencing, my flowers/blossoms were falling off, tried liquid
> >calcium,
> > > nothing
.sent a leaf sample to UCD, never use hawaiian schools for
> >tests,
> > > they did a quincy on the leaves, lead and copper with the sulphuric acid
> > > from madam pele(volcano), changed to broccoli and cabbage and string
> > > beans
.if your tomato plants are not showing any activity on the outer
> > > leafs, it is not a root problem
.cowboy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Steven Medlock"
> > > >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> > > >
> > > >Subject: failing on tomatos
> > > >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 19:44:45 -0500
> > > >
> > > >I have got fantastic looking plants, and am still loosing 80 persent of
> >my
> > > >blooms. The humidity is no worse than it is outside. The bees have
> >done
> > > >nothing. I have went to hand pollinating and am still having no luck.
> > > >Should I go with a Plant that is made for a greenhouse. Otherwise I
> >have
> > > >to
> > > >come up with another idea.
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >Red
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
. .
| Message 33
Subject: Re: Alternative Energy (was Re: Real military aid)
From: "Arlos"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 19:16:16 -0700
I'm affraid to ask, exactly how much noise this makes? I suppose the waste
heat could find some useful purpose like melting down the family minivan.
Gads, thats one heat signature!
>alternator 'at' 100,000+ RPM's
. (this puppy really honks)
.the entire >unit
only weighs
>350 pounds and generates 45Kw
exhaust temp is around 1300 >degrees F.
>In your case, I could envision energy independence for your whole >farm and
home from
>the generation of methane.
Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: pantryman 'at' empireone.net
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Date: Monday, August 20, 2001 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: Alternative Energy (was Re: Real military aid)
>
>Hi Lynn
>Thank you for the kind words.>We are now in the funding stage for this project - the part I enjoy the
least.
>As to tours, you would most certainly be welcome to come take a look when
completed
>however, if this is inconvenient for you, we plan on taping everything from
the ground up
>and archiving the tapes
.we will also broadcast this virtually on the web.
>I recall hearing of an off-the-shelf biodigester for the generation of
methane from manure.
>With animals on your farm, you can make it count twice
personally, it
kinda scares me
all you need
>is a little O2 mixed in and a spark, and your new location is on the
moon
.but this is my
>own personal fear
>I also recall an experiment some years ago by the Mother Earth News whereby
they tried to
>generate domestic hot water using a large compost heap and fluid pumped
through it using black
>poly pipe
.this was done during the dead of winter
.not too sure it was a
smashing success.>I will have to look up the manufacturer of the microturbines
.but I
believe they can be run on
>methane right now
.we are waiting for them to modify the burner to
accomodate alcohol fuel.
>The microturbine is essentially an aircraft engine which has been
miniaturized to turn an
>alternator 'at' 100,000+ RPM's
. (this puppy really honks)
.the entire unit
only weighs
>350 pounds and generates 45Kw
exhaust temp is around 1300 degrees F.
>In your case, I could envision energy independence for your whole farm and
home from
>the generation of methane.>Give me a few days to put some finishing touches on our web page and I will
send you
>the URL
.you can see all of our agricultural projects there.>Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>Lynn Wigglesworth wrote:
>>
>> At 04:41 PM 8/20/2001 -0500, pantryman 'at' empireone.net wrote:
>> >
>> >Brent
.>> >I disagree with you
here is why.>> >Keeping the world going does not take oil
.it takes creativity and a
>> willingness to run a risk.>> >The world's supply of oil is finite
.it WILL run out some day. What
then???
>> >We are working with 2 alternatives to the use of oil
.alcohol fuel and
>> synthesis gas.
>> >In upstate New York, growing anything in the winter requires ancillary
>> light and heat. We will
>> >be demonstrating an aquaponics system which will accomodate both of
these
>> fuels to supply
>> >electricity and heat.
>>
>> Thank you Bob for bringing this back to aquaponics and for this info.
