Aquaponics Digest - Fri 09/07/01
Message 1: Re: Please Help
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 2: Re: Please Help
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 3: Re: Please Help
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 4: Re: Please Help
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 5: Re: Please Help
from "STEVE SPRING"
Message 6: Don't through out the gold to save the silver
from "Thomas Short"
Message 7: algae
from "Chris Jeppesen"
Message 8: Re: algae
from James Robert Igou
Message 9: Fwd. from "Steve Diver-ATTRA" The
use of ozone in a high density recirculation system for rotifers
from S & S Aqua Farm
Message 10: Re: algae
from "Chris Jeppesen"
Message 11: Re: just ignore my pot!!!
from Carolyn Hoagland
Message 12: retention time in inclined plate separators
from Carolyn Hoagland
Message 13: Re: boiler heat
from "Brent Bingham"
Message 14: Re: boiler heat
from "Brent Bingham"
Message 15: Re: heat exchangers and collectors
from "Brent Bingham"
Message 16: Re: heat exchangers and collectors
from "Brent Bingham"
Message 17: Re: boiler heat
from kris book
Message 18: Re: boiler heat
from "Brent Bingham"
Message 19: Re: Please Help
from "Louis N. Scerbo"
Message 20: Re: Please Help
from "Louis N. Scerbo"
Message 21: Re: Please Help
from "Thomas Short"
Message 22: Re: Please Help
from "Thomas Short"
Message 23: Copper and Oil and Our Lovely OPEC Friends
from "TGTX"
| Message 1
Subject: Re: Please Help
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:09:01 -0500
Hope Not! Lou could be Bubba's prom date!!
SS
----- Original Message -----
From: "gerry magnuson"
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: Please Help
do I smell burning weeds?
>From: "Louis N. Scerbo"
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>Subject: Please Help
>Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 23:16:14 -0400
>
> I would like to try to set up a system in my basement. The reason I
>want to do it in my basement is I feel even though it will cost me much
>more money for Lighting ie: metal halide and high pressure sodium, as a
>first system it will be cheaper than a greenhouse with heating.
> I live in Northeastern Pennsylvania so I'd need supplemental
>lighting in the winter anyway.
> I plan a system with a 300 gal. round tank, PolyTank, PT-6530, with
>one each 1000W metal halide and 1000W high pressure sodium.
> How many fish and PD-4902 PolyTank trays should I use?
> What about the humidity issue?
>
>Thank you all in advance for your help,
>Lou
>
| Message 2
Subject: Re: Please Help
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:12:40 -0500
This is exactly what I do with my system. Works great. Doesn't even have to
be a heavy-duty humidifier. A good one will work just fine.
SS
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: Please Help
go to http://www.heatpipe.com they sell high performance dehumidifiers.
Instead of putting the water down the drain, you can have the dehumidifier
dump the water back in the fish tank.
-_______________
Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)
NEC America, Inc.
14040 Park Center Dr.
Herndon, VA 20171-3227
Voice: 703-834-4273
Fax: 703-787-6613
This message and any attachment are confidential. If you are not the
intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete the
message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended
recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the
contents to any other person.
| Message 3
Subject: Re: Please Help
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:19:36 -0500
Lou,
Don't get your feelings hurt. This is a WIDE OPEN list. It is not for the
"thin skinned"
.I even have the title of being "socially insensitive", but
I do have one heluva sense of humor. I don't believe the gentleman making
the post was being insensitive, he was just expressing his opinion.
Hang in there and get used to us before you bail out.
SS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Louis N. Scerbo"
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: Please Help
Gerry
I must tell you that was a low shot. I know what you mean. and invite
anyone to come and check.
As a new subscriber to the list I hope you all are not like this.
My question was sincere. I have retired recently and have moved to PA
where I've purchased 16 acres where I hope to do all the things ie:
gardening, small scale husbandry, etc.
If you all don't want to help a guy just starting out just ignore my pot!!!!
Lou
gerry magnuson wrote:
> do I smell burning weeds?
>
>
>> From: "Louis N. Scerbo"
>> Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>> Subject: Please Help
>> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 23:16:14 -0400
>>
>> I would like to try to set up a system in my basement. The reason I
>> want to do it in my basement is I feel even though it will cost me much
>> more money for Lighting ie: metal halide and high pressure sodium, as a
>> first system it will be cheaper than a greenhouse with heating.
>> I live in Northeastern Pennsylvania so I'd need supplemental
>> lighting in the winter anyway.
>> I plan a system with a 300 gal. round tank, PolyTank, PT-6530, with
>> one each 1000W metal halide and 1000W high pressure sodium.
>> How many fish and PD-4902 PolyTank trays should I use?
>> What about the humidity issue?
>>
>> Thank you all in advance for your help,
>> Lou
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| Message 4
Subject: Re: Please Help
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:26:15 -0500
Hi Andrei & Louis,
Ref the below: I think that 200 fish 'at' 2#/ea in a 300 gal system is WAY too
much. I'm thinking of more like 75 fish 'at' 2#/ea for a 300 gal system
e.g.
1/2#/gal. I'm just coming off a very busy double shift, but I think my math
is correct.
SS
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: Please Help
Louis,
at full grown size you should have about 150-200 fish (weight 1.5 to 2
pounds) in a 300 gallon tank.
"Louis N. Scerbo"
To:
aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Sent by: cc:
aquaponics-request 'at' t Subject: Re: Please Help
ownsqr.com
09/06/01 02:35 PM
Please respond to
aquaponics
Thanks Andrei,
I've already done everything you suggested
The blueboard,ligt color and all.
I would like a little more specific info on how many fish to edible size
can I expect. How many trays can a 300 gal tank handle. I'd like to grow
tomatoes, greens, broccoli to start.
Lou
Andrei Calciu wrote:
>go to http://www.heatpipe.com they sell high performance dehumidifiers.
>Instead of putting the water down the drain, you can have the dehumidifier
>dump the water back in the fish tank.
>
>You may also want to consider painting your basement in the brightest
white
>color you can find and possibly installing drywall (the humidity resistant
>kind used in bathrooms - called blueboard, I think) on the ceiling of your
>basement. This will keep the humidity from migrating upwards toward the
>living space. Use oil based paints (they do not allow humidity to be
>absorbed into the drywall. Coupled with a high performance dehumidifier,
>you should be sitting in butter after that.
>
>-_______________
>Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)
>NEC America, Inc.
