Aquaponics Digest - Wed 10/17/01


Message   1: Re: using human waste fertilizer
             from conrad wilkins 

Message   2: RE: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message   3: RE: pfiesteria
             from "Mark Allen Wells" 

Message   4: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
             from Birdnest5@aol.com

Message   5: Re: Toxic Plastics in Horticulture
             from "gutierrez-lagatta" 

Message   6: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
             from  (Bruce Schreiber)

Message   7: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
             from Mick 

Message   8: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
             from "bennett" 

Message   9: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
             from Mick 

Message  10: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
             from "Lloyd R. Prentice" 

Message  11: heat in the tank
             from "Steven Medlock" 

Message  12: Re: heat in the tank
             from "Brent Bingham" 

Message  13: Re: heat in the tank
             from kris book 

Message  14: LEDs
             from Kevin Rhoades 

Message  15: Re: LEDs
             from kris book 

Message  16: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
             from Mick 

Message  17: Re: Kudos to Don Bailey - Nice Website
             from "STEVE SPRING" 

Message  18: Re: comments & questions from a newbie lurker
             from "STEVE SPRING" 

Message  19: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
             from "STEVE SPRING" 

Message  20: Re: pfiesteria
             from conrad wilkins 


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| Message 1                                                           |
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Subject: Re: using human waste fertilizer
From:    conrad wilkins 
Date:    Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:15:28 -0500

In that perspective    YUP Id agree.

Relieved Conrad : )

Mark Lum wrote:

> I had asked about the nutrient content of human urine, thinking of it as a
> nutrient source for plants. I had spawned someconfusion because I had so
> many questions on disparate topics all lumped together in my original post.
> Is for using human urine, I was thinking of predominantly third world
> nations, or other places where sewage treatment is lacking, as is available
> fertilizer (but, hey, everybody pees on a regular basis).  Or in a domestic
> greywater/urinal effluent utilization system.   I was imagining just a
> hydroponic/biofilter, with no fish component, just plants.  Urine is
> sterile, so harmful microorganisms shouldn't be a problem.  I thought that
> something like that kang kong that (from what I gather) grows very fast.  It
> could be used for animal feed or even just compost.  The nutrient input is
> free.
>
> You know how a large part of vitamin suplement pill gets excreted allegedly?
>   Does that mean that human urine (at least from vitamin eaters) contains
> all sorts chelated minerals and vitamins for the plants??
> -Mark
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at 



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| Message 2                                                           |
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Subject: RE: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:31:08 -0500

Gang,
I have several hundred pounds of fresh produce and veggies given to me almost weekly.  Is it
possible that Tilapia will eat this with or instead of commercial feed?

Bob Bird
---
Bob,

I don't know about tilapia but some species of carp sure would.
This country has a thing about carp but in much of asia it is
the most widely eaten fish....just food for thought.

mark



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| Message 3                                                           |
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Subject: RE: pfiesteria
From:    "Mark Allen Wells" 
Date:    Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:45:14 -0500


     I am not an alarmist in the least, but anyone working around fish
should inform themselves about any pathogens that can do them or their
families harm.
   pfiesteria piscicda is a bad actor and comes into play in water that has
a lot of nutrients,like we might find in a closed system.
www.mdsg.umd.edu/pfiesteria/
www.pfiesteria.org/pfiesteria/pfiesteria.html
www.epa.gov/owow/estuaries/pfiesteria/fact.html#6

----
Robert,

This is why our good (and very knowledgable) friend, Arlos was an advocate
of things like UV and ozone in closed loop systems. Thanks for the links.
Having worked in municipal wastewater treatment many years ago, I appreciate
being reminded of the unseen potential dangers that we often overlook.

