Aquaponics Digest - Thu 08/23/01



Message   1: Re: Tech help please
             from "STEVE SPRING" 

Message   2: Re: Greenhouse heating
             from "STEVE SPRING" 

Message   3: ref: dreadlox & Mick
             from "STEVE SPRING" 

Message   4: Home made solutions
             from "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 

Message   5: Re: Aquaponics for beliefs sake??
             from "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 

Message   6: Re: Home brew filters.             from "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 

Message   7: Artemia cysts
             from "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 

Message   8: Re: Artemia cysts
             from "Arlos" 

Message   9: Help please
             from Andrei Calciu

Message  10: RE: Aquaponics for beliefs sake??
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  11: Re: Help please
             from S & S Aqua Farm 

Message  12: Re: Economy of scale
             from Carolyn Hoagland 

Message  13: Re: ref: dreadlox & Mick
             from Mick 

Message  14: seeds
             from Roy Houston 

Message  15: Re: seeds
             from "Robert Rogers" 

Message  16: Stewardship
             from "Hiromi Iwashige" 

Message  17: BioDiesel
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  18: RE: Economy of scale
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  19: Truefood
             from Mick 

Message  20: Re: Aquaponics for beliefs sake??
             from "Brent Bingham" 

Message  21: Re: Economy of scale
             from "Brent Bingham" 

Message  22: Re: BioDiesel
             from kris book 

Message  23: RE: Economy of scale
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  24: Bacteria Mediated Geochemistry in Aquaponic Media: Sulfur
             from "TGTX" 

Message  25: RE: BioDiesel
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  26: RE: BioDiesel
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message  27: Re: BioDiesel
             from "Brent Bingham" 

Message  28: Profitibality of aquaponics ??
             from "Gene Batten" 

Message  29: RE: Profitability of aquaponics ??
             from "Brett" 

Message  30: Re: Economy of scale
             from "Brent Bingham" 

Message  31: Re: Truefood
             from "Brent Bingham" 

Message  32: Re: ref: dreadlox & Mick
             from Arlus Farnsworth 

Message  33: Re: Profitibality of aquaponics ??
             from Mick 

Message  34: RE: Profitability of aquaponics ?
             from "Brett" 

Message  35: Re: Profitibality of aquaponics ??
             from "Robert Rogers" 

Message  36: Re: Profitibality of aquaponics ??
             from "gutierrez-lagatta" 

Message  37: Re: Profitibality of aquaponics ??
             from "Gene Batten" 

Message  38: Bacteria Mediated Geochemistry in Aquaponic Media: Iron
             from "TGTX" 

Message  39: Aquaponics operation
             from Andrei Calciu

Message  40: cut and snip
             from "Robert Rogers" 

Message  41: Re: cut and snip
             from Andrei Calciu

Message  42: Re: Aquaponics profitability
             from "Robert Rogers" 

Message  43: Re: cut and snip
             from Arlus Farnsworth 

Message  44: Re: cut and snip
             from kris book 

Message  45: Re: Aquaponics profitability
             from "Gene Batten" 

Message  46: Re: Aquaponics operation
             from "Gene Batten" 

Message  47: RE: Aquaponics profitability
             from "Brett" 

Message  48: Re: Aquaponics profitability
             from "Robert Rogers" 

Message  49: Bacteria Mediated Yada Yada  in Aquaponic Media: Phosphorus
             from "TGTX" 

Message  50: Re: cut and snip
             from "Robert Rogers" 

Message  51: Conversion of BTU to Watts
             from "Arlos" 

Message  52: Re: Bacteria Mediated Yada Yada  in Aquaponic Media: Phosphorus
             from "Robert Rogers" 

Message  53: Re: Bacteria Mediated Yada Yada  in Aquaponic Media: Phosphorus
             from "Arlos" 

Message  54: Re: Aquaponics profitability
             from "Robert Rogers" 

Message  55: Re: Aquaponics profitability
             from "Gene Batten" 

Message  56: Re: Bacteria Mediated Yada Yada  in Aquaponic Media: Phosphorus
             from Arlus Farnsworth 

Message  57: Notes
             from Arlus Farnsworth 

Message  58: 
             from "Marshall Janes" 

Message  59: snip
             from "STEVE SPRING" 

Message  60: Re: Bacteria Mediated Geochemistry in Aquaponic Media: Iron
             from Arlus Farnsworth 

.         .
| Message 1                                                           

Subject: Re: Tech help please
From:    "STEVE SPRING" 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:46:50 -0500

Don't open that can of worms
.I get into enough trouble at work with my
jokes, etc
.I mean, my Mama once said, "If Steve had an inhibition, he
would take it out and play with it!"

Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 

Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: Tech help please

Hi Steve

Sounds sexual to me.

Leslie

> You can become very attached to your fish. My original breeders were black
> nilotica and I called them my "chihuahuas". They would just wiggle,
vibrate
> and whatever whenever they saw me. They wouldn't do this with my wife.

.         .
| Message 2                                                           

Subject: Re: Greenhouse heating
From:    "STEVE SPRING" 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:55:02 -0500

No Leslie,

I don't have a problem with cost in heating the water in the "farm". I'm
concerned about heating the greenhouse which is adjacent to the "farm" & my
math was wrong by 50% last night
.I was tired. Thought I would throw that
in before the gurus jump on me.

Luv ya

.ss

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 

Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: Greenhouse heating

Hi Steve

Many of the greenhouse tunnels I have seen use wood or coal boilers to heat
the water, and that costs significantly <$720 ($720 x 8.3 = R5976 = a fair
income in African terms) per month.  Water from the sump is pumped through a
coil or drum over the furnace before going back into the main feed that
supplies the fish tanks.  A single fire is sufficient to maintain 150kl at
26C when the outside temperatures drop to >0C, but I fear your thermal
differential will be greater than this.  Our tunnels are not well insulated
though and you say yours is.

Regards,
                Leslie

----- Original Message -----
From: STEVE SPRING 

Sent: Wednesday, 22 August, 2001 8:04 AM
Subject: Greenhouse heating

> Hi gang,
>
> Well, winter is approaching and the time for my experiment is close at
hand.
> Those of you who have followed my rantings know that I want to grow
> "summertime tomatos in the winter in Wisconsin".
>
> I tried this aquaponically with those $.50/ea hybrid dutch seeds and that
> didn't work out well. I figured that if I could get somewhere between
$150 -
> $300/lb for the tomatos, I would just about break even. So much for that
> idea.
>
> So, I bought a greenhouse
.a 20' x 12' hoop house. I'm growing my tomatos
> in the Earth Boxes in the greenhouse and they are doing very, very well. I
> know Adrianna is not too keen on these. She prefers the hydroponic method.
> (I just CANNOT incorporate another system that I have to babysit.)  But,
> this is working well for me. I have "berjillions" of tomatos when others
in
> my area have a very scant crop. (We have had a very bizarre growing
season.)
> (Adrianna, quick question: Some of my tomatos, maybe 15% have a very hard
> spot on them
.usually at the bottom. Most are perfect, but some have this
> "thing". Any suggestions??)
>
> Now to the meat of this post: Greenhouse Heating. My "farm" (where the
fish
> are) is 80 - 85 F even in the dead of winter because I heat the water with
> an in-tank bayonet style heater. (The "farm" is incredibly insulated. We
> redid the entire building.) I plan on running a heat duct from the farm to
> the greenhouse (apprx. 15') with a forced air fan. This will supply hot
air
> to the greenhouse. I plan on, follow the bouncing ball, turning night into
> day in the greenhouse. I will be running  a 1,000 watt grow light and 1
> (maybe 2) 450 watt grow lights during the night which is the coldest time
> and setting them on timers to kick off shortly after daybreak. I checked
> with Wisconsin Electric yesterday and they confirmed my worst fears about
> the cost of electric heat during the time when all of the supplemental
heat
> will be off. They told me that if I used electric wall heaters that it
would
> cost about $.50/hr per 3 linear feet. Therefore, 18' would cost me $3.00
per
> hour x 8 hrs = $24/day or $720/mo. I don't really believe these figures
> because I ran a radiator type heater last year and it didn't cost near
this
> much, but it is still very, very expensive. Anyone got any ideas. Is there
> any such thing as a propane heater that can be set on a timer? Again
.any
> ideas??
>
> Thanks

.Steve
>
>

.         .
| Message 3                                                           

Subject: ref: dreadlox & Mick
From:    "STEVE SPRING" 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:30:11 -0500

I don't know how to "snip" and as per Paula's request, I'm not answering to
the entire article
.although I am.

Mike, I think Mick's heart is in the right place. I agree with both of you.
For example, I live in the Industrial Giant America and in the "heartland"
Wisconsin. We have apprx. 5 1/2 acres of which 4 is farmable. I would love
to grow "something", but I can't, for the life of me, come up with anything
that is profitable
.even to a small degree. I can't compete with the co-ops
with hundreds/thousands of acres and hundreds of illegal immigrant
employees. (God bless Bush
.let's just open the door to the flood and all
of us can learn to speak Spanish!!) (Don't mean to offend any of our Spanish
people, but "facts is facts".)

My wife, God love her, was depressed the other morning due the time and the
expense of our aquaponic venture. She was just stating in good "woman's
sense" (which keeps us males in line sometimes even though we maybe don't
like it) that she is tired of putting all of this money into something that
doesn't make any money. "I could put the money into a 401K, IRA or
anything
.at least we would be making something." Scared me. She was right.
AGAIN!

I'm starting to rant again. I also agree with the person who made the post,
is there anyone out there who is actually making any money at this?

So far, this venture is like most of my MLM ventures. Everything going out
and very little coming in. Hope my greenhouse works.

Steve

.         .
| Message 4                                                           

Subject: Home made solutions
From:    "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 07:59:20 +0200

Hi Mike

Your use of natural products for energy and feed is both fascinating and
encouraging.  I shall certainly take this up further with you in time.

Leslie

.         .
| Message 5                                                           

Subject: Re: Aquaponics for beliefs sake??
From:    "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:07:56 +0200

Hi Brent

Use of wind power is great.  I would use the wind energy to charge batteries
and run the pumps off the batteries to ensure a constant flow of water.

Leslie

> If you are in an area with wind you can pump water with low pressure air.
> Build a wind air pump and inject air into a 1" pipe submerged in water. as
> the air bubbles rise they push water above them. The water is aerated and
> pumped at the same time. This works very well when you cannot put a
windmill
> up over the water source. With in reason you can have the wind air pump a
> long ways from the water. You can use old car AC units as the pumps.
> Brent

.         .
| Message 6                                                           

Subject: Re: Home brew filters.From:    "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:39:12 +0200

Hi Mike

What volume of waste water did your vortex system generate?  Have you played
with the discharge volume to determine the balance between too much water
and not filtering enough relative to the inflow volume?