>14040 Park Center Dr.
>Herndon, VA 20171-3227
>
>Voice: 703-834-4273
>Fax: 703-787-6613
>
>This message and any attachment are confidential. If you are not the
>intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete the
>message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended
>recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the
>contents to any other person.
>
>
>
| Message 5
Subject: Re: Please Help
From: "STEVE SPRING"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:31:06 -0500
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
=_NextPart_000_0040_01C13734.61E96F80
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dawn,
Sounds like you did the same as I did. I set up my system in an outside =
insulated (that we insulated). garage. I think that we have to compare =
notes sometime. Contact me off list if you wish. I am Steve 'at' =.
SS
----- Original Message -----=20
From: BMac1978=20
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com=20
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: Please Help
In a message dated 9/6/2001 1:24:31 PM Central Daylight Time, =
=20
writes:=20
I must tell you that was a low shot. I know what you mean. and =
invite=20
anyone to come and check.=20
As a new subscriber to the list I hope you all are not like this.=20
My question was sincere. I have retired recently and have moved to =
PA=20
where I've purchased 16 acres where I hope to do all the things ie:=20
gardening, small scale husbandry, etc.=20
If you all don't want to help a guy just starting out just ignore my =
pot!!!!=20
Lou=20
Lou,=20
I am also new, and I have to say that this group is very informative, =
but=20
they like to have fun too! Don't take anything like that to heart, if =
it=20
bothers you, just assume that it was him that was wishing it he =
could!!! (ha,=20
ha) You've got to admit guys, we have some great personalities =
here!=20
Everything in the news group can help you, and the rest you've just =
got to=20
not worry about it! I too considered my basement, but my computer is =
down=20
there and I didn't want to chance messing that up! Fortunately, I =
have=20
another option and have decided to set up in our attached garage that =
is=20
insulated.=20
Anyway, I think it was meant as a joke, and if it wasn't, go ahead =
and take=20
it as so, no reason to ruin your day over it!=20
Keep us posted, it sounds like your goals are similar to mine.=20
Warmly,=20
Dawn=20
Michigan=20
=_NextPart_000_0040_01C13734.61E96F80
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dawn,
Sounds like you did the same as I did. =
I set up my=20
system in an outside insulated (that we insulated). garage. I think that =
we have=20
to compare notes sometime. Contact me off list if you wish. I am Steve 'at' =
. =
SS
----- Original Message -----
From:=20
BMac1978=20
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Sent: Thursday, September 06, =
2001 4:36=20
PM
Subject: Re: Please Help
In a message dated 9/6/2001 1:24:31 PM =
Central=20
Daylight Time, =20
writes:
I must tell you that was a low shot. I know what you =
mean. and=20
invite
anyone to come and check.
As a new subscriber to the =
list I=20
hope you all are not like this.
My question was sincere. I have =
retired=20
recently and have moved to PA
where I've purchased 16 acres =
where I hope=20
to do all the things ie:
gardening, small scale husbandry, etc. =
If=20
you all don't want to help a guy just starting out just ignore my =
pot!!!!=20
Lou
Lou,=20
I am also new, and I have to say that this group is very=20
informative, but
they like to have fun too! Don't take =
anything like=20
that to heart, if it
bothers you, just assume that it was him that =
was=20
wishing it he could!!! (ha,
ha) You've got to =
admit=20
guys, we have some great personalities here!
Everything in the =
news group=20
can help you, and the rest you've just got to
not worry about it! =
I=20
too considered my basement, but my computer is down
there and I =
didn't=20
want to chance messing that up! Fortunately, I have
another =
option=20
and have decided to set up in our attached garage that is =
insulated.=20
Anyway, I think it was meant as a joke, and if it wasn't, go =
ahead=20
and take
it as so, no reason to ruin your day over it! =
Keep us=20
posted, it sounds like your goals are similar to mine.
Warmly, =
Dawn
Michigan
=_NextPart_000_0040_01C13734.61E96F80--
| Message 6
Subject: Don't through out the gold to save the silver
From: "Thomas Short"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:51:37 -0700
=_NextPart_001_0004_01C13737.3F92D180
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Like some of you I am new to this. I have been searching the net trying t=
o find a way to control algae. I came on this site.
http://www.spirulinasource.com/earthfood.html
check it out no the top click on "Book Online" after reading it I think m=
aybe the algae may be worth more than the fish!
Also look at these:
http://www.spirulinasource.com/microjourdan.html
http://www.spirulinasource.com/microcalamand.html
Read the book on line or order it from amazon.com it cost about $14
I tried to print it but ran out of paper (LONG!)Get more from the Web. F=
REE MSN Explorer download :
=_NextPart_001_0004_01C13737.3F92D180
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Like some of y=
ou I am new to this. I have been searching the net trying to find a way t=
o control algae. I came on this site. check it =
out no the top click on "Book Online" after reading it I=
think maybe the algae may be worth more than the fish! Also l=
ook at these: Read the book on line or order it from amazon.com it=
cost about $14 I tried to print it but ran out of paper (LONG=
!)
Get more from the Web. =
FREE MSN Explorer download : http://=
explorer.msn.com
=_NextPart_001_0004_01C13737.3F92D180--
| Message 7
Subject: algae
From: "Chris Jeppesen"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 05:26:51 -0700
over the last 8 eight months we've had several discustions on or about algae. The one thing
I've done to control it is to cover my irrigation distribution pipes with half of a 1 1/2" abs
black pipe to keep the algae from blocking the holes.
however the question keeps coming back to me, what causes it. In my weak little demented mind
it seems like when I have enough good healthy plants growing in the system I don't have an
algae problem. and when I over haul or tear out to many old large plants and have to much area
in seed and seedlings I have an algae problem.
So what I'm saying or asking is, is algae manageable simply by manageing are total nitrogen.
just foder for thought.
Chris Jeppesen
> "Thomas Short" "tilapia" , "aquaponics"
Don't through out the gold to save the silverDate: Fri, 7 Sep 2001
00:51:37 -0700
>Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>
>Like some of you I am new to this. I have been searching the net trying to find a way to
control algae. I came on this site.
>
> http://www.spirulinasource.com/earthfood.html
>
>check it out no the top click on "Book Online" after reading it I think maybe the algae may be
worth more than the fish!