Mark





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| Message 4                                                           |
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Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED
From:    Birdnest5@aol.com
Date:    Wed, 17 Oct 2001 01:54:41 EDT


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In a message dated 10/17/2001 1:32:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
 writes:


> This country has a thing about carp but in much of asia it is
> 

Mark,
Yea, but I don't live and "greenhouse" in Asia!  I've caught carp before, and 
you're right:  we do have a "thing about carp..."  Because the Tilapia are 
herbavores, and they enjoy eating the cuttings from the beds - I thought they 
might enjoy certain raw, unprocessed produce/veggies.  

I juice carrots, and the carrot "tailings" I think would be perfect... yes?  
By the way, has anyone ever tried growing carrots in  these systems, (indoor, 
S&S).

Bob

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In a message dated 10/17/2001 1:32:08 AM Eastern
Daylight Time,  writes:



This country has a thing about carp but in much of asia it is
the most widely eaten fish....


Mark,
Yea, but I don't live and "greenhouse" in Asia!  I've caught carp before, and you're right:  we do have a "thing about carp..."  Because the Tilapia are herbavores, and they enjoy eating the cuttings from the beds - I thought they might enjoy certain raw, unprocessed produce/veggies.  

I juice carrots, and the carrot "tailings" I think would be perfect... yes?  By the way, has anyone ever tried growing carrots in  these systems, (indoor, S&S).