Leslie

> The solids are swun out to the side and then they settle out,
> as they hit the inclined section of the bottle to the bottom
> of the gal pail.
> I went to watch the news and came back and was surprised to see the
> green THICK soup that had gathered in the collection chamber.My roof
> plants were glad for that liquid ferti!

.         .
| Message 7                                                           

Subject: Artemia cysts
From:    "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:05:06 +0200

Hi all

Can any of you recommend a source of artemia cysts that is reasonably
priced?

Thanks,
            Leslie

.         .
| Message 8                                                           

Subject: Re: Artemia cysts
From:    "Arlos" 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 04:40:22 -0700

Lesle,

  I buy mine directly from a company in Salt lake City, Utah called ,
"Aquatic Lifeline Inc". They can be reached at;http://www.ali-artemia.com/.
I've found virtually all of the cysts to be viable.

Arlos
-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Ter Morshuizen 
To: Aquaponics 
Date: Thursday, August 23, 2001 1:12 AM
Subject: Artemia cysts

>Hi all
>
>Can any of you recommend a source of artemia cysts that is reasonably
>priced?
>
>Thanks,
>            Leslie
>
>

.         .
| Message 9                                                           

Subject: Help please
From:    Andrei Calciu
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:03:17 -0400

I lost all the emails sent between yesterday at 5PM EST and this morning at
10:00am EST.

Is there a way to get them back? I would like to get a chance at reading
them.

The Zebra mussel message with the link to the website discussing that
scourge is the first message missing (got to read that one).

Thanks,
-_______________
Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)
NEC America, Inc.
14040 Park Center Dr.
Herndon, VA 20171-3227

Voice: 703-834-4273
Fax: 703-787-6613

This message and any attachment are confidential.  If you are not the
intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete the
message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended
recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the
contents to any other person.

.         .
| Message 10                                                          

Subject: RE: Aquaponics for beliefs sake??
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:13:44 -0500

Low water use farming methods like integrated hydroponics has become a major
part of the future of farming in arid regions of the world. We on the list
are in the forefront, the cutting edge, of what is the future arid
regions of the world.
-
Brent,

I liked this and the post about the airlift windmill pump.

Maybe I am so conscious about water because I spent so much time monitoring
it

that and I just have a fascination for all things 'aqua'.

I agree with you that government should be a resource and not a solution.
I think part of our problem is it has been over-depended on to provide
solutions
.the same with industry and jobs.  Now many are being forced
to stand on their own and they don't know how

or in some cases the person
gets knocked down when they try to stand on their own.  My grandmother often
told stories about the old days and she'll mention the days before
electricity
and talk about water freezing on the stove at night.  A lady asked her once
how they got by
.she smiled and said
."You don't miss what you've never
had."
We may have some hurdles to over-come before aquaponics becomes a
"profitable"
venture for many if we define profit strictly in monetary terms.  But in
terms
of learning to "stand on our own", making the best use of our resources,
growing healthier food
.I consider what we are learning to be priceless.

I love being a part of this group.  It wouldn't be any fun if everyone
nodded
and agreed all the time

We can't grow that way.  I don't have all the
answers, not by a long shot
.I'm wrong sometimes, right sometimes

other
times there is no black and white
.just grey.  I do think though that I
have
the mind, the drive and the heart to help others

I think that's why some
of us are here.  It's like the Serenity prayer
."God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can;
and
wisdom to know the difference."  Good words to live by.  If I could stop
what's
going on in parts of Africa, I surely would
.but I can't.  But I can give
healthy tomatoes and a couple of rabbits or fish to a hungry neighbor

and
hopefully, the kindness we share starts a ripple in the water and that will
spread and spread.  The potential of this group is enormous and exciting.

have a good one Brent,
.I agree with Mike
.for us techies, you would be
a fun guy to hang out with 
.LOL> later

mark

.         .
| Message 11                                                          

Subject: Re: Help please
From:    S & S Aqua Farm 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:30:20 -0500

At 10:03 AM 08/23/2001 -0400,Andrei wrote:
>
>I lost all the emails sent between yesterday at 5PM EST and this morning at
>10:00am EST.
>
>Is there a way to get them back? I would like to get a chance at reading
>them.
>
>The Zebra mussel message with the link to the website discussing that
>scourge is the first message missing (got to read that one).
>
>Thanks,

Andrei - I can send you a copy of yesterday's digest, and after midnight can
copy you on today's.  That should give you all that you are missing and then
some.

Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124
Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/

.         .
| Message 12                                                          

Subject: Re: Economy of scale
From:    Carolyn Hoagland 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:39:48 -0500

>We paid for a very expensive lesson.  For what it is worth 
>" there is economy of scale " that a farm size operation 
>cannot reach. A family farm can get free slave labor to 
>play with cutting edge technology. Making "home brew" 
>fuel is not that hard. Making it economical is near 
>impossible.

Hi Brent,
Been There, Done That.  The best "job" I ever had was owning a small
greenhouse and nursery.  I loved that work, but when all was said and
done, I made about minus $0.25 hour in wages.  I believe this was
mainly because I tried to force the plants to live in little
containers above the ground that had to be *hand* watered at least
twice a day in the summer.  I tried to grow too many different things
in a small area, and they all had their own unique water needs.  I'm
sure everyone on this list can remember some part of their aquaponics
operation where they used to do something "the hard way."  

I read a book called "the arguments of agriculture" (produced by
Purdue University - a midwest land grant college) that showed a chart
of food calories produced per energy calories input and guess who was
in the lead?  The Amish farmers!  They "out produced" the corporate
megafarms by a factor of 15:1.

This list is about learning to do things the easy way.  I am most
interested in finding out how to run a total recirculating system
(albeit on a hobby sized level) that uses *all* the by products.  I am
located in an area where land is not expensive and the climate is
temperate.  So I want to grow fish that can live in a wide temperature
range of moderate to low DO water (hence my recent questions about
bluegill, gar, carp and bowfin). I want to suck the settled solids out
of the bottom of the fish tanks and run that through a small, low
cost, low tech biodigester, the fertilizer that comes out of that can
grow duckweed, to feed to the fish.  I want to find some way to use
the offal from cleaning the fish to raise fly larvae that can be fed
back to the fish.  AND, I want to do all of this with as little energy
input as possible.  I don't need maximum yield per square foot.  I
want maximum yield per energy input.  And that means working with the
flow.  

Hobbyists can uncover some very information, because we can don't have
to count our labor during the trial and experiment phase,  and we are
will to play around with small set ups. (Ha! I am iteration #7 of the
stirling solar piston pump, and I expect this will take 7 iterations
more

)  I'm sure there is a place in the world for the small
aquaponics farm.

Carolyn

.         .
| Message 13                                                          

Subject: Re: ref: dreadlox & Mick
From:    Mick 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:48:31 -0500

STEVE SPRING wrote:

> I don't know how to "snip" and as per Paula's request, I'm not answering to
> the entire article
.although I am.

I'm not sure how to "snip" either.  When replying to someone, I go to the end of
their message and backspace/erase my way to the top leaving a sentence or two
that will let the reader know which post I'm responding to.

>
>
>  >

I don't know what article you were responding to.  Maybe you meant someone
else.  I'm glad you think my heart is in the right place anyway!   'cause my
brain can sure get ditzy at times.

As to the rest of your post, you sound a little depressed at your inability to
make money with aquaponics.  I can definitely relate.  We're somewhere between 8
and 10 grand into this venture with any return money still months away.  I've
done the math.  Eventually, we'll have four 850 gal. fish tanks and six plant
trays.  Not a large operation.  Certainly not large enough to generate much
profit, but that's okay.  As long as I can sell enough fish and vegetables to
pay for the energy costs, I'll be a happy camper.  And, well, I just love
growing things.

My motivation is more selfish than money.  I have to grow my own organically
raised food and I've had quarter acre outside gardens die in the heat and
drought for four years in a row.  Food bought in the grocery store makes me ill
with all the chemicals and additives
  what to do
 what to do.

I noticed that the potted plants around my goldfish pond became a jungle when we
cleaned the pond and drained the water onto the plants.  That's how we got into
aquaponics.  We started thinking about a greenhouse system that would
incorporate fish and plants.  We thought it was our idea!    Now we know
there are thousands of people who have been doing aquaponics for years.  We
don't have to invent the wheel but we sure have a lot of catching up to do.

Some wise fella once said:  Do what you love to do
 do it with passion
 and
you'll do it well.  Don't worry about the money, it will follow as night follows
day.

Hang in there, Steve
 at least you'll have fish to eat.
Mick

>
>

.         .
| Message 14                                                          

Subject: seeds
From:    Roy Houston 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:02:37 -0500

One comment on this.  I have no experience in tomato seeds, but in Long Leaf
Pine seeds not all are created equal.  Tests have proven that trees grown in
Virginia from seeds originating in Virginia have greater propagation and
greater survival rates than seeds originating from South Carolina.  It is
believed that this is due to the trees becoming aclimated to the climate in
which they grow.  The trees produced from the South Carolina seeds, being
used to a milder climate could not withstand the harsher climate in
Virginia.

I don't know if this would translate to tomatoes, because trees have long
life spans, while tomatoes last a single season (typically).  However, *if*
you have the option when getting your seeds for the first crop, try to
obtain seeds from plants grown in a climate similar to yours, remembering to
take into account whether the crop was greenhouse produced or grown outside.

Then again, it may make no difference at all .
Roy

>.50 seeds are not the way to go. You could possibly clone. I wouldn't use a
>dutch hybrid greenhouse version. Instead I would use a heirloom that is
>acclimitized as far north as possible. That way you can select your own
true
>seed stock and maintain your greenhouse at a lower temperature, saving
money.

.         .
| Message 15                                                          

Subject: Re: seeds
From:    "Robert Rogers" 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:36:30 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy Houston" 
To: "Aquaponics List" 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 11:02 AM
Subject: seeds
an interesting tomato seed site
www.hos.ufl.edu/ProtectedAg/TomatoTrial99.htm
               Bob
>
> I don't know if this would translate to tomatoes, because trees have long
> life spans, while tomatoes last a single season (typically).  However,
*if*
> you have the option when getting your seeds for the first crop, try to
> obtain seeds from plants grown in a climate similar to yours, remembering
to
> take into account whether the crop was greenhouse produced or grown
outside.
>
>
>

.         .
| Message 16                                                          

Subject: Stewardship
From:    "Hiromi Iwashige" 
Date:    Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:51:51 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

=_NextPart_000_0055_01C12BC1.9D7D4680
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I appreciate Mike's reference to stewardship being a guiding principle =
in deciding what deserves our unqualified support.  The principle of =
stewardship acknowledges the fact that humans have personality, =
intelligence, and responsibility that sets us apart from the rest of the =
natural world.  Yet, it also gives tribute to the fact that we must care =
for the earth and its inhabitants or we suffer unhappy consequences =
along with the rest of the natural world.  For me, this insight has =
helped a lot in sifting through the most extreme expressions of =
environmentalism on the one hand and the excesses of materialism on the =
other.  We might never get this one exactly right but I salute all of =
you who are trying to get it right.