>Also look at these:
>
>http://www.spirulinasource.com/microjourdan.html
>http://www.spirulinasource.com/microcalamand.html
>
>Read the book on line or order it from amazon.com it cost about $14
>I tried to print it but ran out of paper (LONG!)Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer
download :
>
><< msg2.html >>
| Message 8
Subject: Re: algae
From: James Robert Igou
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:58:17 -0400 (EDT)
Interesting idea! However, algae requires very little nitrogen to grow.
Algal growth occurs in water with far lower nitrogen content then that
with which we water our plants. Further, algae is present in
virtually all environments and appears to spread via wind or
water. Virtually any standing water exposed to some sun will eventually
develop algal growth. Therefore, you assumption (while it has a good
logical basis) is flawed.
I have two questions. Is your algae problem in your culture tanks
or is it in your beds? Personally, I don't have a significant problem with
algae in my tanks because my tanks are in a seperate area that only has a
small amount of artificial light. However, in previous systems I've built
within greenhouses the tilapia themselves did a good good of algae
control by eating most of it. This, of course, is not a good solution as
tilapia that eat significant quantities of algae develop an off-flavor. As
to problems within the beds and pipes of an aquaponic system I've seen
very few cases where this was a problem. Algae on the top of a growing
medium is common in many forms of hydroponics. The algae uses very little
nutient and rarely penetrates farther than where it can obtain sunlight.
The biggest problem with algal growth within plant beds is that it
encourages the development of fungus gnats which are a vector for plant
pathogens. Algae within pipes can be limited by covering the piping and/or
by regular disassembly and cleaning. However, in three years of constant
production the only parts of my system I've ever disassembled for cleaning
have been the 1" lines I've got feeding each bed.
A few final questions. Do you think your problem could be due to
an extreme excess of nitrogen promoting an explosive growth of algae? Do
you test your tank water for nitrite, nitrate, and ammonia? I keep a
record of these measurements as an indicator of how well my plant beds are
funtioning. The bacterial colonies within the beds should, if healthy, be
converting your culture tank's water ammonia content into nitrite and
then to nitrate. Plants utilize ammonia directly and nitrate directly. Any
spike in nitrite levels indicates a problem with your bed's bacterial
population. Additionally, high ammonia levels are toxic to fish and high
nitrite levels prevent the fish from obtaining oxygen from the water
(causing a brown coloration to the gills, stressing the fish, and
eventually either killing them or encouraging disease). So, the
question is just how high are your nitrogen levels?
One thing I've been surprised to learn while using system's based
on Tom and Paula's designs is how low the real nitrogen requirements are
for some plants. By carefully selecting what to grow and adjusting how
much you grow you can lower you TAN levels and reduce the algal growth
rate as well as promote a healthier environment for your fish. System
design changes (such as those I've mentioned) can help as well. Finally, I
can't stress enough the need to take water quality measurements
and maintain good records of everything you do with your system. These
records will allow you to analyse your progress and will help you
uncover areas where your system can be improved. Good luck.
Jim
On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Chris Jeppesen wrote:
> over the last 8 eight months we've had several discustions on or about algae. The one thing
I've done to control it is to cover my irrigation distribution pipes with half of a 1 1/2" abs
black pipe to keep the algae from blocking the holes.
>
> however the question keeps coming back to me, what causes it. In my weak little demented mind
it seems like when I have enough good healthy plants growing in the system I don't have an
algae problem. and when I over haul or tear out to many old large plants and have to much area
in seed and seedlings I have an algae problem.
> So what I'm saying or asking is, is algae manageable simply by manageing are total nitrogen.
>
> just foder for thought.
> Chris Jeppesen
>
> > "Thomas Short" "tilapia" , "aquaponics"
Don't through out the gold to save the silverDate: Fri, 7 Sep 2001
00:51:37 -0700
> >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> >
> >Like some of you I am new to this. I have been searching the net trying to find a way to
control algae. I came on this site.
> >
> > http://www.spirulinasource.com/earthfood.html
> >
> >check it out no the top click on "Book Online" after reading it I think maybe the algae may
be worth more than the fish!
> >Also look at these:
> >
> >http://www.spirulinasource.com/microjourdan.html
> >http://www.spirulinasource.com/microcalamand.html
> >
> >Read the book on line or order it from amazon.com it cost about $14
> >I tried to print it but ran out of paper (LONG!)Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer
download :
> >
> ><< msg2.html >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
| Message 9
Subject: Fwd. from "Steve Diver-ATTRA" The
use of ozone in a high density recirculation system for rotifers
From: S & S Aqua Farm
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 09:52:25 -0500
ContentsDirect from Elsevier Science
Aquaculture, Vol. 201 (1-2) (2001) pp. 35-49
c 2001 Elsevier Science B.V. All rights reserved.
Visit the journal at http://www.elsevier.nl/locate/jnlnr/05092
The use of ozone in a high density recirculation system for rotifers
G. Suantika * a gede.suantika 'at' rug.ac.be , P. Dhert a, G. Rombaut b,
J. Vandenberghe c, T. De Wolf d and P. Sorgeloos a
a Laboratory of Aquaculture and Artemia Reference Center, Ghent
University, Rozier 44, B-9000 Ghent, Belgium
b Laboratory of Microbial Ecology and Technology, Ghent University,
Coupure L 653, B-9000 Ghent, Belgium
c Laboratory for Microbiology, Ledeganckstraat 35, B-9000
Ghent, Belgium
d INVE Technologies, NV, Oeverstraat 7, B-9200 Baasrode,
Belgium
Received 4 May 2000; accepted 12 January 2001
Abstract
The use of ozone in the effluent treatment of a closed recirculation
system for rotifers resulted in a significant improvement of rotifer
production and water quality. Compared to a control treatment, the
rotifer culture exposed to ozone did not only support a higher rotifer
biomass (16000 vs. 8000 rotifers ml1), it also allowed a prolongation
of the culture period for 4 days. Compared to a control treatment, the
ammonium levels were reduced by 67%, nitrite levels by 85% and nitrate
levels by 67%. The supplementation of ozone did not affect pH and
dissolved oxygen levels. Besides the positive effect of ozone to the
nitrification process, a better removal of suspended solids was
noticed as well. This resulted in a decreased turbidity and a
reduction of the number of particles in the culture water. The use of
ozone also reduced the number of bacteria in the culture water.
In general terms, it can be stated that supplementation of ozone in a
closed recirculation system for rotifers considerably improves water
quality, ensures stable and longer rotifer culture periods and
controls bacterial proliferation.