Bob
--part1_11c.6051101.28fe7721_boundary-- .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 5 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: Toxic Plastics in Horticulture From: "gutierrez-lagatta" Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:43:04 -0500 It certainly is. > Is that the Gordon Creaser that will be at the NC course next month? Adriana .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 6 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED From: (Bruce Schreiber) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:04:28 -0500 (CDT) yes Tilapia and pacu will eat that and lawn clippings too Bruce .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 7 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED From: Mick Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:47:40 -0500 Birdnest5@aol.com wrote: > > Gang, > I have several hundred pounds of fresh produce and veggies given to me > almost weekly. Is it possible that Tilapia will eat this with or > instead of commercial feed? > > Bob Bird ------------------------------------------------------------------------ My tilapia readily eat lettuce, green bean plants and most leafy vegetables. Here's a tip for making tilapia food from produce: Put whatever you've decided to try feeding them in a blender with a little water. Blend it down. Not far enough to totally liquify but far enough to reduce the chunk sizes to about the half the size of a pea. Pour this substance in ice-cube trays. The trays that make mini ice-cubes work best. Freeze until solid. I make a week's worth of food at a time. Freezing allows your food to float in the tank. Floating food, in my opinion, is the best way to go. Much less fouling of the tank and you can easily see if they will eat the food or not. My tilapia seem to grow faster with a diet that has at least five percent protein. If the plants you are feeding them don't provide the protein, add the protein source to the blender mix. Some sources of protein that I've used: frozen blood worms, whole eggs, brine shrimp from my hatchery or bought frozen, cooked chicken pieces. Fry require a much higher percentage of protein than adults as is evidenced in the fact they will cannibalize smaller fry if they don't get the protein in their diet. Since I started making my own fry food, I lose very few to cannibalism. Good luck, Mick .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 8 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED From: "bennett" Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:55:19 -0400 >protein that I've used: frozen blood worms, whole eggs, brine shrimp >from my hatchery or bought frozen, cooked chicken pieces. > Do you cook the eggs? Do you put shells and all in the blender? .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 9 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED From: Mick Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:07:21 -0500 bennett wrote: > > Do you cook the eggs? Do you put shells and all in the blender? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ No, the shells go into the compost pile. It would be prudent to cook the eggs. These eggs and the chicken protein come from free-range chickens I raise. I know what the food chain has been from egg to adult chicken and I know how they've been handled, I'm more confident about using these raw eggs than I would be about uncooked eggs from a commercial source, but to be safe, you can boil the eggs you add to the blender mixture. Mick .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 10 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED From: "Lloyd R. Prentice" Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:28:45 -0400 Hi, Mick Mick wrote: > Fry require a much higher percentage of protein than adults as is > evidenced in the fact they will cannibalize smaller fry if they don't > get the protein in their diet. Since I started making my own fry food, > I lose very few to cannibalism. Are your breeders producing all of your fry? How did you obtain your breeding pairs? Best wishes, Lloyd R. Prentice .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 11 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: heat in the tank From: "Steven Medlock" Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:23:26 -0500 I am just about ready to set up my boiler and radiators for heat in the greenhouse. I was told that I can't use copper in the fish tank with hot water running through it because of toxic problems. How about aluminum? Stainless is usable? any other ideas? no reason not to use the system as a double heater. One more question what is a good grow light and how long a day to use them. going into winter, I know that it needs to be done. I am growing tomatoes. Thanks, Steve (red) .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 12 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: heat in the tank From: "Brent Bingham" Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:23:28 -0700 We use black poly with a hydronic mixing valve, connected to an immersion remote bulb line voltage thermostat, that controles a small hot water pump. 1000' of the poly was less than the lowest cost heat exchanger we could price. Even if the power to the main tank circulation pumps goes out the tanks keep warm because the 1/25 hp pump and hydronic heating system are on the power back up with the boilers. We keep the poly near the bottom of the tanks anchored to small bricks. The heat rises up to the wet bulb and shuts of the small pump. Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Medlock" Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 2:23 PM Subject: heat in the tank > I am just about ready to set up my boiler and radiators for heat in the > greenhouse. I was told that I can't use copper in the fish tank with hot > water running through it because of toxic problems. How about aluminum? > Stainless is usable? any other ideas? no reason not to use the system as a > double heater. > > One more question what is a good grow light and how long a day to use > them. going into winter, I know that it needs to be done. I am growing > tomatoes. > Thanks, > Steve (red) > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 13 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: heat in the tank From: kris book Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:30:21 -0600 Steve, I've never priced stainless tubing but, even if it's on the high end, it makes sense to be sure of every element in that tank with your fish. As a beginner in the grow-light game, you'll do fine with a phosphorous coated halide, it is a good all around bulb. If you're