=_NextPart_000_0055_01C12BC1.9D7D4680
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable








I appreciate Mike's reference to = stewardship being=20 a guiding principle in deciding what deserves our unqualified = support.  The=20 principle of stewardship acknowledges the fact that humans have=20 personality, intelligence, and responsibility that sets us apart = from the=20 rest of the natural world.  Yet, it also gives tribute to the fact = that we=20 must care for the earth and its inhabitants or we suffer unhappy = consequences=20 along with the rest of the natural world.  For me, this insight has = helped=20 a lot in sifting through the most extreme expressions of = environmentalism on the=20 one hand and the excesses of materialism on the other.  We might = never get=20 this one exactly right but I salute all of you who are trying to get it=20 right.
=_NextPart_000_0055_01C12BC1.9D7D4680-- . . | Message 17 Subject: BioDiesel From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:49:08 -0500 You asked how soon you can stop purchasing diesel for your tractors and trucks. Here is a URL that may help you in that: http://www.veggievan.org An interesting sidenote to this is that the developer of the diesel engine, Rudolph Diesel created the engine to run on a variety of fuels including vegetable oils. He grew up farms and promoted agricultural based fuels. Somewhere his vision got lost. http://www.veggievan.org/veggievan/article.html here's a neat page with lots of stuff including a DIY waste veggie oil burner . http://www.webconx.com/biodiesel.htm This is a good page on bringing the costs down of commercial biodiesel. http://www.esemag.com/0501/diesel.html Setting up diesel generator to run on biodiesel made from waste vegetable oil is one of my goals. The fuel is also an excellent lightweight lubricant. Is it economical on a small scale? The cost of converting the oil to biodiesel is pretty cheap but you have time involved so for some it may be impractical. I love tinkering so for me it's cheap entertainment while I make fuel .LOL> plus I just want to know how to make engines run on veggie oil a worthy skill I think. You get to make soap and glycerine in the process .three for one. Some of these energy posts may seem off topic but the energy that goes into our greenhouses, pumps, lights etc. is all part of it. If we can keep these costs down as low as possible, our profit margin goes up. I don't know many that paid for propane last winter that aren't looking for alternatives. If we can produce our own energy, then we are not limited by location, brown outs or anything else. A change in net metering laws to include waste to energy systems (which a few states do) will help these systems pay for themselves. mark . . | Message 18 Subject: RE: Economy of scale From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:55:06 -0500 I read a book called "the arguments of agriculture" (produced by Purdue University - a midwest land grant college) that showed a chart of food calories produced per energy calories input and guess who was in the lead? The Amish farmers! They "out produced" the corporate megafarms by a factor of 15:1. -- I smiled when I read this, Carolyn. This is from an interview with Joel Salatin . http://wsare.usu.edu/sare2000/118.htm According to Joel, the cost/benefit ratio on the average farm is $4 of inputs for every $1 in profits. This reflects the growing trend of corporate agribusiness - replacing animal husbandry, land stewardship and wholesome, honest relationships with commodity production based on scale and volume. Joel bucks the trend, boasting a ratio of 50 cents to the dollar on his 550 acre farm, an 800% improvement. "When you eliminate the things that rust and depreciate, the profit potential becomes size neutral. Instead of paying for machinery to run the farm, we let animals do the work." Mark . . | Message 19 Subject: Truefood From: Mick Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:16:57 -0500 http://truefood.org/ This link off the Greenpeace site is worth looking at. They have petitions to the FDA and various corporate food producers about the use of genetically engineered food. There is an article about the farmer that was sued by Monsanto because his crops contained a lifeform patented by Monsanto. Apparently, insects pollinated the farmer's crops with pollen from a nearby Monsanto field containing genetically altered crops. There are various articles about the dangers of genetically engineered food. This directly applies to us. Maybe not right now, but certainly in years to come. Once a gene has been altered and gets out, it can not be called back. Anyway, I'm not trying to start a debate about genetically engineered food, but anyone growing crops from seeds should be aware of what is happening. Read the site, if you've a mind to. There's several petitions to join. August 31st is the deadline for the petition to the FDA asking for food products to be labelled as containing genetically engineered food. Read the list of foods containing genetically engineered ingredients. It will be an eye opener . baby food most of the breakfast cereal brand names like Campbell and Kellogg. What sort of genetic alterations? Oh, things like an extra gene that is a pesticide, making the plant itself a pesticide. At the very least, lifeforms should NOT be patentable. This takes the incentive away from the genetic engineers to create new lifeforms. No patent equals no profit equals they stop doing it. Mick . . | Message 20 Subject: Re: Aquaponics for beliefs sake?? From: "Brent Bingham" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:19:34 -0700 The water is pumped to a very large tank part way up the mountain. We have had a constant supply of water for over 50 years without any other power source. We do have portable PV systems with submersible pumps that we move around the ranches to fill stock watering tanks. We had to change the way we did things for 3 generations. The tree huggers (environatzies spelling?) started pulling down the wind mills and destroying the pumps left alone. We have a radio repeater on top of the mountain that runs on solar charged batteries. We use mother nature where ever we can directly, then help her where needed. Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leslie Ter Morshuizen" Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 11:07 PM Subject: Re: Aquaponics for beliefs sake?? > Hi Brent > > Use of wind power is great. I would use the wind energy to charge batteries > and run the pumps off the batteries to ensure a constant flow of water. > > Leslie > > > > If you are in an area with wind you can pump water with low pressure air. > > Build a wind air pump and inject air into a 1" pipe submerged in water. as > > the air bubbles rise they push water above them. The water is aerated and > > pumped at the same time. This works very well when you cannot put a > windmill > > up over the water source. With in reason you can have the wind air pump a > > long ways from the water. You can use old car AC units as the pumps. > > Brent > > > . . | Message 21 Subject: Re: Economy of scale From: "Brent Bingham" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:49:01 -0700 I believe when things do get bad ( not if ) the only viable food production will be the small farms and operations that have learned to harness mother nature. Our big factory farms are economic as long as we have low cost energy and plenty of it. I believe this list could get a lot of people ready to do themselves and others a lot of good. It seems the seeds planted in a lot of minds are beginning to grow. Abraham Lincoln said something like " government should only do for people what they cannot do better for themselves " . Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn Hoagland" Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 7:39 AM Subject: Re: Economy of scale > >We paid for a very expensive lesson. For what it is worth > >" there is economy of scale " that a farm size operation > >cannot reach. A family farm can get free slave labor to > >play with cutting edge technology. Making "home brew" > >fuel is not that hard. Making it economical is near > >impossible. > > Hi Brent, > Been There, Done That. The best "job" I ever had was owning a small > greenhouse and nursery. I loved that work, but when all was said and > done, I made about minus $0.25 hour in wages. I believe this was > mainly because I tried to force the plants to live in little > containers above the ground that had to be *hand* watered at least > twice a day in the summer. I tried to grow too many different things > in a small area, and they all had their own unique water needs. I'm > sure everyone on this list can remember some part of their aquaponics > operation where they used to do something "the hard way." >snip This list is about learning to do things the easy way. I am most > interested in finding out how to run a total recirculating system > (albeit on a hobby sized level) that uses *all* the by products. I am > located in an area where land is not expensive and the climate is > temperate. So I want to grow fish that can live in a wide temperature > range of moderate to low DO water (hence my recent questions about > bluegill, gar, carp and bowfin). I want to suck the settled solids out > of the bottom of the fish tanks and run that through a small, low > cost, low tech biodigester, the fertilizer that comes out of that can > grow duckweed, to feed to the fish. I want to find some way to use > the offal from cleaning the fish to raise fly larvae that can be fed > back to the fish. AND, I want to do all of this with as little energy > input as possible. > Carolyn > . . | Message 22 Subject: Re: BioDiesel From: kris book Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:00:25 -0600 Mark, I don't have the facts in front of me but, I read that Diesel mysteriously disappeared shortly after bringing his invention to the public's view. kris book > > > An interesting sidenote to this is that the developer of the diesel > engine, > Rudolph Diesel created the engine to run on a variety of fuels > including > vegetable oils. . . | Message 23 Subject: RE: Economy of scale From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:03:09 -0500 I believe when things do get bad ( not if ) the only viable food production will be the small farms and operations that have learned to harness mother nature. Our big factory farms are economic as long as we have low cost energy and plenty of it. I believe this list could get a lot of people ready to do themselves and others a lot of good. It seems the seeds planted in a lot of minds are beginning to grow. Abraham Lincoln said something like " government should only do for people what they cannot do better for themselves " . Brent well said my friend you have probably noticed me using the word "empower" a lot. It's one of my favorites. mark . . | Message 24 Subject: Bacteria Mediated Geochemistry in Aquaponic Media: Sulfur From: "TGTX" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:07:21 -0500 Howdy. Just thinking out loud about bacteria and such and I thought I would launch a tome or two out there and see if it sticks to the wall or not. References: Microbial Ecology Fundamentals and Applications, by Atlas & Bartha, and Introduction to Soil Microbiology by Alexander. Iron, Phosphorus, and Manganese will follow when I have the time. Hope some of you find this interesting. If not, may the long winds blow. Hit delete if you wish. The Sulfur Cycle A larger part of the sulfur in natural soils, usually half to 3/4ths, is organic, that is incorporated into some organic molecule. Only a small percentage, typically less than 1/10th of the total sulfur is found as the inorganic sulfate ion. The soil organic fraction contains 2 groups of characterized components, ester sulfates and amino acids. The former are organic sulfates bearing C-O-S linkages, such molecules accounting for 20 to 65 percent of the total sulfur. Compounds of this class include choline sulfate, aromatic compounds such as tyrosine-O-sulfate, and sulfate containing polysaccharides, althought the actual substances in humus are largely uncharacterized or unknown. The amino acids, which are largely bound into proteins or other polymers, are represented by cystine (or cysteine) and methionine. About 5 to 35% of the sulfur is in this form. Sulfate dominates the inorganic fraction providing that aeration is adequate, but sulfide, elemental sulfur, thiosulfate, and tetrathionate have also been observed in small amounts in natural soils. So, a diverse group of organic compounds containing sulfur is present as substrates to the microflora in soils. Sulfur is also there in the form of some of the B vitamins, thiamine, biotin, and lipoic acid, taurine, etc, some of which are excretory by products of animals. Under aerobic conditions, the terminal inorganic product of sulfur mineralization in the soil is sulfate. In low oxygen or anaerobic conditions, particularly during the putrefaction of proteinaceous matter (including scenescent proteinaceous bacterial biomass that may accumulate as a sludge and die off), H2S and the odoriferous "mercaptans" accumulate. The soil inhabitants capable of oxidizing inorganic sulfur compounds may either by autotrophs or heterotrophs. Autotrophs include 8 or so members of the genus Thiobacillus. But heterotrophic bacteria, actinomycetes, and fungi also oxidize inroganic sulfur compounds. Filamentous fungi produce sulfate from organic substrates represented by Aspergillus, Penicillium, and Microsporum, but further invetigation will undoubtedly disclose additonal groups. The hig rate of sulfate formation by these ubiquitous fungi, the many heterotrophic bacteria able to oxidize inorganic sulfur, and the few thiobacilli in may areas suggest that heterotrophs may be more important than chemoautotrophs in the production of sulfate from organic matter. An important practical implication of the sulfur cycle is the anaerobic corrosion of steel and iron structures set in sulfate-containing soils and sediments. This type of corrosion can severely damagee or destroy pipes and pilings and has posed an unexpected engineering problem- it was once believed that corrosion in anaerobic environments was minimal. The process consists of spontaneous chemical and microbially mediated steps, but the bacterial contribution is essential for driving the whole process. The surface of metallic iron spontaneously reacts with water, forming a thin double layer of ferrous hydroxide and hydrogen. (Fe' + 2H2O ---> Fe(OH)2 + H2) The process would tend to stop here except for the activity of Desulfovibrio desulfuricans, which removes the protective H2 layer and forms H2S (4H2 +CaSO4 ---> H2S +Ca(OH)2 +2H2O). The H2S attacks iron in a spontaneous chemical reaction, forming ferrous sulfide and hydrogen (2H2S +Fe2+ --->FeS +H2) As the sum of the above reactions, (4Fe' + CaSO4 + 4H2O ---> FeS +3Fe(OH)2 + Ca(OH)2), metallic iron is rapidly converted to ferrous hydroxide and ferrous sulfide. Later, we can think about the importance of sulfur&iron&bacteria in our systems . . | Message 25 Subject: RE: BioDiesel From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:08:57 -0500 Hi Kris. yes, Rudolph Diesel disappeared while crossing the English Channel. His body was later found floating in the channel. Some suggested assination .but they never found out exactly what happened. mark . . | Message 26 Subject: RE: BioDiesel From: "Mark Allen Wells" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:17:20 -0500 >Some suggested assination .but they never found out exactly what happened. LOL> assination??? .have to watch those typos! try assassination LOL --- Hi Kris. yes, Rudolph Diesel disappeared while crossing the English Channel. His body was later found floating in the channel. Some suggested assination .but they never found out exactly what happened. mark . . | Message 27 Subject: Re: BioDiesel From: "Brent Bingham" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:32:35 -0700 Mark, We use all of the vegetable oil we can find to fuel our boilers along with the waste motor oil. There is not a lot of oil out hear in the middle of the desert. A good thing to know for all those of us that have stand by diesel generators. You can run a diesel on; natural gas Biogas, or propane. Diesel engines have governors that start shutting of the fuel as is reaches the set rpm. If you use a metering valve you can introduce, gasified fuels or alcohol into the air intake system. You should add an automatic shut off for safety. You start on diesel then gradually add the substitute fuel. You can " mix " a major portion of the total fuel. If you are into Biogas as we are it allows you to use conventional diesel power units. Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Allen Wells" To: "Aquaponics" Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 8:49 AM Subject: BioDiesel > You asked how soon you can stop purchasing diesel for your tractors and > trucks. Here is a URL that may help you in that: http://www.veggievan.org > > > > An interesting sidenote to this is that the developer of the diesel engine, > Rudolph Diesel created the engine to run on a variety of fuels including > vegetable oils. He grew up farms and promoted agricultural based fuels. > Somewhere his vision got lost. > > http://www.veggievan.org/veggievan/article.html snip > mark > > > . . | Message 28 Subject: Profitibality of aquaponics ?? From: "Gene Batten" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:53:44 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. =_NextPart_000_0077_01C12BDB.065BDB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would like to start a discussion about the "profitability potential" = of aquaponics.=20 Having just "discovered" this field recently, I am still learning much = about aquaponics. I see that it can be a rewarding hobby, but how = difficult is it to make money at it? I know it is not a "get rich = scheme", but can a reasonable business be built growing organic herbs & = vegetables and some type of fish (such as tilapia)?=20 Based on some of the posting that I have read, some people have found it = difficult to make any reasonable money through aquaponics. However, = apparently some other people are making a living at it. Perhaps some of the readers of this list will share their experiences, = ideas, and observations concerning the "economics" of aquaponics.=20 I am especially interested in factual numbers such as:=20 * produced XXXX pounds of __________ at a cost of $x per pound and sold = them to _________ for $y per lb yielding $n profit per pound. * invested $XXXXX in greenhouse and related systems.=20 * spend about xx hours per week on aquaponics business. Many of you may be reluctant to share this type of info. If so, please = share what you can. You can also post under a false name so you can = remain anonymous. Obviously, I am interested in this type of info = because I am trying to determine if I want to try to build a business = based on aquaponics. I am not looking to start a large commercial = operation, just a "family" size business that will support my wife and I = and allow us to have a rewarding, rural life style. =20 .Gene in North Carolina =_NextPart_000_0077_01C12BDB.065BDB80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would like to start a discussion = about the=20 "profitability potential" of aquaponics.
 