Keywords: Brachionus plicatilis; Recirculation; Ozone; Rotifers
*Corresponding author. Tel.: +32-9-264-3754; fax: +32-9-264-4193
===============================================
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124
Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/
| Message 10
Subject: Re: algae
From: "Chris Jeppesen"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 07:58:25 -0700
Jim
Thank you for a great reply. At this point in time I wouldn't say I have a algae problem, only
some algae. I've been getting away with little testing because of my low fish population, but
your admonition to do it more often and record it is order. I'm going to save your post because
I'm always (nomater how often I read or hear) by nitite nitrate.
Thanks
Chris Jeppesen
>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:58:17 -0400 (EDT)
> James Robert Igou Re: algaeReply-To:
aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>
> Interesting idea! However, algae requires very little nitrogen to grow.
>Algal growth occurs in water with far lower nitrogen content then that
>with which we water our plants. Further, algae is present in
>virtually all environments and appears to spread via wind or
>water. Virtually any standing water exposed to some sun will eventually
>develop algal growth. Therefore, you assumption (while it has a good
>logical basis) is flawed.
> I have two questions. Is your algae problem in your culture tanks
>or is it in your beds? Personally, I don't have a significant problem with
>algae in my tanks because my tanks are in a seperate area that only has a
>small amount of artificial light. However, in previous systems I've built
>within greenhouses the tilapia themselves did a good good of algae
>control by eating most of it. This, of course, is not a good solution as
>tilapia that eat significant quantities of algae develop an off-flavor. As
>to problems within the beds and pipes of an aquaponic system I've seen
>very few cases where this was a problem. Algae on the top of a growing
>medium is common in many forms of hydroponics. The algae uses very little
>nutient and rarely penetrates farther than where it can obtain sunlight.
>The biggest problem with algal growth within plant beds is that it
>encourages the development of fungus gnats which are a vector for plant
>pathogens. Algae within pipes can be limited by covering the piping and/or
>by regular disassembly and cleaning. However, in three years of constant
>production the only parts of my system I've ever disassembled for cleaning
>have been the 1" lines I've got feeding each bed.
> A few final questions. Do you think your problem could be due to
>an extreme excess of nitrogen promoting an explosive growth of algae? Do
>you test your tank water for nitrite, nitrate, and ammonia? I keep a
>record of these measurements as an indicator of how well my plant beds are
>funtioning. The bacterial colonies within the beds should, if healthy, be
>converting your culture tank's water ammonia content into nitrite and
>then to nitrate. Plants utilize ammonia directly and nitrate directly. Any
>spike in nitrite levels indicates a problem with your bed's bacterial
>population. Additionally, high ammonia levels are toxic to fish and high
>nitrite levels prevent the fish from obtaining oxygen from the water
>(causing a brown coloration to the gills, stressing the fish, and
>eventually either killing them or encouraging disease). So, the
>question is just how high are your nitrogen levels?
> One thing I've been surprised to learn while using system's based
>on Tom and Paula's designs is how low the real nitrogen requirements are
>for some plants. By carefully selecting what to grow and adjusting how
>much you grow you can lower you TAN levels and reduce the algal growth
>rate as well as promote a healthier environment for your fish. System
>design changes (such as those I've mentioned) can help as well. Finally, I
>can't stress enough the need to take water quality measurements
>and maintain good records of everything you do with your system. These
>records will allow you to analyse your progress and will help you
>uncover areas where your system can be improved. Good luck.
>
> Jim
>
> On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Chris Jeppesen wrote:
>
>> over the last 8 eight months we've had several discustions on or about algae. The one thing
I've done to control it is to cover my irrigation distribution pipes with half of a 1 1/2" abs
black pipe to keep the algae from blocking the holes.
>>
>> however the question keeps coming back to me, what causes it. In my weak little demented
mind it seems like when I have enough good healthy plants growing in the system I don't have an
algae problem. and when I over haul or tear out to many old large plants and have to much area
in seed and seedlings I have an algae problem.
>> So what I'm saying or asking is, is algae manageable simply by manageing are total nitrogen.
>>
>> just foder for thought.
>> Chris Jeppesen
>>
>> > "Thomas Short" "tilapia" , "aquaponics"
Don't through out the gold to save the silverDate: Fri, 7 Sep 2001
00:51:37 -0700
>> >Reply-To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>> >
>> >Like some of you I am new to this. I have been searching the net trying to find a way to
control algae. I came on this site.
>> >
>> > http://www.spirulinasource.com/earthfood.html
>> >
>> >check it out no the top click on "Book Online" after reading it I think maybe the algae may
be worth more than the fish!
>> >Also look at these:
>> >
>> >http://www.spirulinasource.com/microjourdan.html
>> >http://www.spirulinasource.com/microcalamand.html
>> >
>> >Read the book on line or order it from amazon.com it cost about $14
>> >I tried to print it but ran out of paper (LONG!)Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer
download :
>> >
>> ><< msg2.html >>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
| Message 11
Subject: Re: just ignore my pot!!!
From: Carolyn Hoagland
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 10:14:53 -0500
Lou,
Did you mean, just ignore my post??? ;-)
Carolyn
| Message 12
Subject: retention time in inclined plate separators
From: Carolyn Hoagland
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 10:18:19 -0500
Hi Gang,
I wonder if I missed one of the digests, or accidentally deleted it?
Did anyone have any ideas about retention time? Also, how close can
the plates be before the flow of water entrains the particles?
Thanks in advance,
Carolyn
| Message 13
Subject: Re: boiler heat
From: "Brent Bingham"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:25:23 -0700
Many greenhouses through away the rock wool and vermiculite they grow in. It
works well around the poly as insulation. Styro-foam packing is also
discarded at Wal-Mart, Kmart and other stores. Normally we do not insulate
tubing under the floor. It is a good idea to isolate loops off a manifold
so they can be controlled. We also get used 4-6 " plastic pipe from the
mines, it works well as insulation on under ground lines.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "kris book"
Cc:
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: boiler heat
> Brent,
>
> I really like that word, cheapest, if it doesn't end up costing me more
> later.Please tell us more about your ideas for heating with boilers and
> black poly tubing. There is quite a distance between 2-50' greenhouses
> (250'), I plan to put a generator/boiler/compost/vermiculture/mushroom
> building in between. Do you have any ideas on how to best insulate black
> poly tubing buried 4' in the ground(frost line is almost 3' here in So.