growing plants that are harvested when the days get shorter, then changing to a sodium bulb will add greatly to your harvest. There is a conversion system that allows you to just change bulbs from halide to sodium, otherwise halides and sodium bulbs are not interchangeable. As for light requirements the easiest way to explain it is, just maintain the same day length as the first day of fall(Sept.22 or 23, I forget). If memory serves correctly, that's a little more than 11 hours in our latitudes here. Plants are really not aware of how long their day period is, they only register the length of the longest dark period they experience in each light/dark period(usually 24 hours). I'm mentioning this so you'll understand that if you ever get a real bad cold spell, you can leave your lights on 24 hours a day for a few days if you need the extra heat that the lights produce. Your plants won't know if they've been awake for one day or two or whatever, just be sure to return them to their regular sleep cycle when the cold spell finishes. You can conserve electricity on nice sunny days in winter. Since plants only register that longest dark period each day, you could just turn on the lights for 5 minutes at the end of their regular cycle and the plants will register that 2 or 3 hour dark period as a time when the sun was behind a cloud. Remember though, that every plant has a minimum amount of light each day necessary for growth. So on stormy days, you will want to start your lights when the sun is still up. kris On Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:23:26 -0500 "Steven Medlock" writes: > I am just about ready to set up my boiler and radiators for heat in > the > greenhouse. I was told that I can't use copper in the fish tank > with hot > water running through it because of toxic problems. How about > aluminum? > Stainless is usable? any other ideas? no reason not to use the > system as a > double heater. > > One more question what is a good grow light and how long a day to > use > them. going into winter, I know that it needs to be done. I am > growing > tomatoes. > Thanks, > Steve (red) > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 14 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: LEDs From: Kevin Rhoades Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:59:55 -0700 On the topic of using LEDs for growing plants, has anyone looked at the new LED stop lights on buses, trucks (18 wheelers), and trailers? They are red and very bright. I wonder if they are in the right spectrum for plants (660nm I believe it was). ...K.R... .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 15 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: LEDs From: kris book Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:47:48 -0600 The L.E.D.s used in the Nasa growing experiments for the Mars mission are red. If I remember correctly they tried both white and red, with red doing the best. k On Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:59:55 -0700 Kevin Rhoades writes: > On the topic of using LEDs for growing plants, has anyone looked at > the new > LED stop lights on buses, trucks (18 wheelers), and trailers? They > are red > and very bright. I wonder if they are in the right spectrum for > plants > (660nm I believe it was). > > ...K.R... > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 16 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED From: Mick Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:12:44 -0500 > > Are your breeders producing all of your fry? > > How did you obtain your breeding pairs? > > Best wishes, > > Lloyd R. Prentice ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yes, (to the first question) but it is not the most economical way to go for small to medium operations. It affords us self-sufficiency, which I do strive for, but the cost in terms of initial hardware and breeding colony price is prohibitive for less than commercial operations. In addition, we easily spend three times the amount of work hours on the breeding colonies compared to what we spend on the growout population. We obtained black T. hornarium supermales and orange mossambicus females from a breeder in Florida. (I'll post the name to you privately if you like. I don't wish to violate Paula's rules about advertising on this list.) The offspring of this cross is all male which eliminates any breeding activity in the growout tank, which is desirable for good growth rates. Breeding tilapia grow at a greatly reduced rate. There are types of tilapia that grow faster but this type was the best I could find that didn't require the addition of hormones to keep the population all male. I've found four stages in the tilapia life-cycle that each require a different diet for optimal health and growth. If you order fingerlings from a reputable breeder, you'll only need to know two diets.. one for fingerling size and one for growout. For anyone interested in raising tilapia from their own breeding colonies, I stole an interesting post about diet at the larval stage from Steve Watts on the tilapia newsgroup and will repost it below: Mick ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Is it common to have 20% runts? No. The occurrence of runts usually has to do with one of two things, genetics or nutrition. Obviously, inbred populations will have a higher percentage of runts that non-inbred populations. However, the most common factor that affects growth is early nutrition. O. niloticus, and I would guess that the other species as well, have a larval stage that is present from hatch to approximately 12 days post fertilization (9 days post hatch). These days are based on 28 C culture temperature. For the first 3 to 4 days after hatch, larvae do not feed. During the feeding phase of the larval stage (starting at day 7 to 8 post fertilization; we generally refer to this stage as swim-up, whereas most of the yolk sac has been used and the larvae are quite buoyant) it is important that the larvae generally eat a live diet, usually zooplankton. Ultrastructure analysis of the teeth of these feeding larvae shows large pointed teeth in the throat that point towards the esophagus, characteristic of a carnivorous predator that uses sight feeding mechanisms to grasp prey so that the prey can't escape. These teeth are not designed to grind algae, making suspended algae a poor food source (niloticus does not have the ability to digest unicellular algae until after the completion of the larval phase....they can't produce the acid in the gut necessary to break the cell walls of the algae, even though algae can be found in the gut at that time). At day 12 the larval phase is complete and the gut has developed sufficiently that alternative foods (algae, formulated diets) can be digested, absorbed and assimilated. If an inappropriate food source is fed to the larvae (such as most formulated feeds) or the larvae is starved the gut WILL NOT develop properly and growth will be stunted. How do you prevent this problem? Make sure your new fry have a zooplanton source for the first four or five days of feeding. We use Artemia stage I larvae, but if your fry are in a greenwater system that has plenty of naturally-occurring zooplantkon (rotifers, copepods, etc) you should be ok. The biggest mistake occurs when you feed a formulated diet too early....they just can't handle it well and growth is compromised. Will they live....sure....will they grow....yes, but not maximally. Sorry for the technical answer but perhaps it may help. There are some producers out there that can verify this information as well. Steve Watts .