Having just "discovered" this field = recently, I am=20 still learning much about aquaponics. I see that it can be a = rewarding=20 hobby, but how difficult is it to make money at it? I know it is = not=20 a "get rich scheme", but can a reasonable business be built growing = organic=20 herbs & vegetables and some type of fish (such as tilapia)? =
 
Based on some of the posting that I = have read, some=20 people have found it difficult to make any reasonable money through = aquaponics.=20 However, apparently some other people are making a living at = it.
 
Perhaps some of the readers of this = list will share=20 their experiences, ideas, and observations concerning the "economics" of = aquaponics.
I am especially interested in factual = numbers such=20 as:
 
* produced XXXX pounds of __________ at = a cost of=20 $x per pound and sold them to _________ for $y per lb yielding $n profit = per=20 pound.
* invested $XXXXX in greenhouse and = related=20 systems. 
* spend about xx hours per week on = aquaponics=20 business.
 
Many of you may be reluctant to share = this type of=20 info. If so, please share what you can. You can also post under a false = name so=20 you can remain anonymous. Obviously, I am interested in this type = of info=20 because I am trying to determine if I want to try to build a = business=20 based on aquaponics. I am not looking to start a large commercial = operation,=20 just a "family" size business that will support my wife and I = and allow us=20 to have a rewarding, rural life style.  
 
.Gene in North=20 Carolina
=_NextPart_000_0077_01C12BDB.065BDB80-- . . | Message 29 Subject: RE: Profitability of aquaponics ?? From: "Brett" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:07:29 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. =_NextPart_000_000F_01C12BC3.CC74AC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit great question gene - I'm also interested in others experiences. Brett -----Original Message----- From: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com [mailto:aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com]On Behalf Of Gene Batten Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 10:54 AM To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com Subject: Profitibality of aquaponics ?? I would like to start a discussion about the "profitability potential" of aquaponics. =_NextPart_000_000F_01C12BC3.CC74AC60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
great=20 question gene - I'm also interested in others experiences. =20 Brett
 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com = [mailto:aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com]On=20 Behalf Of Gene Batten
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 = 10:54=20 AM
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Subject: = Profitibality of=20 aquaponics ??

I would like to start a discussion = about the=20 "profitability potential" of aquaponics.
 