> Colorado).
>
> kris
>
| Message 14
Subject: Re: boiler heat
From: "Brent Bingham"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:26:22 -0700
Temperature is the issue! Hydronic zone heating uses a boiler to produce
many different temperatures with boiler water that remains constant. The
boiler as you correctly stated will most likely be 210 F but that is to hot
to run through the system. Mixing valves or tempering valves are used to
keep a safe water temperature in the pex or Poly-X tubing. If 210 F water
were used directly you would burn of kill any thing that came in contact
with it and that is assuming the tubing held up to it. Hydronic floor
heating uses return water and mixes it with the high heat boiler to temper
it so you can walk on the floor. If not, the first few feet of floor would
be over the scald temperature and the rest of the floor would be cold before
the return water got to the thermostat to shut the zone valve.
We do use heat exchangers on some process
heat installations, if the system requires one. We placed a coil of 1" poly
tubing in our 2000 gallon concert tank that is at the top of our system
over 18 years ago. The water that ran through it originally came from an
army surpluses tank engine we used to pump water. We later connected it to a
pile of poly pipe laying under a used piece of poly tarp. That worked for
years until we started using the used oil boilers. We now use both solar and
the used oil boilers. The poly tubing is steel in the bottom of the tank
resting on the bricks used to hold it in place. We run 99 F water through
PVC slats under the new born pigs which were designed as flooring for
farrowing crates. They have expansion plugs in the ends with pipe nipples to
connect the water manifolds. Cool water runs under the sows in the same PVC
slat flooring.
Black poly tubing connects everything in the live stock buildings and the
greenhouses and has for years.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arlos"
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: boiler heat
> Brent,
>
> Do a little research on heat exchange for the layman and try and
> understand the principles.
> Boilers have temp controls so a mixing valve is really not the issue. I
> would like Steven to post the size of tank,energy costs(pump), volume of
> gas or oil used, cost per therm of fuel, or watt, pump size, total length
of
> poly and what diameter and record temperatures, heat rise and hours of
> operation and photos if possible
> At the hobby level there is a lot of latitude for playing with ideas.
This
> is fine but industry can't afford to SWAG (scientific wild assed guess). I
> look at cost by lifecycle engineering or cost of combining design
> engineering, material. installation ,O&M and service life.
> You are right, cheap is good but not at the expense of high operating
> costs
If a 1000' of poly pipe costs say $45. How much would it cost to
push
> water through a 1' diameter poly tube coil in a tank, looking at the cost
> per watt of the pump and cost per BTU of fuel to heat the boiler. What
size
> pump is need, what is the friction loss, coefficiency? More importantly
> what's the heat exchnage?
> Manufactures and suppliers can supply info concerning heat/ pressure
> ,Including the most recent question about insulation below a frost line.
> typically that would be in a dual wall pipe specific to the
application
not
> running pipe with foam insulation round it
.Is it more economical to have
a
> heat system in each building or centralize the heating? It helps to do the
> math before starting a project.
>
> Arlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brent Bingham
> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
> Date: Monday, September 03, 2001 5:15 PM
> Subject: Re: boiler heat
>
>
> >I believe every thing you say BUT , You can put one simple mixing valve
in
> >the line from the boiler and bring down the heat below 210 . You can buy
> >thousands of feet of poly for the price of the cheapest heat exchanger.
The
> >water going through the heat exchanger must be filtered or it will foul
it
> >plugged shut. Many times the cheapest and simplest KISS system is best.
> What
> >is the total cost of the system you propose?
> >Brent
> >PS
> >The federal prison out our way just signed bids on there new 12 mile 12"
> >water line. It is 100% bell end PVC. No HDPE.
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Arlos"
> >
> >Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 11:24 AM
> >Subject: Re: boiler heat
> >
> >
> >> Brent,
> >>
> >> Plastic does not have very good thermo transfer property
> >snip
> >
> >
>
>
| Message 15
Subject: Re: heat exchangers and collectors
From: "Brent Bingham"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:30:00 -0700
The Israelis started making solar collectors out of used truck radiators
almost 20 years ago. As solar radiation hits something it reflects or
radiates off. They found the wavy fins in a radiator trap solar heat. They
first put glass over them then they started making them from the ground up.
We have heated the small guest house at the ranch with there early radiator
idea for over 12 years. It works very well. All you need is a box with
insulation on the bottom and a glass or solar cover. It is easy to plumb
using radiator hose and copper. Used water heaters provide the storage. A
heat exchanger would be recommended in this type set up so you can use
propylene glycol in the out side part of the system.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Hoagland"
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 8:35 AM
Subject: heat exchangers and collectors
> >Arlos wrote:
> >A radiator in a car has enormous surface area as does
> >a transformer heat sink (lots of fins) both are designed
> >for efficiency of heat dispersal.
>
> So if someone is looking for an inexpensive heat exchanger (or
> collection device for concentrated solar rays, could they use a junked
> radiator that has been cleaned/flushed out? How does its ability to
> withstand the pressure compare with a heat exchanger designed for
> boiler use? Does the outside surface of a car or trunk radiator made
> of materials that could contaminate the fish water?
>
> Carolyn
>
| Message 16
Subject: Re: heat exchangers and collectors
From: "Brent Bingham"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:50:03 -0700
We are not comparing apples to apples. There are several types of systems
and we may not be talking about the same thing. Isolated domestic water
systems must use a heat exchanger or two to keep the liquid in the solar
collectors away from the drinking water. This same method is used to heat
fish tanks if the materials are incompatible. Many systems are already
pumping water for one reason or another. What piping are you using? We have
a 5000 gallon concrete tank with poly cast in the walls and bottom that
heats it to 80 F.
If you are moving water you can heat or cool it almost free using a little
imagination. We use slip joint poly a lot. It is; cheep, easy to use, easy
to fix, and does not require any special equipment to work with. Arlos is
correct in that it is not as good a conducting heat as say copper or
aluminum BUT it works well for the intended purpose. Case in point;
The steal line that ran drinking water to the ranch and to the live stock
had so many leaks we had to replace it. It was hooked up and laid out on top
of the ground until we could trench it in. 500' of the 2" was exposed to
the sun. We noticed the cattle were coming up to drink and just standing
there not drinking. The water leaking on one row of the hay was making the
hay fall over. It was over 150 F as it came out the end of the pipe. It
would raze blisters on your skin. You can do a lot with 150 F water!