Where
>> are you located? Will you be giving tours? Where do you get the
>> microturbines? I've looked into producing biogas to burn as a heat
source,
>> but I've already bitten off a little more than I can manage for now, so
>> that will have to wait.
>>
>> I plan to use radiant heat pipes (with a circulating pump and themostat)
in
>> my greenhouse, with a heat exchanger run through a large manure/compost
>> pile. The pile maintains an internal temperature of 120 degrees F for at
>> least 2-3 months (I think someone
.Arlos?
.posted a website URL about
>> this a couple of weeks ago). Being on a farm, I've got tons of manure, so
>> why not put it to work? I plan to put a loop under the fishtank, one
>> through the bottom of the growbeds, and a coil of pipe (or some sort of
>> heat exchanger) in the tank itself. My greenhouse is on it's way, and I'm
>> really getting psyched about this! Off once again into the unknown :-)
>>
>> Your neighbor to the south.>>
>> Lynn Wigglesworth
>> Peasant Farmer
>> Tioga County, PA
>> lynnw 'at' ptd.net
>>
>>
>
. .
| Message 34
Subject: Re: Tilapia
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:01:16 -0500
Hi Robert,
I "think" that I may have a few for you. The Tilapia that I set in cages in
my pond are apparently breeding. I have such a "hodgepodge" of fish now that
I don't know what I have. But, I do have a few in 30 & 50 gal aquariums. If
they do prove to be Tilapia, I will let you know.
Pls. touch base with me again in a couple of weeks. I don't want to sell you
Tilapia and they turn out to be something else.
Be sure and ask me again in a couple of weeks, because I promise you, I will
forget.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Rogers"
To: "aquaponics mail group"
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 3:12 PM
Subject: Tilapia
I am looking for someplace to obtain a few Tilapia fingerlings. I am located
in Kentucky at the present time.
If anyone could help me find a source where I could purchase a small number
I would appreciate it.
Thanks, Bob
ps. I am setting up a 200 gal. experimental system,
. .
| Message 35
Subject: Re: Alternative Energy (was Re: Real military aid)
From: pantryman 'at' empireone.net
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:21:12 -0500
Hi Arlos.Actually, the cabinet is pretty well insulated to reduce noise
.and remember this is a SMALL
turbine
.the entire gizmo only weighs 350 pounds.For my neck of the woods, when in the dead of winter its a -20 degrees F. or lower, the heat
from this
unit is very welcome
.during the summer it can be easily placed outside the greenhouse
for power generation or to simply cook hotdogs
A recouperator can be added to provide heat for domestic water or a hot tub or a fish tank
or
.since
it gets nippy here in winter
.to prewarm fish effluent before running it to your plant
beds
this has a
stimulating effect on plants.Arlos, if you like the heat signature on this unit, consider the outdoor furnace to heat our
greenhouses
which generates 1.5 million BTU's per hour at full bore
.it can accomodate wood or specific
MSW
or even moldy baled hay
.its kinda big though
.it needs to be loaded with a forklift.Now THIS puppy would melt down a minivan
Bob
"Arlos" wrote:
>
> I'm affraid to ask, exactly how much noise this makes? I suppose the waste
> heat could find some useful purpose like melting down the family minivan.
> Gads, thats one heat signature!
>
> >alternator 'at' 100,000+ RPM's
. (this puppy really honks)
.the entire >unit
> only weighs
> >350 pounds and generates 45Kw
exhaust temp is around 1300 >degrees F.
> >In your case, I could envision energy independence for your whole >farm and
> home from
> >the generation of methane.>
> Arlos
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pantryman 'at' empireone.net
> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> Date: Monday, August 20, 2001 5:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Alternative Energy (was Re: Real military aid)
>
>
> >
> >Hi Lynn
> >Thank you for the kind words.> >We are now in the funding stage for this project - the part I enjoy the
> least.
> >As to tours, you would most certainly be welcome to come take a look when
> completed
> >however, if this is inconvenient for you, we plan on taping everything from
> the ground up
> >and archiving the tapes
.we will also broadcast this virtually on the web.