 
=_NextPart_000_000F_01C12BC3.CC74AC60-- . . | Message 30 Subject: Re: Economy of scale From: "Brent Bingham" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:16:06 -0700 Mark, We have a business trip we must take to Lancaster County, PA. every May. It is hard to find a fair way to compare Amish farming methods. We purchased a bunch of used greenhouses and took bids on taking them down and shipping them. The labor price we got from the Amish was so low I went out to verify what was wrong. I know farming should be comparable but you are not comparing apples to apples. A horse does not use diesel and they do not pay each other the rate we think is a living wage.There are not enough horses in the entire world to raise just the wheat produced in our USA mid west. That said I think everyone should spend a week in Lancaster and look very closely at what they can teach us. I watched ice-cream bringing made in two 5 gallon freezers being powered by a horse. Home cooling systems were being powered by a paddle wheel in a stream. Horse power was being used on all but a very few farms instead of tractors. My grand father trained and used teams of horses for light farming. They were used primarily in shows to pull restored Wells Fargo Stage coaches and freight wagons in parades. It may come to needing that craft in the future. We really can lure some very voluble lessons if we have open minds. Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Allen Wells" Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 8:55 AM Subject: RE: Economy of scale > I read a book called "the arguments of agriculture" (produced by > Purdue University - a midwest land grant college) that showed a chart > of food calories produced per energy calories input and guess who was > in the lead? The Amish farmers! They "out produced" the corporate > megafarms by a factor of 15:1. > > -- > > I smiled when I read this, Carolyn. This is from an interview with > Joel Salatin . http://wsare.usu.edu/sare2000/118.htm > > According to Joel, the cost/benefit ratio on the average farm is $4 > of inputs for every $1 in profits. This reflects the growing trend of > corporate agribusiness - replacing animal husbandry, land stewardship > and wholesome, honest relationships with commodity production based on > scale and volume. Joel bucks the trend, boasting a ratio of 50 cents > to the dollar on his 550 acre farm, an 800% improvement. "When you > eliminate the things that rust and depreciate, the profit potential > becomes size neutral. Instead of paying for machinery to run the farm, > we let animals do the work." > > Mark > > . . | Message 31 Subject: Re: Truefood From: "Brent Bingham" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:27:14 -0700 You are probably right BUT if you crawl in bed with a rattle snake you do get some protection but you have only your self to blame if you get bit. We in the west know from personal experience that these groups have an agenda and it is not people friendly. I could go on for ever BUT be fore warned. Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mick" To: "aquaponics newsgroup" Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 9:16 AM Subject: Truefood > http://truefood.org/ This link off the Greenpeace site is worth > looking at. They have petitions to the FDA and snip > Mick > > . . | Message 32 Subject: Re: ref: dreadlox & Mick From: Arlus Farnsworth Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:20:42 -0700 Fish farming can be profitable, the vegetable crop is mostly to absorb the waste. Otherwise there would be considerable sewage fees if permitted at all. The nutrient level is not concentrated enough for many plants to function at full throttle. Adulterating tank water with elevated nutrients is undesirable. The logical solution is to devise a compact filter design. The plants are there to remove nutrients from the system, you could use water weeds and compost the product to fertilize other soil crops. So far we have a gravel bed for bacteria that often coincides with the plant bed for roots. But it is not enough for a sustained maximum production realized by other aquaculture techniques, therefore not competitive and presumably only suitable for third world economies where the goal is personal and community food production not profit. Not a matter of policy, more a case of the facts of life. However with an efficient and compact filter design, everything changes and the profit margin is tipped in the favor of conservation of organic mass. With plants we have a situation where not enough nutrients are delivered to support full productivity over space, realizing a competitive loss over maintenance for most food crops. With composting water based non food crops, maintenance can be normalized. I don't know where the margin is, cost of nutrients -vs- cost of maintenance. Has anyone tried watercress beds? Ok, so we supposedly have a problem where fish density is maxing out below a point where maximum vegetable production happens. This is problematic because we want to be competitive. Therefore some other form of filtration is necessary, something that can pull more nutrients out, has the property of being low maintenance and yields products that have immediate or subsequential valuation. I figure by the time I have enough space for commercial trials, some of you will have tried the better ideas. > > I'm starting to rant again. I also agree with the person who made the post, > is there anyone out there who is actually making any money at this? > > So far, this venture is like most of my MLM ventures. Everything going out > and very little coming in. Hope my greenhouse works. > > Steve . . | Message 33 Subject: Re: Profitibality of aquaponics ?? From: Mick Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:59:26 -0500 --8F0262890F0910A260330CFE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gene Batten wrote: > I would like to start a discussion about the "profitability > potential" of aquaponics. Gene, > > Welcome to the list sounds like it's your first time posting. > > It will be hard to make profitability comparisons because each system > is unique. Start up costs won't fit on any average sort of scale. > > What I spent converting my barn to a greenhouse (2k) doesn't compare > to what someone else spends building a greenhouse from scratch. > > In addition, I think many folks buy components for their systems at > auctions and junkyards and the like and the cost is not comparable to > new tanks/pumps/filters/plant trays. > > One thing to look at is cost of energy (fish food, electricity and the > like) versus price per pound of the crop/crops you wish to grow. I > can't give you my figures on this because I don't have any crop ready > for market (raccoon attack long story ) > > Since you haven't begun your aquaponics business yet, lemme offer one > or two things to think about: > > Make sure you have a reliable water well. Have it tested for > impurities and verify the depth of available water. If you have to > use municipal water, you'll have to detox it in large volumes. > > Research your state's requirements regarding fish culture. It will > help determine what sort of system you eventually design. Some states > allow no discharge of effluent water some allow dischage within > highly regulated guidelines. > > Research which species of fish are considered exotic and require a > state permit to culture. Tilapia, for instance, are hardy and great > breeders in fact, they are so good at reproducing and staying alive > in adverse conditions that they will crowd out local game fish Many > states are controlling the import and raising of tilapia. > > Oh one last thing. The market for your fish. The permits required > to sell live fish are different than what is required to sell > frozen/filleted fish. Liabilities from the sale of frozen fish is > another thing to think about. So, the easiest thing is to sell live > fish to restaurants and the like. Do you live near a populated area > interested in buying your fish? Could you transport them live? Do > you figure in the cost of delivering your fish and produce? > > See what I mean? Too many variables to plot a profitability worksheet > as a reference for ALL aquaponics ventures. > > My opinion . aquaponics is a great thing to do for too many reasons > to list here. Will it support your family as a single source of > income? Gosh hon dunno > > Mick > > > > > > > > > > > > --8F0262890F0910A260330CFE Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Gene Batten wrote:

  I would like to start a discussion about the "profitability potential" of aquaponics. Gene,

Welcome to the list sounds like it's your first time posting.

It will be hard to make profitability comparisons because each system is unique.  Start up costs won't fit on any average sort of scale.

What I spent converting my barn to a greenhouse (2k) doesn't compare to what someone else spends building a greenhouse from scratch.

In addition, I think many folks buy components for their systems at auctions and junkyards and the like and the cost is not comparable to new tanks/pumps/filters/plant trays.

One thing to look at is cost of energy (fish food, electricity and the like) versus price per pound of the crop/crops you wish to grow.  I can't give you my figures on this because I don't have any crop ready for market   (raccoon attack long story <g>)

Since you haven't begun your aquaponics business yet, lemme offer one or two things to think about:

Make sure you have a reliable water well.  Have it tested for impurities and verify the depth of available water.  If you have to use municipal water, you'll have to detox it in large volumes.

Research your state's requirements regarding fish culture.  It will help determine what sort of system you eventually design.  Some states allow no discharge of effluent water some allow dischage within highly regulated guidelines.

Research which species of fish are considered exotic and require a state permit to culture.  Tilapia, for instance, are hardy and great breeders in fact, they are so good at reproducing and staying alive in adverse conditions that they will crowd out local game fish   Many states are controlling the import and raising of tilapia.

Oh one last thing.  The market for your fish.  The permits required to sell live fish are different than what is required to sell frozen/filleted fish.  Liabilities from the sale of frozen fish is another thing to think about.  So, the easiest thing is to sell live fish to restaurants and the like.  Do you live near a populated area interested in buying your fish?  Could you transport them live?  Do you figure in the cost of delivering your fish and produce?

See what I mean?  Too many variables to plot a profitability worksheet as a reference for ALL aquaponics ventures.

My opinion . aquaponics is a great thing to do for too many reasons to list here.  Will it support your family as a single source of income?  Gosh hon dunno