We spray a solution which contains copper on our cotton. Not all copper is
created equal and we must use reason in all we do. It serves no useful
purpose to get mad if someone has
a divergent view. Some one once said there are " a lot of ways to skin a
cat ", some may be better than others, but not always wrong.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mick"
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: heat exchangers and collectors
>
>
> gerry magnuson wrote:
>
> > gee bruce, does that mean all lines that run water through a home is no
> > good? that all copper lines running propane are no good?
> > >
> > -
>
> I'm no chemist but I can tell you almost all the fish in my small koi pond
died
> this morning. These fish have lived thru just about everything for the
last
> five years and were getting quite large. The only thing that had changed
in
> this ornamental pond was a metal screen we'd added. I've made sure all
the
> parts for our tilapia operation were plastic but I'd missed seeing the
screen on
> the goldfish pond installed. As soon as we got the remaining goldfish out
of
> that pond and into fresh water, they revived.
>
> I can only assume that something in the metal was deadly to the fish. Do
as you
> wish about adding metal parts to the system, but this isn't the only place
I've
> read with warnings of the dangers of it.
>
> Mick
>
>
>
| Message 17
Subject: Re: boiler heat
From: kris book
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:59:50 -0600
Brent,
Thanks, you are a plethora of good information. Do you use any special
kind of primer and cement(glue) to make the connections with the poly
pipe? I've got a lot of used 4" pvc pipe, do you think that the energy
necessary to pump water through this size pipe negates its usefulness as
a floor heater for our greenhouses.
kris
| Message 18
Subject: Re: boiler heat
From: "Brent Bingham"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:46:14 -0700
The poly we use has push together sleeve and hose clamps no glue or sealers.
It comes
in large roles and is rated by the psi it will allow.
We went to a demonstration of an in floor heat system that World Energy put
on.
They placed 14" pvc pipe in the fill under a auto shop floor and a
greenhouse, to prove
a point. They used a single 1/8 th hp grundfros pump to heat the 3000 foot
shop
with solar hot water. The large pipe stored the heat and released it
slowley up through
the floor.They used no controles other that a solar eye to turn on the pump
when the
sun came up. They had a boiler as back up for days with out solar but they
had
millions of Btu,s stored for a rainy day under the floor so it almost never
came on.
Just because you have 4" pipe you do not need to use a 4" pump. run the pipe
in
single runs with a manifold at each end. Leave yourself a way to get to each
end with
a valve on each end. If you ever get a problem you can shut off the problem
section
and fix it when you have time, leaving the system in operation. We drove a
stake into the
pipe in one of the greenhouses and had to dig it up right then.
Brent
----- Original Message -----
From: "kris book"
Cc:
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: boiler heat
> Brent,
>
> Thanks, you are a plethora of good information. Do you use any special
> kind of primer and cement(glue) to make the connections with the poly
> pipe? I've got a lot of used 4" pvc pipe, do you think that the energy
> necessary to pump water through this size pipe negates its usefulness as
> a floor heater for our greenhouses.
>
> kris
>
| Message 19
Subject: Re: Please Help
From: "Louis N. Scerbo"
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 21:08:01 -0400
WOW!!!!!
Thank you all for the information.
As you can imagine this will take some time to absorb and put into practice.
I will advise as to success as I go.
Thanks again,
Lou
Bruce Schreiber wrote:
>Lou after a long day I have to get some sleep to be up by 3:30am for
>another 19hr. day tomorrow if you can wait a few days I will help you if
>some one else has not yet ok
> Bruce
>
>
| Message 20
Subject: Re: Please Help
From: "Louis N. Scerbo"
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 21:14:11 -0400
--000208070107030103080005
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thomas,
I tried this link without result. Please advise
Thomas Short wrote:
> OOPS!! I left out a "/" try this
>
>
>
> http://www.ns.net/~bennu/bkyd/green.html
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Thomas Short
>
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:49 PM
>
> To: aquaponics
>
> Subject: Re: Please Help
>
>
>
> Ok for those of you that are just starting and looking for a place
> to put a small setup. Check out this web site. It will show you to
> make a Small Greenhouse for around $100 that you can use for the
> first year or two.
>
>
>
> http://www.ns.net~bennu/bkyd/green.html
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Louis N. Scerbo
>
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:24 AM
>
> To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
>
> Subject: Re: Please Help
>
>
>
>
> >> I would like to try to set up a system in my basement.
> The reason I
> >> want to do it in my basement is I feel even though it will
> cost me much
> >> more money for Lighting ie: metal halide and high pressure
> sodium, as a
> >> first system it will be cheaper than a greenhouse with heating.
> >> I live in Northeastern Pennsylvania so I'd need supplemental
> >> lighting in the winter anyway.
> >> I plan a system with a 300 gal. round tank, PolyTank,
> PT-6530, with
> >> one each 1000W metal halide and 1000W high pressure sodium.
> >> How many fish and PD-4902 PolyTank trays should I use?
> >> What about the humidity issue?
> >>
> >> Thank you all in advance for your help,
> >> Lou
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
>
>
>
>
> Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
>
--000208070107030103080005
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thomas,
I tried this link without result. Please advise
Thomas Short wrote:
OOPS!! I left out a "/" try this
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Short
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:49 PM
To: aquaponics
Subject: Re: Please Help
Ok for those of you that are just starting and looking for a place
to put a small setup. Check out this web site. It will show you to make a
Small Greenhouse for around $100 that you can use for the first year or two.
----- Original Message -----
From: Louis N. Scerbo
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: Please Help
>> I would like to try to set up a system in my basement. The
reason
I
>> want to do it in my basement is I feel even though it will cost
me much
>> more money for Lighting ie: metal halide and high pressure sodium,
as a
>> first system it will be cheaper than a greenhouse with heating.
>> I live in Northeastern Pennsylvania so I'd need supplemental
>> lighting in the winter anyway.
>> I plan a system with a 300 gal. round tank, PolyTank, PT-6530,
with
>> one each 1000W metal halide and 1000W high pressure sodium.
>> How many fish and PD-4902 PolyTank trays should I use?
>> What about the humidity issue?