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 17 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: Kudos to Don Bailey - Nice Website From: "STEVE SPRING" Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:09:19 -0500 Did I miss something? Could someone email me the address of this website? Pls. email to: careplus22. so I can find it at work. If a website like this exists, I would like to submit some photos. Thanks......Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie Shultz" Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 12:55 PM Subject: Kudos to Don Bailey - Nice Website Everyone should check out the new website Don Bailey built with information about our summer website. Even if you don't plan to attend, the site is FULL of great aquaponic photos! Thanks Don! Hope to see a few of you next summer. Charlie Shultz UVI- St. Croix <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: UVI Aquaponics Short Course From: Donald Bailey Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:26:45 -0400 The UVI Tilapia Aquaculture and Aquaponics Short Course is scheduled for June 23-29, 2002. The following link will take you to the site with information on the class and a registration form. http://rps.uvi.edu/AES/Aquaculture/UVIShortCourse.html Be sure to follow the "Topics" link to 20 pages of course information. .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 18 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: comments & questions from a newbie lurker From: "STEVE SPRING" Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:25:33 -0500 Hi Mark Wells, Don't want to step on the other Mark's toes, but we have spoken before so I hope he doesn't mind.. Mark is very happy with the hybrid bluegills that he gets & that is wonderful. I thought about buying from his supplier. Because he is close...Indiana. But, by the time that I put in my travel time (gas, time, etc. not to mention the cost of the bluegill hybrids), I figured that I could buy from Ken's cheaper. I also asked Mark if his supplier had ever won any awards for a world class hybrid. He said that his supplier had not, but his supplier supplied ponds throughout Indiana and all were happy with his product. I don't have one single bluegill in my inventory. The catfish ate them all. Now, Mark has experience in this area and he is happy with his supplier. I, however, have faith in my friend Ken in Ga. I will be stocking my pond with Ken's fingerlings in the spring. So there, you have it. One betting on past experience and One betting on blind faith. Go for it. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Allen Wells" Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 8:30 AM Subject: RE: comments & questions from a newbie lurker So, where can I buy some of these sunfish/bluegill hybrids? --- Hi Mark, I also like the hybrid bluegill...they are easy for me to get. Here in Indiana, the hatcheries make their rounds every month to farm and fleet stores all over the state. They come around in a special truck and usually have minnows, channel cats, striped bass ...as well as the hybrid bluegill. Make some phone calls. Also, check out www.aquanic.org ...you should be able to track sources in your area. I try to avoid getting fish that have had to travel too far because of losses. The best source of duckweed is ponds in your area where it is growing. Aquatic plant suppliers should have it too though. For general info check out .. http://www.mobot.org/jwcross/duckweed/ I would write more but have to run.....peace, mark .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 19 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED From: "STEVE SPRING" Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:27:55 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C15741.D22C64A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think I just asked this same question. Come on all of you guru's. Steve ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Birdnest5@aol.com=20 To: aquaponics@townsqr.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 7:34 PM Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE FEED Gang,=20 I have several hundred pounds of fresh produce and veggies given to me = almost weekly. Is it possible that Tilapia will eat this with or = instead of commercial feed?=20 Bob Bird=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C15741.D22C64A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think I just asked this same = question. Come on=20 all of you guru's.
 
Steve
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Birdnest5@aol.com
To: aquaponics@townsqr.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 = 7:34=20 PM
Subject: Re: VEGGIE AND PRODUCE = FEED

Gang,
I = have=20 several hundred pounds of fresh produce and veggies given to me almost = weekly.=20  Is it possible that Tilapia will eat this with or = instead=20 of commercial feed?

Bob Bird
=
------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C15741.D22C64A0-- .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. | Message 20 | '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' Subject: Re: pfiesteria From: conrad wilkins Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:45:59 -0500 Mark Do you or anyone else use UV or ozone in your systems. If so how?? cheers Conrad. Mark Allen Wells wrote: > Robert, > > This is why our good (and very knowledgable) friend, Arlos was an advocate > of things like UV and ozone in closed loop systems. Thanks for the links. > Having worked in municipal wastewater treatment many years ago, I appreciate > being reminded of the unseen potential dangers that we often overlook. > > Mark

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