Mick
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

  --8F0262890F0910A260330CFE-- . . | Message 34 Subject: RE: Profitability of aquaponics ? From: "Brett" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:15:43 -0700 does anyone have a spreadsheet or proforma from a business plan on aquaponics? thanks, brett . . | Message 35 Subject: Re: Profitibality of aquaponics ?? From: "Robert Rogers" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 15:46:25 -0400 Gene I agree, I have been trying to write a business plan, and am having problems getting any #s at all on actual aquaponics operations. I can figure produce production using straight hydroponics, and aquaculture fish production. That is why I am setting up a small experimental system, I need to know how much/what I can grow using nutrients from the fish side of the operation. It seems to work out, that to make a decent profit (profit is not a 4 letter word) you need to produce 70,000+ lbs per year in fish. This is not enough to get rich but provide enough income for a family unit. I want to not only use the plant beds for filters, but also be able to add a decent income from the produce side of the equation. Looks like about 12 thirty by five foot tanks I am new to this list and everyone has gone out of their way answering all my ignorant questions. If I am way off base please jump in. Thanks ,Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Batten" Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 1:53 PM Subject: Profitibality of aquaponics ?? I would like to start a discussion about the "profitability potential" of aquaponics. I am especially interested in factual numbers such as: * produced XXXX pounds of __________ at a cost of $x per pound and sold them to _________ for $y per lb yielding $n profit per pound. * invested $XXXXX in greenhouse and related systems. * spend about xx hours per week on aquaponics business. Many of you may be reluctant to share this type of info. If so, please share what you can. . . | Message 36 Subject: Re: Profitibality of aquaponics ?? From: "gutierrez-lagatta" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:58:13 -0500 Gene, Tell us what income level you would consider reasonable. Also, are you willing to take on the burden of employees or will it be just you or you and your wife working? >I am not looking to start a large commercial operation, just a "family" size business that will support my wife and I and allow us to have a rewarding, rural life style. . . | Message 37 Subject: Re: Profitibality of aquaponics ?? From: "Gene Batten" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:16:46 -0400 Bob, I am new to this list also, and I have found everyone to be most helpful and friendly. Thanks for adding your "2 cents worth". Since you reference a number of 70,000+ lbs of fish per year to make a decent profit, you must have assumed some production costs and sale price? What do you consider a "decent profit"? If you care to share that type of info, we may be able to build a "collective" business plan based on the input we eventually receive from this thread. I realize that anything we discuss or conclude here is very "simplified" and must be "adjusted" to fit the local environment and individual's situation. However, going through the process and using some real world numbers should be enlightening to beginners like me. Maybe proposing some "assumptions" would help facilitate this discussion. Lets assume that I would like to have a yearly profit of $50,000 after production and marketing expenses (not including income tax, etc). That, I live within 30 minutes of an urban area with almost 1,000,000 population. My climate is temperate (coldest winter night is high 20's, hottest summer day is upper 90's). I have average electricity and fuel cost. I must build all facilities from scratch. Water is from a well. Will do most of the work myself, but can hire labor as required. Maybe these "assumptions" will help "focus" this discussion. Feel free to add additional "assumption" as required. Thanks for all comments. .Gene in North Carolina ----- Original Message ----- > Gene > I agree, I have been trying to write a business plan, and am > having problems getting any #s at all on actual aquaponics operations. I can > figure produce production using straight hydroponics, and aquaculture fish > production. > It seems to work out, that to make a decent profit (profit is not a > 4 letter word) you need to produce 70,000+ lbs per year in fish. This is not > enough to get rich but provide enough income for a family unit. I want to > not only use the plant beds for filters, but also be able to add a decent > income from the produce side of the equation. > Looks like about 12 thirty by five foot tanks > I am new to this list and everyone has gone out of their way > answering all my ignorant questions. > If I am way off base please jump in. > Thanks ,Bob > . . | Message 38 Subject: Bacteria Mediated Geochemistry in Aquaponic Media: Iron From: "TGTX" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 15:17:01 -0500 References: Microbial Ecology Fundamentals and Applications, by Atlas & Bartha, and Introduction to Soil Microbiology by Alexander The Iron Cycle The biogeochemical cycling of iron in the ecosystem consists largely of oxidation-reduction reactions that reduce ferric iron to ferrous iron and oxidize ferrous iron to ferric iron. Quite a while back I told y'all a little story about one of my limnology professors in grad school the way he pronouced "the iron ion" He was originally from Maine, and although he lived in Texas most of his adult life, he still kept much of that Maine accent .kind of an unusual blend of Texan and Maine anyway, so when he lectured about the dynamics of iron and manganese in Texas reservoirs, he would go up to the chalk board and start lecturing about the "ION ION". It was funny, and I think it kind of chapped him that we all thought it was so funny, so he just drew Fe on the board and pointed to it .You should have heard him pronouce reservoir ."Re-ze-vaahh". The way I remember the valence state is "I see (I-C) three but I owe you (O-U) two" Ferric (Fe3+) and ferrous (Fe2+) ions have very different solubility properties. Ferric iron precipitates in alkaline environments as ferric hydroxide. Ferric iron may be reduced under anaerobic conditions to the more soluble ferrous form. Under some anaerobic conditions, however, sufficient H2S may be evolved to precipitate iron as ferrous sulfide. Flooding of soil, which can create anaerobic conditions, favors the accumulation of ferrous iron. In aerobic habitats, such as well-drained soil, most of the iron exists in the ferric state. That was a quick summary of the inorganic side of iron. In organic compounds, iron is often attached to organic ligands by chelation. Organic chelating agents or compounds bonds to metals, such as iron, at several sites (Greek, chela, meaning "claw") and envelopes the metal ion. So a chelating agent or compound encases an atom or ion like a crab or an octopus surrounds a bit of food, each ligand sort of analagous to one of several "claws". Chelated iron can undergo oxidation-reduction transformations, which are utilized in electron transport processes. Inside of cells, cytochromes of electron transport chains contain iron that undergoes oxidation-reduction transformations during the transfer of electrons in the process of cellular respiration. Cytochromes are proteins which have an aton of iron held within a heme group bound to the protein. In cytochromes, the iron can pick up and lose electrons readily, passing from the ferrous to the ferric form and back: Fe+3 + e- <--> Fe+2. This is different from the heme of hemoglobin, which also contains iron, which only picks up and releases O2. The low solubility of ferric iron necessitates relatively elaborate uptake and transport mechanisms for this otherwise abundant element in the Earth's crust. Several groups of bacteria use "siderophores", which are special iron-chelating agents, to facilitate the solubilization and uptake of iron. The excretion of siderophores by an organism is induced by the need for iron on the inside of the cell. There are a number of organisms thought to have these siderophores, but 2 basic kinds of siderophores have been studied extensively. 1) The Phenol-catechol derivatives are such as "enterochelin" and "enterobactin", are synthesized by enterobacteria, for example, and 2) the Hydroxamic acid derivatives synthesized by streptomycetes and some other bacterial groups are referred to as "ferrioxamines". In each case, the ferric iron is chelated by multiple hydroxyl or carbonyl groups as the ferric iron is enclosed in the molecular cage of the chelator. Now, this takes place outside the cell membrane. Siderophores have molecular weights between 500 and 1,000 and are not transported back through the cell membrane, but rather pass on the iron to siderophore receptor proteins in the membrane. The siderophore receptor shuttles the iron through the membrane and releases the siderophore to chelate addition ferric iron ions. Under alkaline to neutral pH conditions, and in the presence of oxygen, ferrous iron is oxidized spontaneously to ferric iron. But it is fascinating to me that microorganisms, can, in large numbers, such as in even thin layers of sediment, alter the oxidation-reduction potential (redox potential) resulting from microbial growth, leading to the formation of the more soluble ferrous from the insoluble ferric ion. Innumberable bacteria and fungi produce acidic products such as carbonic, nitric, sulfuric, and organic acids. Increases in acidity, even on a microscopic scale of just a few microns in width or depth, can bring iron into solution, and it can be snatched by those siderophores or similar extracellular organic transport mechanisms. The ferric ion is favored or more abundant of the two valence states at pH above 6, whereas ferrous ion predominates in solution below pH 5. In bacteria culture media containing soluble ferrous salts, the formation of any alkaline products can cause oxidation and therefore, a precipitation of the metal as ferric iron. ON THE OTHER HAND, if the redox potential potential falls below 0.2 volts, most of the iron will be found in the ferrous state, while at potentials greater than 0.3 volts, the ferric ion is the major form. The interesting thing about aquatic sediments is that if you take a microprobe and push it down through the sediment profile, and plot the redox potential at regular depth intervals, the profile of redox potential can change dramatically over the distance of only about a few millimeters or a centimeter or so, depending on the porosity of the sediment, the oxygen content of the overlying water, the organic matter content of the sediment, and other things. What does this say about the little microzones of redox potential that can form at the very bottom of an aquaponics grow bed, say the very bottom layer of "sediment" that may be only a millimeter, or a few dozen millimeters deep, depending on how well oxygenated and flushed you keep the bed? It is fascinating, to me, that the activity of iron-oxidizing bacteria can lead to substantial iron deposits in nature. Groundwater seeping through sand formations dissolves soluble ferrous salts and while underground, the lack of oxygen usually prevents iron oxidation. But when that groundwater seeps up to the surface, such as in a swampy area, iron oxidizers convert the ferrous Fe+2 to ferric Fe+3, which precipitates as ferric hydroxide and forms bog-iron deposits. Such easily acessible surface deposites were mined extensively and smelted in the early parts of the industrial age. Cool, eh? Since oxygenic photosynthesis in our oceans, forests, and grasslands, keeps our atmosphere rich in oxygen over geologic time . then, most of the iron in the "biosphere", which would include at least the upper layers of the soil for the most part, is in the oxidized (Ferric) state. However, plants seem to get the iron they need from the soil if it is present in any form, as long as the right mix of bacteria and other microorganisms are present to shuttle that iron to the plants. Wouldn't you agree? (Oh, I know "lime chlorosis" in plants, from iron deficiency can take place in extremely alkaline, calcareous soils, with little organic matter present, but forget about that for right now) Hey, don't forget .not only are there siderophores made by our buddies the microbes, but from the plants themselves! What? Tally Ho! How about the phytosiderophore DMA, specifically 2'-deoxymugeneic acid, the predominant siderophore produced by maize? Pretty cool, eh? To read more about phytosiderophores, check this Swiss research site: http://www.ito.umnw.ethz.ch/SoilChem/kraemer/fedis.html In those areas of the "biosphere" where limited oxygen diffusion and vigorous heterotrophic microbial activity create anaerobic conditions, as occurs in the hypolimnion (lower layer) of stratified lakes, waterlogged soils, and aquatic sediments, ferric iron may act as an electron sink and be reduced to Fe2+ ferrous. A large and heterogeneous group of heterotrophic bacteria, including Bacillus, Pseudomonas, Proteus, Alcaligenes, clostridia, and enterobacteria, appear to be involved in iron reduction. The mechanism of iron reduction remains largely unexplored. The facts that nitrate inhibits Fe3+ reduction and that nitrate reductase negative mutants lose their ability to reduce Fe3+ link iron reduction to the nitrate reductase system at least in some microorganisms. Some iron reduction may occur nonenzymatically when reduced products of microbial metabolism, such as formate or H2S, react chemically with Fe3+. In soils, iron reduction is linked to a condition called gleying. Anoxic conditions due to waterlogging or high clay content give rise to the formation of reduced ferrous iron, which gives the soil a greenish grey color and a sticky consistency. The predominant iron reduceres within gleyed soils appear to be Bacillus and Pseudomonas species. Gleyed clays may conatin as many as 10 million iron-reducing bacteria per gram. Treatment of such soils with organic matter enhances the reduction of iron to the ferrous state, and the quantity of ferrous iron appearing in the soil solution is directly realted to the amount of fermentable substrate added. Among the genera containing species able to convert ferric to ferrous iron are Bacillus, Clostridium, Klebsiella, Pseudomonas, and Serratia. Ted . . | Message 39 Subject: Aquaponics operation From: Andrei Calciu Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:21:51 -0400 Before you start collecting assumptions, let's first define what you want to do. Here is an ideal operation, followed by a more realistic one. Ideal setup. 1.- pond and greenhouse operation with multiple tanks feeding multiple plant trays for both fish and veggie or flower production 2.- wholesale operation for live fish sales 3.- wholesale operation for plant sales (both veggies and flowers) 4.- integrated fish mongering operation (cut, gut, fillet, chill, freeze) 5.- integrated plant operation (non-retailable vegetables turned into sauces, etc) 6.- retail operation for veggies and products from item 5, above. 7.- marketing operation to support all the prior stuff. Realistic setup 1.- greenhouse operation with multiple tanks feeding multiple plant trays for both fish and veggie or flower production 2.- fish sales (live and fillets) 3.- plant sales (both veggies and flowers) 4.- family consumption 5.- roadside fruit-stand 6.