> >I recall hearing of an off-the-shelf biodigester for the generation of
> methane from manure.
> >With animals on your farm, you can make it count twice
personally, it
> kinda scares me
all you need
> >is a little O2 mixed in and a spark, and your new location is on the
> moon
.but this is my
> >own personal fear
> >I also recall an experiment some years ago by the Mother Earth News whereby
> they tried to
> >generate domestic hot water using a large compost heap and fluid pumped
> through it using black
> >poly pipe
.this was done during the dead of winter
.not too sure it was a
> smashing success.> >I will have to look up the manufacturer of the microturbines
.but I
> believe they can be run on
> >methane right now
.we are waiting for them to modify the burner to
> accomodate alcohol fuel.
> >The microturbine is essentially an aircraft engine which has been
> miniaturized to turn an
> >alternator 'at' 100,000+ RPM's
. (this puppy really honks)
.the entire unit
> only weighs
> >350 pounds and generates 45Kw
exhaust temp is around 1300 degrees F.
> >In your case, I could envision energy independence for your whole farm and
> home from
> >the generation of methane.> >Give me a few days to put some finishing touches on our web page and I will
> send you
> >the URL
.you can see all of our agricultural projects there.> >Bob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Lynn Wigglesworth wrote:
> >>
> >> At 04:41 PM 8/20/2001 -0500, pantryman 'at' empireone.net wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Brent
.> >> >I disagree with you
here is why.> >> >Keeping the world going does not take oil
.it takes creativity and a
> >> willingness to run a risk.> >> >The world's supply of oil is finite
.it WILL run out some day. What
> then???
> >> >We are working with 2 alternatives to the use of oil
.alcohol fuel and
> >> synthesis gas.
> >> >In upstate New York, growing anything in the winter requires ancillary
> >> light and heat. We will
> >> >be demonstrating an aquaponics system which will accomodate both of
> these
> >> fuels to supply
> >> >electricity and heat.
> >>
> >> Thank you Bob for bringing this back to aquaponics and for this info.
> Where
> >> are you located? Will you be giving tours? Where do you get the
> >> microturbines? I've looked into producing biogas to burn as a heat
> source,
> >> but I've already bitten off a little more than I can manage for now, so
> >> that will have to wait.
> >>
> >> I plan to use radiant heat pipes (with a circulating pump and themostat)
> in
> >> my greenhouse, with a heat exchanger run through a large manure/compost
> >> pile. The pile maintains an internal temperature of 120 degrees F for at
> >> least 2-3 months (I think someone
.Arlos?
.posted a website URL about
> >> this a couple of weeks ago). Being on a farm, I've got tons of manure, so
> >> why not put it to work? I plan to put a loop under the fishtank, one
> >> through the bottom of the growbeds, and a coil of pipe (or some sort of
> >> heat exchanger) in the tank itself. My greenhouse is on it's way, and I'm
> >> really getting psyched about this! Off once again into the unknown :-)
> >>
> >> Your neighbor to the south.> >>
> >> Lynn Wigglesworth
> >> Peasant Farmer
> >> Tioga County, PA
> >> lynnw 'at' ptd.net
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
. .
| Message 36
Subject: Re: Tech help please
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:14:59 -0500
Hi Mick,
When I first got into this I used to test this, test that and test this
again
.etc. Then there was this guy who made a post that made a lot of
sense to me. He basically said that as long as you can see your fish and
they are feeding, don't worry about it. Your system is fine. I never tested
again. I also never had a problem again.
But, if your fish go off feed, make a major "dump" until they are happy
again. The fish will be your barometer.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mick"
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 12:15 PM
Subject: Tech help please
I read everything posted in here. You tech folks are scarey
. talkin'
about things that make my eyes cross. I'm a musician and only have
about four brain cells devoted to left brain type stuff. I wish I had
your type of expertise but I probably never will.
This is as far as I've gotten on the tech side:
I learned how to test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and oxygen levels.
My system has good readings in these areas.