>>
>> Thank you all in advance for your help,
>> Lou
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
--000208070107030103080005--
| Message 21
Subject: Re: Please Help
From: "Thomas Short"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:45:35 -0700
=_NextPart_001_0001_01C137CD.48114800
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't know what happened I just click on it and it didn't work either S=
o I cut and pasted it in and it did work ?? Try this http://www.ns.net/~b=
ennu/bkyd/green.html =20
=20
----- Original Message -----
From: Louis N. Scerbo
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 6:40 PM
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Subject: Re: Please Help
=20
Thomas,
I tried this link without result. Please advise
Thomas Short wrote:
OOPS!! I left out a "/" try this
=20
http://www.ns.net/~bennu/bkyd/green.html =20
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Short
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:49 PM
To: aquaponics
Subject: Re: Please Help
=20
Ok for those of you that are just starting and looking for a place to put=
a small setup. Check out this web site. It will show you to make a Small=
Greenhouse for around $100 that you can use for the first year or two.
=20
http://www.ns.net~bennu/bkyd/green.html =20
=20
----- Original Message -----
From: Louis N. Scerbo
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:24 AM
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Subject: Re: Please Help
=20
>> I would like to try to set up a system in my basement. The reason =
I
>> want to do it in my basement is I feel even though it will cost me muc=
h
>> more money for Lighting ie: metal halide and high pressure sodium, as=
a
>> first system it will be cheaper than a greenhouse with heating.
>> I live in Northeastern Pennsylvania so I'd need supplemental
>> lighting in the winter anyway.
>> I plan a system with a 300 gal. round tank, PolyTank, PT-6530, with
>> one each 1000W metal halide and 1000W high pressure sodium.
>> How many fish and PD-4902 PolyTank trays should I use?
>> What about the humidity issue?
>>
>> Thank you all in advance for your help,
>> Lou
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c=
om =20
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c=
om Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.m=
sn.com
=_NextPart_001_0001_01C137CD.48114800
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<=
DIV> =
----- Original Message ----- From: Louis N. Scerbo Sent: Frid=
ay, September 07, 2001 6:40 PM T=
o: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com Su=
bject: Re: Please Help Thomas,
I tried this=
link without result. Please advise
Thomas Short wrote:
=
OOPS!! I left out a "/" try this =
----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Short =
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:49 PM To: aquaponics Subject: Re: Please Help =
; Ok for those of you that are just starting and looking for a=
place to put a small setup. Check out this web site. It will show you to=
make a Small Greenhouse for around $100 that you can use for the first y=
ear or two. =
----- Original Message ----- From: Louis N. Scerbo Sent:=
Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:24 AM Subject: Re: Please Help &n=
bsp;
>> I would like to try to set=
up a system in my basement. The reason I
>> want to do it in my=
basement is I feel even though it will cost me much
>> more mon=
ey for Lighting ie: metal halide and high pressure sodium, as a
=
>> first system it will be cheaper than a greenhouse with heating.<=
BR>>> I live in Northeastern Pennsylvania so I'd =
need supplemental
>> lighting in the winter anyway.
>>&=
nbsp; I plan a system with a 300 gal. round tank, PolyTank, P=
T-6530, with
>> one each 1000W metal halide and 1000W high press=
ure sodium.
>> How many fish and PD-4902=
PolyTank trays should I use?
>> What about th=
e humidity issue?
>>
>> Thank you all in advance for yo=
ur help,
>> Lou
>>
>
>
> ____________=
_____________________________________________________
> Get your FR=
EE download of MSN Explorer at
> =
>
>
Get mo=
re from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
<=
HR> Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
Get more from the Web. FREE M=
SN Explorer download : http://explore=
r.msn.com
=_NextPart_001_0001_01C137CD.48114800--
| Message 22
Subject: Re: Please Help
From: "Thomas Short"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:49:47 -0700
=_NextPart_001_0002_01C137CD.DE024A80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I guess that you will have to cut and past it in or type it in there must=
be something wrong with my E-mail. Lets try again!
http://www.ns.net/~bennu/bkyd/green.html =20
=20
----- Original Message -----
From: Louis N. Scerbo
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 6:40 PM
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Subject: Re: Please Help
=20
Thomas,
I tried this link without result. Please advise
Thomas Short wrote:
OOPS!! I left out a "/" try this
=20
http://www.ns.net/~bennu/bkyd/green.html =20
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Short
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:49 PM
To: aquaponics
Subject: Re: Please Help
=20
Ok for those of you that are just starting and looking for a place to put=
a small setup. Check out this web site. It will show you to make a Small=
Greenhouse for around $100 that you can use for the first year or two.
=20
http://www.ns.net~bennu/bkyd/green.html =20
=20
----- Original Message -----
From: Louis N. Scerbo
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:24 AM
To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com
Subject: Re: Please Help
=20
>> I would like to try to set up a system in my basement. The reason =
I
>> want to do it in my basement is I feel even though it will cost me muc=
h
>> more money for Lighting ie: metal halide and high pressure sodium, as=
a
>> first system it will be cheaper than a greenhouse with heating.
>> I live in Northeastern Pennsylvania so I'd need supplemental
>> lighting in the winter anyway.
>> I plan a system with a 300 gal. round tank, PolyTank, PT-6530, with
>> one each 1000W metal halide and 1000W high pressure sodium.
>> How many fish and PD-4902 PolyTank trays should I use?
>> What about the humidity issue?
>>
>> Thank you all in advance for your help,
>> Lou
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c=
om =20
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c=
om Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.m=
sn.com
=_NextPart_001_0002_01C137CD.DE024A80
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I guess that y=
ou will have to cut and past it in or type it in there must be something =
wrong with my E-mail. Lets try again! ----- Original Message ---=
-- From: Louis N. Scerbo =
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 6:40 PM To: aquaponics 'at' townsqr.com Subject: Re: Please Help Thomas,I tried this link without result. Please advise
Thomas Short wro=
te:
OOPS!! I left out a "/" try this ----- Original Message -----<=
/DIV> From: Thoma=
s Short Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:49 PM To: aquaponics Subject: Re: Please Help Ok for those of you that are just starting an=
d looking for a place to put a small setup. Check out this web site. It w=
ill show you to make a Small Greenhouse for around $100 that you can use =
for the first year or two. ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis N. Scerbo Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:24 AM Subject: Re: Please Hel=
p >> I would like to t=
ry to set up a system in my basement. The reason I >> want=
to do it in my basement is I feel even though it will cost me much &g=
t;> more money for Lighting ie: metal halide and high pressure s=
odium, as a >> first system it will be cheaper than a greenhouse=
with heating. >> I live in Northeastern Penns=
ylvania so I'd need supplemental >> lighting in the winter anywa=
y. >> I plan a system with a 300 gal. round ta=
nk, PolyTank, PT-6530, with >> one each 1000W metal halide and 1=
000W high pressure sodium. >> How many fish an=
d PD-4902 PolyTank trays should I use? >> =
; What about the humidity issue? >> >> Thank you all in=
advance for your help, >> Lou >> > > &g=
t; &=
gt; > http://explorer.m=
sn.com/intl.asp> >
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
Get more from t=
he Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
=_NextPart_001_0002_01C137CD.DE024A80--
| Message 23
Subject: Copper and Oil and Our Lovely OPEC Friends
From: "TGTX"
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:49:26 -0500
Howdy folks.