- marketing when having time to breathe Now, that we have all this laid out. The assumptions can begin. By the way, max fish density will be half pound per gallon, right? and harvest weight will be 2 pounds, live? -_______________ Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270) NEC America, Inc. 14040 Park Center Dr. Herndon, VA 20171-3227 Voice: 703-834-4273 Fax: 703-787-6613 This message and any attachment are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete the message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the contents to any other person. "Gene Batten" > cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: Profitibality of aquaponics ?? aquaponics-request 'at' t ownsqr.com 08/23/01 04:16 PM Please respond to aquaponics Bob, I am new to this list also, and I have found everyone to be most helpful and friendly. Thanks for adding your "2 cents worth". Since you reference a number of 70,000+ lbs of fish per year to make a decent profit, you must have assumed some production costs and sale price? What do you consider a "decent profit"? If you care to share that type of info, we may be able to build a "collective" business plan based on the input we eventually receive from this thread. I realize that anything we discuss or conclude here is very "simplified" and must be "adjusted" to fit the local environment and individual's situation. However, going through the process and using some real world numbers should be enlightening to beginners like me. Maybe proposing some "assumptions" would help facilitate this discussion. Lets assume that I would like to have a yearly profit of $50,000 after production and marketing expenses (not including income tax, etc). That, I live within 30 minutes of an urban area with almost 1,000,000 population. My climate is temperate (coldest winter night is high 20's, hottest summer day is upper 90's). I have average electricity and fuel cost. I must build all facilities from scratch. Water is from a well. Will do most of the work myself, but can hire labor as required. Maybe these "assumptions" will help "focus" this discussion. Feel free to add additional "assumption" as required. Thanks for all comments. .Gene in North Carolina ----- Original Message ----- > Gene > I agree, I have been trying to write a business plan, and am > having problems getting any #s at all on actual aquaponics operations. I can > figure produce production using straight hydroponics, and aquaculture fish > production. > It seems to work out, that to make a decent profit (profit is not a > 4 letter word) you need to produce 70,000+ lbs per year in fish. This is not > enough to get rich but provide enough income for a family unit. I want to > not only use the plant beds for filters, but also be able to add a decent > income from the produce side of the equation. > Looks like about 12 thirty by five foot tanks > I am new to this list and everyone has gone out of their way > answering all my ignorant questions. > If I am way off base please jump in. > Thanks ,Bob > . . | Message 40 Subject: cut and snip From: "Robert Rogers" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:41:19 -0400 Paula Help please, I am wearing out my back key to remove text. I need a short course on trimming. . . | Message 41 Subject: Re: cut and snip From: Andrei Calciu Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:34:03 -0400 left click at the beginning of the text you want deleted. Hold down the clicked key. Scroll to the end of what you want cut. Release key. Everything will be highlighted. Press delete. Everything highlighted disappears. -_______________ Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270) NEC America, Inc. 14040 Park Center Dr. Herndon, VA 20171-3227 Voice: 703-834-4273 Fax: 703-787-6613 This message and any attachment are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete the message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the contents to any other person. . . | Message 42 Subject: Re: Aquaponics profitability From: "Robert Rogers" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:58:59 -0400 Andrei, Gene, and all I believe I pulled my tank number and size from my first year projection of 35,000lbs. I was using a grow out period of 8-10 months for one and one half lb. live fish. Wholesale of $1.70. Using wholesale of both fish and produce. A production cost, not including start up costs, of $.70 per pound fish. Basil wholesale of $3.00lb. Production cost of $1.10lb. Using mulitible tanks and grow beds, buying fingerlings for grow out. . . | Message 43 Subject: Re: cut and snip From: Arlus Farnsworth Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:22:00 -0700 You can hold down the shift key and up or down arrow to highlight one or more lines at a time, then use the delete key on the selected block. Or instead of delete use ctrl-c (copy) then edit-select all then delete then ctrl-v (paste) to delete everything but the selected block. A select inverse or delete inverse even better no command for it. Robert Rogers wrote: > Paula > Help please, I am wearing out my back key to remove text. I need a > short course on trimming. . . | Message 44 Subject: Re: cut and snip From: kris book Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:32:30 -0600 To delete large messages just, press Ctrl+Shift+End at the same time, and everything below your cursor will be highlighted. And then press the Delete key. Everything below your cursor will instantly be deleted. . . | Message 45 Subject: Re: Aquaponics profitability From: "Gene Batten" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:43:24 -0400 Bob, Thanks for the numbers in your email below. Is this a correct summary of you info? Can you fill in the blanks? * took about 10 months to produce 35,000 lbs of fish (were they tilapia?) * fish size was about 1.0 - 1.5 lbs each * production cost of fish (not including start up cost) was about $.70/lb * sold live fish at $1.70/lb ** so, "profit" on fish was about $1.00/lb for a total of $35,000 * took about ____ months to produce ______ lbs of basil * production cost of basil was about $1.10/lb * sold basil at $3.00/lb ** so, "profit" on basil was $1.90/lb for a total of $________ ** Grand total of fish and basil was about $_________ Could you tell us how many and what size fish tanks you have and what size plant growing area? Who buys your fish and basil? Thanks, Gene in North Carolina ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Rogers" To: "aquaponics mail group" Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 4:58 PM Subject: Re: Aquaponics profitability > Andrei, Gene, and all > I believe I pulled my tank number and size from my first year > projection of 35,000lbs. > I was using a grow out period of 8-10 months for one and one > half lb. live fish. Wholesale of $1.70. > Using wholesale of both fish and produce. > A production cost, not including start up costs, of $.70 per > pound fish. > Basil wholesale of $3.00lb. > Production cost of $1.10lb. > Using mulitible tanks and grow beds, buying fingerlings for grow out. > > > > . . | Message 46 Subject: Re: Aquaponics operation From: "Gene Batten" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:55:18 -0400 Andrei, Good definition of a realistic setup. Is your suggested harvest weight of 2 pounds per fish based on your production experience? Others have suggested 1.0 to 1.5 lbs per fish. I have no experience so I do not know what is reasonable. What about the max fish density number of 0.5 lb per gallon? Is that also your experience or a commonly accepted number? Thanks for your input, .Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: > Realistic setup > 1.- greenhouse operation with multiple tanks feeding multiple plant trays > for both fish and veggie or flower production > 2.- fish sales (live and fillets) > 3.- plant sales (both veggies and flowers) > 4.- family consumption > 5.- roadside fruit-stand > 6.- marketing when having time to breathe > > Now, that we have all this laid out. The assumptions can begin. > > By the way, max fish density will be half pound per gallon, right? and > harvest weight will be 2 pounds, live? > -_______________ > Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270) > NEC America, Inc. > 14040 Park Center Dr. > Herndon, VA 20171-3227 > . . | Message 47 Subject: RE: Aquaponics profitability From: "Brett" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:50:57 -0700 Thanks for the info Robert, Is your system completely recirculated? Do you use any supplemental nutrients for the plants? Thanks, Brett -----Original Message----- From: aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com [mailto:aquaponics-request 'at' townsqr.com]On Behalf Of Robert Rogers Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 1:59 PM To: aquaponics mail group Subject: Re: Aquaponics profitability Andrei, Gene, and all I believe I pulled my tank number and size from my first year projection of 35,000lbs. I was using a grow out period of 8-10 months for one and one half lb. live fish. Wholesale of $1.70. Using wholesale of both fish and produce. A production cost, not including start up costs, of $.70 per pound fish. Basil wholesale of $3.00lb. Production cost of $1.10lb. Using mulitible tanks and grow beds, buying fingerlings for grow out. . . | Message 48 Subject: Re: Aquaponics profitability From: "Robert Rogers" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 21:24:16 -0400 Gene My projection is from some numbers that I have pulled from information from an established tilapia operation. I personally have no experiance with raising fish for resale,only hobby. The basil numbers come from recent real wholesale prices, and production costs as projected by the university of florida, using straight hydroponics. As my earlier statements I have had no luck in obtaining numbers from an operating "Aquaculture system" I haven't established the amount/ Sq. ft of basil that can be raised using fish effluent as the only nutrients for the greenhouse side of the operation. I am trying to come up with a business plan to decide if I should invest my time and money, I am not trying to get money from outside investers, so I must be convinced. Using real #s that I can find,is the best that I can do. As I also said before, my projections do not include any start up costs, so those would have to be considered in the cost; debt service, loss of interest/dividends on out of pocket spending, loss of spouse if you go broke, etc I am looking to set up in Fla., there are wholesale outlets for basil, and fish processing plants that will purchase live fish. I have only been working on this for about 3 months so am still in the investigation stage. As I get solid verifiable numbers I will share what I learn. My father was from Rocky Mt. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Batten" Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 8:43 PM Subject: Re: Aquaponics profitability > Bob, > > Thanks for the numbers in your email below. Is this a correct summary of you > info? Can you fill in the blanks? > > * took about 10 months to produce 35,000 lbs of fish (were they tilapia?) > * fish size was about 1.0 - 1.5 lbs each > * production cost of fish (not including start up cost) was about $.70/lb > * sold live fish at $1.70/lb > ** so, "profit" on fish was about $1.00/lb for a total of $35,000 > > * took about ____ months to produce ______ lbs of basil > * production cost of basil was about $1.10/lb > * sold basil at $3.00/lb > ** so, "profit" on basil was $1.90/lb for a total of $________ > ** Grand total of fish and basil was about $_________ > > Could you tell us how many and what size fish tanks you have and what size > plant growing area? Who buys your fish and basil? > > Thanks, > Gene in North Carolina > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Rogers" > To: "aquaponics mail group" > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 4:58 PM > Subject: Re: Aquaponics profitability > > > > . . | Message 49 Subject: Bacteria Mediated Yada Yada in Aquaponic Media: Phosphorus From: "TGTX" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:19:36 -0500 References: Microbial Ecology Fundamentals and Applications, by Atlas & Bartha, and Introduction to Soil Microbiology by Alexander The Phosphorus Cycle The biological availability of phosphorus is restricted by its tendency to precipitate in the presence of bivalent metals (Ca2+, Mg2+) and ferric (Fe+3) ions and neutral to alkaline pH. In a body of freshwater, such as a lake or a "res-a-vaah", heh,heh the relatively large phosphorus "compartment" in the aquatic sediments is recycled through the benthic biota and back and forth within the sediments at relatively slower rates, compared with the relatively smaller "compartment" of phosphorus in the water column itself, which is relatively more rapidly recyled internally within the water column. Are you with me? Inorganic phosphate, PO4, is highly soluble in the water but the organically bound phosphorus is primarily in solid form in natural aquatic ecosystems and is present pretty much as suspended particulate matter in the water column, or as precipitated solids in the aquatic sediments. I hope some of you have an apatite for this information .bada-boom, bada-bing Most phosphorus transformations mediated by microorganisms can be viewed as transfers of inorganic to organic phosphorus, or as transfers of phosphorus from insolumbed forms to soluble forms. It goes both ways, as they say. Here's some interesting stuff which I actually kinda remember from Wetzel's Limnology text way back before Ned was a pup. The final product of phosphate reduction by in soils and sediments would be phosphine (PH3). Phosphine is volatile and spontaneously ignites in contact with oxygen, producing a green glow. The production of phosphine is sometimes (thought to be) observed near swamps where there is extensive decomposition of organic matter. Such spontaneous combustion of phosphine can also ignite the methane produced in similar environments, giving rise to ghostly light phenomena. So, swamp haints on the prowl with bad gas. Gotta love it. Although phosphate can combine with calcium in the aquatic environment, making it insoluble, some heterotrophic microorganisms are capable of solubilizing phosphorus from such mineral preciptitates. While the microorganism work on these mineral substrates to solublize phosphorus for their own benefit, they also act to release it for use by other organisms, such as our plant buddies. The mechanism of phosphorus solubilization is normally by production of organic acids. Within soils, phosphorus also exists as insoluble iron, magnesium, and aluminum salts. The mobilization of insoluble ferric phosphate may occur when microorganisms reduce ferric to ferrous iron. Mineralization of organic phosphorus is a process catalyzed by phosphatase enzymes, which are produced by many microorganisms. Some bacteria and fungi produce phytase, which releases soluble inorganic phosphorus from inositol hexaphosphate (phytic acid) Interesting sideline related to this: Phytase has been used as a fish feed additive to make phosphorus sources stored in plant feedstock ingredients more available to the fishies. So, the soybean based fish feeds I ranted about earlier could benefit, or the fish would benefit, from such an additive. Later. Ted Manganese is next. When I was a kid I memorized the periodic table of elements. They made me do it. I couldn't regurgitate that now to save my life, onna counta my Mendeleev is not that good no more I mean my Memory is not that good anymore. I guess that means I am not consistent just periodic bada-boom Anyway, when I was a kid, I always remembered manganese onna counta it reminded me of "mangled knees". And I had some of those onna counta I was playing lotsa football some would say without a helmet .which explains a few things. . . | Message 50 Subject: Re: cut and snip From: "Robert Rogers" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 21:25:34 -0400 never knew there was and end key till now ----- Original Message ----- From: "kris book" Cc: Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 8:32 PM Subject: Re: cut and snip > To delete large messages just, press Ctrl+Shift+End at the same time, and > everything below your cursor will be highlighted. And then press the > Delete key. Everything below your cursor will instantly be deleted. > . . | Message 51 Subject: Conversion of BTU to Watts From: "Arlos" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:31:16 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. =_NextPart_000_001D_01C12C01.CB5ACEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few posts ago someone asked about converting BTU's to Watts??? any, = hope this helps. TO CONVERT INTO = MULTIPLE BY Watts Btu/hour = 3.4129 Watts Btu/ minute = 0.05688 Btu/hour Watts = 0.2931 Btu/minutes Kilowatts = 0.01757 Btu/mintues Watts = 17.57 Arlos =_NextPart_000_001D_01C12C01.CB5ACEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  A few posts ago someone asked = about=20 converting BTU's to Watts??? any, hope this helps .
 