Should I be concerned about things like PH levels? I have a closed
system with continuous circulation from the fish tank to the plant
tray. My well water is from an aquifer and is very alkaline.
My fish are healthy and my plants are growing. Don't mess with success?
Or learn about PH testing? Is there a natural way to correct alkaline
water?
Thanks,
Mick
. .
| Message 37
Subject: Re: Tech help please
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:15:43 -0500
AMEN!!
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: Tech help please
Mick
If it ain't broke, don't fix it
Bob
Mick wrote:
>
> I read everything posted in here. You tech folks are scarey
. talkin'
> about things that make my eyes cross. I'm a musician and only have
> about four brain cells devoted to left brain type stuff. I wish I had
> your type of expertise but I probably never will.
>
> This is as far as I've gotten on the tech side:
> I learned how to test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and oxygen levels.
> My system has good readings in these areas.
>
> Should I be concerned about things like PH levels? I have a closed
> system with continuous circulation from the fish tank to the plant
> tray. My well water is from an aquifer and is very alkaline.
>
> My fish are healthy and my plants are growing. Don't mess with success?
> Or learn about PH testing? Is there a natural way to correct alkaline
> water?
>
> Thanks,
> Mick
>
>
. .
| Message 38
Subject: Re: Tech help please
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:34:43 -0500
Hi Mick,
No disrerspect to Marc in Canada intended
.but here is another example of
how you can "test" yourself into insanity. If I had a million gallon system
with hundreds of thousands of fish, I guess I would test all of these
things. I think Marc has a very large system.
I guess I still have to stick to what that old farmer said, "If you can SEE
your fish and they are eating well, then you are o.k." I know that my
personal farming etiquette is if the fish swarm to the food, then I know
that all is o.k. If they are hesitant about eating, I do a major water dump.
Works for me.
Now, I don't have the operation that Marc has, so you make your own
decisions.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Laberge"
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Tech help please
Hi Mick,
I don't know how big your system is but
.you should learn about pH, a
sudden change in this can be the difference between healthy or dead fish,
between healthy and unhealthy plants. Although in the short term , pH may
remain stable ( depending on your system; with or without solid removal ) it
will fluctuate to a certain degree. If you don't have any buffer material in
your system like limestone gravel or a sufficient alkalinity levels, you may
be in for a surprise in the future. Do you flush any water ? If you don't,
think of your alkalinity as a buffer reserve which is being slowly eaten
away by the carbon dioxide produced by the fish which turns the water
acidic. The bacteria in your biofilter also are using the alkalinity
reserve, which again , is slowly being eaten away. Eventually the reserve
disappears and the water pH drops down causing your ammonia to become toxic
and your nitrifying bacteria to be so stressed that they do not function
properly causing your nitrite to peak and become toxic to your fish.
best be prepared
Marc Laberge
Québec, Canada
. .
| Message 39
Subject: Re: Politics
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:39:16 -0500
"Whoops" Sorry Brent, Paula keeps us on the straight and narrow and I
correct the spelling.
It is "throw the baby out with the bathwater" not "through the baby out with
the bathwater"
.Sorry, just one of my pet peeves.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brent Bingham"
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: Politics
IF, what you seem to believe were all true, do we DO nothing? Through the
baby out with the bath water? IF anyone reads the GOOD BOOK, we know there
are to be signs of the times. IF you do not, then you do not know who is to
win between the Jews and the rest! IF you do believe then you know we must
DO what we can but we will never change what is going to happen. WE can help
ease the suffering and work with in the system we have. I am not a bible
thumper but I read a LOT. I enjoy divergent views and I learn something
everyday.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Allen Wells"
To: "Aquaponics"
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 11:58 PM
Subject: RE: Politics
> Hi Brent,
>
> I think I agree with both you and Steve on this one
because
> I can see both viewpoints. (Like Steve, this is my only post
> on this
.not trying to start a thread
.just expressing my view).
>
> You sure have had an interesting life. It doesn't seem like there
> is much you haven't seen or been involved in.
>
> >We cannot send an army with guns to guard every nomadic group wandering
> looking for food can we ?