Gonna rip some yarn this evening if I can.
Ripping Yarns
that's the ticket. Can you spell Seg-way? S-E-G-U-E?
Just thought I would say that I don't worry about a little bit of copper
pipe used in the mass fish culture systems that I know about
.that being
real world aquaculture with thousands or millions of gallons of water, not
tiny aquarium cultures
especially in waters that have a reasonable
degree of hardness.
If you have a 1000 gallon fish tank circulating through tons of gravel, some
of which is calcium and magnesium carbonate, and the pH of the culture water
is NOT acidic, ie, the pH is greater than 6.9, then a few feet of copper
tubing for heat exchange does not worry me, and I cannot imagine why it
would worry anyone else
.Especially since the 5 lbs of fish food you are
throwing at the 500 pounds of live critters every day has cupric oxide or
some other copper additive as part of the feed ingredients FOR THE
NUTRITIONAL REQUIREMENTS OF THE FISH, for crying out loud. Remember also
that the copper tubing for heat exchange will be coated with a bacterial
slime. Dont flame me on that point, yes I know the bugs could pump the Cu
to outside the slime layer. But the point is that it ain't so cut and
dried. It's complicated possibly beyond prediction, but we can yammer on
about it endlessly, no doubt.
In order to have a 96 hour lethal concentration dose of copper in solution
that might kill 50% of some sensitive species of test organisms, you might
have to have about 250 ppb free Cu ions in solution, which pretty much
requires pH levels less than 8, me thinks off the top of me head
.
That is a level which is not acutely toxicity but chronically toxic
in
other words it takes about a quarter of a ppm of Cu ions in free solution
which is pretty gosh darn high for hard water systems, and the higher the
hardness of the water (that is, the more carbonate around the joint) the
more copper it takes to be toxic to aquatic organisms for what, about a week
or so of exposure? . I eat 2 milligrams or so of copper per day just from
my vitamin pill. I probably get 4 or 5 times that from my diet, so figure a
200lb Texan Irish German Cherokee Go-Rilla such as myself gets at least 10
to 20 milligrams of copper a day, Thank God, or I might otherwise suffer
Copper deficiency.
Bacteria in the water and in the sediments can change all that copper
tubing/copper ion availability assertion
as you guys and gals may suspect
from my extensive, if not coherent, bacterial ponderings
so it aint so
neat and tidy and test tube like as the academic toxicologists and chemical
engineers might like us to believe and accept on faith
And yes, like an aquarium, even a BIG recirculation system that accumulates
small amounts of copper or any other nutrient over very long periods of time
without water exchange or permanent "sinks" removing said element (copper is
a nutrient, as is zinc, selenium, boron, etc, all of which can be toxic to
varying degrees at higher concentrations) could result in problems, no
doubt. Having said that, however, I still don't worry too much about tiny
amounts of copper. I just dont. It's probably that whole beetle-browed,
walking on my knuckles, pioneer, cowboy kinda thing that throws many
unfortunately self-disadvantaged members of our species into frothing rages
of excessive protest or paroxysms of fear and loathing
unnecessarily,
IMHO.
What I find interesting is that copper is an acceptable pest control agent
in "organically certified" agriculture, which is quite distinct, in my
lexicon, from "organic agriculture".
Bordeaux mixture is A.O.K. to use on trees, etc, according to the Mellow
Berkenstock Cadres that Visualize Whorled Peas. I have been, and kinda
still am, among that cadre, with large caveats and exceptions
.I think I
lost my Faux Berkenstocks or wore them out
.Replaced them with River
Sandals equipped with Velcro
Well, the thing is that, workers in grape vineyards that spray Bordeaux
mixture can experience very long term chronic toxicity due to copper.
Vineyard sprayers can experience liver disease after 3 to 15 years of
exposure to copper sulfate solution in Bordeaux mixture. So, who, if not
the guardians of the planet, self-appointed, and amply represented by, the
organic activists, will stop the madness of Copper? We all know that the
only world that is worth living in is one that is absolutely devoid of risk,
right? Somebody say Amen, brother.
This reminds me of the notion that "Dormant Oil Spray" has been written into
some of the organic certification standards as an acceptable material to use
in "organically certified" agriculture. So the same people that demonize
the petroleum companies, for their mere existence, will pay premium prices
for "organically certified" fruit, whose trees may be "acceptibly" sprayed
with "harsh" (another politically loaded adjective) petroleum hydrocarbons
at thousands
.yes thousands
of times the concentrations
. that would
otherwise take those demonizers to the streets in rabid protest
heh,heh, heh
.wake up and smell the coffee
and if it is from Vietnam,
then perhaps it shouldn't be purchased and consumed
And these same demonizers would never so demonize Libya or the other thieves
that nationalized, ie, stole, the oil industry infrastructure from
legitimate oil companies that were already pouring millions into the
God-forsaken hell-hole countries that petroleum was discovered in and
developed, by means of blood, sweat, tears, and great risk.
And that nationalization, nay, theft, by government (read that State Mafias)
made those aforesaid "Nuevo-Riche" thieves so abominably wealthy (to be
consistent we must say "abominably wealthy", right? because, after all,
profits are "obscene" if you follow the pretzel logic of the, uh, mainstream
pundits and bon vivants, eh?) in the aftermath of their sordid, squalid
lives, which consisted, in large part, of swatting flies in mud huts while
cursing those that did not live such lives, that they were, and are now
evermoreso, able to fund nuclear warfare proliferation, and random global
terrorism, while still denoucing as oppressors those that made them so
unjustifiably rich.
Yep. Those are the lovely friends that we have. Thank you so very much.
Have a great weekend.
Ted
Copper Conductor and Petroleum Lubricant.
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