TO=20 CONVERT           =             &= nbsp;  =20 INTO           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;  =20 MULTIPLE BY
 
Watts          = ;            =             &= nbsp;   =20 Btu/hour           = ;          =20 3.4129
Watts          = ;            =             &= nbsp;   =20 Btu/=20 minute           &= nbsp;    =20 0.05688
Btu/hour         &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p; =20 Watts           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;=20 0.2931
Btu/minutes         = ;            =          =20 Kilowatts          &nbs= p;        =20 0.01757
Btu/mintues         = ;            =          =20 Watts           &n= bsp;           =20 17.57
 
Arlos
=_NextPart_000_001D_01C12C01.CB5ACEC0-- . . | Message 52 Subject: Re: Bacteria Mediated Yada Yada in Aquaponic Media: Phosphorus From: "Robert Rogers" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 21:36:55 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "TGTX" Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 9:19 PM Subject: Bacteria Mediated Yada Yada in Aquaponic Media: Phosphorus > References: Microbial Ecology Fundamentals and Applications, by Atlas & > Bartha, and Introduction to Soil Microbiology by Alexander > > The Phosphorus Cycle Interesting reading Ted, makes my head spin, I dropped out of college when Hector was a pup. He's been dead 25 years. Keep up the good work. That ctrl shift end works great Bob . . | Message 53 Subject: Re: Bacteria Mediated Yada Yada in Aquaponic Media: Phosphorus From: "Arlos" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:51:44 -0700 Ted, Thanks, like being in school again. Arlos -----Original Message----- From: TGTX To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com Date: Thursday, August 23, 2001 6:25 PM Subject: Bacteria Mediated Yada Yada in Aquaponic Media: Phosphorus >References: Microbial Ecology Fundamentals and Applications, by Atlas & >Bartha, and Introduction to Soil Microbiology by Alexander > >The Phosphorus Cycle > >The biological availability of phosphorus is restricted by its tendency to >precipitate in the presence of bivalent metals (Ca2+, Mg2+) and ferric >(Fe+3) ions and neutral to alkaline pH. > >In a body of freshwater, such as a lake or a "res-a-vaah", heh,heh the >relatively large phosphorus "compartment" in the aquatic sediments is >recycled through the benthic biota and back and forth within the sediments >at relatively slower rates, compared with the relatively smaller >"compartment" of phosphorus in the water column itself, which is relatively >more rapidly recyled internally within the water column. Are you with me? >Inorganic phosphate, PO4, is highly soluble in the water but the organically >bound phosphorus is primarily in solid form in natural aquatic ecosystems >and is present pretty much as suspended particulate matter in the water >column, or as precipitated solids in the aquatic sediments. I hope some of >you have an apatite for this information .bada-boom, bada-bing > >Most phosphorus transformations mediated by microorganisms can be viewed as >transfers of inorganic to organic phosphorus, or as transfers of phosphorus >from insolumbed forms to soluble forms. It goes both ways, as they say. > >Here's some interesting stuff which I actually kinda remember from Wetzel's >Limnology text way back before Ned was a pup. The final product of >phosphate reduction by in soils and sediments would be phosphine (PH3). >Phosphine is volatile and spontaneously ignites in contact with oxygen, >producing a green glow. The production of phosphine is sometimes (thought >to be) observed near swamps where there is extensive decomposition of >organic matter. Such spontaneous combustion of phosphine can also ignite >the methane produced in similar environments, giving rise to ghostly light >phenomena. So, swamp haints on the prowl with bad gas. Gotta love it. > >Although phosphate can combine with calcium in the aquatic environment, >making it insoluble, some heterotrophic microorganisms are capable of >solubilizing phosphorus from such mineral preciptitates. While the >microorganism work on these mineral substrates to solublize phosphorus for >their own benefit, they also act to release it for use by other organisms, >such as our plant buddies. The mechanism of phosphorus solubilization is >normally by production of organic acids. > >Within soils, phosphorus also exists as insoluble iron, magnesium, and >aluminum salts. The mobilization of insoluble ferric phosphate may occur >when microorganisms reduce ferric to ferrous iron. > >Mineralization of organic phosphorus is a process catalyzed by phosphatase >enzymes, which are produced by many microorganisms. Some bacteria and fungi >produce phytase, which releases soluble inorganic phosphorus from inositol >hexaphosphate (phytic acid) > >Interesting sideline related to this: Phytase has been used as a fish feed >additive to make phosphorus sources stored in plant feedstock ingredients >more available to the fishies. So, the soybean based fish feeds I ranted >about earlier could benefit, or the fish would benefit, from such an >additive. > >Later. > >Ted > >Manganese is next. When I was a kid I memorized the periodic table of >elements. They made me do it. I couldn't regurgitate that now to save my >life, onna counta my Mendeleev is not that good no more I mean my Memory >is not that good anymore. >I guess that means I am not consistent just periodic bada-boom > >Anyway, when I was a kid, I always remembered manganese onna counta it >reminded me of "mangled knees". And I had some of those onna counta I was >playing lotsa football some would say without a helmet .which explains >a few things. > > > . . | Message 54 Subject: Re: Aquaponics profitability From: "Robert Rogers" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:04:34 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brett" Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 8:50 PM Subject: RE: Aquaponics profitability > > Thanks for the info Robert, > > Is your system completely recirculated? > > Do you use any supplemental nutrients for the plants? > > Thanks, > Brett Brett Think I addressed you as Gene earilier, I believe I read that S&S farms had grown basil in their system. perhaps we can get a little input from them. I know they sell their package, which I haven't purchased yet. I am wading through 1/2 dozen books right now. In Fla to get an exotic species permit you can discharge no waste water, if you have waste water you need permits, enviromental impact statements, etc. . . | Message 55 Subject: Re: Aquaponics profitability From: "Gene Batten" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:12:31 -0400 Bob, It sounds like you and I are at about the same "place" and are going through the same research process. Maybe we will get additional input that will be helpful. I grew up in Johnston county, not far from Rocky Mount. .Gene ----- Original Message ----- > Gene > My projection is from some numbers that I have pulled from > information from an established tilapia operation. I personally have no > experiance with raising fish for resale,only hobby. > The basil numbers come from recent real wholesale prices, and > production costs as projected by the university of florida, using straight > hydroponics. > As my earlier statements I have had no luck in obtaining numbers > from an operating "Aquaculture system" > I haven't established the amount/ Sq. ft of basil that can be > raised using fish effluent as the only nutrients for the greenhouse side of > the operation. > I am trying to come up with a business plan to decide if I > should invest my time and money, I am not trying to get money from outside > investers, so I must be convinced. > Using real #s that I can find,is the best that I can do. > As I also said before, my projections do not include any start > up costs, so those would have to be considered in the cost; debt service, > loss of interest/dividends on out of pocket spending, loss of spouse if you > go broke, etc > I am looking to set up in Fla., there are wholesale outlets for > basil, and fish processing plants that will purchase live fish. > I have only been working on this for about 3 months so am still > in the investigation stage. > As I get solid verifiable numbers I will share what I learn. > My father was from Rocky Mt. > Bob . . | Message 56 Subject: Re: Bacteria Mediated Yada Yada in Aquaponic Media: Phosphorus From: Arlus Farnsworth Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 19:47:49 -0700 This is great! I got half way through the iron and had to take a "grow some more braincells and/or reconfigure" break. Math makes the most sense and has exciting radical possibilities at the same time, but there is something alluring to the periodic table. I can almost see a three or four dimensional model based on valency that makes sense, but nothing has materialized yet. > Later. > > Ted > > Manganese is next. When I was a kid I memorized the periodic table of > elements. They made me do it. I couldn't regurgitate that now to save my > life, onna counta my Mendeleev is not that good no more I mean my Memory > is not that good anymore. > I guess that means I am not consistent just periodic bada-boom . . | Message 57 Subject: Notes From: Arlus Farnsworth Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:17:55 -0700 On the quote method: virtually all graphic interfaces (macintosh, windows, etc) have this capability: context (left click for pc's) hold and mouse move will select text. Use copy or delete as necessary for primitive or regressive/degenerate software solutions. Text based solutions are far superior in features but require more time to learn because a keyboard has more options than a mouse input. :q! With my compact fungi matrix with bacterial component fantasy filter scenario, most plants fit in one place if you notice. Other plants might flourish in other parts of the system depending on niche. Periodic dumps can be handled as water for fungus production or can be reclaimed using a passive solar still, the residue then scraped and used for fertilizer or biodigester elsewhere. Mushrooms have a high biological conversion rate, suggesting efficient labor, space and materials logistics. Hence profit. Some mushrooms command high market prices. Enough about mushrooms for this post. On television c-span channel as I type the conversation is nitrogen being released to the atmosphere as an overall product of wetland square footage. Certain ratio of nitrogen in soil = good for crops. Excess nitrogen in water = bad. Nitrogen in atmosphere = normal situation. The problem: How to maximize yield product without tipping overall balance. A note on purina (aquamax) feed . don't let it sit around in warm conditions for any length of time. I don't know, the feed turned rancid or something. Fish would not take it. Maybe refrigeration would help storage. Use it quick is probably best. One advantage to pellets is less mess and some fish prefer to feed off top floating feed, particularly salmonid. There are permaculture folks out there who already understand and have direct experience with a lot of what is coming up here now. . . | Message 58 Subject: From: "Marshall Janes" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:43:36 -0400 unsubscribe . . | Message 59 Subject: snip From: "STEVE SPRING" Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:38:50 -0500 Hey Mick, I thought that was a great idea. Just back up & hit delete. I did that and your entire message went into the "black hole". Oh well, I guess I need to try that again. But, you are right, I was kind of depressed .but I don't know what I would do if I didn't have this to play with. Just got an email from Bruce today about a catfish that will grow to several tons within just a few months. Got to try this guy. All of the mentioned was "tongue in cheek" but I'm always game to try something different. I'm still going to try the Pacu. They really interest me. Your statement about what the gentleman told you is so correct. Find something that you like to do & do it well. That's kind of what I'm doing. You mentioned $10K invested. Well, I'm about $30K invested .QUIT .NEVER!! Piss & moan, always!! Later my friend .Steve (Truly hope to see you in NC) . . | Message 60 Subject: Re: Bacteria Mediated Geochemistry in Aquaponic Media: Iron From: Arlus Farnsworth Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 21:55:37 -0700 You mentioned ferrous hydroxide in the previous about sulfer and anaerobic corrosion of iron. And here: "Ferric iron precipitates in alkaline environments as ferric hydroxide." Are these the same compound?

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