> Brent
>
> I agree with what you said to an extent.>
but oil definitely was a factor in Kuwait. An old article clip.>
> "The real reason for U.S. opposition to Iraqi occupation of Kuwait is not
> to keep oil prices low, but to keep Washington, Wall Street, and their
> allies in charge of setting oil prices. We are fighting to maintain and
> even enlarge one of our few continuing claims to international economic
> clout: control of oil prices. The Bush administration and the New York
> Times alike view the Mideast as an extension of Texas. It is "our oil,"
> not theirs. The U.S. oil posture is not a sober defense of countries
> dependent on oil. It is a greedy offensive that pursues U.S. oil
advantage.
> Most countries, particularly Third World countries, suffer horribly for
> these policies".
> --
>
> We can't guard everyone but we shouldn't be doing things like this
either.> another older article.>
> --
> "Another point that many people don't seem to know about, or if they do
then
> choose not to discuss, is the fact that Cheney as Defense Secretary
secretly
> received Nigeria's General Sani Abacha in the U.S. prior to the election
> that was won by Mashood Abiola and thwarted by Gen. Babangida. Although
> Abacha was ostensibly second in command to Babangida, nevertheless,
Cheney,
> along with Gen. Powell, arranged for Abacha to be given the highest U.S.
> military award ever given to an officer of a foreign army.
>
> Within due time after Abacha returned to Nigeria, this man - reputed to
> be the mastermind behind several previous coups - initiated the seventh
> coup in that country's then 33-year history and imposed the most brutal
> regime that Nigerians can recall. The prize again was oil.
>
> The U.S. eventually was forced to publicly denounce Abacha and his
> bloodthirsty oiligarchy, especially in the wake of the assassination
> of Ken Saro-Wiwa and his eight other Ogoni activists. Saro-Wiwa and
> his colleagues were murdered because of their leadership in leading
> protests against the gross exploitation of their people and land by
> the international oil cartel. While Abacha has since passed away, the
> fact remains that the U.S. has shown little interest in helping the
> new Nigerian government retrieve the $43 billion that their honoree
> stole while he officiated over what has been called the "world's largest
> case of known government corruption [that] has exposed [the] weaknesses
> in the international banking system's regulation of money laundering."
>
> With all of this in mind, let us remember that Cheney, is the Chief
> Executive Officer and Chairman of the world's largest oil industry
> server, the Halliburton company of Dallas, Texas. Halliburton is an
> all-service multimillion dollar company that provides equipment and
> arranges other assistance for companies that are engaged in oil and
> natural gas exploration. Cheney's Halliburton is also supportive of
> petroleum company mergers and a major contributor to the Republican
> Party".
> -----
>
> I think these are the kind of things Steve was talking about. Ya know
> Brent
.I used to be a die hard republican because I believed in
> conservative values and I believed in the "Republic". Things have
> changed
.both sides are self-serving anymore. Oh sure, a little
> humanitarian
> work gets done here and there. A few do care
.then other times
> it's just a show
.buys votes. Most real humanitarian work gets done
> by the people
not our governments
.they just throw money at it.
> If we cared (at the federal level) about farmers or energy, all that corn
> that we over-produce every year and just rots/molds would be making
ethanol.
> South America is working hard at this
we aren't. Instead we sunsidize
> the farmers
.it makes no sense but looks like they care.
> We haven't created the infrastructure to support it because it threatens
oil
>
so states like Kentucky are taking matters into their own hands and
> doing
> it themselves. You think Cheney cares more about Texas farmers than his
> oil buddies? Texas=oil for him
.it's made him rich. Opening up the
> Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for oil exploration isn't about honest
> concerns over energy
.it's about black gold
.Texas Tea.>
> We need an Agrarian Party
.LOL. You've been around
.you can be
> Secretary of State
.We could build our cabinet from the cast of
> characters we have here
.LOL
.(just trying to end this on a light note.
> Again, I can see both sides.)
>
> peace.> mark
>
>
|
